The Grey Girl: Examining Alys Karstark

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

For discussion and thematic purposes, this topic can be considered an offshoot of The Great Northern Conspiracy. Though I don't think the Alys Karstark event necessarily ties in to a larger plot on its own, I think it's indicative of the mindset of the northerners at that time.

Alys shows up at Castle Black when she's on the run from Cregan and Arnolf Karstark. She does not seek an audience with Selyse or the actual nobles there, nor has she tried to get any word to Stannis. She comes and wants to see Jon.

Perhaps it is simply her desperation, but being a northern girl, Alys has to know that by definition, the Night's Watch cannot take part in political quarrels. And yet she still comes to Jon and wants him to help her. She appeals to the kinship Stark and Karstark share. "My house and yours." And yet, being a bastard (apparently), House Stark is not, strictly speaking, Jon's house in a legal sense. "I did not know where to turn but to the last son of Eddard Stark."

Jon says she should have gone to Stannis, which she laughs off and tells Jon about the conspiracy against him — which Jon later acts to prevent, not Alys — and writes Stannis off as being unable and unwilling to help regardless. For all the dismissive talk of the North now being in favor of Stannis as king, this situation seems to belie that — Jon being Ned's son trumps Stannis being Karhold's declared king.

Alys does not mention the Night's Watch vows as an obstacle at all; it's Jon who has to slip in how taking the black keeps people from acting on feuds. Jon actually tries to convince her to take the matter to Stannis and again, she laughs it off. She finishes the chapter by kneeling before him — an act of supplication, even fealty — and again asks for his help.

Later on, at the wedding, Jon takes note of who's there and who isn't. Some of the Watch brothers have declined to attend, but it's left ambiguous whether it's the political interference or the Red God-sanctioned nuptuals they protest.

Jon is the one to give Alys away — a symbolic gesture of both authority and protection — and her cloak is black Night's Watch wool and white fur — again, two things heavily symbolic of Jon himself. The maiden cloak symbolizes the protection and authority of a maid's house (and specfically its patriarch); the black wool and white fur thematically suggest that Jon is the protector, the authority and now the patriarch. Likewise, the Thenns have no coat of arms — the visual manifestation of a house — until Jon explicitly instructs his men to create one for them. In a very tangible way, Jon has now created a new Westerosi house out of whole cloth (literally, hah) — very kingly.

Jon also recalls going down to meet Cregan Karstark on the Kingsroad (hmm, and no one thought to stab him before he left?). The Karstark men do take a shot or two at the Watch men, but no one tries to take a shot at Jon himself or level any accusations of desertion. Jon later visits Cregan in the ice cells and, though Cregan is decades older than him, shows unmistakable authority. "I'm in charge here, you have no permission to be here, and I'm calling the shots." He is also willing to uphold Alys's legal rights to Karhold, rather than leave the domestic dispute alone. I also find it interesting that Cregan tries to claim hospitality and appeals to Arnolf being a lord — which he isn't and Jon calls him on it. What he does not do, not once, is accuse Jon, as a Watch brother, of breaking his oath or improperly meddling in affairs where his Watch oath is concerned. He's mad to be foiled, yes, but Jon being in the Watch isn't part of the reasoning.

Cregan, like Alys, makes an appeal to Jon based on Starks and Karstarks being kin. It is Jon who has to remind Cregan that his surname is Snow, and Jon who thinks to himself that it's too risky to kill Cregan because he's in the Watch. The Watch angle doesn't faze Alys when she came asking for help, and it doesn't seem to faze Cregan now. Almost as if Jon's Watch vows are considered incidental or even surmountable.

At the feast, the Queen's Men toast Stannis and the Red God, and nothing indicates that the wildlings or northerners join in. And something else curious happens at the feast: the clan leaders, Flint and Norrey, show up "for the wedding." They also bring wet nurses for the wildling "prince." Jon himself wonders what on earth they're doing there — "he did not believe for a moment" that they came down and brought fighting men only for a wedding. So why are they there? I think they're there to take measure of Jon himself. The Alys-Sigorn wedding is one of the first indicators, if not the first, showing that Jon is willing to play political ball in the North if he has to. He's arbitrated a succession dispute, sanctioned a wedding, imprisoned hostile opposition and created a new house. Not bad. There has always been a lingering question of whether Jon would choose to act even if he knew the contents of Robb's will and what it implies; the Karstark wedding shows that Jon is willing and capable of acting in the right circumstance, and I think the clan chiefs took note of it.

Finally, when Jon and Alys are discussing the winter at Karhold and supplies, it again takes on an air of Jon as a protector and a benevolent patriarchal figure. He asks about their provisions and makes plans to accept any Karhold men in the Watch whom Karhold cannot feed. Alys then takes his hand and says, "Karhold remembers." The implication being that, for all of this, if Jon needs Karhold in his corner, he has it.

So what to make of all of this. First and foremost, I think it all broadly hints that Jon, even before Alys arrives, is in possession of more political capital than he's aware he even has. He must simply act to tap into it, which he does when Alys arrvies — and again, she arrives because she believes he has some power as Ned's son. It's almost a domino effect — "power resides where men believe it resides" — and at the end of the Karstark events, it's clear that now, at least to a few people in the North (and who knows how many others in the wings — Jon has very real power.

[Nerolunar]

Finally someone made a review of Alys Karstark. I did not read all of it tho.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Great analysis. Does Alys know that Jon's brother executed her father?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Great analysis. Does Alys know that Jon's brother executed her father?

Yes. They acknowledge it and agree that it doesn't hinder them working together now.

[The Great Walrus]

Its nice to see a thread going in depth about Alys. She's one of those minor characters who you can't help but just wonder if there's more going on with them...

[lady m]

Great analysis. Does Alys know that Jon's brother executed her father?

I'd say yes, as they discuss the breech between the two families.

Apple, lovely analysis. Don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but probably the most curious thing that is done is the creation of House Thenn, but we're not shown any objection, from the clansmen, who are shown having to be smoothed over by Jon with regard to Tormund's peeps being let through the Wall. But, also, Selyse and Alister Florent, I would think they would jealously guard the rights of a king, but Selyse is enraptured by the entire event. New lordly houses can't just be created by anyone, no?

[Young Nan]

I agree with your analysis. I think Jon has power far in excess of the amount generally possessed by a LC of the NW. He is also acting far outside the scope of his duties as a LC, to the point that his actions can be construed (and are, by some people) as oathbreaking, depending on how people interpret the "protect the realm" portion of their vows.

It is also clear that at multiple people are already looking to Jon as the last surviving son of Ned Stark, expecting him to intervene in matters that would normally be up the the Lord of WF and not under the jurisdiction of the watch. Stannis openly wants him to do so, and Alys at the very least expects him to act in that capacity.

The fact that different people are already treating Jon this way raises interesting questions about Robbs will, such as, does it even matter if Jon was legitimized or named as heir, when people are already treating him as such? Are they treating him that way because of the will, or just because of his lineage?

[Dr. Pepper]

Excellent thread, Apple, as always. Alys and her Thenn has been niggling my mind lately and it's excellent to see all of this laid out in a logical and coherent way, especially when it works so well with the GNC.

The cloak thing is very interesting. I'm reminded of two others who wed. Sansa was given a cloak of her family colors. Joffrey said he would act the part of her father that day, not her king. The kingship is an inherently patriarchical office and Joffrey could have easily said, "I'm the king, I can give you away as the king" but he says he'd play her father. Yes, obviously there's a bit of taunting going on there, but it's still significant that Joffrey stood in as a patriarch for her family.

There's also "Arya". Theon gives her away. He does so as the ward of House Stark, not as the legal heir to the Iron Islands.

But with Alys, Jon doesn't invoke anyone. He's not playing the part of her dead father or a ward of anyone. When asked who gives the girl away, he simply says, "I do." Hmmm...

"he did not believe for a moment" that they came down and brought fighting men only for a wedding.

I know we the readers found it odd that the clan leaders were at the wall, but I completely overlooked that Jon even found it queer. They came for a wedding, but not to help defend the wall. Again, hmmm.

[Wylla Manderly]

Great post and great topic. I agree with all of it except one little point.

... And something else curious happens at the feast: the clan leaders, Flint and Norrey, show up "for the wedding." They also bring wet nurses for the wildling "prince." Jon himself wonders what on earth they're doing there — "he did not believe for a moment" that they came down and brought fighting men only for a wedding. So why are they there? I think they're there to take measure of Jon himself. The Alys-Sigorn wedding is one of the first indicators, if not the first, showing that Jon is willing to play political ball in the North if he has to. He's arbitrated a succession dispute, sanctioned a wedding, imprisoned hostile opposition and created a new house. Not bad. ...

I actually think the two clan leaders came after Stannis had come to the mountain clans. In the chapter where Jon proposed the idea of the support of the mountain clans he also admitted to guides so Stannis could find them. I think this was the first time where he showed to be willing to "play the game". But i absolutely agrre that the flint and the Norrey came tocheck out.

What I really loved about the post is the symblism of Alys maidens cloak. Never saw it myself.

[Jabronius Maximus]

This kind of stuff makes me think of the implications of Jon being resurrected (I think he just survived, but different argument). We've all heard of that technicality of his death freeing him from his oaths. I think if the technicality is even hinted at or whispered, the northern Lords will jump all over it and drag Jon out of the NW. So Robb's will might even be moot in this case. Throw in Rickon's rescue by Davos and Jon might be Regent to Rickon within a day of being resurrected. Then all that political power will be readily apparent to Jon, and we might see him really get things moving.

[yolkboy]

It's a really interesting analysis, you're almost saying Alys was a plot device to parade Jon's power, to an extent. I can't really add to the idea, you've covered it so well.

[Young Nan]

This kind of stuff makes me think of the implications of Jon being resurrected (I think he just survived, but different argument). We've all heard of that technicality of his death freeing him from his oaths. I think if the technicality is even hinted at or whispered, the northern Lords will jump all over it and drag Jon out of the NW. So Robb's will might even be moot in this case. Throw in Rickon's rescue by Davos and Jon might be Regent to Rickon within a day of being resurrected. Then all that political power will be readily apparent to Jon, and we might see him really get things moving.

thats kind of what I am.getting at above. We talk a lot about Robb's will and what it means, but it seems like with or without a will, people are already looking at Jon as the last Stark heir.

[Frey Pie]

It would indeed be interesting if the Clans have come to size him up. Jon sent Stannis to them, but it seems to me Stannis has the support of the clans as long as he has the best interest of the Starks in his heart. Had he named one of his men Lord of WF they would have objected straight away. The power of the Stark name in the North is the strongest of any we see

In any case i guess one of the most important things to come out of this is what did the clansmen deduce from their visit?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The fact that different people are already treating Jon this way raises interesting questions about Robbs will, such as, does it even matter if Jon was legitimized or named as heir, when people are already treating him as such? Are they treating him that way because of the will, or just because of his lineage?

This is where the GNC ties into it, broadly. It had occurred to me that Alys might have gone to the Wall already expecting the will to have been made public and/or for Jon to be aware of it. It was only when she arrived and saw that it was still not out in the open that she had to improvise. I have said that more people in the North are aware of the will than it would seem. For the clans, for instance, it could be a matter of "Well would he give up the Watch post?" The wedding shows Jon's willing to do politicking, which in turn could convince the clans and others that he might be willing to act on the will if he were made aware of it. I also suspect that it was Stannis' presence on the Wall that prevented people from immediately going to Jon with the will; but now, Stannis is surrounded by other northmen and not on the Wall, whereas Jon is surrounded by Watch brothers and wildlings who are loyal to him. If the idea is to be in position to reveal the will when the time comes, then the clans are in good shape.

[Jabronius Maximus]

thats kind of what I am.getting at above. We talk a lot about Robb's will and what it means, but it seems like with or without a will, people are already looking at Jon as the last Stark heir.

It's really up in the air right now, though. He could just as easily be viewed in that way because the will has made it's way around, and Alys came thinking Jon would know about it by now. She saw he didn't, so maybe then she improvised or something.

ETA: What Apple said

[TheWanderer]

and her cloak is black Night's Watch wool and white fur — again, two things heavily symbolic of Jon himself. The maiden cloak symbolizes the protection and authority of a maid's house (and specfically its patriarch); the black wool and white fur thematically suggest that Jon is the protector, the authority and now the patriarch.

Although this is an interesting interpretation I'd just like to point out that black and white are the colours of House Karstark. There are no other colours Alys could've been wed in, regardless of Jon's input.

The cloak thing is very interesting. I'm reminded of two others who wed. Sansa was given a cloak of her family colors. Joffrey said he would act the part of her father that day, not her king. The kingship is an inherently patriarchical office and Joffrey could have easily said, "I'm the king, I can give you away as the king" but he says he'd play her father. Yes, obviously there's a bit of taunting going on there, but it's still significant that Joffrey stood in as a patriarch for her family.

There's also "Arya". Theon gives her away. He does so as the ward of House Stark, not as the legal heir to the Iron Islands.

But with Alys, Jon doesn't invoke anyone. He's not playing the part of her dead father or a ward of anyone. When asked who gives the girl away, he simply says, "I do." Hmmm...

The family connection between the Karstarks and Starks has already been brought up by Alys in their conversation, that alone probably allows Jon to give her away. It certainly is an authoritative thing to do but not necessarily a lordly or kingly thing, as you accurately point out that in other circumstances family roles have been given greater importance than political ones.

[Night's Watchmen]

Excellent read Apple :bowdown: The Flint and The Norrey's coming to wedding, with fighting men (which they didn't for defending the Wall) is really suspicious. Kinda adding to the GNC, maybe the clans leaders came to defend Jon if anything goes badly? As we know, meddling in realm affairs are forbidden for the Night's Watch and the Watch is not manned by Northmen alone(who would respect Jon because of his heritage) they wanted to make sure Jon's okay?

[Young Nan]

This is where the GNC ties into it, broadly. It had occurred to me that Alys might have gone to the Wall already expecting the will to have been made public and/or for Jon to be aware of it. It was only when she arrived and saw that it was still not out in the open that she had to improvise. I have said that more people in the North are aware of the will than it would seem. For the clans, for instance, it could be a matter of "Well would he give up the Watch post?" The wedding shows Jon's willing to do politicking, which in turn could convince the clans and others that he might be willing to act on the will if he were made aware of it. I also suspect that it was Stannis' presence on the Wall that prevented people from immediately going to Jon with the will; but now, Stannis is surrounded by other northmen and not on the Wall, whereas Jon is surrounded by Watch brothers and wildlings who are loyal to him. If the idea is to be in position to reveal the will when the time comes, then the clans are in good shape.

Do you think that Jon would be willing to act on the will if he knew about it? I think he would, he obviously declined Stannis' offer because although it was what he wanted, it was being given the wrong way (forsaking the old gods). If he knew that Robb wanted him to succeed him, I think that he would be willing to assume control of the north.

It's really up in the air right now, though. He could just as easily be viewed in that way because the will has made it's way around, and Alys came thinking Jon would know about it by now. She saw he didn't, so maybe then she improvised or something.

ETA: What Apple said

That's a really interesting thought, it was really a long shot for Alys to go to Jon, so was she really just super desperate, or did she believe that she had a decent chance because of the will.

[Mladen]

As always, Apple, you manage to give us exceptional piece of work. This is really great analysis.

I have to say, that I was mostly interested in Alys due to the fact she is the only one of Northern Lords that have actually see Sansa. And then I reread DWD and understood that Alys was 6 back then, and Sansa would be 4 :bang: . Ever since then, I haven`t thought a lot about her.

Quick observation - `My house and yours`. We can debate whether this is about being member of a house, or being head of the house. As we know, Alys is lady of Karhold and most likely heiress, just as Jon is the heir of house Stak. Perhaps here Alys wasn`t just talking about Jon being member of House Stark, than being the Head of the same.

Also, we have here trange union and connection for two supposingly in not great relationship Houses. Ill blood taht was between them is no long, which can only indicate not that Alys trusts Jon above all else, than also just like wedding symbolizes Alys being Jon`s loyal subject. Here we see that what Bolton said about Starks and Karstarks, is very much true

Lastly, her entire story revolves on `The North remembers` theme. She came to the man she knew she could trust, she came to the last known living member of House Stark. Just like Wylla Manderly remembers the promise, Allys here remembers that Starks and Karstarks are relatives. If we add to that the GNC theory, we could freely say that North hasn`t forgotten their King. All in all, like Apple said it`s just proof of Jon`s importance to Northern lords.

[Lord of the Tides]

Great original post and a very interesting interpretation of Alys' misfortune being a stepping stone for Jon's ascend. I can't really add anything, but the fact that the entire analysis is very convincing. Good job, Apple Martini.