The Bastard of Walton Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 OK. What are the other possible reasons?You're failing to recognize that monarchists take very seriously who is supposed to have the throne, if it isn't the person actually there. In real life, after the Stuarts were ousted from the throne of Great Britain in 1688 by the House of Orange, there was a huge movement of English and Irish exiles that fought many, many wars to restore the Stuarts. Having a "claim" to the throne is not a meaningless thing that pretenders say, it has value to people who respect the tradition and authority behind the throne.In essence, disrupting a line of succession is very similar to disregarding the monarchy entirely. That's why legitimacy is important. If you can crown Renly even though Stannis is his elder, then that means your younger brother can also claim your father's house before you.Well put this. I'm still fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexastor Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Zero. GRRM's characters are neither good or bad. All of them are something in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cade Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Depends on how you determine that. In a lot of stories, anyone trying to install themself dictator would be considered a villain, but the state of Westeros is so rotten that instead fans debate who has the "right" to be dictator and root for their favorite to take the throne. Given that Dany seems to be the most intensely disliked character here, with many already declaring her a villain, I won't be surprised if that conclusion holds for a great many through the end of the story, but I doubt it will be a conclusion I agree with or even find reasonable. In the context of this cruel world we're observing, I think it's extremely farfetched that Dany will become a villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagon Greyjoy Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 But they couldn't hold it, could they?Not that it's saying much, as the Baratheons can't hold it neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant snake Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Jaime shoved Bran (a totally innocent kid) out of a Window with the intention to kill him, because Bran saw him banging his sister, and you're suggesting that he might be the 'good guy'? Give me a break.Yeah but he went through one of the best catharsis (how the hell do you pluralize THAT?) I've ever seen. Two handed Jaime was an arrogant killer who was angry at the world for not understanding or caring why he did what he did. Goldenhand Jaime, or rather, post narcissus complex Jaime is still witty, but not the complete cynic that he once was.He has enough of the ruthlessness to win, but he is far from a mad dog, and he is the opposite of his impulsive self from the beginning of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blue Rose Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Dany will lead an army of eunuch slave soldiers, mercenaries, Dothraki, and Ironborn, flanked by a hated kinslayer dwarf as her main advisor, after spurning her only reasonable chance at Westerosi allies (the Martells). There is no way she ISN'T viewed as a villain.Although Dany considers herself Westerosi royalty, the truth is that she was brought up in foreign lands with foreign cultures, customs and ideals. No one in Westeros will see her as one of their own because they will not identify with her. So, YES, a foreigner invading your land will be viewed as an antagonist. I used to love Daenerys, but not so much anymore. I think she will invade Westeros as a ruthless conquerer that doesn't consider the wreckages she leaves after passing through. Not that she will intentionally hurt commoners, but I think there will be a lot of unnecessary deaths because she hasn't thought things through. I also don't think she'll end up on the Iron Throne, but if she does I don't think she'd be a good ruler. I don't see her turning into a complete villain, but I wouldn't be surprised if she edged closer to darkness.I agree. I used to love Dany but don't like who she's turning out to be. She has let the power go to her head, and no longer listens to their advisors- always acting like she is so much wiser than they are. Also she used to care about people but by the end of DwD she couldn't care less. She no longer held court or cared about what people had to say. I don't know that she will end up being an "I eat raw babies for breakfast" villain but her arrogance will certainly cause a lot of pain and harm- like you said, she will be walking on the edge of darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 This is ASoIaF, there is no good and bad guys. All the characters just like in real life are capable of good and bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolfsigil Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 This is ASoIaF, there is no good and bad guys. All the characters just like in real life are capable of good and bad.Agreed, which is partially why we get to see things through their eyes ( most of them) so we can see how they justify their actions.People can justify anything to themselves if they so choose.outside of a few characters, people don't see all the vile things they do as vile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 They are both good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Zero. Jaime will always remain a scumbag. Dany is no bad guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxspecific Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 To be honest, Dany is very capable of empathy and has a sense of humanity. However, the ideas in her head about her rights as a Targ that Viserys installed so deeply and that she seemingly refuses to free herself of, may make her brutal in her actions.But I still don't see her as a baddie. Maybe through incompetence she will do some bad stuff, but she herself is not 'bad'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu1987 Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I totally feel more sympathetic towards Jamie. At least he is remotely honest and accepting about what and who he is. Dany comes off as to preachy and self righteous, and as someone mentioned, has pretty much zero claim to the IT. When you think about how much trouble and death Dany has caused - mostly due to her ego and sense of entitlement - it's nothing compared to Jamie pushing Bran out the window. You also have to remember that Jamie has sacrificed 1. Casterly Rock to be near the woman he loves(albeit his sister) and 2. His reputation by slaying Aerys and saving KL.I don't see her as evil or a 'baddie' but I certainly don't like her or want her to come out victorious in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I think they will have a meeting at Kingslanding. Jaime killed Aerys to stop the sitting be burnt to the ground and I think he may have to face Dany to try and stop the same outcome, but will not be as successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 100% chance that Dany is a baddie and Jaime is goodie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loslathdos Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Zero. GRRM's characters are neither good or bad. All of them are something in between.The awkward moment when Joffrey and Ramsay exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolfsigil Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 And Craster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 And the Mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealbando Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 And Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 We do not have a pov from the Mountain or Craster or Ramsay so it is hard for me to say they are pure evil. Are they guilty of heinous acts, yes. But they might be capable of goodness as well. It's funny how I changed my opinion of Jaime once we got inside his mind from his pov.Edit: I knew I would catch mass shit for this. Let me state that YES I believe what Gregor did to Elia and the kids was evil. Also almost everything Ramsay did as well. But I was just thinking if a person can be capable of good (which I'm not certain Gregor or Ramsay is) does that cancel out the bad or vice versa? Probably not. I guess certain things can't be undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 And MissandeiHow dare you ser. You leave the lovely Missandei alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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