Why isn't Jon better looking?

[intheswamp]

If I had to guess, I'd say that Jon is probably above average looking, but not gorgeous enough to make up for his bastardry and emo nature to draw much attention at the start of the series. However, as he matures and becomes more powerful, he starts catching the eye of women and the respect of men. He has a bit of Don Draper moody swagger going on in Dance. If Jon and Tyrion ever meet again, I predict that Tyrion would have a very different opinion of Snow.

Besides, since getting to the wall, nearly every character with teets has been coming onto Jon: Ygritte, Val, Alys, Mel, Sam. Even Shireen gets flustered by him. And, we all know Stannis and Satin are in love with him. He can't be that plain.

[blood of the dragoon]

I think you just like saying "sexy beast"

Who doesn't? And we're all forgetting one other person attracted to Jon, sam.

Not quite 'my silver price' and probably not that he even lets himself admit to himself, but he's madly in live with Jon.

[Nausicaä]

Men have no problem saying another guy is handsome or not. Jaime, Euron and Loras are examples of men thinking of them as handsome.

Looks are not the only thing to attract a woman. Jon is a generally good guy, powerful, skilled and from a noble family. I would be shocked if he was not attractive to women.

EDIT

In fact Euron and Jaime are so good looking, that men, who hated them STILL bring up their looks. Victarion of all people cannot help but notice Euron is a handsome man.

But we don't get many descriptions of Jon from other POVs, even male. It is quite possible that other men notice his attractiveness, just don't say it out loud. After all, Jon himself doesn't voice his thoughts about Satin or Jaime, no matter how good-looking he finds them. If we didn't have his POV and only had Satin's, we would probably get Satin's own description of his hair, eye color, etc., but not "he was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven’s ringlets", "lithe and pretty youth" (Jon thinks of Satin as pretty like a dozen times, seriously), "voice as sweet as song", "the sweet scent combed into his beard", etc. Observations that a stranger makes wouldn't sound natural coming from a person's own POV.

I'm of the opinion that Jon's attractiveness is an open question. If I'm not misremembering, he is compared to Ned by three people: Catelyn ("Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him"), Cersei ("I glimpsed him once at Winterfell.. he looks very like his father") and Ned himself ("Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own"). I don't think that says that he actually is a carbon copy of Ned because all three of them parted with Jon before he finished growing and because it is natural for them to compare him to Ned, since Ned presents him as his son. Catelyn was thinking of Jon as Ned's bastard and comparing him to her own sons, who all had her auburn hair and Tully blue eyes. Jon would look more like Ned than them just by the virtue of having the Stark coloring, even if he was way more comely or homely than Ned. In the context that Ned thinks of Jon in GRRM couldn't exactly muddle the waters and have him think that Jon looked so much like Lyanna or Brandon either. I want to get a description of Jon from someone like Sansa, who is a very fair judge of looks but had no reason to think of her bastard brother's attractiveness before. I would also be interested in Jaime's description because he could be the one to note how much or little Jon looks like Brandon. (But I suspect that what we will really get from Jaime when/if they meet would be only a description of Jon's "cold, Stark eyes" since it is a sore spot for him ever since that one time Ned looked at him coldly. ) Howland Reed could be the one to tell us how Jon compares to Lyanna.

Characters' opinions about his attractiveness could be drastically different after it is revealed that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna too.

[ARYa_Nym]

That reminds me that Sam did say that Leo Tyrell was handsome with his cruel mouth. He's capable of letting us know when a male is attractive. Jon he mentioned more of his presence than his looks except for his eyes.

I want to get a description of Jon from someone like Sansa, who is a very fair judge of looks but had no reason to think of her bastard brother's attractiveness before.

I posted a quote about her comparing them. She called Arya ugly and horsey faced and said Arya even looked like Jon and mentioned the long face and coloring.

[Le Cygne]

Yep... even Sansa fantasizes about him doing her despite her lifelong conditioning to only be interesting in pretty boy heroic types from the songs.

Big time. And she changed the events in the dream when it came to him looking at her and then getting into bed, she had her eyes open. Attractiveness is an overall thing, not just someone's face. Sort of an energy they are projecting. But Ygritte did comment on Jon's face here:

Ygritte helped pull him up. “He’s bleeding like a butchered boar. Look what Orell did t’ his sweet face.”

And when she was dying, she caressed his face:

“Oh.” Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” she sighed, dying.

I think she liked it just fine.

[ARYa_Nym]

A sweet face reminds me of Quentyn Martell. I imagine he's better looking but not significantly.

ETA: Pre scar.

[Nausicaä]

I posted a quote about her comparing them. She called Arya ugly and horsey faced and said Arya even looked like Jon and mentioned the long face and coloring.

Well, yeah, she compares them , since they are the only two kids with the Stark coloring. She didn't call Arya ugly or horse-faced, though, at least not in the quote you provided. Horsey grin =/= horse face and as far as I remember, it was Jeyne who started calling Arya the latter, not Sansa.

I'm mainly interested in Sansa's description of Jon as they are now, not more comparisons because I think it's pretty firmly established that with their Stark look and coloring which is exactly the same for all of them, Jon looks like Ned and Arya, Arya looks like Ned and Lyanna, Benjen has that look too, yadda yadda. It's kind of useless information at this point because you can share qualities with another person and be more or less attractive than them. Arya is growing more and more into her face and more like Lyanna, I don't see why Jon at his 18 couldn't have grown to look more like his mother or Brandon, especially since every person who said that he looked like a young version of plain Ned last saw him at 14.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

Apparently all of Jon's physical features were inherited from his mother. I dunno seems a little fishy that he looks more like Eddard than any of his 3 actual sons.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, yeah, she compares them , since they are the only two kids with the Stark coloring. She didn't call Arya ugly or horse-faced, though, at least not in the quote you provided. Horsey grin =/= horse face and as far as I remember, it was Jeyne who started calling Arya the latter, not Sansa.

I'm mainly interested in Sansa's description of Jon as they are now, not more comparisons because I think it's pretty firmly established that with their Stark look and coloring which is exactly the same for all of them, Jon looks like Ned and Arya, Arya looks like Ned and Lyanna, yadda yadda. It's kind of useless information at this point because you can share qualities with another person and be more or less attractive than them. Arya is growing more and more into her face and more like Lyanna, I don't see why Jon at his 18 couldn't have grown to look more like his mother or Brandon, especially since every person who said that he looked like a young version of plain Ned last saw him at 14.

She did:

“You ought to marry Hodor, you’re just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!”

To her sister and her sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. ”

"Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to called you Arya Horseface."

Brandon was noticeably good looking it seems. I don't get that vibe from Jon. Part of Brandon's appeal I imagine was also his personality which enhanced it. Jon is sullen as Alys said.

Arya being good looking is debated on these forums. So are Lyanna's looks. The latter is usually called non conventionally good looking or posters say it must have been more her personality.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Good looks would only move Jon further into the Gary Stu territory. We don't need Rhaegar 2.0

[ARYa_Nym]

Good looks would only move Jon further into the Gary Stu territory. We don't need Rhaegar 2.0

Possibly. As I said Jon being the hero could be a reason why Jon is average looking or slightly above it or say only a slightly above average swordsman because he may not want that type of hero and Jon becomes more relatable/less threatening.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Good looks would only move Jon further into the Gary Stu territory. We don't need Rhaegar 2.0

What's so great about Rhaegar anyway? He may have been a harp-playing charmer but he sounds like a smug bitch. The descriptions of him I read of him in the book remind me of Viserys but with power and combat training.

[The Wolves]

I think he's pretty cute. Seriously though I think he's got some good looks going for him cause nearly every chick he's come in contact with he's been hit upon or flirted with.

[The Wolves]

Possibly. As I said Jon being the hero could be a reason why Jon is average looking or slightly above it or say only a slightly above average swordsman because he may not want that type of hero and Jon becomes more relatable/less threatening.

Jon's not a hero though

[Nausicaä]

What's so great about Rhaegar anyway? He may have been a harp-playing charmer but he sounds like a smug bitch. The descriptions of him I read of him in the book remind me of Viserys but with power and combat training.

Nothing :P I stand on Jaime being far more attractive than him.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jon's not a hero though

I see him as a typical fantasy hero. There are threads which compare him to Aragorn. A ranger, hidden prince, etc. I saw his widlling storyline in the Avatar movie.

[Nami]

Well I think the Stark looks for men are not that attractive

The only one said to be really hot was Brandon

While Lyanna with her Stark looks looked more like wild beauty, so that worked for her

Since Jon looks like Lyanna/Stark/Ned-ish he is not that amazing looking, like it's common for Stark men

IMO His Targ parentage probably shows in his personality

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

I see him as a typical fantasy hero. There are threads which compare him to Aragorn. A ranger, hidden prince, etc. I saw his widlling storyline in the Avatar movie.

Quite so. :lol: He's the only one who's been a "good guy" throughout the series. He's never really made a villainous choice.

[Nami]

Not that I think Jon is as "pretty" as Harington, but does it ever outright say that he's homely or ugly? He has Stark features, but these can be attractive (Brandon and Lyanna, if not Ned, who wasn't ugly so much as plain). He has Ygritte wanting to get in his smallclothes, and he gets flirtation and attention from Val, Alys Karstark and Melisandre. He's also considered mostly by other men (most of whom probably don't bat for that team or are his relatives) or his sisters. In other words, no one who's going to look at him with an eye for how hot he is or isn't. If you got, say, Val or Ygritte or Alys's perspective, you might be surprised.

He's obviously not as outright beautiful as his father was, but nor is he an eyesore by any stretch.

Well, obviously he got his daddy's charisma when it comes to females

Like Cersei wanting to heal Rhaegar's wounds since he had really sad eyes, Jon probably has the "please take care of me I'm so sad" thing females always fall for

[Nami]

Quite so. :lol: He's the only one who's been a "good guy" throughout the series. He's never really made a villainous choice.

crap ignore this

damn sleep LOL