GRRM confirms that Dany has some heat immunity, but what is the point?

[bbstark]

I was not suggesting osmosis of any kind. i am saying the Targaryens bodies could have naturally adapted to the heat by responding to their surroundings AKA pet dragons everywhere for 1000's of years.

And I meant that none of the things you suggested existed in the books, not in real life.

Also thank you for your condescension yet again. All i meant by natural darwin adaptation was plain adaptation which is a 'thing' and it is absolutely nothing like osmosis, no idea where you got that.

fires are on the order of 1000 degrees hot. Flesh of any kind melts at that temperature, there's really not much adaptation that could happen there... like what did you think would happen, they would naturally start developing skin cells made of Kevlar?

Look I'm sorry, don't mean to offend, but you're toeing the line of pseudoscience, and it doesn't work in this context.

[UVA]

If magic can raise people from the dead, I wonder what else can magic do...

We may never know...

[Ruby Chevrolet]

That doesn't seem to be the way warging works. I wasn't arguing against fire-resistent Dany, merely the "natural Darwin adaptation" that was posited to cause the Targs to develop this trait.

Okay, I understand your point better now.

I think Suzanna Stormborn started this topic out of an interest in getting people's ideas about how Daenerys' heat resistance developed or why it might be important to the story. This got bogged down in a preliminary debate about whether Daenerys has any heat resistance at all. This seems to be a very controversial subject for reasons that are beyond me.

Which is a shame, because the discussion Suzanna is trying to start could be pretty interesting. I'd say the Targaryen abilities come from the same place as the Stark abilities and that it probably has to do with genetics and environment. A little bit of nature and a little bit of nuture. So the blood is important but hanging around dragons (or direwolves) matters too.

I also think birth and death are important. Daenerys first survived a fire when her dragons were born and her child died. Robb Stark and Jon Snow found the direwolves right when the wolf-pups were being born and their mother was dying.

So this could really be a fun discussion if the underlying premise wasn't so controversial.

[butterbumps!]

I was not suggesting osmosis of any kind. i am saying the Targaryens bodies could have naturally adapted to the heat by responding to their surroundings AKA pet dragons everywhere for 1000's of years.

And I meant that none of the things you suggested existed in the books, not in real life.

I know you meant "natural selection;" however, the way you presented this at first suggested you believed that the mere proximity of Valyrian and dragon would result in the two sharing traits (which would be a kind of osmosis).

But I'll tell you why your theory does not work. Those exposed to the hottest prolonged temperatures due to dragons were the pre-Braavosi slaves who toiled in the volcanoes in scalding conditions amidst dragons and firewyrms. They sure as shit did not develop heat tolerance by proxy to these extreme temperatures.

Prolonged interaction with dragons does not appear to be the cause of whatever fire resistance the Targs posses, given that this sort of adaptation did not create a gene mutation for the Valyrian slaves who chose to leave or die rather than be exposed to this forever. There's a different factor.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

fires are on the order of 1000 degrees hot. Flesh of any kind melts at that temperature, there's really not much adaptation that could happen there... like what did you think would happen, they would naturally start developing skin cells made of Kevlar?

Look I'm sorry, don't mean to offend, but you're toeing the line of pseudoscience, and it doesn't work in this context.

It was just an idea, trying to stay on topic. I would like to know other people's thoughts on how the targ's developed a high-tolerance to heat, so much tolerance that it separated them from 'ordinary people'.

There had to have been an original cause. I was just speculating....... feel free to offer an idea :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I know you meant "natural selection;" however, the way you presented this at first suggested you believed that the mere proximity of Valyrian and dragon would result in the two sharing traits (which would be a kind of osmosis).

But I'll tell you why your theory does not work. Those exposed to the hottest prolonged temperatures due to dragons were the pre-Braavosi slaves who toiled in the volcanoes in scalding conditions amidst dragons and firewyrms. They sure as shit did not develop heat tolerance by proxy to these extreme temperatures.

Prolonged interaction with dragons does not appear to be the cause of whatever fire resistance the Targs posses, given that this sort of adaptation did not create a gene mutation for the Valyrian slaves who chose to leave or die rather than be exposed to this forever. There's a different factor.

That's very true, so my speculation is probably not right. If it did not come from the proximity to dragons then it must be something else. maybe one of the ancient targaryens mated with a fire-god at some point, greek mythology style??

[bbstark]

It was just an idea, trying to stay on topic. I would like to know other people's thoughts on how the targ's developed a high-tolerance to heat, so much tolerance that it separated them from 'ordinary people'.

There had to have been an original cause. I was just speculating....... feel free to offer an idea :)

here's my real problem with it: Martin has explicitly said that the way he handles magic in his work is by leaving the mechanics of it a mystery on purpose. So more like LOTR, where magic is more like a force of nature, yet mysterious in how it works, than Harry Potter for instance, where there's a definite mechanics to it, the wizards actually learn.

So, if he did mention that in the pyre she didn't burn because it was a magical event, I don't think we can speculate on the mechancs of how that works, because in the scope of his work, those mechanics don't exist.

However, he did say she has more heat tolerence than Westerosi... well, Valyria seems to be fairly close to Mereen, and the climate there appears to be of Mediterrenean like to desert like.Couldn't it just be acclimation? Like the Starks and the Northerners can handle cold better?

There was a line by Osha in the book that

"as a babe I used to suckle icecicles"

Now THAT's insanity to me!

I'm more astounded by the ridiculously low temperatures that the wildlings can endure than a steaming hot bath. I'm afraid there might not be much to it :(

[butterbumps!]

That's very true, so my speculation is probably not right. If it did not come from the proximity to dragons then it must be something else. maybe one of the ancient targaryens mated with a fire-god at some point, greek mythology style??

lol, you were upset with me for bringing up centaurs, but now posit mating with fire gods "Greek myth style?"

Anyway, I don't think the Targ heat resistance is truly anything more than the way the Starks favor the cold because of the environment they are used to. Some Targs couldn't tolerate the heat (see Viserys). Sometimes, Dany herself cannot tolerate the heat (see how she swelters at the fighting pit before Drogon comes). Various Targs died spectacularly from fire-related injuries. Dany herself has gotten burned, as has Jon.

If there's any significance, it might be a clue that Targs' love of heat puts them at a disadvantage in cold weather the way Ned practically melts while in KL (my first response in this thread was only half joking).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

here's my real problem with it: Martin has explicitly said that the way he handles magic in his work is by leaving the mechanics of it a mystery on purpose. So more like LOTR, where magic is more like a force of nature, yet mysterious in how it works, than Harry Potter for instance, where there's a definite mechanics to it, the wizards actually learn.

So, if he did mention that in the pyre she didn't burn because it was a magical event, I don't think we can speculate on the mechancs of how that works, because in the scope of his work, those mechanics don't exist.

However, he did say she has more heat tolerence than Westerosi... well, Valyria seems to be fairly close to Mereen, and the climate there appears to be of Mediterrenean like to desert like.Couldn't it just be acclimation? Like the Starks and the Northerners can handle cold better?

There was a line by Osha in the book that

"as a babe I used to suckle icecicles"

Now THAT's insanity to me!

I'm more astounded by the ridiculously low temperatures that the wildlings can endure than a steaming hot bath. I'm afraid there might not be much to it :(

I agree the wildling life is unfathomable to me, especially with no goretex or thinsulate. but we are talking about family traits in the Targaryen line. Their family has not been living in the heat of Valyria for 300 years, yet people in the family still have the high-heat-tolerance. the wildlings are also adapting to their environment, but that is a whole tribe of people who are currently living in the cold, not one family who are passing traits down from generation to generation.

[bbstark]

I agree the wildling life is unfathomable to me, especially with no goretex or thinsulate. but we are talking about family traits in the Targaryen line. Their family has not been living in the heat of Valyria for 300 years, yet people in the family still have the high-heat-tolerance. the wildlings are also adapting to their environment, but that is a whole tribe of people who are currently living in the cold, not one family who are passing traits down from generation to generation.

well we only have one sample from Valyria, that's the Targaryans. Maybe all Valyrians are heat-lovers?

Also, you can't argue that point, unless you place some Wildlings into Dorne (for instance) and see what happens.

ETA: all I'm really trying to say is that this might be simply a completely natural family trait, nothing magical or "special" about it. It's not that I don't find the Targs interesting/mysterious, I just don't think that this is a point of interest.

[Dr. Pepper]

Okay, I understand your point better now.

I think Suzanna Stormborn started this topic out of an interest in getting people's ideas about how Daenerys' heat resistance developed or why it might be important to the story. This got bogged down in a preliminary debate about whether Daenerys has any heat resistance at all. This seems to be a very controversial subject for reasons that are beyond me.

Which is a shame, because the discussion Suzanna is trying to start could be pretty interesting. I'd say the Targaryen abilities come from the same place as the Stark abilities and that it probably has to do with genetics and environment. A little bit of nature and a little bit of nuture. So the blood is important but hanging around dragons (or direwolves) matters too.

I also think birth and death are important. Daenerys first survived a fire when her dragons were born and her child died. Robb Stark and Jon Snow found the direwolves right when the wolf-pups were being born and their mother was dying.

So this could really be a fun discussion if the underlying premise wasn't so controversial.

I think the premise of the discussion could be interesting and is not at all controversial. What is the point of introducing the idea of Targaryen fire immunity? Early in the thread I wrote a small bit about Maester Thomax's book, Dragonkin. This book is about the history of House Targaryen, specifically how they went from a Varlyrian family in exile to one who obtained a status on par with the gods in Westeros. The book title also includes a consideration on the life and death of dragons.

Here is the entire title of the book: Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons.

The reason this topic becomes controversial is because some want to argue that Targaryens are in fact immune or resistant to heat and fire, despite what the text and the author tells us. Part of their god-like status in Westeros included such things as an immunity or resistance to heat and fire or to illness, which were things they claimed that no other had. In the D&E novels, we see that Egg and Dunk fully buy into this propaganda. We know from the text this propaganda isn't true.

Until there is agreement that this propaganda isn't true, we can't really get to what the point is in introducing the idea of Targaryen fire/heat immunity/tolerance/resistance. In the books, Dany is uncomfortable in the heat, she is burned, she is never touched by dragonfire, and her baths are not hot enough to make people suspicious. The Targaryens are a family who reached too high in their quest for power and eventually they all got burnt, whether metaphorically or physically. The Lannisters are another such family who we are witnessing reaching too far and getting burnt. Half of what Tywin says about the Lannisters echoes a lot of what Viserys had to say about the Targaryens.

I think the title of Thomax's book is exactly the point of introducing the idea that Targaryens thought themselves so special that they were immune to things like heat and illness.

[caravaggio]

Well I recently read a study of real humans that suggests there are slight variations in subcutanious fat patterns from race to race. Caucasians (generally) had thicker skin folds than people descending from (mid and southern) Africa. The paper theorizes that this is an adaptation humans developed to better survive their environments. The thicker patterns of Caucasians were much better at insulating, while the thinner patterns of Africans were better and conducting heat away from the body.

Another study of Inuits found that they had a much higher tolerance for cold weather when compared to the average human.

I think it is possible Valyrians, having settled in a tropical environment, developed similar characteristics.

Dany has no immunity or resistance to fire.

Dany can stand it being a little hotter than your average Joe as all Targaryens can.

[DavosSeaworthy]

To be fair, the Targs did ride the dragons for a period of time. Throughout history, you don't really see Starks riding direwolves, Lannisters with lions, Baratheons with stags. or Arryns with falcons. If any house deserved to actually take their sigil seriously, then it's the Targaryens. But yes, the post-dragon Targs like Viserys were too fanatical.

As a relentless Stark supporter, an arguement could be made that the Starks took the Direwolf as their sigil because they probably had a few wargs and this was the animal of choice for them.

[GoldenFleece]

You are a biologist ? Maybe you can help me with my homework ?

lol sure why not, pm me!

[GoldenFleece]

haha, thanks, ok that's what i thought. I didn't mean did anyone know in real life, I meant, had it been mentioned in any of the books anywhere. But your above post is spot on! Thank you for saying that. There is no way someone's hair could burn off like that without affecting the scalp at all like the second time in the fighting pit. I think the higher tolerance to heat that Targaryens posses which 'ordinary' people do not posses must lie in the Epidermis right? Although I also think that her lungs must be able to tolerate heat at a higher capacity as well since in THOTU she was in a room completely filled with smoke and fire and had no problems breathing at all. Plus at the end of DwD when Drogon burns the horse and they both start eating it. They start eating it immediately, she just reaches her hands in and starts chomping down. Now the fat on the horse would be too hot to touch right after Drogon burned the entire thing alive. It would be scalding hot fat and not only does hse plunge her hands into it, but she shoves it right in her mouth as well. Seems like It would be too hot and charred for her to eat. Which is backed up by the fact that drogon immediately starts eating it as well. and we know he likes his meat blackened and smoldering, and he always burns his prey then eats it first thing. Just a point i noticed.

You have to realise that science does not respond to a fantasy novel. I can't really answer your questions. Of course a normal human being could not withstand the pyre (whether through fire or smoke). The more a read DwD, the more it seems to me that she has resistance to flame(apart from her hair), not heat. I can't say what the burnt horse means at the end of DwD other than symbolic, she is eating the horse, she is head of the Dothraki.

[cade]

Okay, I understand your point better now.

I think Suzanna Stormborn started this topic out of an interest in getting people's ideas about how Daenerys' heat resistance developed or why it might be important to the story. This got bogged down in a preliminary debate about whether Daenerys has any heat resistance at all. This seems to be a very controversial subject for reasons that are beyond me.

Which is a shame, because the discussion Suzanna is trying to start could be pretty interesting. I'd say the Targaryen abilities come from the same place as the Stark abilities and that it probably has to do with genetics and environment. A little bit of nature and a little bit of nuture. So the blood is important but hanging around dragons (or direwolves) matters too.

I also think birth and death are important. Daenerys first survived a fire when her dragons were born and her child died. Robb Stark and Jon Snow found the direwolves right when the wolf-pups were being born and their mother was dying.

So this could really be a fun discussion if the underlying premise wasn't so controversial.

I agree, which is why for the purposes of this discussion I think it's best to ignore those who don't accept the premise GRRM has strongly alluded to in the books and in the quote cited by the OP. If people really think he was just saying noble peoples have higher tolerance to heat because they more often take hot baths, that's fine by me and I couldn't care less. Likewise for those who use science to argue against the Targaryens having a special connection to dragons or any special abilities thereby related. They are welcome to do that, but I don't see the relevance, as we're dealing with a world of magic and the author has said he intends to keep it largely mysterious.

As for the topic itself, with the caveat that I haven't fully researched this, I tend to subscribe to the theory I've seen posted elsewhere that the Targaryens practiced blood magic to bind themselves (one method being the dragon horns) and their genetic line to dragons, and that this is what gives Dany a higher tolerance to dragonfire, if not heat and/or fire in general. It might not have much relevance going forward, but maybe it will help protect Dany when she's riding a fire-breathing Drogon during battle.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I think the premise of the discussion could be interesting and is not at all controversial. What is the point of introducing the idea of Targaryen fire immunity? Early in the thread I wrote a small bit about Maester Thomax's book, Dragonkin. This book is about the history of House Targaryen, specifically how they went from a Varlyrian family in exile to one who obtained a status on par with the gods in Westeros. The book title also includes a consideration on the life and death of dragons.

Here is the entire title of the book: Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons.

The reason this topic becomes controversial is because some want to argue that Targaryens are in fact immune or resistant to heat and fire, despite what the text and the author tells us. Part of their god-like status in Westeros included such things as an immunity or resistance to heat and fire or to illness, which were things they claimed that no other had. In the D&E novels, we see that Egg and Dunk fully buy into this propaganda. We know from the text this propaganda isn't true.

Until there is agreement that this propaganda isn't true, we can't really get to what the point is in introducing the idea of Targaryen fire/heat immunity/tolerance/resistance. In the books, Dany is uncomfortable in the heat, she is burned, she is never touched by dragonfire, and her baths are not hot enough to make people suspicious. The Targaryens are a family who reached too high in their quest for power and eventually they all got burnt, whether metaphorically or physically. The Lannisters are another such family who we are witnessing reaching too far and getting burnt. Half of what Tywin says about the Lannisters echoes a lot of what Viserys had to say about the Targaryens.

I think the title of Thomax's book is exactly the point of introducing the idea that Targaryens thought themselves so special that they were immune to things like heat and illness.

Okay. I hear what you are saying. If I follow you, you are saying Dunk and Egg think Egg has some heat resistance but they are mistaken (perhaps because Egg's family decided not to warn him that this was just propaganda?). Daenerys thinks she has some heat resistance because she survived the funeral pyre and the pit with Drogon but she is mistaken. Daenerys walked out of the funeral pyre due to magic that had nothing to do with her or her son's Targaryen blood. And Daenerys showed no unusual heat resistance in the pit with Drogon because Drogon breathed fire on other people but when he tried to hit her he missed. And the reason you think all this is because Mr Martin said Targaryens are not fireproof but they are more resistant to heat than normal people.

Does that capture it? Because if so, I think it is pretty thin. It wishes away so many facts provided in the stories.

To me the question is not whether Daenerys has some resistance to heat. It is why she does, and how it might matter as the plot continues to unfold.

[Angalin]

If you don't have anything to add to the thread, don't bother to post. Random chitchat belongs in TTTNE.

[Ygrain]

Well I recently read a study of real humans that suggests there are slight variations in subcutanious fat patterns from race to race. Caucasians (generally) had thicker skin folds than people descending from (mid and southern) Africa. The paper theorizes that this is an adaptation humans developed to better survive their environments. The thicker patterns of Caucasians were much better at insulating, while the thinner patterns of Africans were better and conducting heat away from the body.

Another study of Inuits found that they had a much higher tolerance for cold weather when compared to the average human.

I think it is possible Valyrians, having settled in a tropical environment, developed similar characteristics.

Dany has no immunity or resistance to fire.

Dany can stand it being a little hotter than your average Joe as all Targaryens can.

THIS.

I would also add that to get one's head burnt, you don't need your head engulfed in flames, it's enough to get a tip of long hair close to fire.

[IRON BANK]

Shaw: Are all the Targaryans immune to fire?

Martin: No, no Targaryans are immune to fire. The thing with Dany and the dragons, that was just a one-time magical event, very special and unique. The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more heat than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that, but that doesn't mean they're totally immune to fire, no. Dragons, on the other hand, are pretty much immune to fire.

^{He is saying that she does have some fire resistance. She is not totally immune to fire, nor is the rest of her family, but at least this finally explains why she has been basically unscathed all the time she was around Drogon's fire (THOTU and the fighting pit in DwD).}

Yes she can be burned by hot metal, but she has higher heat tolerance than all other people alive in the books today. Aegon V showed similar traits in D&E, pointed out by Dunk several times in the short stories

Aerion Brightflame drank that Wildfire for a reason. Him and some members of his family showed traits of the heat resistance, so he thought his body could handle consuming the wildfire, obviously he was wrong and stupid. But IMO he would not have just done it for no reason, he wasn't completely insane during his life, this decision was a bad one but his families history made him believe it would be possible.

My question is, what is the purpose of the high tolerance to heat?

And maybe this is a stupid question, but, How did the Targaryens actually get 'the Blood of the Dragon' Did a Targaryen mate with a dragon at some point in old Valyria??

What is the purpose of GRRM putting the slight heat resistance in the books for this one family?

Is it only because Targaryens have Dragons as pets and for them to be heat resistant is convenient?

Grrm has stated that he doesn't like the magic in his books to be like a recipe; then anyone in the books will be able to duplicate it, or it will tip the reader as to say oh this plot device is coming so this character will use so and so magical power. The magic being vague leaves the wonderment of the action, and heightens anticipation for the reader.