*crackpot* the others built the wall

[Three eyed wolf]

Okay I know this is am stupid idea but its always bothered me that the wall is made of ice, like the others. It just seems strange to me that you would stop creatures of ice with a wall of ice. (Although the exp<b></b>ression fighting fire with fire does come to mind.) so what if we have the story the wrong way around? Maybe the others built the wall to stop the humans destroying them, afterall it does make sense that the others would build with ice. Over time the same thing that is happens now happened to them, no one cared about it until no one was there to protect it. The westeros people took it obver to defend against wildings, destroyng the forts on the north side and replacing them on the south. The others deside to take back what once was theirs with ice and blood, preasant situation arises.

Obviously I have no evidence to support this as it is just a thought. But does anyone think thee is any credit to this idea?

[tootboot]

It's probably difficult to find enough stone to make a 700 foot high wall that stretches across a continent.

[quaitheisnotyourmom]

I don't, Why is then that the magic weaved trough the Wall's very substance makes the others can not pass it?

Nice thought though, but I still believe it's built by the Night's Watch during/after the the long night.

[unSonofStannis]

I like it

[callmedodge]

I don't, Why is then that the magic weaved trough the Wall's very substance makes the others can not pass it?

Nice thought though, but I still believe it's built by the Night's Watch during/after the the long night.

Do we have any actual proof that the Others cannot pass.? Besides Old Nan`s stories?

The only magical thing we`ve seen the Wall do is prevent Jon from sensing Ghost when Ghost was north of the Wall. Warging has been touted as specifically coming from the COTF who supposedly fought against the Others.

We`ve seen that the Others can control their wights through the wall. Who`s to say that it wasn`t built by them and the magic is designed specifically to protect against non-Other magic. I`m surprised this isn`t a more popular theory, considering the Others` penchant for working with ice and the fact that the COTF`s magic so far seems to be more nature (animals and trees) focused than anything.

In fact, the more I think about this, the more painfully obvious it has always been.

[James Arryn]

I made this joke in the Pomminghams thread.

[thecryptile]

If they built it, I think they would have warded it against humans instead of themselves. Ice was chosen for some magical property it has. As to only having Old Nans word for it being warded, Coldhands couldn't cross in one of the Sam chapters so we have empirical proof from a POV that it is in fact warded against others.

[callmedodge]

If they built it, I think they would have warded it against humans instead of themselves. Ice was chosen for some magical property it has. As to only having Old Nans word for it being warded, Coldhands couldn't cross in one of the Sam chapters so we have empirical proof from a POV that it is in fact warded against others.

He couldn`t pass the Weirwood gate. A COTF portal.

[Black Crow]

GRRM: The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

[Leto]

If they built it, I think they would have warded it against humans instead of themselves. Ice was chosen for some magical property it has. As to only having Old Nans word for it being warded, Coldhands couldn't cross in one of the Sam chapters so we have empirical proof from a POV that it is in fact warded against others.

Like callmedodge said. Also, what makes you think coldhands in an Other?

[danm_999]

I'm a little dubious on this theory. Or at least, it needs some extra questions worked out before we can begin entertaining it. Questions like;

• How, if the Others lost the War of the Dawn, were they able to build such an impressive structure that clearly took centuries to raise? Why didn't the humans or the Children of the Forest stop them?
  
• Why did the Others build the Wall where they did? Why didn't they build it closer to the Lands of Always Winter? Where it currently is (assuming it was intended to originally face south) there's always going to be the risk men will live behind it, and we definitely know the Children of the Forest had lived in their cave "for a thousand thousand years", a cave which is also north of the wall.
  
• Why would the Others build a fixed position defense when, from what we've seen, they rely on subterfuge and guerilla tactics? How could they expect to man it during the day?
  
• What about the Wall did the Others think would deter humans from exterminating the Others? Unlike the Others, humans south of the Wall have ships, wargs and extensive engineering expertise. It wouldn't be difficult to get around and capture. How would it stop, say, a fleet from Essos?
  

[thecryptile]

GRRM: The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

The Wall is just regular ice, not the substance of the Other's armor and swords. It melts and behaves like a glacier. Humans can build things out of ice too- they've got a hotel made of ice in Dubai.

Like callmedodge said. Also, what makes you think coldhands in an Other?

Maybe he's just a wight, but the main reason I think he's an Other is he can't cross the Wall and Mormont and Jon brought wights through the wall- circular reasoning I know.

[Runaway Penguin]

Wll was built by Geoffrey Pyke, bastard of the Iron isles, using a mixture of water and wood shavings to produce the Pykrete :)

[The Dragon has three heads]

Those who sing the song of earth.

Helped by some of those who sung the song of ice...some of them...

[Rhaegarsjoy]

The others build the wall to keep themselves out?

[Three eyed wolf]

[*]How, if the Others lost the War of the Dawn, were they able to build such an impressive structure that clearly took centuries to raise? Why didn't the humans or the Children of the Forest stop them?

Probably because as they control ice they would be able to build it relatively quickly. Or the humans and CotF were happy with a peace.

[*]Why did the Others build the Wall where they did? Why didn't they build it closer to the Lands of Always Winter? Where it currently is (assuming it was intended to originally face south) there's always going to be the risk men will live behind it, and we definitely know the Children of the Forest had lived in their cave "for a thousand thousand years", a cave which is also north of the wall.

So they had more land possibly, and maybe they didn't know the children had a cave their or else they moved back after the wall was built.

[*]Why would the Others build a fixed position defense when, from what we've seen, they rely on subterfuge and guerilla tactics? How could they expect to man it during the day?

We don't really have enough information to make a judgment on their tactics, and we can't assume they can't survive during the day.

[*]What about the Wall did the Others think would deter humans from exterminating the Others? Unlike the Others, humans south of the Wall have ships, wargs and extensive engineering expertise. It wouldn't be difficult to get around and capture. How would it stop, say, a fleet from Essos?

I don't know about that one but the same could be said for the westeros and the wildings, they could easily build ships but we don't question it's existence for the westoros people.

[danm_999]

Probably because as they control ice they would be able to build it relatively quickly.

But if they could control ice of that quantity so rapidly, and erect vast defensive structures, why didn't they use it during the war?

Moreover, we have records from the Night's Watch that indicate they added to the Wall's height every summer, which defies the idea the Wall was built in one hit.

Or the humans and CotF were happy with a peace.

Well clearly under your theory they weren't. They stole the Wall from the Others. If they didn't like them having it, why did they let them build it? There's a lot of important moments and changes in attitude this theory is lacking.

So they had more land possibly, and maybe they didn't know the children had a cave their or else they moved back after the wall was built.

How could they not know? It's under a giant weirwood grove. Surely the Others understand what that meant. After all, they seem to have no trouble during the events of ADWD; they've got a sizeable force of wights stationed outside the cave.

And Leaf says the Children have lived there for a thousand thousand years, there's no indication they left and came back.

We don't really have enough information to make a judgment on their tactics,

Yeah we do. We know what happened to Waymar Royce and Will, we know what nearly happened to Sam and Grenn, and we get detailed reports from both Mance and Tormund that the Others don't ever attack personally in force, they only attack during night, and they don't attack head on, they appear to favour guerilla attacks. The only exception appears to be when they mass wights, but that's really an offensive tactic and wouldn't be much use in defending a fixed position.

and we can't assume they can't survive during the day.

I don't assume that, I point out how they don't seem to be able to attack during the day, as they forgo attacking several important characters during daylight when an attack would be very fortutious. For example, it would have simplified matters if even a single Other was waiting for Bran and co outside the COTF cave. Instead during daylight they had to resort to wights which are slow moving and clumsy.

And defending a fixed position during the day against humans wouldn't be tactically viable.

I don't know about that one but the same could be said for the westeros and the wildings, they could easily build ships but we don't question it's existence for the westoros people.

But that's kind of my point. The Wall is pretty rubbish at stopping Wildlings from slipping around the Shadow Tower and sailing/boating around Eastwatch.

That's because the Wall doesn't appear designed to keep humans out.

[Lummel]

A the moment I think any theory about the origin of the Wall is going to be crackpot because we know so little about it. GRRM might be happy to leave it mysterious, it might not be something that he really wants to clear up.

All we have to work from are a couple of stories and what we see of the Nightfort in the Bran ASOS chapter. Castle Black and its tunnel through the Wall iirc correctly was a later addition, we don't know if the weirwood door was the only way through the Wall at the Nightfort and we have two types of wall construction stories. There is a factual story in Jon V AGOT about the role of the builders in the Night watch and a couple of mentions of the Wall being built up over time (scarce imaginable cutting blocks of ice, hauling them up the wall, sliding them along for miles to build it...but this is a fantasy novel so I suppose we have to allow some leeway), we could theorise that this was the way the whole wall was built. In which case like Hadrian's Wall, the Great Wall of China or the Maginot Line the purpose was not to absolutely block things moving from one side to the other but to make it difficult and to limit the number of places that hostile force could be deployed.

The second type of explanation is the magical involving the powers of the children of the forest, this ties in with the magical weirwood gate at the Nightfort, but creates a slight problem in that the Children are found north of the Wall. Which suggests the function of the Wall was not entirely to protect the humans from the Others but to specifically to separate the humans from the Children and constructed under conditions of mutual agreement between the children and the humans that they were better off limited in their ability to interact. That weirwood gate is fine for small groups to go through, but was not designed with large patrols, hunting parties, foraging groups or armies in mind. There's a problem there in that humans are found both North and South of the Wall, but a clue also perhaps in that south of the Wall magic is limited, humans are organised into more complex hierarchical societies that use technologies to control the environment while North of the Wall we find various more magical things - the children, the Others, the wights, lots of warging, while the position of the human population is more marginal and their technology is not up to forest clearing, damning rivers, building mills and their societies seemingly can't support a specialised warrior caste let alone a hereditary nobility. :dunno:

But really a couple more throw away details about the Wall would change the theories that we could dream up about it.

[Three eyed wolf]

But if they could control ice of that quantity so rapidly, and erect vast defensive structures, why didn't they use it during the war?

Who's to say they didn't

Moreover, we have records from the Night's Watch that indicate they added to the Wall's height every summer, which defies the idea the Wall was built in one hit.

Maybe they did, if they wanted more protection why wouldn't they make it taller?

Well clearly under your theory they weren't. They stole the Wall from the Others. If they didn't like them having it, why did they let them build it? There's a lot of important moments and changes in attitude this theory is lacking.

That wasn't what I meant, I think the others abandoned the wall, after numbers dwindled so low they couldn't man it any more, like what's happening to the NW now.

How could they not know? It's under a giant weirwood grove. Surely the Others understand what that meant. After all, they seem to have no trouble during the events of ADWD; they've got a sizeable force of wights stationed outside the cave.

And Leaf says the Children have lived there for a thousand thousand years, there's no indication they left and came back.

Not every weirwood grove has a CotF hideout underneath, and the others could hardly search every single one north of the wall. Maybe bloodraven gave it away when he arrived, h had to get there somewhere. Maybe they just happened t find it. Maybe it had something to do with bran or CH.

How many thousand years? How many thousands of years ago was the long night? The others could have been at the wall for thousands of years before leaving it, after all we don't have many dates to do with the long night or the NW or an of that stuff.

Yeah we do. We know what happened to Waymar Royce and Will, we know what nearly happened to Sam and Grenn, and we get detailed reports from both Mance and Tormund that the Others don't ever attack personally in force, they only attack during night, and they don't attack head on, they appear to favour guerilla attacks. The only exception appears to be when they mass wights, but that's really an offensive tactic and wouldn't be much use in defending a fixed position.

They are only just reappearing, they might not be at full strength. They might not be very strong because it is only autumn after a long, hot summer. They might not want to give away their whole plan before they are ready to implement it. Maybe they're just being more careful this time around. This is a whole knew generation of others, hey may not have the same tactics as their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grand parents.

I don't assume that, I point out how they don't seem to be able to attack during the day, as they forgo attacking several important characters during daylight when an attack would be very fortutious. For example, it would have simplified matters if even a single Other was waiting for Bran and co outside the COTF cave. Instead during daylight they had to resort to wights which are slow moving and clumsy.

And defending a fixed position during the day against humans wouldn't be tactically viable.

Would the NW attack an other in the middle of the night? No of course not you wait until they are weakest. The wights are just as effective during day or night were as the others are undoubtably weaker during the day. You don't mount an attack when your weak. During the night humans are cold, tired, can't see ad are therefore weaker during the night. I think a similar thing is happening with the others, I think they are simply nocturnal creatures who can't stand the heat.

But that's kind of my point. The Wall is pretty rubbish at stopping Wildlings from slipping around the Shadow Tower and sailing/boating around Eastwatch.

That's because the Wall doesn't appear designed to keep humans out.

Do you recall a mention of dead things in the water, obviously others or at least wights can swim. What is to stop them building boats. We know that they are intelligent, why is it such a big leap to assume they re capable of building boats or swimming?

[Lady Nastja]

If they built it, I think they would have warded it against humans instead of themselves. Ice was chosen for some magical property it has. As to only having Old Nans word for it being warded, Coldhands couldn't cross in one of the Sam chapters so we have empirical proof from a POV that it is in fact warded against others.

:agree: