Biggest Plot And Logic Failures (likely Spoilers)

[Newsun]

Also, THE EAGLES, FOR CHRISSAKES THE EAGLES

[Grack21]

eagles wont fly over mt doom

[Sci-2]

I'm also pretty sure eagles would have been taken down by the Nazgul. In any case it seems like there'd be a high probability that the ring was returned to Sauron's hands if they went for an eagle run.

[Grack21]

i doubt they would knowingly carry the ring either

yes i know they fly over mt doom at the end, thats after sauron is kapoot

[Sci-2]

Plus the eagles would likely be tempted as well. Man, imagine an eagle ring-lord?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Yeah, on eagle thing:

- Eagles aren't a taxi service. They don't intervene except for very special occasions.

- Unless your name is Tom Bombadil, the Ring will corrupt you. This includes eagles.

- Eagles are easy to spot. End result: Nazgul-bait.

- To ensure the Ring was dropped into Mount Doom, you'd have to fly pretty close. Given the unique aroma around Orodruin, you may well choke to death first.

[The Marquis de Leech]

why doesn't sauron just Kill Everyone™ before the ring is found?

Because as of T.A. 2941 he wasn't powerful enough (getting your arse kicked by the White Council will make you cautious), and soon after he discovers that the Ring is found. Which scares him because he fully expects Gandalf and company to use it.

why doesn't gollum just take the ring when the hobbitses thieves bagginses are sleeping and accordingly become the ringlord?

Part pragmatism (Sam the wakeful), and part because Slinker/Good Smeagol is trying to keep his obligation to Frodo.

[LuisDantas]

The point in the Bible were its stated that all men have free will. But then Judas is basically forced to betray Jesus, because otherwise the ressurection could not have happened. Seems free will for all men, save Judas, who is then railroaded into hanging himself.

Well done, god, well done.

Somewhat off-topic, but "free will" as a concept does not seem to actually have a meaning.

Far as I can understand it, it is just a name for the idea that something must explain why if the Abrahamic God is supremely good and powerful then existence is nonetheless flawed. Free Will is supposed why, despite not really making sense or being realistic.

[Happy Ent]

The questions why the Eagles didn’t just do it is morally identical to “Why didn’t Manwë just do it?” He certainly could have. But the gods don’t do that any more. They sent the Istari to help the free people against Sauron, and that’s it.

(One may find that silly, but that’s the basis of the morality, in Middle Earth as in Christianity.)

After Sauron is defeated, Manwë sends the Eagles to save the ring bearer, out of courtesy. It does not change the outcome of the war, except for two more Hobbits surviving.

—

There are less interesting tactical interpretations. Even if Manwë’s eagles had been available to Elrond’s council, it’s unclear that it would have worked. Both reasons are mentionend upthread. First, the Eagles would be just as reluctant as Mithrandir to bear the ring. Second, they are extremely magical and probably visible on whatever radar Sauron had. (Remember how uncomfortable Mithrandir was about using magic because he’d announce his presence.) Send Eagles to Mount Doom and Sauron can spot them long before they pass the Argonath. Dispatch Nazgûl on their fell beasts and Bob’s your uncle.

I’m a big Glorfindel groupie and would have liked the solution where he, wearing the Ring, flanked by Gandalf, Elrond and a few other Noldorim had simply walked into Mordor. Better odds than Eagles, I think.

[polishgenius]

I'm all for arguments as to why the Eagles didn't take them in the first place - after all the real reason is 'because then it would be really boring' and therefore I think we can forgive the book for that - but 'because the Nazgul would have got them' is a bad one, since even if the Nazgul had their Fell Beasts available at the time, they were, depending on when you think they should have used the Eagles- from the Shire or from Rivendell/the mountains - either out in Middle Earth on their horses or entirely out of commission while they struggled back home.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Far as I can understand it, it is just a name for the idea that something must explain why if the Abrahamic God is supremely good and powerful then existence is nonetheless flawed. Free Will is supposed why, despite not really making sense or being realistic.

(Preamble: I'm not religious).

Free Will is the doctrine that you make your own choices. It differs from Predestination, where your choices are mapped out before you.

[Lummel]

Well yes, it's like the McGuffin in a Hitchcock story. The point isn't to make a logically coherent and sensible story, but an entertaining one.

But additional kudos to Happy Ent for a scenario in which one does simply walk into Mordor!

[The Marquis de Leech]

Edit: Double Post because site is playing up.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I’m a big Glorfindel groupie and would have liked the solution where he, wearing the Ring, flanked by Gandalf, Elrond and a few other Noldorim had simply walked into Mordor. Better odds than Eagles, I think.

Speaking of Noldorin Elves, I wonder what Feanor would have made of the One Ring. "Call this craftsmanship?!"

[sologdin]

big Glorfindel groupie

you have an opinion as to whether this glorfindel is the glorfindel?

[Reposado]

I'm all for arguments as to why the Eagles didn't take them in the first place - after all the real reason is 'because then it would be really boring' and therefore I think we can forgive the book for that - but 'because the Nazgul would have got them' is a bad one, since even if the Nazgul had their Fell Beasts available at the time, they were, depending on when you think they should have used the Eagles- from the Shire or from Rivendell/the mountains - either out in Middle Earth on their horses or entirely out of commission while they struggled back home.

also couldn't the eagles have carried frodo, who would still bear the ring, albeit for a much smaller amount of time?

[Grack21]

no. the eagles wouldnt carry someone knowingly with the ring

[Nukelavee]

Catch teh eagle's in a doubledog dare!

I DARE you to carry this Hobbit to Mt Doom!

Tim Powers once explained the whole free will thing vs God's all-knowingness to me. If I can find the email, I'll post it.

I hated the way the Final War in Stone Dogs got set off.

A spy good enough to remain in a Draka's household for 20 years, while being in contact with teh Alliance, decides, doing her riskiest task ever, to save her instructions because it's a recording of her brother, a known Alliance space force/intelligence spook

[Arthmail]

Arthmail,

How was Judas forced to suicide?

Well, Jesus really loses the spark if he'd just kept on living, perhaps becoming fat like Elvis and dying on the toilet, perhaps just starting a successful carpentry business with the boys and wandering through Galilee. I mean, his entire arc was part of the mythology that god was willing to sacrifice his only son in order to wash away the sins of men. (Incidenteally, sins that men bore before they were born, which implies that god cares even less for free will, or at the least that his sense of fairness is seriously shit.)

So in order to work the best the PR campaign in history, Jesus had to be sacrificed. In order for that to happen, to make it really tragic, someone had to betray him. Considering that it seemed like Judas actually loved the guy, there is a strong implication that Judas was forced by the hand of god to betray - i mean, withouth that betrayal it might have been somone else, but the tragic arc of betrayal is so much more poigniant.

Then Judas, who has been crafted by god only to betray his son, is left as a traitor for a few silver pieces. I mean, if he didn't care about betraying Jesus, then why did he hang himself. So he was almost forced against his will to betray Jesus, and then god just gave him back his free will.

I mean, if someone had controlled me into betraying my best friend, and then left, suicide might seem like a good option. Ergo, he was pretty much forced into it.

[Contrarius]

I mean, if someone had controlled me into betraying my best friend, and then left, suicide might seem like a good option. Ergo, he was pretty much forced into it.

Ehhh, I'm not buyin' your analysis. You're seeing it post facto. I'm not Christian -- I'm agnostic bordering on atheistic, in fact -- but even I can see that it's awfully easy to fit your interpretation to your own desires after the story's over.

You are saying -- the Bible has this message, therefore the events were crafted to fit the message. But the reality could just as easily be -- the events happened this way, resulting in this message.

Am I expressing myself clearly? Will try again later if this doesn't make any sense.