[ADWD SPOILERS] Hardhome

[mormont]

I just want to point out that under the wall, the NW keep their provisions in tunnels called wyrmways.

Wormways. Because, you know, they're in the earth. ;)

[pappymojo]

Wormways. Because, you know, they're in the earth. ;)

I don't have my copy in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it was wyrmways. It was in the Jon chapter in about the middle of the book, where the NW is counting their provisions with Winter coming and Stannis' men at the wall and the Wildings. I'm pretty sure this was what led to Jon taking out a loan from the Iron Bank. The name struck me as interesting and was mentioned more than once.

[Kingslayer]

No idea. But it has that cool Nightfort horror vibe.

off topic, but a big "fuck you" to Mother Mole for luring those people into that cesspit. The other "witches" too, for proclaiming the Night's Watch rescue expedition to be "slavers." You'd think someone with magical abilities could see that, you know, the presence of those ships fulfill the fucking prophecy that brought them there in the first place! Darwin Award contestants, all of them.

Matter of fact, Jon should have let the dead things in the woods and water have their way with those people. Let them get slaughtered by the dead and eat each other to stay alive, instead of attacking people who went out of their way to help them.

Mother Mole and her people = fail. The smart ones went with Tormund, the mean ones went with the Weeper, and the dunces went to Hardhome.

[Sadyv]

True, but remember, as Jon said, once all those people are dead, you now have thousands of corpses to be added to the legions of wights. Jon wasn't just saying that to appease Marsh, I believe he was looking at it from all angles.

Anything to limit their forces is to the benefit of the Night's Watch defenses, particularly as we haven't seen some of the nastier creatures the Others have used, the zombie giants and mammoths, and ice spiders, which I assume are some sort of animated golem spiders of ice and snow.

[mormont]

I don't have my copy in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it was wyrmways.

I don't have my copy in front of me either, so I must admit I got it slightly wrong: it's 'wormwalks'. Although it's possible that they were mistakenly referred to in ADWD as 'wormways'. However, they've been mentioned several times over the course of the series and have never been referred to as 'wyrmways'. Of that, I'm certain.

off topic, but a big "fuck you" to Mother Mole for luring those people into that cesspit. The other "witches" too, for proclaiming the Night's Watch rescue expedition to be "slavers." You'd think someone with magical abilities could see that, you know, the presence of those ships fulfill the fucking prophecy that brought them there in the first place! Darwin Award contestants, all of them.

The first ships that turned up were slavers, from Lys, and sailed off with their holds full of hundreds of wildling women and children, to take them into slavery. And they intended to return with more ships. (This is all covered in an Arya chapter.) So the wildlings were wrong about the NW ships, but for a good reason.

[Clash]

Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood.

I'm just quoting this again because it's the only description we have of what happened at Hardhome.

I'm inclined to go with the volcanic story first and the meteor second. The description of ashes raining down for half a year lends credence to the volcano theory which is also bolstered by the fact that there is certainly some volcanic activity in the North; the hot springs in Winterfell being a case in point. Then there's the caves in the cliff that could also have been formed from volcanic activity.

The argument that the NW or its rangers would have seen and recognised volcanic activity depends greatly on them being aware of the phenomenon. Although there's evidence that we can recognise; such as hot springs and caldera, lava streams etc., there doesn't appear to be any history of prolonged volcanic activity in Westeros that would have enabled observers to recognise it for what it was. To people unused to the phenomenon, descriptions such as the one quoted above may only ever be ascribed by observers to other worldly or demonic beings rather than a natural occurrence.

[Kraken]

I'm curious, if it was just a volcanic eruption, why the story would lead to people thinking the inhabitants were butchered or enslaved... and not just burned like the charred bones and swollen corpses mentioned.

[Clash]

I'm curious, if it was just a volcanic eruption, why the story would lead to people thinking the inhabitants were butchered or enslaved... and not just burned like the charred bones and swollen corpses mentioned.

There are quite a few reasons why they would think so. A great number of the inhabitants would have been eaither buried or burnt to nothing by a volcanic eruption. The number of bodies found would be such a small proportion of the town's population, there'd be no other explanation for the missing people. The screams from the caves (probably people trapped by lava flows) would have added credence to the belief that some third party was involved as well.

[mormont]

There are quite a few reasons why they would think so. A great number of the inhabitants would have been eaither buried or burnt to nothing by a volcanic eruption. The number of bodies found would be such a small proportion of the town's population, there'd be no other explanation for the missing people. The screams from the caves (probably people trapped by lava flows) would have added credence to the belief that some third party was involved as well.

I think if it was a simple question of a lack of bodies, the legends would probably be about people being mysteriously missing - not about them being carried off.

[Clash]

I think if it was a simple question of a lack of bodies, the legends would probably be about people being mysteriously missing - not about them being carried off.

But there are lots of legends about it. Being carried off by slavers is just one of them.

[Black Crow]

"Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white swirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterwards only the skulls remained."

Sound familiar?

[Eddison Tollet]

I'm curious, if it was just a volcanic eruption, why the story would lead to people thinking the inhabitants were butchered or enslaved... and not just burned like the charred bones and swollen corpses mentioned.

If it was a volcanic eruption or some other natural disaster, that doesn't mean that some of the survivors weren't enslaved or butchered. Look at what happened in ADWD with slavers showing up to carry people off. If it was a natural disaster of some sort and some opportunistic traders went north to check it out and found a bunch of terrified and by then likely starving people that were desperate to get away, they would have been easy pickings for slavers. Food and supplies can be hard to come by in the far north. If you have a bunch of refugees pouring into the surrounding areas with nothing but what they could carry when they fled with them, I don't think it would be that surprising for some people to decide they don't have the supplies or interest to feed and care for them and possibly they would even be superstitious and frightened that the refugees would bring or be followed by whatever befell Hardhome and simply choose to kill them.

[Clash]

"Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white swirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterwards only the skulls remained."

Sound familiar?

It is familiar except 'normal' fires won't drop ash on places hundreds of miles away for half a year. Volcanoes will do that.

[mormont]

But there are lots of legends about it. Being carried off by slavers is just one of them.

Yes: and the only other one mentioned is being butchered for meat. So far as we know, there are no legends about Hardhome suggesting that people just mysteriously disappeared. So far, we've had only that one mention of people being taken for meat or taken for slaves, both of which suggest some human involvement in what happened to them.

I like Edd's idea of the survivors being carried off. That makes sense.

[Clash]

Yes: and the only other one mentioned is being butchered for meat. So far as we know, there are no legends about Hardhome suggesting that people just mysteriously disappeared. So far, we've had only that one mention of people being taken for meat or taken for slaves, both of which suggest some human involvement in what happened to them.

I like Edd's idea of the survivors being carried off. That makes sense.

:agree:

And none of the explanations exclude any of the others either. It could be one, some or all of them.

[Yoren the rainbow cloak]

could it not be the that the people draged of for meat where meat fo dragons?

[Elric of Melnibone]

tze's post still boggles my mind

It seems too bland to have just been a volcanic natural disaster. It is heavily implied the Doom wasn't an accident, and the parallels are too obvious

I like the idea of some huge standoff between Others, CoM, and/or Valyrian dragons. I like the idea of wargs taking control of dragons, then somehow waking the Others, then the Valyrians freak out and nuke the whole place.

There are far too many mentions of warging and skinchanging, combined with uncontrollable dragons, for this to be a coincidence

Maybe warging dragons didn't work so hot at Hardhome, but now we have Jon Snow, half Targ, and half Stark warg-- who better to warg a dragon?

[Free Northman]

tze's post still boggles my mind

It seems too bland to have just been a volcanic natural disaster. It is heavily implied the Doom wasn't an accident, and the parallels are too obvious

I like the idea of some huge standoff between Others, CoM, and/or Valyrian dragons. I like the idea of wargs taking control of dragons, then somehow waking the Others, then the Valyrians freak out and nuke the whole place.

There are far too many mentions of warging and skinchanging, combined with uncontrollable dragons, for this to be a coincidence

Maybe warging dragons didn't work so hot at Hardhome, but now we have Jon Snow, half Targ, and half Stark warg-- who better to warg a dragon?

The only dragon warging will be done by Bran.

The other Stark kids cannot even properly Warg their wolves - being far short of Varamyr's level, which allowed him to warg into other common beasts like bears and shadowcats - and even some of them proved a struggle for him, initially.

Warging into a Dragon will probably require skinchanging of the highest order - the likes of which only a greenseer could probably achieve.

But as long as the North has Bran, I believe Dragons won't be able to touch them. In fact, he could probably take over Dany's Dragons as soon as she sets foot anywhere in Westeros. He is one skinchanger in a thousand, remember, to quote Bloodraven.

[alienarea]

The only dragon warging will be done by Bran.

The other Stark kids cannot even properly Warg their wolves - being far short of Varamyr's level, which allowed him to warg into other common beasts like bears and shadowcats - and even some of them proved a struggle for him, initially.

Warging into a Dragon will probably require skinchanging of the highest order - the likes of which only a greenseer could probably achieve.

But as long as the North has Bran, I believe Dragons won't be able to touch them. In fact, he could probably take over Dany's Dragons as soon as she sets foot anywhere in Westeros. He is one skinchanger in a thousand, remember, to quote Bloodraven.

That would actually be quite cool. Dany finally sets foot on Westeros, conveniently neir a weirwood, Bran wargs Drogon and tries if she really can't burn.

[Gertrude]

Hadn't read this thread before, but I like the talk of firewyrms and the connection to wormwalks. Just because the Watch now spells it that way and thinks they were named because they are underground doesn't mean that originally they weren't wyrm burrows, or at least named for them. If Jon is able to warg into Ghost and survive (as per theory), that's a pretty thorough lesson in warging, no? His skin changing ability may not be developed now, but if that comes to pass he's going to have a lot more skill/awareness of the process. I don't have a specific theory, but lovely possibilities of Jon and firewyrms are all swirling around in my head.