headtrip_honey Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 There is a blanket mod warning in effect for this thread. Please read down 2 posts. -Kat UPDATE: Per moderator suggestion, we have created a separate community for Sandor fans. Feel free to squee and speculate at fysandorclegane.livejournal.com!______________________________________________________________________________________________ Hey, guys, we made it to six! Anywho, to continue from where we left off.....from Alexia: He put his sword at her throat during the strong play with the weak speech, but I don't actually think he intended it as a threat there or that Sansa interpreted it as one. I think that is what Brash is referring to. Totally agree with you though, except I'd say he was probably one of the more terrifying parts of her day. Actually, Sansa associates him with safety and protection after he saved her from the mob, so I think that is probably part of why she retconned the kiss in (to make the whole thing "work"). Yeah, I didn't count the sword thing, because it wasn't seriously meant as a threat. Whereas the dagger, whether he would have used it or not, was intended to at least appear as a threat. Fair point about why she retconned. It's funny, when/if they meet up again, he'll be all apologetic about assaulting her in the tower, and she's gonna be like, "But you offered to take me away! You kissed me!" And he'll be just :stunned: Quick post, gotta go run errands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 :) anytime a dagger is used it's threatening, at least coming from Sandor. My point was just to illustrate that Sansa is normally always freaked out by him, and if the bedroom scene started out scarily, it didn't end that way. At the end, Sansa was the one reaching out to him and he was crying... this to me is more likely the reason why she comes up with the unkiss, not to gloss over trauma, but to give life to something that she wanted to do when she touched his cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Mod warning, goes for this thread and all future Sandor Clegane threads: Look, fanfic is NOT ALLOWED on this forum. No references, links, or speculation that might as well be fanfic. George doesn't like it, so it's board policy. That's it; there's no gray area.The mods are sick of this thread bordering on chat, as well as stuff bordering on fanfic, so we're just going to axe this thread permanently if it continues. Maybe there would be some leeway on the chatty stuff if there weren't a server issue, but you all know the server is at its limit and can't handle it. I suggest that since everyone here seems pretty friendly with each other, maybe try going into chat. Or starting a Tumblr, which is in fact perfect for squeeing over pairings you like and bonding over that. You know, I'm posting this before another mod gets in here because I totally get where you all are coming from as someone who enjoys fic in other fandoms. The problem is, this isn't really the place for it right now, and warnings have already been issued to the thread in general, and specific people. We're about to start handing out 3-day suspensions or permabans for people who have been warned before. If you don't think you can control your urge to madly and frenetically ship here, save your membership, don't get banned right now, and just take this thread to another venue. That's all. It's not like we have a personal vendetta against you, but this forum has rules and norms and this thread in particular keeps pushing against them. That's it. Think really hard about what I'm saying before you start posting in this thread again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R & R Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 It troubles me that Sandor is perceived to have the "Butcher of Saltpans" tag hung upon his name forever more. Though I suspect it may take awhile relative to much more important stuff in the story having to unfold, Brienne's testimony on this score, should she ever have the opportunity and plot necessity to do so can at least salvage Sandor's reputation at least a little bit. As can Gendry and various other minor characters whose names don't immediately come to mind who could also attest to Sandor's innocence about what happened at Saltpans. It's the fact that Sandor deserted the scene during the Battle of the Blackwater which will weigh most heavily against his reputation. No one who ends up amongst the Westerosi powers-that-be will ignore the fact that Sandor bailed when most needed in a trying circumstance, no matter which side he was fighting for at the time, such that his reputation as a warrior could be compromised to the extent that he's execution or Wall worthy. The assumption here being that, in general, powers-that-be are ever willing to hire on folk with skills, despite previous affiliations, providing they bend their knee. Still, Sandor has this one significant strike against his reputation, going forward. Ergo, Sandor has political considerations to think on during his time-out on the Quiet Isle, in addition to anything having to do with Sansa. I like these complications that affect even a secondary character such as Sandor. That the discussion of such complications might turn into "speculations that might as well be fanfic" amongst people who care to speculate, well, that's a tightrope worth walking on; that is, y'know, simply interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'd add that now Sandor - unless he's officially attained, which is likely but we haven't witnessed it as if it never crossed anyone's mind - is the de jure ruler of the Clegane lands and keep. I wonder wether that will come into play somehow. I suspect that the Saltpans thing is going to chase him forever. Sure, Brienne knows the truth, but so what? This is a world where information is generally unreliable and travels slowly. Where she will testify, in front of what court, why? Nah, to many Sandor Clegane will remain the Butcher of Saltpans. I think it's telling that even Jaime - who knows him, even if vaguely - was at first perplexed when he heard about Saltpans since it was more like Gregor's MO but later seemed to accept that both of Tywin's dogs have gone mad (almost direct quote from AFFC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 How do you think the Clegane lands could come into play, or Sandor's claim to them? It would be interesting but they are in Lannister territory and the Lannisters aren't too pleased with their deserter. I sort of think that they are lost to Sandor -- if he comes under the protection of another great lord or lady, he might get new lands but I somehow don't see him regaining the Clegane lands. As we've seen with Gregor and Hoat, the Butcher thing probably is something Sandor can get over. Sure, he's forever going to be remembered for butchering Saltpans, but unless he falls into the hands of an unfriendly riverlord he should be just fine. The desertion, OTOH... I wonder if the villagers would have let him stay with them, were it not for that. ***I should add an addendum here that I am now officially terrified of speculating and shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 The Saltpans are a problem for Sandor even with a pardon, as his name is associated with them. The lands issue is interesting. Their seems to be little evidence that he has any interest in his own lands. He left when he was about 11 or 12, never to return. The character is a complex one because he is not a POV and yet is more complex and interesting than some of the POVs we have (yes I am referring to the Ironborn). I still think this maybe a case of a character becoming more in readers' minds than the author intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R & R Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 San/San shipping aside, it is Sandor Clegane's desertion during the Battle of the Blackwater that will be the most significant determinant upon his story going forward. I don't see any getting around that, plot wise. *If* GRRM decides Sandor's story is worth telling any more. If so, then I'm with Rapsie, in that GRRM may well have created a character that, compelling as Sandor may be, George has inadvertently created fan worship upon said character that has nothing to to with how the ASoIaF plot resolves. Sandore Clegane is a character that, imho, is worthy of a book unto his own. For all his flaws, and likely *because* of his interesting flaws, I luv me this character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R & R Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 ***I should add an addendum here that I am now officially terrified of speculating and shipping. I haz a sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I don't mean to be rude, but isn't it a little ironic that 'There is no gray area' is a policy of the forums, but quite the opposite with the novels? :commie: If you have an issue with the moderation policy, PM me or one of the other mods. And everyone should be scared of speculating about fanfic. I'm extremely intimidating. Rawr. :ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 If you have an issue with the moderation policy, PM me or one of the other mods. And everyone should be scared of speculating about fanfic. I'm extremely intimidating. Rawr. :ninja: I think Alexia in particular was speaking of speculating about future canon events in general. We do tend to talk about, "What will/can happen" and while I suppose the scenarios we speculate about may seem to tread into fic territory, it's absolutely not the intention. At least not for the regulars who hang out here. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Été Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 How do you think the Clegane lands could come into play, or Sandor's claim to them? It would be interesting but they are in Lannister territory and the Lannisters aren't too pleased with their deserter. I sort of think that they are lost to Sandor -- if he comes under the protection of another great lord or lady, he might get new lands but I somehow don't see him regaining the Clegane lands. As we've seen with Gregor and Hoat, the Butcher thing probably is something Sandor can get over. Sure, he's forever going to be remembered for butchering Saltpans, but unless he falls into the hands of an unfriendly riverlord he should be just fine. The desertion, OTOH... I wonder if the villagers would have let him stay with them, were it not for that.I think he's likely to have huge image problem. Half the realm hates him for being a prominent Lannister enforcer; the other half hates him for deserting at the Blackwater. His reputation was so bad that his appointment to the Kingsguard was incredible controversial, even setting aside the fact that he wasn't even a knight. And then the Rape of Saltpans comes along, so shocking and disgusting that the entire Seven Kingdoms hears about it. It's like a terrorist attack. When he leaves the QI, it will be as a fugitive. I think Alexia in particular was speaking of speculating about future canon events in general. We do tend to talk about, "What will/can happen" and while I suppose the scenarios we speculate about may seem to tread into fic territory, it's absolutely not the intention. At least not for the regulars who hang out here. :)Think I screwed over one of the previous incarnations of this thread by following a line of speculation and then (completely facetiously) referring to it as "getting into fanfic territory". The whole thread was deleted. The regulars know the rules by now and I didn't think we'd been that bad of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I think Alexia in particular was speaking of speculating about future canon events in general.Alexia will not be doing any San/San shipping for a while. Not that there isn't still stuff to talk about with respect to Sandor, but after multiple threads (a few of which have been locked) it seems like now is a good time to chill out. I think I shall take myself off to the ADWD forum for a bit (where no one will call me a whore, and there is so much new material to discuss that it leaves little time for shipping). Ciao, all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 (where no one will call me a whore, and there is so much new material to discuss that it leaves little time for shipping). Ciao, all. :crying: I for one will miss your well-reasoned and thought out insights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanbean4lyfe Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Alexia will not be doing any San/San shipping for a while. Not that there isn't still stuff to talk about with respect to Sandor, but after multiple threads (a few of which have been locked) it seems like now is a good time to chill out. I think I shall take myself off to the ADWD forum for a bit (where no one will call me a whore, and there is so much new material to discuss that it leaves little time for shipping). Ciao, all. I feel like you're going on vacation...hehe i agree with all the new info about dance, but all the threads are so big and explosive already I can't rear my head into the conversation! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripples and broken things Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (Removing. Not sure I understand the rules of the thread, so I'm going to hop over and read another.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I think he's likely to have huge image problem. Half the realm hates him for being a prominent Lannister enforcer; the other half hates him for deserting at the Blackwater. His reputation was so bad that his appointment to the Kingsguard was incredible controversial, even setting aside the fact that he wasn't even a knight. And then the Rape of Saltpans comes along, so shocking and disgusting that the entire Seven Kingdoms hears about it. It's like a terrorist attack. When he leaves the QI, it will be as a fugitive. Think I screwed over one of the previous incarnations of this thread by following a line of speculation and then (completely facetiously) referring to it as "getting into fanfic territory". The whole thread was deleted. The regulars know the rules by now and I didn't think we'd been that bad of late.speculating about future canon events here. It would be terrible for Sandor if the Quiet Isle was sacked because the Elder Brother is basically his alibi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 speculating about future canon events here. It would be terrible for Sandor if the Quiet Isle was sacked because the Elder Brother is basically his alibi. Septon Meribald may also have heard his confession and also be aware of the true state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDragon Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I think both Saltapan and BWB will howl Sandor forever. Lords and kings will not employ him because of deserting from BWB at a critical moment, and small folks will be fear of him because of his reputation as Butcher of Saltapan. Even though Brienne and EB make a testimony for him to convince a landlord or any court, it can clear his name (if it is sufficient against the accusations) only for a smaller group of people, but generally the rumours can endure. I think his bad guy reputation sticks back now, as someone mentionned earlier that even Jaime believed Sandor is the mad dog of Saltapan. If or when he leaves the QI, a hard life is waiting for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound's She-wolf Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I think someone mentioned in another thread that he would need a King's (or Queen's) pardon and even then he would still need to be in the service of someone who could keep the populace from trying to rip him to shreds. Unless he moved in with the Wildlings, I don't think they would really care about anything that happened in south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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