From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Winter's Knight]

Inspired by the discussion in the San/San thread, I'd like to pose this question over here, especially now that we have the benefit of having done a thorough analysis of Sansa's arc in the series. Just how exactly do you feel about Sansa's characterization in AGOT? Was she, as a feminine character, subjected to too much authorial condemnation (never mind that of the readers) for her interest in marriage and children from someone like Joffrey? Why is feminine desire almost always presented as shallow and undignified and potentially disastrous (see Sansa, Dany, Arianne) whilst the male desire for sexy, beautiful women seen in such an understandable, even sympathetic light (see Tyrion, Stannis, Quentyn), with much less emphasis on the negative ramifications of such?

Just my brief thoughts on all this:

1. Sansa's characterization by GRRM in AGOT is honestly a bit of a mess.

2. Dany - unworthy queen, rejects alliance with Quentyn - she only did it cause he wasn't goodlooking!

Had he looked like Gerris she would have married him in a heartbeat!

Sansa- nearly destroyed her family with that selfish, foolish love for Joffrey

Arianne - used her wicked sexuality and went against her father's wise authority

Stannis - he's not really sleeping with Melisandre, and if he is it's because he needs to, he gets no pleasure from the act.

Tyrion - just see the Lady Fossoway passage at the purple wedding

Quentyn - he just needed to be given a chance, he would have proved himself worthy. Why should it matter that he came late and was afraid of his own shadow.

Of course, I've done a bit of generalising here, but essentially these are the reactions that a lot of readers seem to hold, and very little criticism is meted out at these male characters for the role they've played in bringing about the destruction of their houses as a direct consequence of their foolish, shallow desires and unrealistic aspirations.

Jon: the narrative gymnastics Martin goes through to ensure that his tryst with Ygritte remains unbesmirched by oath-breaking could win a couple of gold medals.

I have mentioned in another topic that many of Martin'a subplots feature the Seductor and in only one instance (LF) is the aggressor male.

[Kittykatknits]

Jon: the narrative gymnastics Martin goes through to ensure that his tryst with Ygritte remains unbesmirched by oath-breaking could win a couple of gold medals.

I have mentioned in another topic that many of Martin'a subplots feature the Seductor and in only one instance (LF) is the aggressor male.

Good points and you are right about LF. To take it further, we have multiple instances of women trying to seduce but the men being strong enough to resist. There is Ned with Cersei in GOT, later Davos resists Melisandre's offer, and Jaime turns down Cersei when she comes to him a couple of times. I am trying, and failing, to think of any times where there is the reverse. Maybe someone else can think of one?

[Lummel]

Brienne in Renly's camp - but this is only reported we don't see it.

[greensleeves]

Cat and Littlefinger?

[greensleeves]

Oooh... Jorah and Dany!

Edit: Didn't one of the Kettlebacks try to seduce Margery?

[David Selig]

Asha and Theon? ;)

More seriously, Asha and Tristifer Botley.

[greensleeves]

Sansa and that singer? Does it count that they were interrupted?

[1234567]

Inspired by the discussion in the San/San thread, I'd like to pose this question over here, especially now that we have the benefit of having done a thorough analysis of Sansa's arc in the series. Just how exactly do you feel about Sansa's characterization in AGOT? Was she, as a feminine character, subjected to too much authorial condemnation (never mind that of the readers) for her interest in marriage and children from someone like Joffrey?

Excellent discussion point Brashcandy!

While AGOT was not GRRM's first work, it does appear to be his first major work (in terms of a novel) in a setting that he himself has created and a genre that has some pretty established tropes. GRRM is on record as saying he is trying to create a medieval world where the characters display medieval values which contrasts with many other fantasy novels which are essentially modern day characters in medieval dress. This works better in some places in his work than others and whether it is the characterisation or the varying values throughout the series that cause some of the problems is debatable.

As modern readers, characters like Jon, Arya and Tyrion appeal to us (especially in the first book) as they are the ones who are treated unfairly or share the most sentiments that modern readers can relate to. For a work that is meant to have a medieval mindset, these three characters all display remarkably modern viewpoints at times throughout the series. Sansa on the other hand is a product of her time and background. She is one of the most realistically written characters in the series, but I am not sure GRRM actually knew how to portray a love-struck and naïve teen in the first book, so her characterisation is a tad messy.

Now there is also a general stereotype about people who read fantasy books: namely that they are male, probably have difficulties dating women and invariably have a shit time at high school. While this is a ridiculously over the top assumption, there do seem to be a number of posters who equate Sansa to that mean girl that went to school with, or that girl at high school who would never date them etc. Meanwhile Arya, Tyrion and Jon, maybe the people they visualise themselves being like: essentially cool, but misunderstood. Hang-ups going back to high school can last a lifetime and I do wonder if some of the author's hang-ups are there in the writing or if he is just doing too good a job of creating characters, that people take at face value without considering that the POV is biased.

For example GRRM uses the unreliable narrator technique, but too often it seems as if certain character's viewpoints are taken as gospel. When they do think or do unfair things, it is either not commented on or excused. Because people didn't like Sansa's dreamy outlook and the fact she didn't immediately support in the Arya /Joff fight, people have called her a traitor to her family. Very rarely are Arya’s actions in that incident called into question. If Arya hadn't acted the way she did and instead let Sansa talk to Joff (as she was attempting to do) then Mycah would not have been killed.

After this incident Sansa does hate the Queen and Joff, however her father still intends for her to marry Joff. Joff is then incredibly nice to her. Her father still intends for her to marry him. So as a child it is easier to blame her sister (although still wrong) and try and get on with the family that one day you will be part of. After all the Arya / Joff fight is the only instance Sansa sees of Joff being a prick. Throughout AGOT we see Sansa doing what she has been brought up to do: be a good lady and fit into the family she will be married into. However I don't think there is enough emphasis on that in the text. Certainly Sansa also seems very emotionally cold at times: she doesn't get upset when Ser Hugh of the Vale is killed in front of her. Nor does she get upset about Jory Castell being killed. Her worldview is almost too naive at points in AGOT and I suspect that is a difficulty with writing the character of an 11 year old girl. I think it is much better in the following books.

Why is feminine desire almost always presented as shallow and undignified and potentially disastrous (see Sansa, Dany, Arianne) whilst the male desire for sexy, beautiful women seen in such an understandable, even sympathetic light (see Tyrion, Stannis, Quentyn), with much less emphasis on the negative ramifications of such?

It is not just feminine desire, but women who are feminine that seem to come under criticism. For instance in Jon's first chapter in AGOT this is how he describes Myrcella, who like Sansa is very much a feminine character.

Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was.

Now from later in the story we know that not only is Myrcella not stupid but she is also incredibly brave, but it does show a certain attitude from the view of popular characters, which fandom often takes on board.

Also their femininity is often seen as false. In Arya's first chapter she notes

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment.

Sansa has done nothing wrong here. She is excited that one day she will marry a prince and become Queen. Arya resents this because she can't do it. She then leaves in a huff. Now while we empathize with Arya (because being the plain one is tough) her behaviour walking out in front of the Princess was socially embarrassing. In the time setting people did not do this. Sansa gets upset that her sister breaks social codes and embarrasses her, but as a modern reader we do not feel for her in the same way about social hierarchy and instead view her as being bitchy about Arya, instead of seeing that both girls are distressed about each other.

Also both Tyrion and Arya say practically the same thing about Sansa

Arya

Sansa was too well bred to smile at her disgrace, but Jeyne was smirking on her behalf.

Tyrion

His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear.

In both these comments Sansa has not actually said anything, not because she is too well trained, but because she actually doesn't want to hurt people's feelings. She is incredibly compassionate. The view of both Tyrion and Arya has a lot to do with how they feel about themselves and their projection of characteristics onto Sansa seem to be taken on board by the reader. The only time Sansa has purposefully hurt someone's feelings was when she didn't kneel for Tyrion at her own forced wedding and the grief she gets for that from fandom is immense. The fact that Sansa seems to be the source of problems or embarrassment for two fan favourites: Tyrion and Arya, seems to increase this hatred towards her.

Just my brief thoughts on all this:

1. Sansa's characterization by GRRM in AGOT is honestly a bit of a mess.

2. Dany - unworthy queen, rejects alliance with Quentyn - she only did it cause he wasn't goodlooking!

Had he looked like Gerris she would have married him in a heartbeat!

Sansa- nearly destroyed her family with that selfish, foolish love for Joffrey

Arianne - used her wicked sexuality and went against her father's wise authority

Stannis - he's not really sleeping with Melisandre, and if he is it's because he needs to, he gets no pleasure from the act.

Tyrion - just see the Lady Fossoway passage at the purple wedding

Quentyn - he just needed to be given a chance, he would have proved himself worthy. Why should it matter that he came late and was afraid of his own shadow.

Of course, I've done a bit of generalising here, but essentially these are the reactions that a lot of readers seem to hold, and very little criticism is meted out at these male characters for the role they've played in bringing about the destruction of their houses as a direct consequence of their foolish, shallow desires and unrealistic aspirations.

Fandom gives male characters and female characters who reject feminine traits in favour of masculine ones far less harshly than the very feminine female characters. Doran for example is an idiot. The situation that arose with both Quentyn and Arienne was entirely his fault due to the way he raised both of them. Cersei faces condemnation from Fandom mainly for her sexuality rather than having people tortured to death. LF on the other hand is rarely called out on seducing Lysa and manipulating her for years.

[brashcandy]

My brief and probably totally unhelpful reply is - that's why these books are good to reread. It is very easy to be swept along in, for example, the tyrion POV chapters and because he is clever and witty to miss the nasty sides to his character, you have to start to read between the lines to see that. Similarly Quentyn comes across as such a decent person that it's easy to miss that he's silly and neither as sensible nor as reliable as Prince Doran needed him to be. Stannis, maybe he benefits from the Davos glow, you don't want to believe that Davos would be serving such a flawed and limited character, :dunno: , I'm not in the Stannis fan club.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. The thing is, I love the Sansa of AGOT, but I think one detects in Martin's writing when it comes to her, particularly in that book, a weird inconsistency. He seems much more comfortable narrating Arya's POV and much more invested in Sansa being the one to bear the burden of "SHALLOW FEMALE IN LOVE WITH UNVIRTUOUS MALE BRINGS DISASTER TO FAMILY". I understand that he wants to show Sansa as being largely naive during that period and coming to a shocking awakening, but in some moments like her thoughts after Jory's death and her going to the Queen, it makes me wonder if she wasn't shortchanged in the narrative.

And yes, one is naturally drawn to feeling sympathy for Tyrion and Quentyn, but on reread we see how they are their own worst enemies with Tyrion indulging in a fantasy of a happy home life but struggling to realise that forcing a young girl to marry you was absolutely the wrong way to go about it; and Quentyn not heeding the advice of Dany concerning his inadequacy, but believing that he could be a dragon rider. Of course the women then become the ones who are responsible - either directly or indirectly - of crushing the male fantasy and doing irreparable harm to his self esteem. Think of Sansa refusing to kneel during the motley wedding and Dany having the audacity to laugh at Quentyn when he turns up looking like a beggar.

[Kittykatknits]

Inspired by the discussion in the San/San thread, I'd like to pose this question over here, especially now that we have the benefit of having done a thorough analysis of Sansa's arc in the series. Just how exactly do you feel about Sansa's characterization in AGOT? Was she, as a feminine character, subjected to too much authorial condemnation (never mind that of the readers) for her interest in marriage and children from someone like Joffrey? Why is feminine desire almost always presented as shallow and undignified and potentially disastrous (see Sansa, Dany, Arianne) whilst the male desire for sexy, beautiful women seen in such an understandable, even sympathetic light (see Tyrion, Stannis, Quentyn), with much less emphasis on the negative ramifications of such?

Just my brief thoughts on all this:

1. Sansa's characterization by GRRM in AGOT is honestly a bit of a mess.

2. Dany - unworthy queen, rejects alliance with Quentyn - she only did it cause he wasn't goodlooking!

Had he looked like Gerris she would have married him in a heartbeat!

Sansa- nearly destroyed her family with that selfish, foolish love for Joffrey

Arianne - used her wicked sexuality and went against her father's wise authority

Stannis - he's not really sleeping with Melisandre, and if he is it's because he needs to, he gets no pleasure from the act.

Tyrion - just see the Lady Fossoway passage at the purple wedding

Quentyn - he just needed to be given a chance, he would have proved himself worthy. Why should it matter that he came late and was afraid of his own shadow.

Of course, I've done a bit of generalising here, but essentially these are the reactions that a lot of readers seem to hold, and very little criticism is meted out at these male characters for the role they've played in bringing about the destruction of their houses as a direct consequence of their foolish, shallow desires and unrealistic aspirations.

Well, my short answer to your question is yes. I could talk about this topic quite a bit but sadly, I don't have several hours to sit in front of my laptop to type up the essay that is in my head right now.

I try to look at both authorial intent and reader reaction separately but when it comes to the depiction of certain characters I cannot. Tyrion is the obvious example here. I pointed out in an earlier thread that he is Martin's favorite and GRRM has also stated that he finds Tyrion the easiest character to write. As such, I think he is written with a great deal more sympathy than he should. Lummel pointed out that it was after a re-read that his darker nature was revealed. I did the same thing. Sansa and Cersei require this as well for many readers. I think Martin failed to some degree at creating these characters. At a casual read, Sansa really does come across as naive, stupid, and selfish. Cersei is the same way. She is evil, cruel, a seductress. You miss that Sansa is actually a very smart and compassionate girl. You miss that Cersei has been subjected to physical and sexual abuse by her husband. Or, the reader may notice, but their "bad" acts are so much worse. After all, Cersei dominated and controlled her brother with sex and Sansa killed her father, right? Perhaps the correct way to say this is that Martin is perhaps too succesful at their characterization?

Bottom line, I think Martin was trying to create Sansa as a typical young girl. I just don't think he did a very good job of it. My observation is that many readers take their initial impression of her from GOT and don't change it despite a very profound and complex story arc. Sansa is aware of class differences in GOT but that comes across as her being shallow when rather it shows that she has an understanding of class differences and social boundaries. Her sister Arya does not display this same knowledge at all. She is vilified for killing her father by talking to Cersei yet it is rarely acknowledged that this was a very feminist act for a girl her age in that world.

One last point about Martin. I was much more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until I read a couple of statements regarding Sansa and female characters. The first was his comment that Sansa does share some of the blame in what happened to Ned. That really took me back. The second is an interview he did fairly recently where he dismissed many of the claims that there could be gender bias within his work by stating that many of his readers where women. I can understand his unwillingness to engage in a dialogue at that point but his statement also showed he did not even feel a need to consider differing points of view. After both of these, I've begun to read ASOIAF with a much more critical view on how women are treated and portrayed in the narrative.

Great topic, I have LOTS more to say about it and will be back.

[brashcandy]

For example GRRM uses the unreliable narrator technique, but too often it seems as if certain character's viewpoints are taken as gospel. When they do think or do unfair things, it is either not commented on or excused. Because people didn't like Sansa's dreamy outlook and the fact she didn't immediately support in the Arya /Joff fight, people have called her a traitor to her family. Very rarely are Arya’s actions in that incident called into question. If Arya hadn't acted the way she did and instead let Sansa talk to Joff (as she was attempting to do) then Mycah would not have been killed.

Brilliant post Rapsie. I've said it before, but Arya is a character who is a badly in need of a re-read. So many of her actions and thoughts are taken as gospel and seen as "naturally" right, whereas Sansa is held up to critique after critique. People miss the similarities in the sisters' arcs, so whilst Arya is going through "kick-ass, awesome-cool" training with the FM, Sansa is being further exploited as a pawn of Littlefinger's. There's also little consideration of Arya's rebellion (she's not rebelling, she's just being cool, this is the way all girls should act!) in contrast to Sansa's conformity, and how there are both informed by gender roles and societal norms.

[1234567]

Brilliant post Rapsie. I've said it before, but Arya is a character who is a badly in need of a re-read.

Arya Stark: From Tomboy to Assassin?

[greensleeves]

Well, my short answer to your question is yes. I could talk about this topic quite a bit but sadly, I don't have several hours to sit in front of my laptop to type up the essay that is in my head right now.

I try to look at both authorial intent and reader reaction separately but when it comes to the depiction of certain characters I cannot. Tyrion is the obvious example here. I pointed out in an earlier thread that he is Martin's favorite and GRRM has also stated that he finds Tyrion the easiest character to write. As such, I think he is written with a great deal more sympathy than he should. Lummel pointed out that it was after a re-read that his darker nature was revealed. I did the same thing. Sansa and Cersei require this as well for many readers. I think Martin failed to some degree at creating these characters. At a casual read, Sansa really does come across as naive, stupid, and selfish. Cersei is the same way. She is evil, cruel, a seductress. You miss that Sansa is actually a very smart and compassionate girl. You miss that Cersei has been subjected to physical and sexual abuse by her husband. Or, the reader may notice, but their "bad" acts are so much worse. After all, Cersei dominated and controlled her brother with sex and Sansa killed her father, right? Perhaps the correct way to say this is that Martin is perhaps too succesful at their characterization?

Bottom line, I think Martin was trying to create Sansa as a typical young girl. I just don't think he did a very good job of it. My observation is that many readers take their initial impression of her from GOT and don't change it despite a very profound and complex story arc. Sansa is aware of class differences in GOT but that comes across as her being shallow when rather it shows that she has an understanding of class differences and social boundaries. Her sister Arya does not display this same knowledge at all. She is vilified for killing her father by talking to Cersei yet it is rarely acknowledged that this was a very feminist act for a girl her age in that world.

One last point about Martin. I was much more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until I read a couple of statements regarding Sansa and female characters. The first was his comment that Sansa does share some of the blame in what happened to Ned. That really took me back. The second is an interview he did fairly recently where he dismissed many of the claims that there could be gender bias within his work by stating that many of his readers where women. I can understand his unwillingness to engage in a dialogue at that point but his statement also showed he did not even feel a need to consider differing points of view. After both of these, I've begun to read ASOIAF with a much more critical view on how women are treated and portrayed in the narrative.

Great topic, I have LOTS more to say about it and will be back.

I don't agree. Martin is an author that adores subtelty and is very deliberate about it. These characters aren't real people; everything they are, including their best qualities, comes from him. He also loves nuanced characters. I think Sansa and Cersei are both very deliberate examples of this. Martin has stated that he reads texts carefully while looking for subtle clues and he writes for people who read the same way.

I'm not sure that a wider discussion of Martin's portrayal of gender dynamics belongs here. Maybe you should start a new thread to grind that ax?

[brashcandy]

Arya Stark: From Tomboy to Assassin?

Hhahahahaahah :cheers: :cheers:

[1234567]

Martin has stated that he reads texts carefully while looky for subtle clues and he writes for people who read the same way.

Given the internet and the prevelance of online forums, I wonder if GRRM has lessened his foreshadowing in the later novels. There are so many things that seem glaringly obvious now when you re-read AGOT.

[brashcandy]

I'm not sure that a wider discussion of Martin's portrayal of gender dynamics belongs here. Maybe you should start a new thread to grind that ax?

I'm happy with this thread housing these questions :) We're just expanding the focus on Sansa to include other portrayals of women, and I think it will ultimately enrich our perspective of her character.

[greensleeves]

Given the internet and the prevelance of online forums, I wonder if GRRM has lessened his foreshadowing in the later novels. There are so many things that seem glaringly obvious now when you re-read AGOT.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I kind of hope that he stays away from internet forums.

One piece of supposed foreshadowing from AGOT that I don't know what to think of and still really bothers me: Lady's death

[greensleeves]

I'm happy with this thread housing these questions :) We're just expanding the focus on Sansa to include other portrayals of women, and I think it will ultimately enrich our perspective of her character.

That's fine and I agree... but if we're going to attack Martin on a wider scale should it be hidden at the back of a thread supposedly about a single character where it will likely be missed by those who don't love Sansa?

You will get a small, selective number of contributors instead of a wider discussion. I think that the most thoughtful, perceptive posters post in the Sansa threads, but others may want to chime in.

That being said... I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I was out of line.

[Lyanna Stark]

@Rapsie,

GRRM does apparently stay away from Internet forums, I am guessing partly because it would take a lot of time, but also that it may unduly influence him. Will post more later, but am reading this on the phone while having wine on the balcony and I can't type properly on this thing! :lol:

[brashcandy]

That's fine and I agree... but if we're going to attack Martin on a wider scale should it be hidden at the back of a thread supposedly about a single character where it will likely be missed by those who don't love Sansa?

You will get a small, selective number of contributors instead of a wider discussion. I think that the most thoughtful, perceptive posters post in the Sansa threads, but others may want to chime in.

That being said... I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I was out of line.

Oh no, greensleeves. I know you didn't mean any offence. I mean, it's definitely worth a topic of its own, if someone is so inclined. My point was just that this question was naturally borne out of the discussion on Sansa and it still has relevance to her arc. Ultimately, these are going to be questions we continue to grapple with when we look at any female character, so I don't consider it a thread derail, especially since we've completed the re-read and our discussions will necessarily become much broader.