What will become of the Lannister siblings

[iamthedave]

It's humiliating for Sansa for a couple reasons:

1. Realistically speaking, Tyrion is a deformed dwarf - he does not meet the expectations anyone has for their daughter (and has been turned down numerous times as a marriage option) never mind Sansa's own feelings towards his looks.

2. Tyrion is known as a man who frequents the company of prostitutes regularly - this would be humiliating for any woman.

3. Sansa has been forced into marrying him as she is a Lannister prisoner. And it is a slap in the Starks' faces not simply because of this, but because Tyrion is the most despised member of his house, even Tywin can't bear to look at him. So it's as if the Lannisters are shitting on them - offering what the Lannisters don't even want to be associated with to one of the most beautiful girls in the kingdom from one of the most noble houses in the realm.

4. Tyrion is from the House that is responsible for wiping out Sansa's. Of course she is ashamed to be married to him.

Pretty much.

It'd be humiliating for any woman. Everybody laughs at Tyrion. Even the whores. Sansa is at that point the heir to one of the Great Houses of Westeros.

Had it been Lancel... well, that wouldn't have worked out thanks to cersei, but at least he's good looking. Back then that did matter an awful lot to sansa.

[mediocre cheese]

Had it been Lancel... well, that wouldn't have worked out thanks to cersei, but at least he's good looking. Back then that did matter an awful lot to sansa.

Which is why she wanted to marry crippled dog breeder dashing athletic knight Willas Tyrell. And when tyrion offered to let her marry lancel, she begged him to allow her to.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Sansa didn't choose Tyrion over any other Lannisters. She refused to make a choice. And she refused to make a choice because from her perspective, they were all Lannisters and thus the same to her. She was not going to choose which one got to rape her and steal her claim.

I think the only reason she "chose" (I tend to think she could have gone for Lancel if she'd wanted, and Tyrion would have backed out- but I know there are some of you who feel otherwise) Tyrion over any of the other Lannisters that might have been pushed on her is because she felt there was a chance she could be safer with him, knowing he'd saved her from Joff once before and had never been unkind or cruel to her directly.

Covered your objections already. Were the Lannisters going to let her waltz out the door and say, "No thanks, I don't think I'll take a Lannister marriage after all," of course not. Of course she doesn't want to marry a Lannister. Of course she has no choice but to marry a Lannister. But here are her thoughts before the wedding, verbatim:

It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. "I'll go."

They were not all the same to her.

[iamthedave]

Covered your objections already. Were the Lannisters going to let her waltz out the door and say, "No thanks, I don't think I'll take a Lannister marriage after all," of course not. Of course she doesn't want to marry a Lannister. Of course she has no choice but to marry a Lannister. But here are her thoughts before the wedding, verbatim:

It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. "I'll go."

They were not all the same to her.

Yeah, but once she met him...

Sansa's a beautiful girl. She wants a handsome husband. I know she often gets criticized for being shallow but there's really nothing wrong with that desire.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

5. Everyone but Sansa knew she was going to be married on the day she was ambushed. How humiliating is that?

6. Tyrion moved Shae into his apartments and made her his wife's maid -- how wonderful to have your husband's whore up in your business every single day.

7. Even Tyrion notes that they look absurd together.

#5, yep, agreed. #6, she knew nothing about Shae. #7 is just #1 all over again... the "he's ugly" justification.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Sansa's a beautiful girl. She wants a handsome husband. I know she often gets criticized for being shallow but there's really nothing wrong with that desire.

No problem with that. In fact, this is one of two reasons I can agree with for her to feel humiliation over the match (the other being his whoring reputation). I take issue with the notion that Tywin and the Lannisters are giving her to Tyrion as an insult-- well, Cersei probably would, but I don't think Tywin is. The whole Tysha thing proves he is zealous to a fault over Tyrion's reputation and desires him to be thought of as above others and worth more because he is a Lannister.

[Alexia]

For the record, Cersei genuinely felt bad for Sansa about the marriage to Tyrion. She's not the member of her family known for imposing abject sexualized humiliation on women who misbehave. She told Sansa that in her shoes she would tear her hair out, and in ADWD when she was thinking of how she planned to marry her to Lancel it is very clear that she had nothing to do with the marriage and regretted Sansa's treatment in general.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Everybody laughs at Tyrion. Even the whores. Sansa is at that point the heir to one of the Great Houses of Westeros.

Had it been Lancel...

Because nobody finds Lancel laughable in these books... but he sure is prettier!

Had she married Lancel, Joffrey'd have his way with her seven days of the week and twice on Sunday. Standing up to Joffrey was one thing Tyrion had no trouble doing, especially after Sansa was his wife. And had done before... as I quoted above.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

For the record, Cersei genuinely felt bad for Sansa about the marriage to Tyrion. She's not the member of her family known for imposing abject sexualized humiliation on women who misbehave. She told Sansa that in her shoes she would tear her hair out, and in ADWD when she was thinking of how she planned to marry her to Lancel it is very clear that she had nothing to do with the marriage and regretted Sansa's treatment in general.

I agree she wasn't in on the hatching of the plan, but she knew about it well beforehand (she's the one who had the gown made) and participated in hiding it until the wedding day just as much as the rest of them.

Regretted Sansa's treatment in general? You mean the part where she pretended to look out for Sansa and gained her trust only to stab her in the back with it when she found out Ned was planning on leaving KL? Or when she told Sansa she was keeping Illyne Payne close during the battle of the Blackwater in case he needed to lop her head off?? Don't recall hearing any remorse from her on that.

[Alexia]

What do you base this allegation on? I'd like to see a textual citation to support this idea?

Had she married Lancel, Kevan would have had a vested interest in protecting her and he stood up to Joffrey over her as well. And Joffrey would have eventually raped her as Tyrion's bride if she stayed in KL. He publicly bragged to the whole court about how he was planning to rape her while she was Tyrion's wife, on the morning of his own wedding.

ETA: Cersei regretted Sansa's treatment during the great nude parade, when she hallucinated Sansa's accusing face looking at her from the crowd. But yes, Cersei did participate in the forced marriage although it wasn't her idea and she would not have done it of her own volition to insult Sansa or the Starks, as was suggested upthread. That sort of thing is Tywin's MO.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

What do you base this allegation on? I'd like to see a textual citation to support this idea?

Had she married Lancel, Kevan would have had a vested interest in protecting her and he stood up to Joffrey over her as well. And Joffrey would have eventually raped her as Tyrion's bride if she stayed in KL. He publicly bragged to the whole court about how he was planning to rape her while she was Tyrion's wife, on the morning of his own wedding.

Which allegation? Sansa's blabbing to Cersei about Ned's plans to leave KL in secret? Or when Sansa was kept by Cersei in Maegor's Holdfast during the battle, and Cersei said:

"When you asked about Ser Illyne earlier, I lied to you. Would you like to hear the truth, Sansa? Would you like to know why he's really here?...He's here for us...Stannis may take the city and he may take the throne, but I will not suffer him to judge me. I do not mean for him to have us alive."

"Us?" says Sansa. And Cersei replies:

"You heard me. So perhaps you had best pray again, Sansa, and for a different outcome. The Starks will have no joy from the fall of House Lannister, I promise you."

Then she lightly brushes Sansa's hair away from her neck.

And Kevan won't do anything to Joffrey as long as Tywin's in the picture, Lancel or no. Tywin runs the show and Kevan cows to Tywin every time.

Remember, when Joff tries to start the bedding Tyrion stabs the table with a dagger and threatens to geld him. I know you think that was only to spare himself embarrassment, and I think it was, but to spare her as well, IMO. And when Joff says he's going to make Sansa kiss Robb's decapitated head, Tyrion says:

"No...Sansa is no longer yours to torment. Understand that, monster."

Tyrion even thinks at one point... can't remember where, about the fact that he'd laid his mantle of protection on her at the wedding, and desires to do just that for her. I can't see him letting Joffrey rape her. He stopped him from that sort of behavior when she WASN'T his wife. He surely will now that she is.

[iamthedave]

What do you base this allegation on? I'd like to see a textual citation to support this idea?

Had she married Lancel, Kevan would have had a vested interest in protecting her and he stood up to Joffrey over her as well. And Joffrey would have eventually raped her as Tyrion's bride if she stayed in KL. He publicly bragged to the whole court about how he was planning to rape her while she was Tyrion's wife, on the morning of his own wedding.

ETA: Cersei regretted Sansa's treatment during the great nude parade, when she hallucinated Sansa's accusing face looking at her from the crowd. But yes, Cersei did participate in the forced marriage although it wasn't her idea and she would not have done it of her own volition to insult Sansa or the Starks, as was suggested upthread. That sort of thing is Tywin's MO.

I do actually free Cersei from blame from things involving her dad.

Tywin steamrollered Cersei exactly the same way he steamrollered Tyrion and Jaime. His kids went against him one time and one time only: When Tyrion shot him in the gut with a crossbow. I refuse to blame Jaime and Tyrion for their part in the Tysha fiasco for this reason and I won't blame Cersei for being involved in this marriage, either.

I agree that if he had married Sansa to Lancel things might well have been different. Given that Tywin rather casually trampled on even Joffrey, I actually think he would have done something to protect the wife of his brother. He might have taken some perverse satisfaction in seeing Tyrion's wife getting abused by Joffrey, but not his brother's.

[nara]

I interpreted Cersei's involvement with Sansa's terrible situation the following way:

-- she genuinely wanted her as Joff's wife, but mainly because Cersei thinks beauty is everything. It Didn't occur to her to break the engagement even after Ned was executed. I believe that was Tywin's idea.

-- she despises Sansa's innocence and lack of lust for power.

-- she enjoys the forced wedding not because she hates Sansa but because she enjoys Tyrion being forced to marry as she was with Robert and as her dad was planning to do again.

-- i don't think it occurs to her or the Lannisters that anyone would balk at marrying into the family.

-- the Lannisters are used to Tywin's will eventually becoming reality, so they may rage for a while, but then they accept it. They'd expect Sansa to do the same, but she doesn't worship Tywin as they do so she's stubborn.

-- the line about having Ilyn Payne execute her is typical of the Lannister siblings. Jaime made threats to Edmure. Tyrion made threats about Tommen. Cersei made threats to Sansa. All talk to create fear and obedience, but they have no intention of carrying out those threats.

By the way, this hostage business appears to be acceptable in Westeros. Even Ned had a hostage, Throne, and told Catelyn to keep an eye on him in case they needed to use him to ensure his father's cooperation against the Lannisters. Seems harsh to force a marriage, but in some ways that also gave her some protection as a member of the Lannister family.

All that being said, can't wait for Sansa to become a kickass player in The Game.

[brashcandy]

I do actually free Cersei from blame from things involving her dad.

Tywin steamrollered Cersei exactly the same way he steamrollered Tyrion and Jaime. His kids went against him one time and one time only: When Tyrion shot him in the gut with a crossbow. I refuse to blame Jaime and Tyrion for their part in the Tysha fiasco for this reason and I won't blame Cersei for being involved in this marriage, either.

I agree that if he had married Sansa to Lancel things might well have been different. Given that Tywin rather casually trampled on even Joffrey, I actually think he would have done something to protect the wife of his brother. He might have taken some perverse satisfaction in seeing Tyrion's wife getting abused by Joffrey, but not his brother's.

You mean his brother's son. Anyways, Kevan might have helped although he isn't much different from Tywin, but he's awfully prickly about Lancel's honour... Tywin is too much of a sadist to care either way.

[iamthedave]

You mean his brother's son. Anyways, Kevan might have helped although he isn't much different from Tywin, but he's awfully prickly about Lancel's honour... Tywin is too much of a sadist to care either way.

Ah yes, good point. Marrying her to Kevan would have been a bit odd given he has a wife and all.

I'd contest that Tywin's a sadist purely because sadists take pleasure from inflicting pain, and I'm uncertain that Tywin was able to really 'enjoy' anything. He's more like Westeros' answer to The Terminator, only a political version thereof.

[brashcandy]

Ah yes, good point. Marrying her to Kevan would have been a bit odd given he has a wife and all.

I'd contest that Tywin's a sadist purely because sadists take pleasure from inflicting pain, and I'm uncertain that Tywin was able to really 'enjoy' anything. He's more like Westeros' answer to The Terminator, only a political version thereof.

Oh he enjoys things. He likes to hear The Rains of Castamere; I'm sure he had a good chuckle over the Red Wedding, and the last time we saw him he was on the toilet having now come from f**king a prostitute.

[iamthedave]

Oh he enjoys things. He likes to hear The Rains of Castamere; I'm sure he had a good chuckle over the Red Wedding, and the last time we saw him he was on the toilet having now come from f**king a prostitute.

I don't think he would have smiled over the Red Wedding. He's soundly critical of it when he speaks on the subject. In principle I can see him approving, but not the form it took. We know he smiled when Tarbeck Hall came crashing down. He was an exceptionally cold man.

Prostitutes aside. I wonder if we'll learn a bit more about that later?

[Faint]

For the record, Cersei genuinely felt bad for Sansa about the marriage to Tyrion. She's not the member of her family known for imposing abject sexualized humiliation on women who misbehave. She told Sansa that in her shoes she would tear her hair out, and in ADWD when she was thinking of how she planned to marry her to Lancel it is very clear that she had nothing to do with the marriage and regretted Sansa's treatment in general.

I like Cersei as much as anybody but these statements are not at all accurate. If you refer to the brief sojourn of her general vindictiveness during the course of her walk of shame, I think it more than a tad silly to hold out her thoughts during said event as emblematic of her general feelings on any issue, much less Sansa. In any case, I find it hard to believe that Cersei lost a second of sleep over Sansa's marriage to Tyrion or the beatings that Sansa took to satisfy Joffrey's sadistic pleasures. And I speak not only of when these little tortures where going on but any time since then (and most likely in future books to come). In order for Cersei to genuinely feel bad about Sans's marriage or truly feel regret about how Sansa was treated by her and her family, Cersei would have to empathize with Sansa, and if the books demonstrate anything, it's that the only person Cersei empathizes with is her self. Sure, Cersei could appreciate how terrible it would be to have to marry Tyrion and how awful Sansa was treated by the Lannisters, but there is a rather large leap between recognition and true compassion -- a leap certainly never made by Cersei.

[Tini]

How much did Kevan really know about Joffrey's threats regarding Sansa? How much did he believe? If Sansa had married Lancel, Joffrey might have made good on his threats before Kevan found out or could take steps to prevent him. I think Kevan would have removed his son and his wife from court rather sooner than later, so that might have offered Sansa protection. WIth Tyrion, she was very much forced to stay at court - just as Tyrion was.

Being forced into a marriage with Tyrion was a worse fate than being married to Robert Baratheon, as far as Cersei Lannister was concerned. Still, I don't think she empathized with Sansa when she told her that she would tear her hair out, were she in Sansa's position. If she empathized truly, she might have tried to find something comforting to tell the girl who was about to become her sister in law. She didn't.

Cersei's regrets about Sansa's treatment are ... shortlived, at best. She doesn't really feel it, deep down. At one point, Cersei even remembered Falyse Stokeworth after she gave her to Qyburn. When Qyburn told her that Falyse was still alive but no longer capable of serving her whims, she forgot about her immediately. Just as she put the guilt from her mind.

I don't believe the Lannister siblings will not carry out the threats they make. They may not carry out all threats, and they may be relieved that they can't carry out threats, or won't have to carry out threats.

Jaime threatened Edmure, but he seemed excessively relieved that he didn't have to carry out his threats. Remember his words to Ryman Frey about not making threats if one is not prepared to follow up on them? He didn't really know himself what he would have done, but shooting a baby out of a trebuchet was definitely a possibility.

Cersei threatened Sansa, and we don't know for sure what she would have done. But she issued other threats, and followed through on them - like when she had the whore flogged that Tyrion used as camouflage. And I sincerely doubt she would have intervened to save Sansa from Joffrey. Strangely enough, I don't consider her telling Sansa that Ser Ilyn was there to lop her head off if Stannis broke through a threat. Ser Ilyn would have killed Cersei, too. Stannis was not a fan of the King of the North, not his ally. Stannis was not Gregor Clegane, but he did not have a reputation for mercy, either. Cersei is not big on giving comfort, but I think her words were a promise, not a threat - a twisted promise of mercy, of safety even. Sansa wouldn't necessarily remember what happened to Princess Elia and her children; I am sure Cersei did.

Tyrion was certainly relieved that his father's arrival ruled out that he harm Tommen in response to Cersei's actions. He didn't want to harm Tommen but he didn't want to let Cersei win, either. Tywin's intervention meant that he didn't lose face by not carrying out his threat, so he dropped it. Without Tywin, it might have gone either way.

[Woman of War]

I have thought a while about WHAT made Tyrion participate in the gang- rape of Tysha.

I know this is a highy sensitive topic, inviting all kinds of disagreements, even ugly comments.

And if my dinner table psychology is ridiculous, is there a psychology PhD somewhere who might enlighten us all?

This is NOT about excusing. I have children, every day kids torture other kids in the streets of our big city, girls abuse other girls sexually, gangs of boys push another teen under the tube.........and every mother prays daily not only that her child may not be victim and come home safe BUT THAT HER CHILD MAY NOT BE ON THE OTHER SIDE. That she has done things right so that he is not the passive bystander, not the one who beats his schoolmate bloody, filming it with his smartphone............etc.

I believe we could approach an answer by considering the nature of torture. This is only at first sight a means to extricate information. Torture is meant to to destroy a personality, to undermine the morality of the adversaries by humiliating them, using sexual violence very effectively in patriarcial societies, using it against women and men who have stepped out of line to teach them their place. Torture may inflict horrible physical pain but it is a crime against the soul, the self esteem, the identity of the victim. AND men can be as well victims of sexual torture as women. This can, in a society oriented at male values, even be more devastating socially because it pushes the male victim into the inferior female role.

Torture is meant to take the victim's identity, finally replacing it with a hollow space, in extremis to be filled with a new identity choosen by the torturer, commonly called "brainwashed".

So this is what Tywin intended with both Tysha and Tyrion. They were both children, to Tyhsa Tywin was the omnipotent nobleman. To Tyrion he was the Father dreaded and admired at the same time, Tyrion had been brainwashed by him all his life long, always despised, never respected as a person, on the other hand wanting nothing more than to be valued by this paragon of power in society, who made use of Tyrion's abilities at whim only to treat him like slime the next moment, creating a terrible emotional dependency, true child abuse.

Tyrion IDENTIFIED with his father, blaming himself for his insufficiency, totally taking over his viewpoint at the age of thirteen. This is what sexual or other abuse does to children, this is why they don't run to the police or their teachers straightaway after an abuse. They believe it is their own fault. When his father told him to despice that greedy little whore he did, when his father told him to rape her he did so, taking over the perspective of his father, having learned to give up his own in the presence of that terrible man.

The love for Tysha had not only been inappropriate for a Lannister, it threatened Tywin's power over Tyrion because it threatened to restore the boys' self-esteem, thus reducing the emotional dependency. Tywin had to act.

In ethnic conflicts the first thing that is taught to male child soldiers is to rape, to look into the victims ' eyes and to go through with it, being dead emotionally afterwards and able to be used by their captors for the most horrible things. The whole "punishment" of Tysha was not only to put the little gold digging whore into place but to destroy Tyrion's perception and compassion, making him a Lannister that could be used as a Lannister by Tywin, as dead emotionally as Tywin himself. Tywins perfect pawn with a brain, that is what Tywin wanted him to be. It is a wonder that Tyrion came out of that experience not utterly destroyed. Deeply disturbed as he is he has still some compassion and empathy left, would still be able to find back into normally functioning in relationships like friendship and love. in our times this would have taken him a lot of therapy.

So, I hope this will not be interpreted as misogynistic defence of Tyrion...

Book to read about Joffrey: "we need to talk about Kevin" by Lionel Shriver