Whats the chances that Dany is the bad guy and Jaime is the good?

[jakelucas]

One of them pushed a kid out of a window, and the other one was a kid, in exile with a legit claim to the throne hunted by killers.

Whats the chances that Jaime turns out to be a misunderstood anti hero, who finds redemption and Dany turns out to be an ego maniacal, Nero in waiting, who causes nothing but chaos in her attempts to destroy the old order and eventually starts sacrificing kids to the gods, and sending in unsullied with wildfire vests on to blow up civilian areas, or drops them from dragons like drone strikes?

[Chaircat Meow]

None at all.

Dany has done some questionable things but she is not a Nero figure in anyway, imo.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

with a legit claim to the throne hunted by killers.

Since the Targs lost the throne she has no legit claim. Also there were no killers.

[Tagganaro]

There is always a chance I suppose, but not very likely.

I did find Jaime the child-pusher out of windows much more sympathetic as of AFFC/ADWD than Dany "I am the Blood of the Dragon. Do not presume to teach me Lessons".

But yeah, I'm not really sure GRRM is just gonna turn Dany into a total bad guy, and likewise I don't think Jaime will be completely good. Both will have to make compromises to get what they want.

[therealbando]

The expression "grey character" is thrown around a lot, and I don`t particularly like it, but in the case of these 2 I think it applies perfectly. Neither Dany, nor Jaime are perfectly good or bad guys.

I don`t buy the whole "Dany will turn into the main villain of the series" theories, and that Jaime will somehow "redeem" himself for some of the horrible things he has done, they will remain the same complex characters that everyone loves/ hates.

None at all.

Dany has done some questionable things but she is not a Nero figure in anyway, imo.

:agree: The Nero comparison does seem far fetched.

Since the Targs lost the throne she has no legit claim. Also there were no killers.

:agree: New dynasty means no claim for the old one.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Dany will probably become the bad guy, as she is turning crazier with every second. Mad Dany, destroyer of Westeros.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Since the Targs lost the throne she has no legit claim. Also there were no killers.

Wrong and wrong. The Targaryens built that kingdom. If anyone can be said to have a "legitimate" claim (and I lean towards "no, only the person who can hold it should have it,"), it is they.

We watched at least one assassination attempt. There is no conclusive evidence, if I recall, as to whether King Bob had ever sent any others, but there can be no denying that he sent at least one killer.

[jakelucas]

When i saw the show today, and the bath tub scene was playing out, every word about the mad king and fire reminded me of Dany.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Wrong and wrong. The Targaryens built that kingdom. If anyone can be said to have a "legitimate" claim (and I lean towards "no, only the person who can hold it should have it,"), it is they.

wrong. Baratheons won the throne by the right of conquest same as the Targs.

We watched at least one assassination attempt. There is no conclusive evidence, if I recall, as to whether King Bob had ever sent any others, but there can be no denying that he sent at least one killer.

Wrong again. We know from Robert that there was no assasin.

[Maester Tormund]

Wrong and wrong. The Targaryens built that kingdom. If anyone can be said to have a "legitimate" claim (and I lean towards "no, only the person who can hold it should have it,"), it is they.

We watched at least one assassination attempt. There is no conclusive evidence, if I recall, as to whether King Bob had ever sent any others, but there can be no denying that he sent at least one killer.

But they couldn't hold it, could they?

[Tumnas the Torpid]

wrong. Baratheons won the throne by the right of conquest same as the Targs.

Wrong again. We know from Robert that there was no assasin.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I had thought "right of conquest" was a turn of phrase, not an actual concept with legal force. Even if we accept that definition of legitimate, all that means is anyone at all has a legitimate claim - so long as they have the swords to back it up.

If you can point me to something more conclusive than his, "I should have killed them all years ago," line (or whatever the specific language was), you might be able to convince me. If all you're going on is that bit of dialogue (I want to say it's between Ned and Bob on the Kingsroad?), it is, at least, concievable that he is actually lamenting the failure of earlier assassination attempts.

Nevertheless, Robert inarguably sent an assassin during A Game of Thrones, so, "no killers," is a conclusively incorrect statement.

[giant snake]

Whats the chances that Dany is the bad guy and Jaime is the good?

I think that is a fairly accurate summary of what has been happening. I think that it is a symbolic scene where Jaime and Tyrion split and go in different directions. Also where are they going? Jaime to end the war and, maybe for the first time ever, fulfill his oath as a knight. Tyrion is going to kill his father and join up with the Dragon Queen.

I think it is going too far to say that Dany is going to become a simple bad guy, but when you see the decisions she has made in Dance, it's obvious that she has either become frivolous and despotic or that she is under the influence of sorcery. I'm sure that theory has been brought up before. It's alluded to in the book multiple times, and her last meeting with The Green Grace basically spells it out for you. How this will affect her in the future, I don't know. I look forward to reading it, either way.

Jaime is most definitely a redeemed character. The things he did - pushing Bran out of a window, ruthlessly having the Stark men killed - were the actions of a man who felt that he could not go lower. Pride in his abilities and his narcissism was the only thing keeping him upright. Losing the hand that killed his king was almost a strange type of baptism for him, robbing him of his shame and his pride all at once, forcing him to be his own man for the first time in his life. I seriously doubt that he's going to come to insignificance in the next book, even if his House does.

[Northbound]

Well, I've never thought that Jamie was a horrible person. Other than pushing Bran from the window, I could careless about what he did to the Mad King and anything else he has done. I think, I would have done the same. To me, Jamie became a broken character and now he is rebuilding his life and I feel it's for the better. I do not doubt he will die in the end and I think it will be an honorable death. I really hope that he is the one to choke sister to death.

As for Dany, when I first started to read the series; she was my hero and the one I was pulling for to win the Throne. Hell, I even wished that she and Jon; would become lovers and that she took him as her king. I have since changed my mind on the whole Dany/Jon thing.....it became to childish of an ending for me. However, Dany has lost my support in aDwD. I don't feel she is worthy of the Throne.....yet. I'm not going to go through the reasons for my change in stance, don't feel I need too. I still have hope for her in the end. In the coming books, there will be massive loss of life when she invades the seven kingdoms and I don't think she is going to care. It is my hope, that during the aftermath of her invasion, she has a "Stannis" moment and learns of the threat from the Others. This is when she can redeem herself, in my eyes and goes north to face them. I want her to fight for "her" kingdom, not fight the kingdom, so she can gain the throne. I do not know, if she will live through the final battle....and if I'm honest, at this point, I do not want her too. However, It is my hope that her death will be in a heroic manner

[Tumnas the Torpid]

But they couldn't hold it, could they?

If you notice, that turn of phrase came within a paranthetical statement wherein I was casting doubt on the entire idea of a, "legitimate claim." Thus, it can not really function in the "gotcha" manner in which you use it here, as it was, on its face, not intended to support the idea of a legitimate Targaryen claim.

[Roadside Rose]

One of them pushed a kid out of a window, and the other one was a kid, in exile with a legit claim to the throne hunted by killers.

Whats the chances that Jaime turns out to be a misunderstood anti hero, who finds redemption and Dany turns out to be an ego maniacal, Nero in waiting, who causes nothing but chaos in her attempts to destroy the old order and eventually starts sacrificing kids to the gods, and sending in unsullied with wildfire vests on to blow up civilian areas, or drops them from dragons like drone strikes?

I think that would be really cool and interesting.

But besides the Bran Stark incident, overall I think Jaime is a good guy and has changed since his hand incident.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

There's no good or bad side

there are different POV

that's why Martin did that, so we can make our choices to whom we would support

of course there are evil characters like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton, but the most part are grey characters (I know some people get annoyed about this stuff about grey characthers, but it's true)

[jakelucas]

There's no good or bad side

there are different POV

that's why Martin did that, so we can make our choices to whom we would support

of course there are evil characters like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton, but the most part are grey characters (I know some people get annoyed about this stuff about grey characthers, but it's true)

I dont think its inconceivable that a grey pov character can turn into an irredeemably dark one. Tragedies are built on less.

We could even lose them altogether and see them only in the third person.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_conquest

The right of conquest is the right of a conqueror to territory taken by force of arms.

I can't find the exact quote but Robert said that he wanted to send assasins and Jon always stopped him. So there was no assasin.

[therealbando]

http://en.wikipedia....ght_of_conquest

I can't find the exact quote but Robert said that he wanted to send assasins and Jon always stopped him. So there was no assasin.

There was the wine dweller from AGoT, but that`s the only one we know of. There could have been other ones, but I doubt it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There was the wine dweller from AGoT, but that`s the only one we know of. There could have been other ones, but I doubt it.

:agree: only one no one else.