Heresy 11

[Black Crow]

I would love that, since i could only find that quote by you:

Usually discussions and an exchange of emails somehow end up on So Speak Martin and I couldnt find it there or anywhere.(maybe it was a video?) So if you have the source, it might prove to be some new and original.

Its in an essay by Tommy Patterson at the back of the collected edition of the comic book version where he discusses the various characters and in this case the very real problems in visualising the Others:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

[Bran Vras]

I know the "thousand years ago" is probably meant as a very long time ago but I never noticed this one before either.

That is a curious statement when we know that there is a weirwood in Riverrun. Is this just a mistake or is she thinking of sacred groves of weirwoods with faces carved on them - they do seem to be absent (does the weirwood at Oldtown have a face?).

Catelyn is obviously mistaken. There are weirwoods in Harrenhal, in the Citadel, in Casterly Rock, in Raventree Hall, in Storm's End, even a young one at the Whispers. The weirwood in Harrenhal has a large mouth, in which Jaqen H'Ghar puts his whole hand.

One thousand years ago is a time so much happened: the Boltons bent the knee to the Starks, Nymeria landed in Dorne, a brother of the Night's Watch last blew a horn thrice, the Wolf's Den was given to the Manderlys (it was perhaps only nine hundred years ago).

[Groat]

Hi guys, this is my first time posting on the Heresy threads so apologies in advance for posting something that has already been discussed a 100 times already. Something interesting I was thinking about with the Night's watch / red priests connection is their colors, black and red. Black and red are targ colors. Do you think there is a connection between both groups' origins that ties into the Targs?

[Elaena Targaryen]

@ mor2 Here is a link that someone else was nice to provide to show that statement in print so you can discuss the possibility of maybe adding it to the wiki or SSM. ( make sure to look at the pictures too, I love the one by John Picacio! )

@ Lummel & Bran Vras That was from Catelyn's first chapter in AGOT ( second chapter in the book ) if you would like to check. It starts "Catelyn had never liked this godswood." and she thinks about the seven so it seems like maybe a contrast between the regions and religions, since this is the first time we hear of any of this. The godswood, heart tree and the North seem erie where the south and the seven sound safer. I also think that some of the weirwoods in the south were cut down and burned but have been replaced or grew again on their own, the weirwood at Riverrun seems to be a younger tree but the weirwood at Raventree Hall is probably the original.

[Bran Vras]

I just had an idea to tie together several things we discussed recently: the Nightfort, Craster, the role of the Blackgate, the recent reform of the Watch.

1) Both archaeology and history tell us that the Nightfort is the most ancient castle on the Wall. Probably the other castles were afterthoughts. Moreover, the Nightfort has the Black Gate as unique feature.

2) As Uncat suggested upthread, the Wall was once a separation between two worlds, with the Black Gate as the only mean of communication. It's plausible that ritual exchanges took place there, perhaps offerings, perhaps sacrifices to the Sidhe, possibly to repel or appease the forces of Winter.

3) The Night's Watch left the Nightfort during the reign of Jaehaerys, probably under pressure from the Iron Throne. The sharp decline in the number of black brothers (from ten thousand to less than one thousand) is another sign of a major reform.

4) We have Craster's offerings to the cold.

5) It's clear that Lord Mormont tolerates and even understands what Craster is doing. He brings him a remarkable axe as a present, treats him with deference and answers firmly any criticism of Craster. He tells Jon with insistence that the Night's Watch needs men like Craster, perhaps in a sense that goes beyond the evident meaning that rangers sometimes take refuge at the keep.

6) It raises the question of whether Craster is continuing what the Night's Watch had been doing before the reform.

I am not sure why the Watch would make sacrifices to the Sidhe. But it makes sense that the Targaryens abolished the practice, just like they made the (not quite) whole north abolish the first night. The explanation comes full circle if the bastard children born out of the first night were given at the Black Gate. (So abolition of the first night went hand in hand with abolition of offerings of newborns at the gate.)

I wanted to make a completely different point when I started this post, but one thought led to another...

@Elaena: You are probably right. The weirwood I mentioned are probably younger than one thousand years. The weirwood of Raventree Hall might not count, since it has been dead for... one thousand years.

[Lummel]

...I was thinking about with the Night's watch / red priests connection is their colors, black and red. Black and red are targ colors. Do you think there is a connection between both groups' origins that ties into the Targs?

Can't say I have thought that but Bran Vras has written about the colour symbolism of red & white. Back in Heresy we have discussed parallel's between the Nights Watch and Rh'llor worship. There's a potential overlap between the Targaryens and Rhlloristas as well (again courtesy of Bran Vras).

The problem with a Targaryen/Night Watch connection is that there doesn't seem to be one (!) historically. I mean the targaryens are new on the westeros scene while the institution of the watch goes back into the mists of time, the Targaryens travelled up to the Wall once and the period of their rule coincides in a sharp decline in the strength of the watch (not neccessarily intentionally, it might just have been a 'peace dividend').

On the other hand Uncat was discussing the apotheosis of the Targaryen's recently and we were wondering if the targaryens (particularly if L+R=J is true) might have some future involvement with the watch and the wall.

If you have a grand idea then we'ed be interested to hear it!

...@ Lummel & Bran Vras That was from Catelyn's first chapter in AGOT ( second chapter in the book ) if you would like to check...

no I believe you! I'm just not sure if this is a GRRM mistake or if character Catelyn was thinking of big sacred groves rather than just all and any weirwoods.

[DragonSpawn]

Do you think we have seen the last of Craster and Mormont?

[Lummel]

Aren't both Craster and Mormont dead? We could see wightCraster and wightMormont I suppose. Their sons still seem to be around though.

[DragonSpawn]

Aren't both Craster and Mormont dead? We could see wightCraster and wightMormont I suppose. Their sons still seem to be around though.

Do you think there might be a difference between the two.. with Mormont being a worshipper of the old gods and Craster sacraficing to the Others?

[Lummel]

Sorry DragonSpawn I don't understand. :dunno:

[DragonSpawn]

Sorry DragonSpawn I don't understand. :dunno:

Just curious whether Craster's sons would bring him back and follow him as a leader and their father? Mormont seemed pretty honourable on the surface... and don't know whether that makes a difference to whether you get the 'cold kiss' or not...?

[Groat]

Can't say I have thought that but Bran Vras has written about the colour symbolism of red & white.

The colors of red and white have always intrugied me. The color of weirwood trees, Ghost, and they're both Targ and Stark family colors (white field with a red dragon). I'll have to read that, sounds interesting.

Back in Heresy we have discussed parallel's between the Nights Watch and Rh'llor worship. There's a potential overlap between the Targaryens and Rhlloristas as well (again courtesy of Bran Vras).

I guess this is my main point. If A overlaps with B, and B overlaps with C, then logically shouldn't there be some overlap of A with C? The red and black color scheme only adds to this idea. I forget where I heard it but there is the idea that the nights watch is Lightbringer, which again has ties to both Rhlloristas (first time I've heard this term but I like it) and back to the Targs.

The problem with a Targaryen/Night Watch connection is that there doesn't seem to be one (!) historically. I mean the targaryens are new on the westeros scene while the institution of the watch goes back into the mists of time, the Targaryens travelled up to the Wall once and the period of their rule coincides in a sharp decline in the strength of the watch (not neccessarily intentionally, it might just have been a 'peace dividend').

Here I agree completely with you. My opinion has been that the worlds of Ice and Fire have always been mutually exclusive, and that essentially before R+L=J, the entire history of the 2 has been seperate and distinct. But we keep coming back to the fact that the nights watch has all these ties to the red priests. I don't know... maybe the nights watch only adopted some of this stuff after Aegon. Maybe the decline in the nights watch has everything to do with the visit the 3 Targs once made to the wall. My opinion though is that there is a connection between the red priests, the watch, and the targs that goes back to the conception of all.

[quote name=Lummel' timestamp='1337175399' post='3208692'

On the other hand Uncat was discussing the apotheosis of the Targaryen's recently and we were wondering if the targaryens (particularly if L+R=J is true) might have some future involvement with the watch and the wall.

If you have a grand idea then we'ed be interested to hear it!

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Black Crow & others,

Was there a So Spake Martin on Brandon the Builder not being the chap who built The Wall? I know we've discussed it, but I was heretofore unaware that GRRM had muddied the waters in so specific a way on that topic.

PS. Black Crow, I think I saw you spreading your heretical ideas on Tower of the Hand the other day. Unless the name & topic were coincidental. I'm "Jerry" over there (Sword of Mid Afternoon was too long a username. sad face.)

[Lummel]

...I guess this is my main point. If A overlaps with B, and B overlaps with C, then logically shouldn't there be some overlap of A with C? The red and black color scheme only adds to this idea. I forget where I heard it but there is the idea that the nights watch is Lightbringer, which again has ties to both Rhlloristas (first time I've heard this term but I like it) and back to the Targs...

Wait..if A=dogs, B=legs, C=tables then (all dogs have legs=True, all tables have legs=true) so all dogs are tables? But I think there is potential for these things to have had a common origin, or that maybe they are all inspired by the same idea or story, or feed off the same source eg the Buddha becomes an incarnation of Vishnu in Hinduism, a Buddhist dialogue becomes accepted as a christian text, Buddhism mingles with Tibetan folk beliefs and becomes a major religion in Japan, they are all separate but spring from the same source.

Could lightbringer be the Night's Watch is Apple Martini's idea. I think I would agree that just because the original lightbringer may have been a sword (well it was in the story, I remember Lykos has a different idea) that's no reason to think that a future lightbringer will be. Certainly may other prophecies and visions haven't been literal -think Jojen's sea wave washing over winterfell and drowning people.

...Was there a So Spake Martin on Brandon the Builder not being the chap who built The Wall? I know we've discussed it, but I was heretofore unaware that GRRM had muddied the waters in so specific a way on that topic...

Yes.

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfel, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attemt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

[Uncat]

On the black and red thing: To bear this colors and be connected to this two pols, would mean you originated from before the time or from the time when black and red split up to form two lines of belives, actions, organizations. Or you (or the author creating you) will have your family be involved in reuniting the two colors.

Option one does not seem to be very probable. The Reds and the Black ones seem to be older then house Targyrian.

Option two might be an option. After all there seems to be some kind of prophecy or vision concerning the PTWP and which led Aegons forbarers to settle down vis-a-vis Westeros.

But number of "seems" in this post shows, that this seems to be a rather wild guess. Though ... who knows?

[Black Crow]

Black Crow & others,

Was there a So Spake Martin on Brandon the Builder not being the chap who built The Wall? I know we've discussed it, but I was heretofore unaware that GRRM had muddied the waters in so specific a way on that topic.

PS. Black Crow, I think I saw you spreading your heretical ideas on Tower of the Hand the other day. Unless the name & topic were coincidental. I'm "Jerry" over there (Sword of Mid Afternoon was too long a username. sad face.)

Not me, I've not been to the Tower although I suppose I ought to.

The quote by GRRM is bugging me because somebody posted it again just the other day - basically he said that the Bran bit was him providing a lendendary backstory for Westeros. Anything big and impressive must have been built by Cran the Builder.

Anybody?

[Lykos]

Yes, Black Crow this is an annoying bit of information.

I liked the idea that Brandon the Builder was building everything, because it would have been proof that he was at least part "Children", but I think I can live with the fact that Old Nan confused all the Brandons and sometimes believed that they were one person. I think it´s still possible in a way.

[Uncat]

Nope, just strong hints, that this is, how Martin wrote it. First of all, in AGOT we are told how Winterfell has growm over time. Then the Wall was most probly not raised by humans at all, not even constructed in an ordinary way but rather raised and kept by very strong magic.

Edit:

What I mean by "growing" is this: WF may have been started by a Brandon, but it started rather small (the Old keep, Bran liked to climb, maybe., So at a closer look, no Grandezza there, that would require a magical builder. The huge curtain wall came much later, when the castle allready had a certain size

[Lummel]

Hey, Black Crow, I had posted that just above you with the link, post 214:

"Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfel, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attemt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos."

It is a 2002 entry from the So Spake Martin collection

[Queen of Winter]

It's not the stories that interweave -- Fevre Dream is set in the pre-Civil war United States -- but certain ideas that overlap, and then they're pumped up a notch in ASOIAF. I would say the most important of these ideas is that of a world occupied by several species of intelligent humanoids. There are only two in Fevre Dream, vampires and humans, there are at least three in ASOIAF, CoTF, the Others and humans. Unless, of course, the Others are all transformed humans . . .

Thanks for the clarification Sand Snake No. 9!