Historical events and people that are reflected in the story

[Ludd]

Apple

Brilliant until you get to Daeron

I see

Richard III - Tyrion

Henry IV - Ned

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple

Brilliant until you get to Daeron

I see

Richard III - Tyrion

Henry IV - Ned

I see Tyrion and Jaime as being a separation of Anthony Woodville. Tyrion has Woodville's brains and his love of travel, Jaime has his epitome of knighthood.

I see Ned as being a better-behaved, more honorable William Hastings.

And I think Stannis is our Richard III, with Renly co-starring as George, Duke of Clarence.

[danm_999]

It's obvious Martin based his ouerve on the Brady Bunch. Pointing it out at this point just feels redundant, but nevertheless.

Ned Stark is Mike Brady, an upstanding family man with children from a previous lover. He has a strong sense of right and wrong, and quits his job in A Very Brady Christmas when he refuses to cut corners on a building development. I think we can all agree this was the direct inspiration for Ned's resignation as Hand of the King on the Daenerys assassination plot, which, like Ned's decision, was eventually vindicated.

Catelyn Stark is Carol Brady, another classic archetype of the traditional wife and mother, but with a twist. Both have past relationships with men that never worked out, both cope with the difficulty of raising stepsons, and both evolve beyond their stay at home roles into challenging careers in real estate, and royal diplomacy/citizen's arrest vigilantism/psychopathic undead feudal terrorism respectively.

Robb Stark is, unsurprisingly, Greg Brady. A leader and traditionally confident figure amongst his siblings and peers. Greg's ascension to the attic in the original series mirrors Robb Stark's ascension to Kinghood, and his classic catch phrase "something suddenly came up" to extracate himself from awkward dates is clearly the inspiration for Robb's breaking of the Frey betrothal.

Sansa and Arya, are, unsurprisingly, Marcia and Jan, with a similar sororal relationship. The former's brutal beating by Ser Meryn Trant and anxiety over he bruised face a clear callback to the seminal football to the nose incident amongst the Brady's.

Defying the parallels between age relation, Bobby, the youngest Brady boy, is actually the inspiration for Bran, given both were paralysed from waist down as a result of a racing car accident and Jaime Lannister's attempted homicide respectively.

And Vargo Hoat is obviously CIndy Brady, as both had rather pronounced speech impediments.

Martin also utilised several meta conventions of the series to fill out the themes of his story; the crazy behind the scenes incest, the idea of uniting houses, and the late in the game addition of Cousin Oliver to boost ratings, clearly mirrored by the re-emergence of Aegon Targaryen.

[Minstral]

The Targaryens are more like Normans. The Normans were descendants of old Franco-Roman families in the same way that the Targs are Valyrian. The only resemblance to Egyptian history with the Targs I see is the brother-sister marriages.

The Dance of the Dragons is almost an exact mirror of the conflict between Stephen and Matilda, not the Wars of the Roses. The king (Henry I, Viserys I) wanted his daughter (Matilda, Rhaenyra) named heir, the nobles rallied around a male (Stephen, Aegon II; Stephen was Matilda's cousin and not her brother, that's really the only difference). The guy defeated the woman, but in the end her son (Henry II, Aegon III) became king.

The Wars of the Roses was a dynastic battle between two cousin houses (York and Lancaster) that shared a common ancestor (Edward III). In this story, House Baratheon are the Yorks and the Targs are the Lancasters, broadly, with Aegon V being the primary common ancestor.

I cannot truly agree with your analysis here about Baratheons=York and the Targs=Lancaster. On the other hand, I tend to view the war of the five Kings as the way of showing Stark=York and Lannister=Lancaster. I suppose in the context of Robert's Rebellion they are.

Though Normans were not decedents of Romans, they were several viking clans that swore fealty to the Franks for lands.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I cannot truly agree with your analysis here about Baratheons=York and the Targs=Lancaster. On the other hand, I tend to view the war of the five Kings as the way of showing Stark=York and Lannister=Lancaster. I suppose in the context of Robert's Rebellion they are.

Sorry but that's how I see it. It's pretty clearcut to me. While the Wars of the Roses are kind of the "jumping off" point, the rest of the story, i.e. the War of the Five Kings and beyond, goes off and does its own thing. Parts of the War of the Five Kings mirror pieces of the Wars of the Roses, like Stannis killing Renly, but the overall cousin-on-cousin conflict is straight-up Targ/Baratheon.

[Minstral]

Sorry but that's how I see it. It's pretty clearcut to me. While the Wars of the Roses are kind of the "jumping off" point, the rest of the story, i.e. the War of the Five Kings and beyond, goes off and does its own thing. Parts of the War of the Five Kings mirror pieces of the Wars of the Roses, like Stannis killing Renly, but the overall cousin-on-cousin conflict is straight-up Targ/Baratheon.

I am not saying that it is a clear cut example between this historical war and the events of the War of the five kings. I believe that more characters equate to each other from say House stark and house of York. Edward the fourth (a yorkist king of england) of house york = Robb Stark in his actions and abilities. For the Lannisters Cersei=Margeret of Anjou, an unpopular queen who seemingly ruled her mentally unstable husband and executed people promised protection.

The third duke of York, Richard, died to the Lancastrians when he lost a battle to them. Margert of Anjou removed his head and put a paper crown on it. While there was no mockery done to Ned in this manner, he did nonetheless lose his head. But this is admittedly an imperfect comparison, for I see more of Tywin's character in Richard's actions. He had to fund troops in France himself when he was put in charge of affairs during the 100 year war when he should have received the funds from the Crown. he was sidelined to the seemingly incompetent duke of Somerset, who was later blamed for the loss of English occupied territories in France. He suffered many slights which seemingly prompted his actions to dislodge house Lancaster form the throne.

[danm_999]

I cannot truly agree with your analysis here about Baratheons=York and the Targs=Lancaster. On the other hand, I tend to view the war of the five Kings as the way of showing Stark=York and Lannister=Lancaster. I suppose in the context of Robert's Rebellion they are.

Though Normans were not decedents of Romans, they were several viking clans that swore fealty to the Franks for lands.

I think Baratheons as York is pretty solid; they're both exercising a rather far back claim to the Throne that passes through a matrilineal claim, but is essence they're put on the Throne because of military might. Robert is Edward IV, the powerful warrior who overthrows an unpopular dynasty and becomes fat. Richard III is Stannis, right down to proclaiming his nephews bastards after their father died. Cersei is part Elizabeth Woodville, a former Lancastrian supporter whose family sooned swamped all the important positions surrounding the King, much like the Lannisters do.

The Starks struck me more as the Percys or the Nevilles; Northern Houses whose hotheaded sons were responsible for causing widespread factionalism.

I mean, you'll never get these things 100% (else George would just be written a historical adaptation), but I think the beats are pretty similar here.

[Rolex Baratheon]

through her intelligence, beauty, and strategy she hoddwinked two of the most powerful men in the World at the time

Cersei sucks at stuff like that.

EDIT: Except the beauty part!

[Brandon the Shipwright]

Aegon I is William the Conqueror. Valyria is rome with dragons, and the Doom is like the fall of the Roman Empire combined with the myth of Atlantis. The Wall is based on Hadrian's Wall, and the Ironborn previously ruling the Riverlands resembles the Danelaw, an area of England that was ruled by the Vikings.

[Knight Of Winter]

My take on Cersei:

Cersei=Agrippina the Younger

Agrippina was Roman lady who lived in 1st century AD, most famous as empess of Emperor Claudius and mother of Emperor Nero. Daughter of a famous general (like Cersei), at young age she was married to much older Ahenobarbus. It was not a happy marriage, and when after Agrippina finally got pregnant after years of marriage, her husband suspected that his unborn son (later emperor Nero), was not fathered by him, but by Agrippina's brother Caligula (unlike Robert, who never had a clue).

Years of power struggles in Roman court have corrupted Agrippina's character (another parallel). Having witnessed intrigues, schemes, plots and betrayals, she came to conclusion that only secure way of surviving was to become the most powerful player - the empress. (Cersei also did everyting she could to become Queen Regent. As LF says - "Cersei craves for power, but does't know what to do with it once she gets it".) So, after her uncle emperor Claudius killed his previous wife, Agrippina sucessfully seduced him and thus become empress. Her next step was ensuring that her son Nero gets the position of heir apparent instead of Claudius' son Britannicus (like Cersei did everything, no matter the cost, to ensure Joffrey interhits the throne. Both Agrippina and Cersei seem to have equated well-being and happines with power. As the story goes, a seer told Agrippina that she will lose one eye so that her son could become emperor, to which she replied: "Let him become an emperor and he can have both of my eyes". Very Cerseih replay, IMO).

The marriage lasted 5 years, during which Agrippina kept an affair with richest men in the empire - minister of finances Pallas (well, Cersei kept an affair with son of the richest men in the kingdom). After Claudius learned of said affair, Agrippina knew she had to act quickly (as did Cersei), so she poisoned some moshrooms her husband was fond of (Cersei poisoned wine).

Thus Agrippina achieved all the ever hoped for - her son became new emperor (like Joffrey did), and she became honoured and valued advisor. However, the relationship between mother and son began to deteriorate quickly. Power-hungry Nero soon became tired of his mother's "guidance" (same case with Joffrey), so he removed her from position of power and replaced Pallas as minister. Agrippina responed by plotting against Nero, and when that failed, she seduced her own son (similary, whenever Cersei feels threatened or wants to see her bidding done - she charms men around her. It worked with Kettleblacks, it failed with Ned, and Cersei commented on how it would fail with Stannis). When she fell from emperor's grace again, Nero gave her no second chance, but simply had her assassinated. (one could speculate that Joffrey would do the same given few years. Actually, Nero and Joffrey had a lot in common too - both were incompetent and crazy rulers)

As a final similarity, I'll note their apparent fondess of incest: Agrippina bedded with her uncle and then with her son, Cersei with her brother and cousin.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

As a final similarity, I'll note their apparent fondess of incest: Agrippina bedded with her uncle and then with her son, Cersei with her brother and cousin.

This part makes me laugh, because I can now only imagine Cersei with a 'hitlist' of male relatives - "Jaime - done, Lancel - done, Devan - next"

[Scipio Africanus]

Fake Aegon = Perkin Warbeck

The whole fake Aegon buisiness reminds me of the Russian Time of Troubles as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_Dmitris

The Targaryens are more like Normans. The Normans were descendants of old Franco-Roman families in the same way that the Targs are Valyrian. The only resemblance to Egyptian history with the Targs I see is the brother-sister marriages.

The Normans were decended from Vikings who settled in in an area in nothern France later called Normandy. But yeah they did intermingle with the locals, although the Targs generally didn't actually.

[Elba the Intoner]

Maiden's day is NOT like May day which was an old fertility festival - the absolute opposite of maiden's day - actually it was maiden no more day. I country England just 150 years ago May day was a bigger festival than Xmas

Sure, I get that Maiden's day and May day are not the same. As someone said upthread, if George was keeping things in history exactly the same he would just be writing an historical novel. I just said Maiden's day reminded me of May day. Their names even sound similar.

[Harald Hard-Ruler]

I've mentioned this before in other threads but I'll say it again in case some people haven't heard of them before.

The "Golden Company" has quite a bit in common with the "White Company". They were a mercenary group active in the 14th century in Italy (the real world equivalent of the free cities), like the Golden Company they were made up mostly expatriates from all over the world but especially Britain (hence the other name they went by English Company), they were also famous for their reliability and word of honour (rare for free companies). In 1361 it had 3500 cavalry and 2000 infantry according to a Wikipedia article I just pulled up. They are pretty well known for the Battle of Canturino (1363) where they defeated another free company the "Great Company" and the Battle of Castagnaro (1387) where Sir John Hawkwood commander of the White Company is said to have had his greatest victory.

[Danelle]

Yesterday I went to the Cleopatra exhibit at the Los Angeles science center, and was struck by the story of her life, and the way Egypt and Rome clashed, yet relied upon each other. I also feel like I had heard this story before.

I can't help but to feel that Cleopatra has a huge hand in the way GRRM wrote Cersei. She was beautiful, and through her intelligence, beauty, and strategy she hoddwinked two of the most powerful men in the World at the time. That, and she excelled in chemistry when it came to cosmetics and the use of poison which she used to eradicate those who would oppose her. All this she did with a "sweet as honey with poison underneath" demeanor.

There was also an event where she gloated that she could spend Marc Antony under the table, and to prove it she dropped a priceless gold and pearl earring into her wine goblet and drained it until it was empty.

The Egyptians also had the tradition of marrying brother to sister, mother to son, etc. This was seen from Cleopatras ancestors, but it started when her ancestor Alexander the Great conquered.....who else do we know that was a conqueror and married sisters?

I also went to a museum recently that had a huge display on the Tudor lineage, and I see a lot of Elizabeth I in Cersei as well. Plus just some of the whole story that began the Tudor reign (That event being the War of the Roses), is very, very much like what has happened in the history of Westeros.

In a way I can't help but feel that Westeros very much reflects England, to where Valyria is very much Egypt (the capitol Alexandria was destroyed by a "doom" of natural disasters as well), to where places like Asshai and such are predominantly Asia like.

Ι always thought that Cleopatra had a few similarities with Dany. Ptolemaic Egypt was an era when the people of the country had to face different influences and Cleopatra as a regent had to deal with different cultures: Greek, Roman and Egyptian. Dany is proud of her Valyrian heritage, which sets her apart from the different cultures of Westeros and Essos. Still she is a Westerosi but she has lived in Essos her whole life. Cleopatra was from the famly of Lagus, the father of Ptolemy. They practised incest only after they declared themselves kings of Egypt. They were following the tradition of the pharaohs, who married their sisters, following the example of Osiris and Isis. As far as I know, Alexander the Great did not practise incest. In fact he married Roxana, a Bactrian princess in an attempt to ensure peace with all the subjects of his empire and ensure that people from different cultures would live in peace.Just like the Targaryens, the Ptolemies were fond of particular names: Ptolemy for men and Cleopatra for women. Cleopatra was not expected to rule, because she was the younger of her family, just like Dany. Both women managed to emerge as powerful monarchs in a turbulent era.

As for Valyria, I think that it is a combination of Pompeii and Atlantis, whereas Essos could be influenced by Babylon and cultures in Mesopotamia.

[Danelle]

My take on Cersei:

Cersei=Agrippina the Younger

Agrippina was Roman lady who lived in 1st century AD, most famous as empess of Emperor Claudius and mother of Emperor Nero. Daughter of a famous general (like Cersei), at young age she was married to much older Ahenobarbus. It was not a happy marriage, and when after Agrippina finally got pregnant after years of marriage, her husband suspected that his unborn son (later emperor Nero), was not fathered by him, but by Agrippina's brother Caligula (unlike Robert, who never had a clue).

Years of power struggles in Roman court have corrupted Agrippina's character (another parallel). Having witnessed intrigues, schemes, plots and betrayals, she came to conclusion that only secure way of surviving was to become the most powerful player - the empress. (Cersei also did everyting she could to become Queen Regent. As LF says - "Cersei craves for power, but does't know what to do with it once she gets it".) So, after her uncle emperor Claudius killed his previous wife, Agrippina sucessfully seduced him and thus become empress. Her next step was ensuring that her son Nero gets the position of heir apparent instead of Claudius' son Britannicus (like Cersei did everything, no matter the cost, to ensure Joffrey interhits the throne. Both Agrippina and Cersei seem to have equated well-being and happines with power. As the story goes, a seer told Agrippina that she will lose one eye so that her son could become emperor, to which she replied: "Let him become an emperor and he can have both of my eyes". Very Cerseih replay, IMO).

The marriage lasted 5 years, during which Agrippina kept an affair with richest men in the empire - minister of finances Pallas (well, Cersei kept an affair with son of the richest men in the kingdom). After Claudius learned of said affair, Agrippina knew she had to act quickly (as did Cersei), so she poisoned some moshrooms her husband was fond of (Cersei poisoned wine).

Thus Agrippina achieved all the ever hoped for - her son became new emperor (like Joffrey did), and she became honoured and valued advisor. However, the relationship between mother and son began to deteriorate quickly. Power-hungry Nero soon became tired of his mother's "guidance" (same case with Joffrey), so he removed her from position of power and replaced Pallas as minister. Agrippina responed by plotting against Nero, and when that failed, she seduced her own son (similary, whenever Cersei feels threatened or wants to see her bidding done - she charms men around her. It worked with Kettleblacks, it failed with Ned, and Cersei commented on how it would fail with Stannis). When she fell from emperor's grace again, Nero gave her no second chance, but simply had her assassinated. (one could speculate that Joffrey would do the same given few years. Actually, Nero and Joffrey had a lot in common too - both were incompetent and crazy rulers)

As a final similarity, I'll note their apparent fondess of incest: Agrippina bedded with her uncle and then with her son, Cersei with her brother and cousin.

:agree: Absolutely agree about Agrippina!

Also, Bran and Rickon might be a vague reference to the princes in the Tower.

[Castel]

I did a search but I didn't see it. The salting of Ghis by Valyria represents the apocryphal story of Rome salting Carthage.

[RedStag]

I did a search but I didn't see it. The salting of Ghis by Valyria represents the apocryphal story of Rome salting Carthage.

Too bad there was no Hannibal figure. It would have been great to see those Valyrians getting their asses kicked on home ground for 15 years.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Robert is more of an exact Henry VIII. When he was young, he was bold, handsome and admirable. When he was older and had been king for a while, he became very fat and was increasingly drunk for the remainder of his life. Except without the 6 wives, although I suppose that's because Henry VIII never met Cersei :laugh:

Margaery's situation being accused of various infidelities and her arrest on Maidens Day (which reminds me of May day) seems to be almost exactly what happened to Anne Boleyn. Cersei even thought that she'd like to find a way to accuse Loras along with the other men, and Anne's brother was accused for real. I'm thinking things aren't looking so good for Margaery and her trial right now.

The Targaryens are more like Normans. The Normans were descendants of old Franco-Roman families in the same way that the Targs are Valyrian. The only resemblance to Egyptian history with the Targs I see is the brother-sister marriages.

The Dance of the Dragons is almost an exact mirror of the conflict between Stephen and Matilda, not the Wars of the Roses. The king (Henry I, Viserys I) wanted his daughter (Matilda, Rhaenyra) named heir, the nobles rallied around a male (Stephen, Aegon II; Stephen was Matilda's cousin and not her brother, that's really the only difference). The guy defeated the woman, but in the end her son (Henry II, Aegon III) became king.

The Wars of the Roses was a dynastic battle between two cousin houses (York and Lancaster) that shared a common ancestor (Edward III). In this story, House Baratheon are the Yorks and the Targs are the Lancasters, broadly, with Aegon V being the primary common ancestor.

I agree wholeheartedly with all these comments and they reflect a discussion I've started on another thread with the parallels in the themes of ASoIaF with British history but concentrating in the main and more specifically on the population waves of Britain and those of Westeros - the CotF, FM, Andals, Rhoynar, Valyrians and Targs (didn't know about this one I'm sorry).

However, just to add if Jon Snow is confirmed as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, is verified as AAR and is also confirmed to be the PtwP, then I see a strong parallel with Jon and Henry VII.

Henry VII claimed ancestry from King Arthur - through his descent from some of the ancient Welsh Princes - and commissioned genealogies to "confirm" this, rode through Wales with the banner of the red dragon and named his firstborn son, Arthur. He also united the Houses of York and Lancaster and put an end to the Wars of the Roses (well until his son, Henry acceded and started persecuting the Poles, the Staffords and the Nevilles anyway).

Just as Jon could be Azor Ahai reborn, Henry claimed to be the second coming of Arthur and to top it off, they even share some similar physical characteristics such as the long oval face, grey eyes and dark hair and complexion. Henry was also known as the "Winter King".

[Max Greyjoy]

I thought of Richard III and Stannis having similar parallels. Both take the throne out not out of list for power, but out of duty. And Richard III is villiainized (mostly thanks to the Tudors) but Stannis is villiainized as well.