Sci-2 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Arthmail is starting with the idea that God has a plan as a prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Arthmail is starting with the idea that God has a plan as a prior.That doesn't necessarily change anything, depending on your definition of "plan". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Rhinos Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Egwene and the role she ascends to in Wheel of Time. It's completely nonsensical that anyone would give her that position. I mean, if someone had controlled me into betraying my best friend, and then left, suicide might seem like a good option. Ergo, he was pretty much forced into it. Then again he may have been a true believer who simply wanted Jesus to stop messing around and get on with the show. After all, Jesus is the messiah who is going to restore the Kingdom of Israel. Judas just was trying to find a way to force him out of his hippy peace and love sermons and healing the sick phase and into his smiting Romans and their lackeys phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reposado Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Egwene and the role she ascends to in Wheel of Time. It's completely nonsensical that anyone would give her that position.does it have to be literature? along this line, going from being fired as high school guidance counselor to dean of admissions in friday night lights is pretty ridiculous. but the plot required it, so that coach could sacrifice his career in the finale.and they umm, almost made it make sense. she impressed the search committee by saying the college should admit more dumb kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 big Glorfindel groupieyou have an opinion as to whether this glorfindel is the glorfindel?Tolkien said that this Glorfindel is the Glorfindel. I think we can safely assume though that this Legolas isn't the Legolas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmail Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Ehhh, I'm not buyin' your analysis. You're seeing it post facto. I'm not Christian -- I'm agnostic bordering on atheistic, in fact -- but even I can see that it's awfully easy to fit your interpretation to your own desires after the story's over.You are saying -- the Bible has this message, therefore the events were crafted to fit the message. But the reality could just as easily be -- the events happened this way, resulting in this message.Am I expressing myself clearly? Will try again later if this doesn't make any sense.Except that in order for Jesus to have a point, to make his sacrifice as "meaningful" as it was, Jesus had to die. Had to. Frick, large sections of the bible, and certainly of Christianity, are predicated on the notion of Jesus dying to absolve our sins. Without the death, Jesus is just like the other semi-prophetic guys wandering around Galilee at the time. The death and ressurection make him something more - ie, the son of god.So if it HAD to happen, if it was part of gods plan (and i'm only going off of the Bible here. I was raised RC but i'm atheist now). If it was part of gods PLAN, then somehow Jesus had to end up on that cross. As has been mentioned before, Jesus just lit out whenever anyone in authority was looking for him - until this event. Jesus told his disciples well in advance that someone was going to betray him. Judas was standing right fucking there, heard it, and still did it. Then after he did it, he hung himself in shame.Judas was predestined to betray Jesus because the ressurection and the myth of Jesus was made all the more powerful for the betrayal and the death. He had no free will, even though the bible explicitly states that men are born with free will. (which is why Christopher Walken as Gabriel was so pissed off in the Prophecy). If Jesus had not been killed and reborn, he would have just been another dude wandering around in robes, much like Simon of Peraea,Then again he may have been a true believer who simply wanted Jesus to stop messing around and get on with the show. After all, Jesus is the messiah who is going to restore the Kingdom of Israel. Judas just was trying to find a way to force him out of his hippy peace and love sermons and healing the sick phase and into his smiting Romans and their lackeys phase.If he thought betraying him was a good idea, why'd he hang himself after? If he was a true believer, peace would have come before violence - a truth many modern day christians don't seem to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Except that in order for Jesus to have a point, to make his sacrifice as "meaningful" as it was, Jesus had to die. Had to. Frick, large sections of the bible, and certainly of Christianity, are predicated on the notion of Jesus dying to absolve our sins. Without the death, Jesus is just like the other semi-prophetic guys wandering around Galilee at the time. The death and ressurection make him something more - ie, the son of god.But --You have no way of knowing how many erstwhile Messiahs may have preceded Jesus, but somehow or other failed to fulfill all the criteria -- they didn't get crucified, they didn't happen to live in a time of conflict between Romans and Jews, whatever. Perhaps this Jesus guy just happened to come along at the right time for all the details to fall into line.Apparently, Judaism has a sort of mythos that potential messiahs are born into every generation. But they only become full fledged Messiahs if all the external conditions happen to be right during their lifetimes. Using this interpretation, Jesus just happened to be the one who was born in conjunction with the external conditions that got him into the Bible.As has been mentioned before, Jesus just lit out whenever anyone in authority was looking for him - until this event. Jesus told his disciples well in advance that someone was going to betray him. Judas was standing right fucking there, heard it, and still did it. Then after he did it, he hung himself in shame.Well, it wouldn't take a genius or a Messiah to realize that betrayal was a likely scenario for a revolutionary leader like that. And Judas wouldn't be the first person in history to have a change of heart after the fact, either.Judas was predestined to betray Jesus because the ressurection and the myth of Jesus was made all the more powerful for the betrayal and the death.Nope, you're seeing it backwards again. Saying that "it happened that way" and "it was more powerful because it happened that way" isn't at all the same thing as saying "this particular guy was predestined to make it happen that way".Let's see if I can make some sort of analogy......A very simplified example: I set up a simple maze, like a T maze. I put several mice into it. I put cheese at the end of one arm of the maze. I can predict with utmost certainty that the cheese will be eaten. Is this therefore predestined to happen? The mice aren't being forced to eat the cheese. Individually, they have "free choice" in regards to the cheese. But the external circumstances strongly favor cheese eating. And whichever mouse gets there first will probably do the eating. So was that mouse predestined to eat it? Or was he simply faster, smarter, or hungrier than the other mice?Depending on the knowledge base of the observer and the complexity of the conditions, it can be very easy to predict future events without "predestining" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Contrarius -1) I have to say, I think just about every time I hear more about Judaic legends I realize how awesome they are.2) Isn't the cheese eating scenario, when applied to Judas, kinda-sorta entrapment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Contrarius -1) I have to say, I think just about every time I hear more about Judaic legends I realize how awesome they are.Yeah, I liked that one. Speaking of learning from fiction -- I learned about this one from reading The Yiddish Policemen's Union, then confirmed it on the net.2) Isn't the cheese eating scenario, when applied to Judas, kinda-sorta entrapment?I don't think so. For instance, in my maze, I don't have to carry the mouse over to the cheese and stick it under his nose. The mouse has the choice to go seek out the cheese for himself. And the more complex the environment gets, the more choices the mouse (or Judas) has. The choice is always up to the mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Rhinos Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 If he thought betraying him was a good idea, why'd he hang himself after? If he was a true believer, peace would have come before violence - a truth many modern day christians don't seem to understand. Because Jesus didn't kick Roman ass like he was suppose to. Instead he let himself be tortured to death. Judas's plan didn't turn out at all like he'd hoped.So why are you using the version of Judas death found in Matthew and not the version of his death from the book of Acts? And why are you ignoring the most blatant explanation for Judas's actions? As soon as Judas took the bread' date=' Satan entered into him. [/quote'] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Side note:Helen Luke notes that Judas's punishment in Inferno, to be eternally devoured by Satan, is shared by Brutus and Cassius.As such, the great crime of Judas isn't betraying a god but rather betraying a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 IIRC, the inferno lays out the fourth level of cocytus as punishment for those who have betrayed their lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yep, in ascending order of evil:- Betrayal of friends- Betrayal of family- Betrayal of the public- Betrayal of your rightful lord.That's why Dante would regard Jaime Lannister as the most evil man in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Callers Only Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Herp-a-derp tribal punishment ladder (only if you don't get away with it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reposado Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yep, in ascending order of evil:- Betrayal of friends- Betrayal of family- Betrayal of the public- Betrayal of your rightful lord.That's why Dante would regard Jaime Lannister as the most evil man in Westeros.and roose bolton, the castameres, etcwhich makes it crazy that there were only three in human history by Dante's timethe last level should be, "betrayed your rightful lord in a way so that absolutely everyone knew about it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukelavee Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Where Arth's point is being misread is that, really, he's discussing the sacrifice with the assumption Christ was teh Son of God.Contrarius is discussing it in terms of "did this events happen for real, and if they did, was teh myth added to make Christ the Son of God?Within the belief system, Arthmail is right - Christ had to be sacrificed. However, to my way of thinking, the sacrifice wasn't dying. Think about it.If you were teh Son of God, you would know God and Heaven exist. A sacrifice requires giving something of value, losing it, basically. If Christ was God's sacrifice, there must be a point where God is risking an aspect of itself, or it's all a scam (remember, from within teh belief system). Myself, I think the moment occurs not when Christ dies, but when he asks why his Father has foresaken him, because he's on the verge of giving in to despair, one of the 7 deadlies.Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Biggest Logical failure ever - Giving Robert Newcomb a book deal.Yeah I went there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 giving in to despair, one of the 7 deadlies.?Anger, Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Wrath, Lust, Pride right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagilki Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Counting is the 9th Sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 This only applies to the movie LotR, but man, seriously. Leave Perrin behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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