Why do the direwolves hate Tyrion?

[East of the Wood]

There are fans out there that think tyrion is a Targ??? WTF? That's the most ridiculus theory I've ever heard! Can someone direct me to a thread that explains this theory? It's sure to give me a right aul good laugh.

-Greatjon was trying to hit/kill Robb at the time. Grey Wind was just protecting his master.

When and why did that happen? I can't remember that part.

[Baleraxar]

Both Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark were loyal to the Starks, at least at first.

Well, yeah, exactly. They can't see the future, so they had no beef with those guys. That's my point.

It's possible that Summer remembers Bran's fall even though Bran himself doesn't, due to their connection. And if he was able to pick up from Bran that Tyrion was Jaime's brother, that would explain why he was hostile even though Bran wasn't. I think that makes more sense than clairvoyant wolves attacking people who never end up doing anything anyway. And it still involves magic.

There are fans out there that think tyrion is a Targ??? WTF? That's the most ridiculus theory I've ever heard! Can someone direct me to a thread that explains this theory? It's sure to give me a right aul good laugh.

It's a surprisingly popular and enduring theory. I goes something like:

1.) Tyrion likes dragons

2.) Tywin says that Tyrion isn't his son

3.) Tyrion's hair is lighter than his siblings'

Therefore Tyrion is a Targaryen.

I think it's all wishful thinking from Tyrion fans. And honestly, it destroys Tyrion's whole character arc. But it has a lot of supporters for being as crackpot as it is.

[AquariumDrinker]

Well Grey Wind did snarl and growl at one of the Westerlings and Catelyn told Robb to send him away. The Westerlings did end up betraying Robb so the direwolves may have the ability to sense ill intent beyond just how the Stark children feel.

Robb subconsciously knew.

Shaggy Dog bit Luwin, why?

So while some prefer to argue that events in ASOIAF are far more random and mundane than a fantasy setting would warrant, I am in the opposite camp, and think it is clear that the mystical aspects to the story are far more significant than some like to believe.

Being able to read and respond to the subconscious emotions and thoughts of the kids that the wolves are paired with is pretty mystical in my book. I have seen no other connection like the ones between the kids and the wolves in the real world.

***just to keep with the constant stream of edits I am adding, lets look at the attacks on Tyrion.

Tyrion is mercilessly taunting Jon and then Ghost attacks when Jon gets angry... first sign of the connection.. the mystical one.

The Lannisters are thought to have been behind the attack on bran, then Tyrion shows up... there is a ton of barely restrained hostility towards Tyrion, then the wolves attack... That was another indicator that there may be some sort of mystical connection between the wolves and the kids. Its almost like they can control them, but haven't learned how yet.

[corbon]

There are fans out there that think tyrion is a Targ??? WTF? That's the most ridiculus theory I've ever heard! Can someone direct me to a thread that explains this theory? It's sure to give me a right aul good laugh.

There are a few threads around.

One of the better posts explaining it.

Though I'm not a strong supporter of Tyrion Targaryen (TT), I have to disagree with your analysis of the theory.

It is incongruous behavior and other evidential hints that led some to conjecture TT. I can't remember the contexts or details for the following items, but I do recall that each provides a slight hint about TT:

**Tyrion is the only non-Targ we know that has dragon dreams.

**Aerys II honored Tywin by making him his Hand, yet Tywin deeply hated Aerys. "Stealing" Jaime for the Kingsguard might be the cause, but the effect would be multiplied if Tywin suspected Tyrion - his only remaining heir due to the "theft" - was Aerys' bastard.

**Tywin makes three different statements about his relationship to Tyrion: "because you're my son"; "you're not my son"; and, most interestingly, "because I can't prove you're not my son".

**The mismatched eyes seem, in the Martin-verse of ASOIAF, to hint at Targaryen bastardy.

**Tywin's incredible antipathy toward Tyrion is not the attitude of a father toward his son: putting him on the side of the Green Fork battle he expected to be overwhelmed, having a company of his men gang-rape Tysha, a woman he knew to be Tyrion's chosen wife; making no effort to either protect Tyrion from being tried for Joffery's death, or to seriously consider the possibility that he might not be guilty; and refusing to permit Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock.

The behaviors and acts are anomalous, which leads to questions and conjectures. Sure, one can accept the proffered explanation that Tywin hates Tyrion because he caused the death of Joanna. But there is a most probably false explanation for Jon's parentage, as well - Wylla and Ned. Both explanations are unsatisfying: Tywin doesn't seem either sufficiently sentimental or adequately irrational to hate Tyrion so deeply for the death of Joanna, which Tyrion was absolutely unable to prevent. Wylla/Ned is unlikely for various reasons.

I believe that Tywin's strongest motivation was to avoid being laughed at, as Joanna says in Jaime's dream: "The thing he [Tywin] really can't stand is to be laughed at." Moreover, he had the entire Reynes clan massacred because Lord Reyne's insubordination caused people to laugh at Tywin's father. Furthermore, the depth of Tywin's hate for Tyrion seems to call for a deeper animus than merely holding a child guilty for the death of his mother in childbirth. If Tywin strongly suspected Tyrion was Aerys' bastard, then he is both fearful of being laughed at, and hateful of Tyrion's true family. Perhaps Joanna admitted (in view of Tyrion's appearance) that she'd been raped by Aerys. On the one hand, it would be the ultimate humiliation if anybody found out he'd been cuckolded; and on the other, he'd hate Tyrion just for being from Aerys. I suppose he wasn't absolutely positive Tyrion was indeed Aerys' bastard; even so, I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin killed Joanna to prevent her from ever admitting the rape to anyone else. Or perhaps she really did die in childbirth. Either way, if Tywin suspected, but could not prove, that Tyrion was Aerys' bastard, he'd have to treat Tyrion as a Lannister to avoid people suspecting that he had been cuckolded.

Wild conjecture? Of course. But Tywin's anomalous behavior and statements w/r/t Tyrion, and Tyrion's anomalous characteristics, suggest something is not as it seems. That TT would be "convenient" for the three heads of the dragon is, itself, a modest reason to consider the possibility.

My point is that Tywin acts very much as though he deeply hates Tyrion; given his deep commitment to the Lannister family, in combination with his varying pronouncements about Tyrion's paternity, this is NOT consistent with him believing Tyrion is his son. But any admission that Tyrion is NOT his son would be an admission that he was cuckolded. Tywin would ruthlessly quash any conjecture that Tyrion is not his son, which is one important reason that we never have, and never will, hear that conjecture by book characters. I believe his fear of being seen as a cuckold is so great that he would even have killed Joanna to avoid people finding that out.

His need to appear to believe that Tyrion is is his son, coupled with his suspicion that he is not his son, would create exactly the sort of extremely conflicted, contradictory attitude that Tywin has toward Tyrion (hated person, respected Lannister scion), and would particularly explain Tywin's refusal to allow Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock. If Tywin merely hated Tyrion he could at least console himself that the Rock would eventually go to Tyrion's children, Tywin's grandchildren. But if Tyrion is Aerys' bastard then the Lannisters would be losing Casterly Rock entirely.

Agreed. Still, I find it entertaining to consider the many ways that GRRM might be setting us up for surprises, a la the Hound, Brienne, the survival of Bran and Rickon, etc., etc. We may be unlikely to guess precisely what George has chosen to make canon, but we can be sure that it will often NOT be the most obvious. This goes for matters of the past (Ashara, Jon's parents, Tyrion's parents, LF's acts) as well as the future.

Edit to correct spelling.

I'm also in the 'probably not true, but it isn't as ridiculous as many make out" camp.

In particular, I think AAF's post above perfectly captures the Twyin/Tyrion relationships and interactions.

Additional potential 'clues' in the texts (the mismatched eyes is meaningless BTW, hence I added the strikethrough):

Tyrion's hair is 'white-blond' whereas the rest of the Lannister's are golden blonde. The Targ special hair colour is of course basically white (silver).

Aside from the dragon dreams, Tyrion has always been interested in Dragons and studied them (he may be the world's foremost authority, or at least Westeros').

He likes his bacon burned black. :D

But mostly it's just people wanting him to be a head of the dragon (even though they need not be targs, and even though the three heads might just be the three dragons).

[DurararaFTW]

But mostly it's just people wanting him to be a head of the dragon (even though they need not be targs, and even though the three heads might just be the three dragons).

What do you mean, they don't have to be Targaryan??? Aegon says he cannot be one of the heads anymore, he would be if he werent dying, being Targaryen and all but now Dany has to fill his place, again being Targaryen and all. he says Stannis won't suffice, because he's not quite Targaryen enough. Dany, Jon and they're gonna cough up a third head somewhere. I agree that Tyrion actually not being Tywin'son wouldn't ruin their dynamic and character arc but it's gonna somebody.

[oba]

What do you mean, they don't have to be Targaryan???

Martin has said that the three heads don't all have to be Targaryens.

[Errant Bard]

nvm

[Baleraxar]

Tyrion's hair is 'white-blond' whereas the rest of the Lannister's are golden blonde. The Targ special hair colour is of course basically white (silver).

Correction: Tommen's hair is also described as white or ash-blonde.

The biggest problem i have with the theory (that is, the biggest factual problem, rather than all the reasons I think it's bad storytelling) is that it doesn't scan with Cersei's recollections in AFFC. Cersei doesn't meet Rhaegar until she's ten years old--that's a couple years after Tyrion's birth. From that we can reasonably deduce that Cersei had never been to King's Landing by that point. That indicates that Joanna wasn't in King's Landing much either after the birth of the Twins; she doesn't seem to have been an absentee mother, and it would be very strange for her to go gallivanting off to the other side of the Kingdom without her children. And since Tywin was already scheming to marry Cersei to Rhaegar (and Joanna was presumably in on that scheme) there would be every reason to take her along.

That leaves the possibility that Aerys came to the Rock at the appropriate time, however when he does come to the West Tywin makes a point of throwing a grand tourney to welcome him. That indicates that it wasn't a very common occurrence. Also, there's no reason why Rhaegar wouldn't have tagged along; he frequently competed in tourneys, and, again, Tywin would probably try really hard to get him there because of his marriage plans. If, for some reason, Aerys showed up without Rheagar, or Joanna went to King's Landing without Cersei, that seems like something that might be mentioned. Wouldn't Cersei remember her disappointment at missing such a chance to meet her prince? It's still possible that it happened, but it seems like uncharacteristically sloppy writing on GRRM's part to pass up possible foreshadowing. Compare it to all the hints at R + L = J and it looks really unsatisfactory.

Finally, Tywin was still trying to marry Cersi and Rhaegar for a few years after Tyrion was born, and Tywin shows no sign particular dissatisfaction with Aerys at that point. The start of his anger seems to be Aerys rejecting the proposal and insulting Tywin ("Do you marry your servants?") Though honestly, I don't see how you can find the idea that Tywin's resignation as Hand was due to Tyrion's secret parentage convincing. He didn't quit until seven years after Tyrion was born. Talk about a delayed reaction.

[limbstan]

I don't think the TT is "crackpot" at all. There are many things that point toward him being a Targ bastard. A lot of them have already been expunged here, but besides his dwarfism, hair, dragon dreams, Tywin's hatred of him, etc. I think the biggest reason to believe this theory is because it would free Tyrion of the stigma and obvious bad omen that comes with being a kinslayer. If Tywin isn't his father, he can't be a kinslayer and therefore isn't doomed.

[Xenophon]

I'm re-reading AGOT and noticed this time around that the direwolves really do not like Tyrion at all. What do you think the significance is?

Halfman = half the meat

[Dragonfish]

I don't think the TT is "crackpot" at all. There are many things that point toward him being a Targ bastard. A lot of them have already been expunged here, but besides his dwarfism, hair, dragon dreams, Tywin's hatred of him, etc. I think the biggest reason to believe this theory is because it would free Tyrion of the stigma and obvious bad omen that comes with being a kinslayer. If Tywin isn't his father, he can't be a kinslayer and therefore isn't doomed.

-Remind me, what does Tyrion's dwarfism have to do with being a Targ?

-The dragon dreams comment is a problematic argument, because nowhere is it established that all Targs have dragon dreams, or that all people who have dragon dreams are Targs. In fact, if R+L=J, then it is certainly not true that all Targs have dragon dreams because Jon doesn't have them. And even if you did prove that all Targs have dragon dreams, that doesn't prove that all people who have dragon dreams are Targs. Those people who try to prove this latter point run up against the fact that Tyrion has dragon dreams, but then try to explain it away by saying he must be a Targ as well. This argument clearly fails, because it attempts to prove its premise by sneaking in its conclusion.

The fact is, Tyrion's dragon dreams can be easily explained by his fascination with dragons. Not all dreams must have mystical significance in the story.

-Tywin's hatred of Tyrion is satisfyingly explained by the fact that 1) Tyrion "killed" the woman he loved in childbirth (this is irrational, to be sure, but nothing says his hatred has to have a rational reason) and 2) Tyrion being a dwarf gives people something to mock his family for, and as others have said, Tywin cannot abide people laughing at him or his family. So, as you can see, there's no need for a "Tyrion is a Targ" theory to explain Tywin's hatred.

-As for your comment about wanting Tyrion to be a Targ so he's no longer a kinslayer, well, technically he'd be a kinslayer no matter what, because Joanna is his mother and Tywin is Joanna's cousin. Unless, of course, killing your cousin isn't considered kinslaying, which is possible.

[Bradley]

If Tywin thought Tyrion wasn't his son I don't see what would have stopped him from pulling a Randyll Tarly and having him "taken care of". Oberyn says in his story that everyone thought he was going to die from complications at birth anyway, so he could have gotten away with it easily.

And like Bale said, why would he quit over Jaime joining the Kingsguard instead of Aerys raping his beloved wife and then indirectly killing her via childbirth?

[Lord Godric]

Why did the wolves not growl at Bolton? Who knows. Maybe they did, but it happend offscreen. Maybe Bolton's betrayal was not as pre ordained as the Lannister/Stark conflict. Maybe the Old Gods are divided and Bolton worships a different group of them who offered him some protection. Maybe the wolves had a bad day.

Sorry, not buying this. For a few reasons: the first, something like a prophetic growling at or attack of Roose Bolton would not happen "off-screen" if there was to be foreshadowing in the knowledge of the Wolf-Gods it would be shown on page, otherwise what is the point? Second, The Old Gods missed the fact that Roose Bolton would single-handedly kill Robb, but picked up on the fact that Tyrion is a Lannister, and Joffrey Lannister would betray Ned? That is more than a bit of a stretch in logic.

[Lord Godric]

I don't think the TT is "crackpot" at all. There are many things that point toward him being a Targ bastard. A lot of them have already been expunged here, but besides his dwarfism, hair, dragon dreams, Tywin's hatred of him, etc. I think the biggest reason to believe this theory is because it would free Tyrion of the stigma and obvious bad omen that comes with being a kinslayer. If Tywin isn't his father, he can't be a kinslayer and therefore isn't doomed.

I don't follow the logic. Even if Tyrion is secretly some Targaryen, how would he be freed of the stigma of being a kinslayer? Everyone who knows him thinks he is a Lannister, and thus his slaying of Tywin is kinslaying.

Also, what about Tyrion's hair? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't he Lannister blonde? As opposed to Targaryen white?

[Xcorpyo001]

There are fans out there that think tyrion is a Targ??? WTF? That's the most ridiculus theory I've ever heard! Can someone direct me to a thread that explains this theory? It's sure to give me a right aul good laugh.

When and why did that happen? I can't remember that part.

Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers . . . but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough. "

And somehow after that the Greatjon became Robb's right hand, his staunchest champion, loudly telling all and sundry that the boy lord was a Stark after all, and they'd damn well better bend their knees if they didn't fancy having them chewed off.

...here.

This part is from one of the Bran chapters from AGoT

Sorry to jump in the middle of a Tyrion=Targ debate, just answering a question.

[Timbits]

He's small and delicious.

[Brother Wolf]

I'm re-reading AGOT and noticed this time around that the direwolves really do not like Tyrion at all. What do you think the significance is? Even Ghost attacks him when it's obvious that he means no harm to Jon.

I'm in the camp that Tyrion is a dragon (Targ), so it may be that the cold (ice) oriented direwolves hate the dragons (fire).

There has to be something about Tyrion in particular that pisses the wolves off. What do y'all think?

But later, when Tyrion is leaving The Wall and goes up top to say goodbye to Jon, Ghost doesn't react at all and lets Tyrion pet him.

I'd like to think it's some fantastic mystery, but it's more likely that the direwolves are just wolves who (1) sense the emotions of their masters and (2) don't play well with strangers. I think the most closest thing to "supernatural" that any of the wolves have done thus far is Nymeria's dragging Cat's dead body from the water and guarding it.

[king biters chamber pot]

1.) Tyrion likes dragons

2.) Tywin says that Tyrion isn't his son

3.) Tyrion's hair is lighter than his siblings'

4.) Was born with a big head & a tail, both characteristics of a dragon.

[Elrick]

Whats kinda funny is in Arya's chapter in ASoS she meets a boy named Ned who has light yellow hair and purple eyes. Gee I wonder if this kid could be a Targ.

[Galen M]

Whats kinda funny is in Arya's chapter in ASoS she meets a boy named Ned who has light yellow hair and purple eyes. Gee I wonder if this kid could be a Targ.

Ned is a Dayne, and I believe they Valyrian (or is it First Men) blood.