From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I love this thread and the comments. Makes me appreciate Sansa even more and makes me scarier than ever that GRRM will let her die.

[Lyanna Stark]

c - the incest business is pretty irrelevant since Stannis sent ravens everywhere proclaiming Joffrey and siblings to be abominations born of incest (so don't expect a Sevenmass present from your uncle this year Joff.), even Bran gets to hear of it in ACOK I'm sure. If Sandor thinks that the incest is hot news it just shows how out of touch he is.

Well, I don't know, he uses "but he attacked a prince of the blood" to excuse himself to the BWB (hence the question) but I agree, he should have heard some rumours.

d - is interesting. How long is it from the Purple Wedding to Tyrion's escape? After that Varys presumably doesn't have quite the same freedom to procure information and chase up leads

I got the impression that it was at the very least a couple of days (need to double check my copy of ASOS, I think Tyrion is confined to his room for at least three days, since Pod fails to find Bronn for quite a few days), which should be enough for Varys to lay at least the groundwork for some information gathering.

[Silverin]

Queen Cersei, if it means something I always thought Doran is a huge idiot when it comes to his plans. But I get the feeling sometimes that according to the text I supposed to think that he is this very careful, very wise man. Well I don't. Both him not letting Arianne know about his plans, both the Quentyn mission seem to strengthen my idea, about his lack of intelect, and very poor parenting skills (no wonder his wife left him, and for real, sending away your child, just to be honorable, and make up with Yronwood, seriously what is up whit men and their honours that is more important than their children).

Back on Sansa it is a long time that I was here.

As for her fate, I seem to remember, maybe tyrion said about her that she might outlive them all. That makes me a little optimistic, that she might won't have such horrible life. And that just made me remember something from AGoT. While I too went all awwww puppies about direwolves as well, but the people around were afraid of them and seen them as bad omens, and seriously with their appearance everything went bad. Nymeria is becoming more and more wild as well.

What if whit the death of Lady Sansa actually is free from the curse of the direwolf that is haunting the Stark family? So I guess she won't have to be afraid of the SSSSS (Sudden Stark Suicidal Stupidity Syndrome) that we already know Ned, Robb and Jon caught.

Anyway I just try to grasp into any meaningless clue that might point into the direction of her surviving the series (the same with Myrcella and Tommen).

[redriver]

The Blackwater episode,as written by GRRM,reinforced to me what a political animal Sansa will become.

I think he deliberately emphasized, it whilst playing down the SanSan thing.

[brashcandy]

Lovely insight (from another community) relating to Sansa's interest in the Mya/Lothor relationship:

... the point is, will Sansa be able to accomodate Alayne's world view without her identity collapsing? My favorite part of Alayne is how she projects her own frustrated romance with Sandor onto Lothor/Mya, yet, in spite of being Alayne, she feels herself incapable of identifying with Mya The Bastard, so she keeps going back to whether Lothor might imagine Mya dressed in silks... that Lothor the brute guard loves this girl in silks makes Sansa's fantasy and transference a lot easier, which I always found as the most beautiful sign that Sansa is still Sansa.

[Artemis]

Slightly OT but I have been itching to say this for a long time because Sansa's trials have given me so many ~feels~:

I must say, like some others, when I first started reading the ASoIaF series, I was slightly put off by Sansa for almost the entirety of AGoT except for her last chapter. From then onwards, as a reader, I was truly dumbfounded at the depth of her growth as a character within the series. Even more so, I felt myself awed by her astounding inner resilience and strength whether when she was held hostage in the Red Keep or at the Vale by Littlefinger.

With that being said, I only recently discovered (I'm still a newbie by most standards) that there are many people that pit Sansa and Arya against each other. That absolutely breaks my heart.

Yes, they are seemingly as different as day and night, however, day and night are but two faces of the same coin.

Arya's strength lies in her rebellious nature. Sansa's does not share her sister's nature (initially, now we've seen Sansa rebelling in much more subtle ways!) and there's nothing, not even one little thing, wrong with that. It suited her just fine to be a dutiful young girl (by the way, it drives me insane when some readers suggest that she should be more like Arya and doesn't understand she's being oppressed by Westerosi norms) who knew her manners, graces, and used her charms. The fact is, both of the Stark sisters chose how they wanted to go about their lives. There's nothing anti-feminist about either Arya nor Sansa, especially if you define feminism as a female having the ability to choose and make decisions freely and NOT as "reverting to their stereotypical gender role" by embracing anything that is remotely deemed as "feminine".

Simply put, Arya chose and took pleasure in riding, exploring, adventuring, sword-fighting whilst Sansa chose and took pleasure in sewing, singing, courtly graces, dresses, and other charms.

They both grow on their separate but strangely similar journeys. Arya battles her demons externally (mostly) while Sansa, as a hostage, battles her own internally. Arya uses external disguises and facades to survive, Sansa uses her charms and good graces to survive. They're both remarkably clever (Arya with Jaqen et al, Sansa with Joffrey et al) and both supremely strong. It's the North in them.

I find it a bit disconcerting when people say they are more different than they are alike.

That's absolutely bizarre to me.

If this series has shown me anything it's that the Stark sisters are actually very similar. They have the Wolf-blood, they are of the North, and like the North, they remember the injustices done to their family and themselves and will return much stronger than they were and more importantly, together in spirit and motive.

[Miryana]

I haven't participated in the thread despite being a Sansa fan (a reread felt like too great a time commitment), but whenever I've checked it, it's been a joy to read.

I find it a bit disconcerting when people say they are more different than they are alike.

That's absolutely bizarre to me.

If this series has shown me anything it's that the Stark sisters are actually very similar. They have the Wolf-blood, they are of the North, and like the North, they remember the injustices done to their family and themselves and will return much stronger than they were and more importantly, together in spirit and motive.

I feel that Arya and Sansa are both romantics. Arya's interested in the older definition of romance, the kind that leads her to strike the crown prince when he is treating a helpless boy in an unjust manner and be shocked when she and the boy are punished rather than the prince. Sansa's interested in the more modern definition of romance, beauty and true love, and shocked when people who should have defended her instead become her abusers. But as has been pointed out many times, Arya's kind of romance is celebrated in Western culture for being brave and masculine, while Sansa's romance makes her a silly girl who needs to pay for believing in it. On the TV show, "most girls are idiots" may have been a character appropriate line for Arya but it still made me extremely sad because that attitude is so real and it's used to insult women and men who like conventionally feminine things. IMO, both romances lead to tragedies not because they're inherently wrong but because the sisters find themselves in exceptionally dangerous circumstances. Arya becomes a child who kills rather than the avenging heroine and Sansa becomes a child dealing with sexual abuse rather than the lady who is adored.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lovely insight (from another community) relating to Sansa's interest in the Mya/Lothor relationship:

I read the original and it's beautifully put and I think very true, too. :)

Which also makes it more :idea: when Myranda then grants her some adult wisdom of no, he imagines her naked and then rushes onwards with "you do know what goes on in a marriage bed" just some paragraphs later which Sansa admits that she does and then in her headspace, out of left field, places Sandor in it. You can almost see Sansa doing the mental arithmetics here as she blushes.

I feel that Arya and Sansa are both romantics. Arya's interested in the older definition of romance, the kind that leads her to strike the crown prince when he is treating a helpless boy in an unjust manner and be shocked when she and the boy are punished rather than the prince.

Great point. Throughout, Arya has been interested in justice and revenge and to fight back against injustice. The Faceless Men are trying to remove her feelings of right and wrong, since death is just death, and they do not care whether or not their targets deserves death or not (and I think they question the whole "deserving of death" thing, too). So while Sansa's idealised world of knights, songs and romance is being deconstructed, Arya's world where the bad guys get the justice they deserve and you always know who is good and who is a bad enough person to kill is taking its own hits.

[Raksha the Demon]

Queen Cersei, if it means something I always thought Doran is a huge idiot when it comes to his plans. But I get the feeling sometimes that according to the text I supposed to think that he is this very careful, very wise man. Well I don't. Both him not letting Arianne know about his plans, both the Quentyn mission seem to strengthen my idea, about his lack of intelect, and very poor parenting skills (no wonder his wife left him, and for real, sending away your child, just to be honorable, and make up with Yronwood, seriously what is up whit men and their honours that is more important than their children).

Back on Sansa it is a long time that I was here.

As for her fate, I seem to remember, maybe tyrion said about her that she might outlive them all. That makes me a little optimistic, that she might won't have such horrible life. And that just made me remember something from AGoT. While I too went all awwww puppies about direwolves as well, but the people around were afraid of them and seen them as bad omens, and seriously with their appearance everything went bad. Nymeria is becoming more and more wild as well.

What if whit the death of Lady Sansa actually is free from the curse of the direwolf that is haunting the Stark family? So I guess she won't have to be afraid of the SSSSS (Sudden Stark Suicidal Stupidity Syndrome) that we already know Ned, Robb and Jon caught.

Anyway I just try to grasp into any meaningless clue that might point into the direction of her surviving the series (the same with Myrcella and Tommen).

I don't think the direwolves were themselves any cause of the bad luck that fell upon the Starks. They themselves were just enmeshed in that bad luck. Remember, it's forecast, in an oblique way, that entanglement with the Baratheons will be fatal to the House with the Direwolf sigil (Starks), in the fact that the mother direwolf was killed by the stag that she killed herself. Robert dies as a result of Cersei's reaction to Ned's discovery of her children's paternity; and Robert's fall dooms Ned (it didn't have to, but given Ned's penchant for honor and compassion, that's what ended up happening).

Don't forget, Bran's young direwolf saved him and Catelyn from the assassin. I think Ghost saved Jon once, but I can't remember. Nymeria might well have saved Arya's life or saved her from severe injury by biting Joffrey; Joff was intent on harming Arya at that point. It's also probable that Shaggydog has saved or at least been a great help to Rickon on Skagos.

Wolves and direwolves do not, in my opinion, make great pets; they should live in the wild. If they are raised by people as companions, a castle/fortress full of people and livestock is not necessarily the best place for them to live. The Stark direwolves were all quite young, and not fully come into their wild nature when they leave Winterfell, a year old in the case of Nymeria and Lady and Ghost, Greywind a few months older than that, Shaggydog and Summer at about the age of two years.

The Stark children seem able to exert a phenomenal control over their wolves; probably thanks to their warging abilities, but it is still obvious that they cannot always prevent them from being, well, wolves. Greywind reacts to the Greatjon's verbal attack on Robb by biting off two of the man's fingers; luckily, he's a loyal Stark bannerman and appreciates the strength of both his lord and his lord's sigil-beast. (and has one heckuva sense of humor, too) Shaggydog's ferocity, his unprovoked attack on the kindly Maester Luwin, is either a reflection of Rickon's increasingly savage and unhappy emotional state or a reflection of Rickon's extreme youth and perhaps an inability to control his direwolf because of it (or perhaps Rickon doesn't want to control Shaggydog), or both. I truly believe that if the entire Nymeria/Mycah/Joffrey incident had never happened, and the Stark girls had brought their wolves with them into the palace in King's Landing, the wolves would have been unhappy (probably tethered or confined almost all the time) and would have inevitably struck out at someone and been killed for it. Don't forget, up at Winterfell, the direwolves' little foibles (like biting the Maester) were tolerated because the direwolves were the pets of the Lord's children. Also, Winterfell was surrounded by wild lands, forest; the direwolves could go run around and hunt (and hopefully not invade neighbor farms and munch on their animals, but even so, Lord Stark could have compensated the farmers); there are not that many dog parks in King's Landing, not to mention areas where direwolves can safely frolic.

Nymeria has not only gone wild in the Riverlands, she and her pack are killing innocent people along with their sheep. I wonder if Nymeria's savagery is meant to parallel Arya's descent into darkness and her becoming a killer and then a murderer too. It is notable that Nymeria was the one to pull Catelyn's body out of the river and trying to revive her; the wolf remembers 'her' people and is still loyal to them. I don't see how, though, that Nymeria's pack can be allowed to keep attacking and killing people and their animals; eventually the pack will either have to be dispersed (and hopefully Nymeria returned to Arya's control) or killed.

[Elba the Intoner]

Slightly OT but I have been itching to say this for a long time because Sansa's trials have given me so many ~feels~:

[snip]

With that being said, I only recently discovered (I'm still a newbie by most standards) that there are many people that pit Sansa and Arya against each other. That absolutely breaks my heart.

Yes, they are seemingly as different as day and night, however, day and night are but two faces of the same coin.

Arya's strength lies in her rebellious nature. Sansa's does not share her sister's nature (initially, now we've seen Sansa rebelling in much more subtle ways!) and there's nothing, not even one little thing, wrong with that. It suited her just fine to be a dutiful young girl (by the way, it drives me insane when some readers suggest that she should be more like Arya and doesn't understand she's being oppressed by Westerosi norms) who knew her manners, graces, and used her charms. The fact is, both of the Stark sisters chose how they wanted to go about their lives. There's nothing anti-feminist about either Arya nor Sansa, especially if you define feminism as a female having the ability to choose and make decisions freely and NOT as "reverting to their stereotypical gender role" by embracing anything that is remotely deemed as "feminine".

Simply put, Arya chose and took pleasure in riding, exploring, adventuring, sword-fighting whilst Sansa chose and took pleasure in sewing, singing, courtly graces, dresses, and other charms.

They both grow on their separate but strangely similar journeys. Arya battles her demons externally (mostly) while Sansa, as a hostage, battles her own internally. Arya uses external disguises and facades to survive, Sansa uses her charms and good graces to survive. They're both remarkably clever (Arya with Jaqen et al, Sansa with Joffrey et al) and both supremely strong. It's the North in them.

I find it a bit disconcerting when people say they are more different than they are alike.

That's absolutely bizarre to me.

If this series has shown me anything it's that the Stark sisters are actually very similar. They have the Wolf-blood, they are of the North, and like the North, they remember the injustices done to their family and themselves and will return much stronger than they were and more importantly, together in spirit and motive.

Great points Artemis. The first time I read the books I missed the subtleties of how similar the girls are and took the face value assessment that they are so different. One of the great things about this reread has been realizing how much they are alike and also how similar their character arcs are.

I feel that Arya and Sansa are both romantics. Arya's interested in the older definition of romance, the kind that leads her to strike the crown prince when he is treating a helpless boy in an unjust manner and be shocked when she and the boy are punished rather than the prince. Sansa's interested in the more modern definition of romance, beauty and true love, and shocked when people who should have defended her instead become her abusers. But as has been pointed out many times, Arya's kind of romance is celebrated in Western culture for being brave and masculine, while Sansa's romance makes her a silly girl who needs to pay for believing in it. On the TV show, "most girls are idiots" may have been a character appropriate line for Arya but it still made me extremely sad because that attitude is so real and it's used to insult women and men who like conventionally feminine things. IMO, both romances lead to tragedies not because they're inherently wrong but because the sisters find themselves in exceptionally dangerous circumstances. Arya becomes a child who kills rather than the avenging heroine and Sansa becomes a child dealing with sexual abuse rather than the lady who is adored.

Another great point and I think it gets to the crux of what this discussion has been about the last few pages. It's really jarring when you think about it but saying that Arya is a romantic is very true. I remember somewhere on this thread we were discussing how Sansa is starting to view love and marriage more realistically and coming to terms with sex outside of marriage and for love, and when Petyr tells her how he took her mother's maidenhead Sansa does not seem to be too disturbed about it. But when Arya learns that her father might have been in love with another woman, Ashara Dayne, before her mother, she flips out. Arya is the one romanticizing things in that situation. Another strong example of this in her view of good versus bad is when she learns about how some of the Wolf soldiers are going around pillaging villages and hurting people, and more specifically, how her grandfather Hoster Tully destoyed the village near Riverrun during Robert's rebellion because the lord (forgetting his name right now) did not want to rise up against the king and support the rebellion. I don't have the book in front of me but doesn't she ask if the Lannisters did this and when she is told that it was Hoster Tully she's speechless. It's a signifcant moment where her romantic idealism of right and wrong is really turned on its head.

However, as you said, Arya's kind of romance is celebrated while Sansa's is dismissed as silly and this is the heart of the matter for me. It ticks me off that this seems to happen so often with Sansa. Is this the fault of GRRM or the readers? I tend to think it's the readers, based on their initial concept of how Sansa is portrayed. I love both girls and don't think Sansa is stupid because she likes "girly" things. I was also ticked off about that line in the TV show when Arya says to Tywin that most girls are stupid. It just seemed to reinforce the whole negative perception of femininity being a waste of time. (In fact, I am going to be bold and say the whole Arya Twyin love fest in the show reinforced this sad perception. I know what they were trying to do with it and I even liked the scenes between the two of them at first, but as it kept going on it just went over the top).

As for the comments about Sansa's survival in the end, I was listening to one of my favorite musicals yesterday, Wicked, and some of the words from Defying Gravity really express what I am hoping for with Sansa in the future - opening her eyes and waking from the dreamworld, breaking free and taking flight to take control of her own destiny. The bird and flying references surrounding Sansa have special meaning here as well. Here they are (lyrics by the immensely talented Stephen Schwartz)

Something has changed within me

Something is not the same

I'm through with playing by the rules of someone else's game

Too late for second guessing

Too late to go back to sleep

It's time to trust my instincts, close my eyes and leap!

It's time to try defying gravity

I think I'll try defying gravity

and you can't pull me down

[brashcandy]

I read the original and it's beautifully put and I think very true, too. :)

Which also makes it more :idea: when Myranda then grants her some adult wisdom of no, he imagines her naked and then rushes onwards with "you do know what goes on in a marriage bed" just some paragraphs later which Sansa admits that she does and then in her headspace, out of left field, places Sandor in it. You can almost see Sansa doing the mental arithmetics here as she blushes.

Lyanna, you're on LJ! Give up your identity now woman :)

Oh I know :) I think Martin has decided to plunge her headfirst into this world now, and the time for gradual lessons is over. She's going to have to process a lot of new information and revelations, some of which will be appealing from the perspective of a developing young woman - what Randa tells her about men, and most of which will be pretty daunting and dangerous - basically everything associated with Littlefinger and his plans for her and Sweetrobin.

[Kittykatknits]

Lyanna, you're on LJ! Give up your identity now woman :)

I know who she is but I'll keep her secret identity for her.

And since I'm there as well, where was this quote? How did I miss it?

[brashcandy]

How have I missed the pleasure of having double the fun conversations with Lyanna Stark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or have I been having them all this time and not knowing. :)

[Kittykatknits]

How have I missed the pleasure of having double the fun conversations with Lyanna Stark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or have I been having them all this time and not knowing. :)

She's on there. Just a hidden identity. :)

[Valkyrja]

I've just joined the LJ too (after all these years of resisting)! Glad to have multiple venues for Sansa discussions! :)

I've kept the same avatar on there for now, for easy identification. But it looks like I missed an opportunity to have a hidden identity.....how very Sansa-like! LOL! :P

Sorry....ahem....back on topic.....

As for what HBO!Arya said about most girls being stupid, I felt that this was directed specifically at HBO! Sansa....and I cringed. :( I really do think that D&D view Sansa at that point as not much changed from AGoT Sansa (even then I wouldn't say she was stupid), and have treated her character accordingly.

Er.....wait.......that's not really on topic either. I suppose all I can say is that really wish the showrunners would have taken the time to do a re-read.....or at least to have read this thread!!!!

[brashcandy]

We'll forward them all the FPTP re-read ones and cross our fingers :)

A topic that I'm interesting in discussing again is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Just what do you guys think she ultimately took away from that experience?

[Valkyrja]

Hmmm, honestly.....I I think I have tried to block the marriage to Tyrion from my thoughts. :P

It is one of my least-favourite parts of Sansa's storyline.....I too am still trying to figure out 'what was the point', other than perhaps to keep her from getting raped by Joffrey during this time (as he threatened to do), or to keep her from being married off to someone else (as then LF would not have been able to abscond with her so easily). Any husband other than Tyrion would have been searching for her right away, but of course, Tyrion was accused of the murder and could not do so.

It seems that her marriage to Tyrion, and therefore subsequent 'involvement' in Joffrey's death (even though her involvement in Joffrey's death was actually due to her Tyrell/LF connection), is going to become a plot point again.....at least with the bounty hunters looking for her and the price on her heard, she may have to stand trial at some point, though I *really* don't want to see that.....

[Grail King]

We'll forward them all the FPTP re-read ones and cross our fingers :)

A topic that I'm interesting in discussing again is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Just what do you guys think she ultimately took away from that experience?

Bluntly, she's a piece of meat or object to be bartered or sold for something of greater value.

Sad to type this.

[Winter's Knight]

We'll forward them all the FPTP re-read ones and cross our fingers :)

A topic that I'm interesting in discussing again is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Just what do you guys think she ultimately took away from that experience?

Plot armour against marrying LF or Harry the Heir.

[Winter's Knight]

We'll forward them all the FPTP re-read ones and cross our fingers :)

A topic that I'm interesting in discussing again is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Just what do you guys think she ultimately took away from that experience?

Plot armour against marrying LF or Harry the Heir.