Who's to Blame for Joffrey's character?

[LadyMary]

LadyMary, I don't think we know that Joanna and Tywin are first cousins, only that they are cousins. We don't know the degree, 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever. People often say they are 1st cousins, but I believe there is nothing in the books except "cousins".

Mary,

As far as incest goes, I'm strictly referring to Jaime and Cersei. To be honest, I forgot Tywin married a cousin. I don't know much about genetics, but does the fact that Cersei and Jaime are twins thin things out, making their him even more inbred? But then again, Myrcella and Tommen seem to be great kids, and healthy.

You may be right that Joanna and Tywin were not first cousins. I just assumed. In any case, Cersei seems to be wired wrong as well, though maybe not to the degree that Joffrey is.

As far as the incest = insanity concept goes, was it Jorah or Barristan who said that with the Targaryens it was a toss of coin whether one one be mad or sane? Maybe the same applies to Lannisters only two out of three of Cersei and Jaime's kids were sane and one is a raging sociopath.

[James Arryn]

And the gaoler man and sailor Davos are searching everyone?

Lol, yes, exactly.

[Lizaveta Martell]

If Joffery is a psychopath, which is a big if at the end of the day because teenagers as a rule should not be diagnosed, genetics will be the biggest factor, with natal factors like hormone exposure and amygdala development in early childhood being secondary. Most studies find that while there is some increased incidence of psychopathy in troubled households (such as when you have an alcoholic father who beats your mother and a mother who becomes paranoid as a result), most psychopaths come from normal environments. We do know he killed pets, which is one of the psychopathic triad (the other two being fire starting and wetting the bed).

Some poster above me mentioned something about Jaime and Cersei being twins- this has no more effect than if they were regular brother and sister (assuming no in utero causation). They are fraternal twins (because they are male and female and do not have the same DNA). There have been instances of fraternal twins with different fathers actually.

However, this whole debate is marred by the fact that GRRM clearly doesn't know much about our world genetics. Maybe his world has its own rules about these things.

[Silver Spearwife]

However, this whole debate is marred by the fact that GRRM clearly doesn't know much about our world genetics. Maybe his world has its own rules about these things.

It seems to. Incest can lead to all sorts of genetic deformities in children, but in ASoIaF, the only real side affect appears to be insanity (and, for some reason, beauty, though since we only have two families for reference this could just be a coincidence).

[Lizaveta Martell]

I don't know the rates for sibling incest, but generally speaking 1st cousin marriages only produce rates of abnormality analogous to women over the age of 40 having children (although that might just be an argument for having your kids young).

GRRM should really explain his genetic rules, because I'd be interested to see them. There appear to be any number of magical rules of phenotype dominance.

[nara]

It sounds like the consensus is that Cersei, Robert, Jaime, and genetics all played some role in Joffrey's horrible behavior. So do you think that fostering him at Casterly Rock, Winterfell, or Dragonstore might have fixed the damage? My thought is the best place would have been Casterly Rock with Tywin. He's the only one who could have disciplined him without fear of retribution from either Robert or Cersei...

[Baitac]

I think that you can have family groups that show a high incidence of any kind of disease or condition: schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, Huntington's disease, you name it. I don't think GRRM is as ignorant about genetics as some of you think he is.

[My blade shall cut lies]

Joffrey is the one responcible for his own actions, just like every other character in this series. There is only one word to describe Joffrey: evil. Like it or not, he is an evil character. Despite GRRM saying that no one is innately good or evil, good and evil people do exist but they are not always black and white. Look at Dungeons and Dragons character aliments. Joffrey is Neutral Evil.

[nara]

Hi, Nara.

I don't know, Tywin is a monster in his own way. At least with Ned he'd gain a conscience, and with Stannis he'd be amazingly disciplined. Besides, look how wonderful the Lannister kids turned out, though Tyrion, as debauched as he is, probably has the best moral compass of the three.

Agree that Ned did the best job raising kids. And Joffrey wouldn't be in the same hostage position as Theon, so Ned could be affectionate withe the boy, too. I just wonder if Cersei would stop interfering in that case or whether she'd complain to Robert every time Joffrey sent her a raven about how he was being disciplined. In the case of Tywin, she wouldn't dare interfere and she'd trust him to have Joff's best interests at heart in a way she wouldn't trust Ned.

[deleted01]

Its not only the act itself that is horrible...its the age at which he did it! I forgot how old they said Joff was, but when Robert smacked him, he knocked out two baby-teeth, so he had to be twelve or younger. I would think he did other violent things before graduating up to butchering a live cat, and I'm not sure if being ignored by your father would make you snap that young.

I'm sure the discussion has moved on a lot since that original post of mine, but yes, I agree. This is part of the reason why I mostly blame Cersei for the way Joffrey ended up - this opinion is unpopular I understand, but there we have it. I think the greatest piece of evidence I have for blaming Cersei for Joffrey's behaviour is his siblings, Tommen and Myrcella. They too were ignored by Robert, but they weren't brought up in the same way as Joffrey was by Cersei, and they are perfectly normal, lovely kids. Now I understand that they're younger, so Joffrey would have perhaps been old enough to understand that his father didn't particularly care for him, but that's no excuse to turn into a psychopath of that level, I agree.

I agree that Joffrey must have done other things that we're not aware of, as I cannot imagine a normal boy suddenly cutting open a pregnant cat. The act itself is actually mind-boggling - he must have been relatively young, yes, which makes it even worse that he would know how much pressure to apply to be able to cut open a cat, and the fact that he even had a knife in the first place is beyond me. Prince or no, he should not have been able to get his hands on a knife so easily. I believe that Cersei is very responsible for Joffrey, and while Robert did not help, I think that ignoring what is going on and enabling these things to continue are two completely different things.

[Fragile Bird]

I believe Joffrey was only 7 or 8 at the time.

[AzureOwl]

Dont the books say that incent by the Targaryen made half there kids mad like Mad king Aerys and the other half great as Rhaegar? also works with Danny and Viserys kind of!

So mybe Joff's just born the mad child and the other two sweet little kids loved by all. sure tyrion compare joff to the mad king in the books too

I don't think that we should rely too much in comparisons between Cersei's children and the Targaryens. For one thing, the Targaryens's problems were the result of continous incest over many generations. As far as we know Joffrey was the result of an isolated case of incest.

Second of all, the Targaryen genome is not normal, even by the standards of the world they live in. There is magic involved, that manifests itself in prophetic dreams and the ability to hatch/control dragons. With magic in the picture, any attempt to use them as reference point for the normal results of incest in Westeros goes right out the window.

[Lizaveta Martell]

Discipline would not have suddenly implanted Joffery with empathy or taken away his "poverty of the emotional range". Like I said, most psychopaths don't grow up with lax or abusive parents. It's congenital. There have been no instances of superior parenting rewiring a psychopath's brain. The only improvements in psychopath behavior happen very rarely and only in middle age.

The reasons I think GRRM doesn't understand genetics are numerous. The Targaryens show signs of partial recessive albinism, yet this trait persists despite outbreeding with the Martells. Joffery having blond hair is indicative of exactly nothing since his mother is blonde and so is his paternal grandmother (ie the Targaryen woman who married into the Baratheons), nor would Robert's bastards only ever look like him. Black hair and blue eyes aren't magic- especially given that blue are a combination of recessive alleles. Additionally, the Baratheons do not practice incest and so would not have such similarity and uniformity in phenotype and genotype. There is no such thing as strong seed. It doesn't work like that.

[Baitac]

Discipline would not have suddenly implanted Joffery with empathy or taken away his "poverty of the emotional range". Like I said, most psychopaths don't grow up with lax or abusive parents. It's congenital. There have been no instances of superior parenting rewiring a psychopath's brain. The only improvements in psychopath behavior happen very rarely and only in middle age.

The reasons I think GRRM doesn't understand genetics are numerous. The Targaryens show signs of partial recessive albinism, yet this trait persists despite outbreeding with the Martells. Joffery having blond hair is indicative of exactly nothing since his mother is blonde and so is his paternal grandmother (ie the Targaryen woman who married into the Baratheons), nor would Robert's bastards only ever look like him. Black hair and blue eyes aren't magic- especially given that blue are a combination of recessive alleles. Additionally, the Baratheons do not practice incest and so would not have such similarity and uniformity in phenotype and genotype. There is no such thing as strong seed. It doesn't work like that.

I think he's going mostly with phenotypes: the Baratheons look like this, the Starks look like this, the Tullys look like this, the Lannisters look like this, and the Targaryens look like this. He does include the "madness" issue with the Targaryens, which is more complex genetics. All in all, I think he does a good job, considering that he is simplifying the issues for us with all of these Houses, so we can easily identify this person and that person. It's not perfectly scientific, but it is illustrative. Perfect for the purposes of this fantasy world.

[Lizaveta Martell]

You could argue that GRRM has invented his own genetics, but ignoring all the rules of normal inheritance make it difficult to understand what it is.

[FacelessDude]

I think Joffrey is to blame for his character. I haven't finished the series yet, but I heard Robert neglected Joffrey. I think Cersei mentions his relationship with Robert in FFC.

But regardless of how he was treated, Joffrey is a horrible person. I would agree that he is a sociopath with way too much power. But his mothers influence obviously doesn't help any.

[Fragile Bird]

I think Joffrey is to blame for his character. I haven't finished the series yet, but I heard Robert neglected Joffrey. I think Cersei mentions his relationship with Robert in FFC.

But regardless of how he was treated, Joffrey is a horrible person. I would agree that he is a sociopath with way too much power. But his mothers influence obviously doesn't help any.

Just in case no one made note of your first post FacelessDude, welcome to Westeros for your 2nd! Hope you enjoy yourself and post often. :D

[FacelessDude]

Thank you Fragile Bird! I feel welcome here, much appreciated. I'm glad I found this series, and now, this forum. :)

[Lord Flashheart]

Does anyone else think that the hound played a part in joff's character? I can't say what book but I remember cersei saying something to the effect that joff spent to much time with the hound and she would put better role models around Tommen. I believe it was the chapter that ser loras is trying to teach Tommen to joust. If there was ever a bad role model it was the hound so as bad as parents robert and cersei were I think the hound is as much to blame as anyone.

[The Snowman]

Well to be honest Robert should have at least fostered Joffrey. He must have known how badly screwed up he was. Send him Ned, that'd fix him up REAL quick!

Also Robert was a shity dad as he didn't give a shit

Cersei was a total fool and absolutely spoilt Joffrey rotten along with feeding his ego and his sense of entitlement

Jaime being his bio dad likely didn't help with things...you know genetically.