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[Book Spoilers] Selyse and Shireen


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#1 Lord Varys

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:52 AM

Just a place to discuss their roles in the series - or better, the lack of them (at least in season 2). Do you approve of it, don't you like, do you thinks it's a mistake, do you think they can still repair it?

#2 Tourniquet

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:37 AM

Didn't Stannis have 2 people follow him from the 'Seven' burning ceremony in Episode 1? He almost forgot to wait for them but looked back. Reached out a hand and had who I presumed to be his wife and daughter leave with him?

Edited by Tourniquet, 10 April 2012 - 08:37 AM.


#3 Bastard of the White Knife

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:47 AM

I think it's a huge mistake. One of the great images from the books was Stannis' family - headed by the iron-willed, unmerciful yet suprisingly thin-skinned Stannis, standing near his thin-lipped religious zealot wife (whom he dislikes) and their scarred daughter whose campion is a morose jester that creeps everyone out with strange prophesies.

#4 Lord Varys

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

Yeah, the fact many people dislike Stannis and/or his cause is the fact that he is surrounded/supported by a group of questionable/unsympathetic characters (i.e. Selyse and Ser Axell Florent). And Stannis's faction is not that dynamic. We still have the King's and Queen's Men in ADwD. All they had to do is to introduce them. It's not that they are going anywhere...

And yes, Queen Selyse does exist. But apparently she is not Mel's most devoted follower.

And the Queen's and King's Men vying for Stannis's ear is actually an interesting background struggle. I guess they will have to do this eventually as Stannis/Davos/Mel will have virtually nothing to do in season 3 if they truly end up splitting ASoS into two seasons. They can only go to the Wall in season 4 - after the Red and the Purple Wedding.

And Shireen, well, she has to appear. If she's not there, Stannis cannot die/fake his death in ADwD/TWoW. Neither Selyse nor Melisandre could succeed him, but as soon as the news of Stannis's alleged demise reach the Wall, Shireen will be declared Queen. If Stannis has no heir, they would have to rewrite everything if the series even reaches this point of the story.

Edited by Lord Varys, 10 April 2012 - 09:02 AM.


#5 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:28 AM

I'm not entirely sure that it's necessary to see Selyse or Shireen. We barely see the in the books. Selyse's main function is the book is in bringing Stannis around to Mel's cause (or vice versa) and Shireen's main function is to introduce the idea of greyscale and the odd fool Patchface who has an uncanny ability to see the future (but since no one pays him any attention his ability doesn't really help any).

Yes, the power struggle between the King and Queen's men is interesting in the book but it was basically a struggle between fervent followers of R'hollor and those not incline to that belief. We have already been shown the beginnings of this divide between Matthos and Davos (as a struggle between elders and young) which shows we don't really need to include the idea of King's Men and Queen's Men to illustrate the divide.

If they go the storyline that Stannis fakes his own death (which isn't even verified in the books yet), they still don't have to show Shireen. Just saying he has a daughter is enough to point out that he has a possible heir. We didn't see Stannis last season yet we were told he existed and that Robert had a true heir in him.

I have to admit though that I was very interested in seeing what sort of homely woman they'd make as Stannis' wife and how they might have envisioned greyscale to look.

#6 Lord Varys

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:53 AM

Selyse is actually more than an extra in ADwD. She is not only interacting with Jon Snow at the Wall, she is an important political player of her own after she arrived at Castle Black. Shireen does not have more screen time than, say, Tommen, but it's important to know that she exists (and this episode raises doubts about it).

The 'conflict' between Matthos and Davos Seaworth does not in the slightest resemble the quarrel between King's Men and Queen's Men. Davos and Matthos talked about religion and atheism, not about two different religions. Further, it does not seem that Matthos/Davos would actually have a true quarrel over religious matters. It's evident that Matthos deeply loves his father, he is no substitute for Axell Florent or Selyse Florent Baratheon.

Stannis may not fake his death, but either somebody else faked his death (i.e. Ramsay), or he is dead. The next POV chapter at the Wall (most likely from Melisandre's POV) will feature Her Grace, Queen Shireen of House Baratheon, the First Of Her Name, etc. Selyse would be entirely stupid to ignore the news about her husband's death. If it's a lie, well and good, then Stannis will still be king. But if not, then Shireen must be declared Queen as soon as possible or their whole cause will crumble at once. Shireen might wear her crown only for a fortnight, but she will be queen.

#7 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

Selyse is actually more than an extra in ADwD. She is not only interacting with Jon Snow at the Wall, she is an important political player of her own after she arrived at Castle Black. Shireen does not have more screen time than, say, Tommen, but it's important to know that she exists (and this episode raises doubts about it).


ADWD is book 5 in the series. We are only on season two of the show. We have already been told that ASOS will be split into two seasons. The adaptation of ADWD is years away. The audience knows Stannis has a wife. Not introducing her face doesn't change that and nor does it yet have any affect on how they choose to write Season 5/6. I don't agree that Selyse is an important political player in ADWD. What I got from her interactions with Jon Snow is that the nature of the wildlings is very difficult for those south of the wall to understand. I personally think it's important that the audience know that Shireen possibly exists, but if she does exist on the show I do not think there is any need to see her.

The 'conflict' between Matthos and Davos Seaworth does not in the slightest resemble the quarrel between King's Men and Queen's Men. Davos and Matthos talked about religion and atheism, not about two different religions. Further, it does not seem that Matthos/Davos would actually have a true quarrel over religious matters. It's evident that Matthos deeply loves his father, he is no substitute for Axell Florent or Selyse Florent Baratheon.


The very basic quarrel between the King's Men and the Queen's men is one based on religion. Even though Davos brings in the idea of atheism, the discussion between Davos and Matthos is still one about religion. The father and son can love each other deeply and still have that quarrel. I don't see the problem there.

Stannis may not fake his death, but either somebody else faked his death (i.e. Ramsay), or he is dead. The next POV chapter at the Wall (most likely from Melisandre's POV) will feature Her Grace, Queen Shireen of House Baratheon, the First Of Her Name, etc. Selyse would be entirely stupid to ignore the news about her husband's death. If it's a lie, well and good, then Stannis will still be king. But if not, then Shireen must be declared Queen as soon as possible or their whole cause will crumble at once. Shireen might wear her crown only for a fortnight, but she will be queen.


I agree that if they follow this storyline it's probably necessary for Shireen to exist in the show. If they write her out now, then the butterfly effect will change a whole lot of things. We don't know if they've truly written her out. If they haven't, it still doesn't mean we have to see her at this time. Just know she exists is all that's necessary for viewers.

#8 ViennaGirl

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

If Shireen and Patchface aren't in the show at all, then that changes how I think about ADWD - I've re-read Patchface's weird comments thinking they might mean something regarding the bigger story arc. But if GRRM is involved in the show, and the show writers don't write them in, then Patchface doesn't mean anything. Sure, it's possible they'll appear later, but hmmm. Maybe in the books, Shireen's purpose is to show greyscale, and in the show, they'll show it in another way. If that's even important. Which I was also assuming, but maybe not. Oh well...I love the show anyway - gives us all something to talk about for the next 5 years until the next book.

#9 dtones520

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

Shireen and Selyse arent a big part of book two anyways. So you can introduce them next season. You have a decent number of characters leaving the show after this season or early next with Maester Luwin, Rodrick Cassel, Alton Lannister (Cleos Frey), some random Ironborn, Renly Baratheon, etc. dying. You also only have Xaro and the warlock in Qarth for this season and the Pyromancer in KL. So thats at least 7-8 characters/contracts that open next year for Shireen, Selyse, the Reeds, Edmure, maybe the Blackfish, Ramsay etc.

Remember, they have a budget. You have to pay a fulltime actor more than you do some glorified extra. So some characters have to wait.

#10 Fredwin

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

Yeah, I don't think they are being cut out of the show. They were just cut out of the season. To introduce all the important things about Stannis you don't really need his wife or daughter actually present. Now if they could just nail how his character is actually portrayed in the book.

#11 ghost the direwolf

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:16 PM

Didn't Stannis have 2 people follow him from the 'Seven' burning ceremony in Episode 1? He almost forgot to wait for them but looked back. Reached out a hand and had who I presumed to be his wife and daughter leave with him?


Actually you are right, i assumed it was Selyse i am not sure if there was a daughter as well . Will have to rewatch the episode again.

#12 Bastard of the White Knife

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:22 PM

Yeah, I don't think they are being cut out of the show. They were just cut out of the season. To introduce all the important things about Stannis you don't really need his wife or daughter actually present. Now if they could just nail how his character is actually portrayed in the book.

The quote from Melisandre is that Stannis does not have any children and that he keeps his wife locked away. Certainly, Sylese and Shireen don't get a lot of "screen time" and I know that a TV show has a budget, but the writers could have said "Stannis Wife and Daughter are in a different part of Dragonstone" and it would have cost them absolutely zero dollars.

#13 addie

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM

Actually you are right, i assumed it was Selyse i am not sure if there was a daughter as well . Will have to rewatch the episode again.


I am positive Stannis leaves the ceremony with a "wife" (or at least a woman), that I took for Selyse. I don't think Selyse or Shireen are needed in this season. As pointed before, they don't play a huge role in ACOK (Shireen's main function is to offer us another regard on Dragonstone), and there actually are lots and lots of other people more interesting than them in this season in Westeros.

Not a huge fan of this episode, but I least I'm fine with them cut off the show this year.

#14 Reposado

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

And the Queen's and King's Men vying for Stannis's ear is actually an interesting background struggle. I guess they will have to do this eventually as Stannis/Davos/Mel will have virtually nothing to do in season 3 if they truly end up splitting ASoS into two seasons. They can only go to the Wall in season 4 - after the Red and the Purple Wedding.

yes, but a struggle that will be hard to implement in the limited screen time that they will have in the show. splitting it or not, there is a long time in asos where there is not much for stannis and mel to do, while davos is jailed in dragonstone. they will have to fill that with something, and they don't need to introduce a kings men/queens men plot now to do that

Yeah, I don't think they are being cut out of the show. They were just cut out of the season. To introduce all the important things about Stannis you don't really need his wife or daughter actually present. Now if they could just nail how his character is actually portrayed in the book.


It sounds like there is no shireen. Mel says his wife has given him only still births, not still births and one daughter. selyse will be cast eventually i'm sure, but i doubt there will be a shireen

#15 sennahoj

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:12 PM

granted, Mel's line suggests there is no Shireen. More than that, we learn that the queen is supposedly sickly, which also is a difference from the books IIRC. so could the writers in some way given the sickness, be it greyscale or something else entirely, to the queen instead? having no successor at all may make Mel's offer to give Stannis a son all the more tempting than having a female, albeit sick heir already. I have no idea how Stannis is going to react on the show, when he finds out that there is not that much substance to Mel's promise of a son. He could even threaten to put Melisandre to the sword for being the witch she is. Obviously this is just conjecture, but couldn't Mel offer to use her powers to heal Selyse, maybe ensure the birth of a living heir, which might be Shireen? I know how that sounds and it would be quite a substantial change from the books, but knowing the changes that have been made in the series, would it be inconceivable? I think not.
All I am saying is: If the series progresses to a point where it will absolutely be necessary for Shireen to exist as an heir, I am sure they will come up with some sort of plot twist to make it happen. The way the series is written makes both the queen and Shireen irrelevant at the moment.

#16 GSP

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:28 PM

I was instantly bothered by there being no Shireen and presumably, Patchface. I've always suspected GRRM has a lot more in store for both those characters. Does he colloborate with the show's writers to give them heads up about his stuff? I suspect not, seeings how last season a major character in the next book had his tongue ripped out by Drogo.

If patchface is indeed the prophet of the drowned god and ends up being taken seriously at any point, or Shireen gets propped up to lead the cause in the possible event of Stanis' demise, how do you correct for that shit?

#17 dtones520

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:56 PM

I was instantly bothered by there being no Shireen and presumably, Patchface. I've always suspected GRRM has a lot more in store for both those characters. Does he colloborate with the show's writers to give them heads up about his stuff? I suspect not, seeings how last season a major character in the next book had his tongue ripped out by Drogo.

If patchface is indeed the prophet of the drowned god and ends up being taken seriously at any point, or Shireen gets propped up to lead the cause in the possible event of Stanis' demise, how do you correct for that shit?


I was instantly bothered by there being no Shireen and presumably, Patchface. I've always suspected GRRM has a lot more in store for both those characters. Does he colloborate with the show's writers to give them heads up about his stuff? I suspect not, seeings how last season a major character in the next book had his tongue ripped out by Drogo.

If patchface is indeed the prophet of the drowned god and ends up being taken seriously at any point, or Shireen gets propped up to lead the cause in the possible event of Stanis' demise, how do you correct for that shit?


Mago is far from a major character. His name is mentioned 7 times in the first 5 books (5 in GOT, 1 in SOS and 1 aDWD). He is Khal Jhaqos blood rider, which can be replaced by a new Dothraki in the show named Bago. You are acting like they kill some major player like Varys or something.


#18 dtones520

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:01 PM

Mel's quote states his wife has given him no sons, only stillborns. It says nothing about a daughter, which leaves it open for them to add a daughter later. Simple as that

#19 GSP

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:10 PM

Mago is also a POV character for the next book, no? So frankly, you have no more clue how big a deal he is going to be than I do.

I'm not 'acting like' anything. I was just pointing out that the writers for the show don't seem to be bouncing their changes off of GRRM, who would have presumably gave them a heads up on that one if they did.

Yes, you can introduce 'Bago' in the place of 'Mago'. The same does not hold if Shireen and/or Patchface become a big deal. Or does it? How do you undo the fact that Stannis has no progeny with Shireen emerging as an important character, if that were to happen?

I can't remember the exact dialogue from the show, but Selse had given Stannis ONLY death or something like that. It seemed pretty explicit that Stannis had no children, not just no sons. Anybody able to confirm the dialogue?

Edited by GSP, 10 April 2012 - 08:12 PM.


#20 The Red Lamb Chop

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:44 AM

Melisandre: You must give all of yourself.

Stannis: I have a wife. I took a vow.

Melisandre: She’s sickly. Weak. Shut away in a tower. She disgusts you. And she’s given you nothing. No sons; only stillborns, only death. I will give you a son, my king.

Stannis: A son.