Outright Lies vs. Sneaky Truths: A Group Project

[Dr. Pepper]

Err, I don't like what your (very astute) observation means for Quentyn. There are no subtle hints that he died, it's stated outright that he's dead as a doornail. If it follows GRRM's pattern, then Quentyn would only be as dead as Davos after his head and hands were mounted on a spike. I don't like that idea at all.

[The guy from the Vale]

Another one might fall into this category, although we'll have to see how that situation pans out:

We're told outright by Doran Martell that Myrcella has survived Darkstar's attack. We haven't seen her since, though, and there's reason to believe she was switched (Doran's tale of Daenerys in the Water Gardens).

[Teal'c]

Well maybe, but the wiki's on both don't state either have siblings, and Giant's bane is stated to have 3 sons and a daughter no sisters or brothers.

The next question would be why head to Skagos if it's known Bengen and Jon are at the wall where the boys could be better protected?

As Luwin suggested, it is prudent to keep Bran and Rickon separated, to decrease the chance that both are captured. Bran is going towards the Wall, so Osha must take Rickon elsewhere.

[Bride of Winter]

interesting thread :)

what would we call the AA prophecy? - it's pretty outright stated, but it's likely not false.

my bets are on the "lie" being that it's one specific person (like you said, now Stannis can't be AA. Whoever actually turns out to be AA, we'll probably discover it as it happens)

Also there's Cersei being absolutely convinced that Margaery is the queen in Maggy the Frog's prophecy. Obviously it's Sansa, it is known.

[Independent George]

Sneaky Truth: I think Marillon faked being blinded and maimed - we don't know for certain, but the way Sansa focused on his bandaged eyes and gloved hands, plus his sudden disappearance from the sky cells, implies that Littlefinger spared him in exchange for his confession. Of course, he probably also had his throat cut by Lothor Brune shortly thereafter, but that's a whole other story.

Outright lie: Dany constantly mentions how she and Viserys roamed from one Free City to the next fleeing Robert's hired knives. I'm pretty sure this was all in Viserys' head. Renly says outright that Jon Arryn never allowed attempts on her life, and Barristan never mentions any previous attempts. I'm pretty sure the wine merchant was the first.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Err, I don't like what your (very astute) observation means for Quentyn. There are no subtle hints that he died, it's stated outright that he's dead as a doornail. If it follows GRRM's pattern, then Quentyn would only be as dead as Davos after his head and hands were mounted on a spike. I don't like that idea at all.

Except that we have a POV who actually sees Quentyn die and observes his dead body. So it doesn't fit the pattern the way Davos' "death" does. That pattern would be, someone in King's Landing receives a raven saying Quentyn's dead without anyone actually seeing the body.

what would we call the AA prophecy? - it's pretty outright stated, but it's likely not false.

I think the proposed solution (Dany) is false, not the prophecy itself, necessarily.

[Dr. Pepper]

Except that we have a POV who actually sees Quentyn die and observes his dead body. So it doesn't fit the pattern the way Davos' "death" does. That pattern would be, someone in King's Landing receives a raven saying Quentyn's dead without anyone actually seeing the body.

Haha. I have been reading that scene totally wrong. :blushing: I always thought Selmy saw burned Quentyn to Dany's bed but then he kept away and then three days later Missandei brings word that Quentyn died. Now that I've reread it, it makes so much more sense than what my brain was trying to come up with.

[Drinking Cersei's Tears]

Would "Arya Stark is in Westeros and went back to Winterfell to marry Ramsay Bolton" go in the lie category?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Would "Arya Stark is in Westeros and went back to Winterfell to marry Ramsay Bolton" go in the lie category?

I would say so, yes.

[Teal'c]

Lie: Tyrion tells Jaime he did kill Joff.

[DarkSnow]

"The black cat in the Red Keep is Balerion." Can someone explain this theory to me please, Never heard this one before.

[Red Raven]

Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys had a black kitten named Balerion. Years later this cat, now an old, snarly tomcat with chewed ears, pops up on occasion in the Red Keep - Robert remembers it jumping on a table and stealing some food off of Tywin's plate, it was the cat that Arya was chasing when she ended up in the room with the dragon skulls, and is also the same cat that pesters Tommen's kittens.

[King Doug]

"The black cat in the Red Keep is Balerion." Can someone explain this theory to me please, Never heard this one before.

This one I'm not sure about either. But I think someone said they were referring to Balerion as Rhaenys's cat (Elia/Rhaegar's daughter that was killed by the Lannisters during the sack of KL). I'm starting a re-read and this is one thing I'm trying to pay attention to, among many others

[Red Raven]

Outright Lie: Ned was the Stark who got Ashara pregnant.

Sneaky Truth: Brandon was the one who impregnated her.

Evidence: Barristan Selmy remembers Ned with respect and speaks well of him but gets annoyed almost to the point of spitting when talking about the "Stark" who knocked her up and left her. Selmy doesn't name which Stark but it wouldn't be Ned if Selmy remembered Ned as honorable. Benjen was too young.

[Jem]

Outright Lie: Ned was the Stark who got Ashara pregnant.

Sneaky Truth: Brandon was the one who impregnated her.

Evidence: Barristan Selmy remembers Ned with respect and speaks well of him but gets annoyed almost to the point of spitting when talking about the "Stark" who knocked her up and left her. Selmy doesn't name which Stark but it wouldn't be Ned if Selmy remembered Ned as honorable. Benjen was too young.

Barristan never says a Stark impregnated Ashara.

1. Ashara was 'dishonored' at Harrenhal.
   
2. Ashara 'looked to' a Stark.
   

Two separate things.

[Teal'c]

The Red Snake did it, Oberyn Martell.

[Red Raven]

"Ser Barristan Selmy revealed that Ashara killed herself because she gave birth to a stillborn daughter. According to Selmy, a Stark bedded her at the tournament of Harrenhal and got her with child. Ashara was full of grief after the death of her child and shame for the way Stark dishonored her, which led to her suicide."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashara_Dayne#cite_note-RaDwD67-4

[Jem]

"Ser Barristan Selmy revealed that Ashara killed herself because she gave birth to a stillborn daughter. According to Selmy, a Stark bedded her at the tournament of Harrenhal and got her with child. Ashara was full of grief after the death of her child and shame for the way Stark dishonored her, which led to her suicide."

http://awoiaf.wester..._note-RaDwD67-4

Don't trust the wiki. This is just someone's interpretation, and in my opinion, it is wrong.

This is one example of GRRM being tricksy with his writing. He does it fairly often.

[King Doug]

Don't trust the wiki. This is just someone's interpretation, and in my opinion, it is wrong.

This is one example of GRRM being tricksy with his writing. He does it fairly often.

Agreed, as I recall, it was only speculation on Selmy's part. Never definitive

[Fire Eater]

Lie:

Aegon is Rhaegar's son

Dany or Stannis is Azor Ahai

Domeric Bolton died of natural causes

Dunk was knighted

Euron sailed to Valyria where he got the dragon horn

Ned dishonored Catelyn by siring a bastard

Mance Rayder was executed

Stannis was defeated by the Boltons

Truth:

Sandor is the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle

Melisandre was a temple prostitute in the Red Temple of Volantis (her tears were flame)

Gendry's father was Robert