New photo proof - Riverrun definitely cut for now!

[Dragons Daughter]

Hi!

First time poster, long time lurker, but I figured if I ever come out of hiding, it should be now.

There's been a lot of wondering about Edmure, the Blackfish and Riverrun, and how the hell they're going to manage if they do cut them out (mainly in regards to the RW and Jaime), and how they can't just keep the former chained up in the camp like they did at the end of S1. I was watching the new AGOT trailer HBO released, and there's a split second cut onto Jaime, in a very well constructed wooden "cell" in an army camp, with a beard, implying quite a bit of time has passed. Personally, I think it looks a little too damn permanent to be a few day thing, so with that and the lack of Tully casting news, I think it looks like Riverrun has been cut, at least from the first half of season 2. :(

I took a screen cap and posted it on image shack so everyone could see for themselves and decide. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/jamiezo.jpg/

Let me know if you have any problems seeing it, and I'll post it elsewhere as well.

[Maginor]

My theory is that they will have raven correspondence with Riverrun during season 2, and then they will regroup there at the beginning of season 3 so that Edmure and maybe Hoster can be introduced.

[Dragons Daughter]

My theory is that they will have raven correspondence with Riverrun during season 2, and then they will regroup there at the beginning of season 3 so that Edmure and maybe Hoster can be introduced.

God I hope so!

I don't even mind if they cut Hoster for time constaints (and it'd suck to lose the Blackfish, as well), but Edmure's essential to the plot. No Edmure, no RW.

[DaveSumm]

They've basically subbed Cat's POV for Robb's, so we'll see his battles and not Cat hearing about them. No bad thing IMO.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

I was thinking the same. You cut out Riverrun, you cut out a unique city and a host of characters such as Edmure and the Blackfish. But I suppose the former can be introduced in season 3 as we draw closer to RW. It's just a bit of a shame we'll never see Cat's home.

Thinking about it though, she doesn't need to go home yet. She doesn't do much at Riverrun that can't be relocated to Robb's camp in season 2. She's going to go off to see Renly and meet the wench, then return to Robb's camp to do that naughty thing that she'll get a bit of grief for. Then Robb will probably order her back to Riverrun where she can see her father etc etc for season 3, and introduce Edmure to the plot while she's back.

[DaveSumm]

There's a lot of people assuming Edmure has to be in it at some point........I don't really see it though. He's just as important in aCoK as he is in future books, so if they haven't cast him now I don't see the need to do so later. Why can't there be a RW without him? His part in it is self contained, no one else's plot rests on him being present. So yea, I've pretty much accepted there'll be no Tully's/Riverun.

[Maginor]

There's a lot of people assuming Edmure has to be in it at some point........I don't really see it though. He's just as important in aCoK as he is in future books, so if they haven't cast him now I don't see the need to do so later. Why can't there be a RW without him? His part in it is self contained, no one else's plot rests on him being present. So yea, I've pretty much accepted there'll be no Tully's/Riverun.

Well, somebody have to get married to a Frey girl. There is a very good reason for not introducing Riverrun in season 2 but still do it in season 3. There are a lot of new characters and places that need to be created for season 2, and this can be overwhelming (and budget straining). There is more room for doing it in season 3, especially if it is only to cover a part of the third book. Moreover, Riverrun and Edmure also have a (small) part to play after RW. What will Jaime for instance do in season 4/5 if they never introduce Riverrun?

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

If they get rid of Edmure they are going to have to do quite a bit of butchering to Martin's story to make RW still work and have it still be surprising.

[TheGriffinReborn]

To be fair they could just marry Cat off to a Frey man for the Red Wedding, keeps the idea of "amends" and saves them bringing in Edmure.

[Fragile Bird]

To be fair they could just marry Cat off to a Frey man for the Red Wedding, keeps the idea of "amends" and saves them bringing in Edmure.

Ugh! That would be brutal. Jaime rescuing Edmure from the gallows and then settling the seige with words and threats instead of a brutal battle is a huge part of his vow to Cat not to harm any Tully or Stark It also deletes an absolutely delicious scene in the book, where Jaime rides alone to the gates of Riverrun to parlay with Brynden and gets heaps of abuse and insult dumped on him.

[Lord Barristan]

Cutting Riverrun is just brutal to the story... Edmure is a bit of a fool, but this makes him more sympathetic. By the time the Red Wedding happens, we've known him for three books, which makes us feel for him even more in FEAST when he treats with Jaime and gets shipped away to Casterly Rock...

You can say that there are too many new places/characters introduced in Season 2 for there to be Riverrun, but what about season 3? You have to introduce Mance Rayder, Tormund Giantsbane, and any other wildlings they bring in such as Val, Dalla, Varamyr, Magnar of Thenn, Val's lover, Harma Dog's Head (I know not all of these will make the cut, but they will need to have at least a few of Mance's captains)

Then you've got the kings landing storyline where you need to introduce Mace Tyrell, assuming he isn't in season 2, and maybe Ser Garlan, Lord Redwyne perhaps, Lady Olenna, The Red Viper, Ellaria Sand...

Then for Jaime/Brienne's storyline you need Vargo Hoat, Qyburn (assuming they aren't in season 2 i haven't seen news on them) and any other Bloody Mummers they decide to add

Then you've got Dany's whole storyline. Daario, Brown Ben Plumm, Missandei, and whoever else they deem important enough.

So yes basically there are always going to be new charaters added so i don't think its likely to see Edmure or Brynden (though it makes the story seem pretty flawed IMO. Cat comes from one of the richest and strongest houses in the River lands, but her brother and uncle just decide to not take part in the war? they are one of the biggest supporters, and make the whole king in the north/river lands viable.)

I really hope I am wrong, but I'm not too hopeful

[Hear Me Roar!]

I'm of the opinion that suspending Riverrun and Edmure until Season 3 is fine, but eliminating them completely is just absolutely unforgivable. The Red Wedding is one thing I do not want them messing with *AT ALL*. I want it to go down exactly how Martin wrote it. Otherwise, it won't have nearly the same effect. I'm sorry but I won't budge one bit on this. Do not mess with the RW!

[Hear Me Roar!]

Cutting Riverrun is just brutal to the story... Edmure is a bit of a fool, but this makes him more sympathetic. By the time the Red Wedding happens, we've known him for three books, which makes us feel for him even more in FEAST when he treats with Jaime and gets shipped away to Casterly Rock...

You can say that there are too many new places/characters introduced in Season 2 for there to be Riverrun, but what about season 3? You have to introduce Mance Rayder, Tormund Giantsbane, and any other wildlings they bring in such as Val, Dalla, Varamyr, Magnar of Thenn, Val's lover, Harma Dog's Head (I know not all of these will make the cut, but they will need to have at least a few of Mance's captains)

Then you've got the kings landing storyline where you need to introduce Mace Tyrell, assuming he isn't in season 2, and maybe Ser Garlan, Lord Redwyne perhaps, Lady Olenna, The Red Viper, Ellaria Sand...

Then for Jaime/Brienne's storyline you need Vargo Hoat, Qyburn (assuming they aren't in season 2 i haven't seen news on them) and any other Bloody Mummers they decide to add

Then you've got Dany's whole storyline. Daario, Brown Ben Plumm, Missandei, and whoever else they deem important enough.

So yes basically there are always going to be new charaters added so i don't think its likely to see Edmure or Brynden (though it makes the story seem pretty flawed IMO. Cat comes from one of the richest and strongest houses in the River lands, but her brother and uncle just decide to not take part in the war? they are one of the biggest supporters, and make the whole king in the north/river lands viable.)

I really hope I am wrong, but I'm not too hopeful

The first season already specifically stated that Riverrun is at war with the Lannisters. Tywin mentions it when he says, "We could have used Ned Stark to broker a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun..." and Greatjon Umber says if we "break the siege of Riverrun, the Riverlords will join us." or something stupid like that.

So, clearly, however minor the lines of dialogue, it is explicitly stated that Riverrun exists and that they are allied with House Stark.

Why they would never show it is beyond me.

[Lord Barristan]

The first season already specifically stated that Riverrun is at war with the Lannisters. Tywin mentions it when he says, "We could have used Ned Stark to broker a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun..." and Greatjon Umber says if we "break the siege of Riverrun, the Riverlords will join us." or something stupid like that.

So, clearly, however minor the lines of dialogue, it is explicitly stated that Riverrun exists and that they are allied with House Stark.

Why they would never show it is beyond me.

Ok not sure how i missed that... but it just makes it worse imo.

If Riverrun is indeed on the Stark's side, don't you think Robb would meet up with his Uncle and Grandfather and Greatuncle at some point? The fact that they acknowledge it but won't show it makes absolutely no sense

[Hear Me Roar!]

Ok not sure how i missed that... but it just makes it worse imo.

If Riverrun is indeed on the Stark's side, don't you think Robb would meet up with his Uncle and Grandfather and Greatuncle at some point? The fact that they acknowledge it but won't show it makes absolutely no sense

Right, I'm agreeing with you basically. It makes zero sense.

[Padraig]

If Riverrun is indeed on the Stark's side, don't you think Robb would meet up with his Uncle and Grandfather and Greatuncle at some point? The fact that they acknowledge it but won't show it makes absolutely no sense

Patience! :) You can't say it doesn't makes sense before we even see S2. They could get away without showing Riverrun in S1 without any hole in the plot and they could easily find another way in S2 to do so. My personal theory is that Riverrun will remain under siege in S2 and only be relieved in S3 when Tywin has gone east.

The writers are clever people. They know that they mentioned Riverrun and the Tullys a few times in S1. If I can figure out a way to make their absence credible then I am confident that they can do so. Lets not get excited about something that doesn't seem logical. :)

By the time the Red Wedding happens, we've known him for three books, which makes us feel for him even more in FEAST when he treats with Jaime and gets shipped away to Casterly Rock.

By the time he meets Jaime he will have been in a couple of seasons, so we should feel very sympathetic for him. I don't think that is a worry. And he is Robb's Uncle, we should have plenty sympathy for him either way.

When people start talking about all the cast people they have to introduce in S3, I go back to Roose. He wasn't in S1 but here he is in S2 when he is actually required. Also remember that Edmure is a rather major character because he will appear in multiple seasons. The only comparable characters in your list are Mance, Daario and probably Qyburn. Not that many at all. Tormund is important but they could avoid introducing him in S3 if they had to. An extra Tyrell may appear but they could avoid them if pushed (certainly less important than Edmure). I hope the QoT does make an apperance though. At lot of other characters will appear for a couple of episodes and die/dissappear. So the number of new cast members required can be overstated. S2 (AFAICT) had more.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Ok not sure how i missed that... but it just makes it worse imo.

If Riverrun is indeed on the Stark's side, don't you think Robb would meet up with his Uncle and Grandfather and Greatuncle at some point? The fact that they acknowledge it but won't show it makes absolutely no sense

Not if he had to go West directly to lure Tywin away. They have a strategy discussion in the beginning, Catelyn goes off to see Renly, Theon off to see his father and Robb goes West on his campaign. The campgain ends near the end of the season when Catelyn joins him again, is freaked out that he married and the news from the North and does what she does. Then they return to Riverrun in the beginning of season 3 where Catelyn can mourn with her father for a short time, they have the funeral introducing the Blackfish and Edmure (that scene is gold!) and the Karstark "scandal" before they set of for the RW. There's plenty for them to do in that time ;)

So in short, they don't need to show Riverrun because Robb goes around it and arrives there only on his way back. Problem solved and budget solved for a new set in season 3 ;)

So I'm positive that the Tullys are in season 3 and 4 (if), as well as the Reeds are. The new "recurring" (?) characters for season 3 would then be Edmure, (maybe Blackfish), Mance Rayder, (Val), Jojen and Meera Reed, Ramsay Bolton, Daario and some Meereen Noble (I guess they will change the story there a bit).