The Last King`s Man: Rereading Davos

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I'll think about this later, but for now let me nit-pick about one small thing: You misquoted our dear Davos, it should be not him...

Whoops. Thanks.

[Mladen]

So, we continue with Davos II... Thanks SENP...

I would like to add some observations of mine:

1. The hero of his POVs. IN ACoK, Davos is almost presented as a mirror in Stannis' world on Dragonstone. In Cressen's prologue, we were introduced to Davos and his background, and then each of three Davos' chapters in ACoK brought us a view on Stannis, events on Dragonstone. Through Davos, we learnt more about all of them. The last was even inserted to give Sansa/Tyrion's chapters opposition from another side. But, in ASoS, Martin evolves Davos as character, and his POVs became more personal, more involved in his thoughts and actions, then playing as mirror to any world. The first chapter brought to us Davos' survival and getting his agency, while in this second, we have seen him acting upon his plans. Being our eyes on Stannis took second place, and Davos became fully fleshed character with his individual thoughts and his very own agency...

2. Hidden structures within different POVs. The beginning of ASOS showed us aftermath of many storylines, and the bubble of death for many characters has been burst. Jaime, Tyrion, Davos... all of them survived, and the suspense was finally over. Then Davos' first chapter full of Mother symbolism moved on Sansa's meeting with Queen of Thorns, where the mother motif was investigated more... But Sansa's chapter brought another theme, the choice we have(telling the truth about Joffrey), that continued through all 5 chapters, concluding with Davos. We have seen Mance deciding about Jon in his camp, Jorah gave Daenerys the choice of accepting him as her husband, Bran faced the choice where to go, and Davos made the choice of what to do... It is quite interesting to see how this story progresses from survival and aftermath, to choices we made and live by them continue on each other, building the world of ASoS.

3. The use of pronouns: "She would be waiting on Dragonstone as well, waiting in all her beauty and all her power, with her god and her shadows and his king." The use of pronouns is exceptionally clever here. Davos knows whom he wants to kill, he knows whom he blames for the deaths of his 4 sons, and that is Melisandre. Whatever he has seen on his island, Davos is certain that Melisandre is the true evil they must face with. But, Melisandre and Stannis are separate entities in Davos' mind. This loyalty, SNEP pointed out in his analysis, is firstly enhanced here with such great use of possessive pronouns. Stannis is Davos' King. This is continuation of the loyalty theme from Davos I chapter, where he thinks: "My King is alive". This all points that there is some sort of intimacy between Stannis and Davos. And we have already seen this. Remember Ned's talk with Varys in dungeons, to paraphrase, "she killed my king"... Loyalty is something Davos is known for, but Davos is also aware of his King's shortcomings. But while Ned understands that Robert became someone he does not know, Davos embodies all Stannis' possible flaws in Melisandre. For Davos, Melisandre isn't just bad influence, he literally sees in her all Stannis' evil. It is something that we should always remember. Davos is utterly loyal to Stannis, but unlike for others, that doesn't exclude Melisandre. At the end, I believe we'll see Melisandre and Davos confrontation, for we'll see that Davos' determination hasn't gone.

4. Lyseni blue eyes, mention of Illyrio Mopatis... That everybody in ASOIAF world are somehow connected we have already know, but the mention of Illyrio in Davos' chapter is something that is truly interesting. Especially when Davos was later knocked down by a boy who claims to be "King's son"in place known as Aegon's garden. Is there possible parallel? Most likely not, but the fact Davos sat in Illyrio's chair is quite interesting for me. Two men have nothing in common, except the fact they are close to pretenders for Iron Throne. Both men seems more than loyal to their respective Kings. Please notice that Davos eats cheese and olives while sitting in that chair. And they all are references to Illyrio... Does this scene parallel the conversation between Tyrion and Illyrio in ADwD. Does Salladhor's offer is the same as Illyrio's sending Tyrion to Aegon, and can Davos' refusal suggest that Tyrion will also switch sides, and join Daenerys. Perhaps it is just coincidence, but just food for thoughts...

5. Patchface's prophecy. “Fool’s blood, king’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." In all interpretations, this line has been has been regarded as Red wedding foreshadowing - deaths of Jinnglebell, Robb Stark, Rosin losing virginity, Edmure being captured, and some of the guests... All in all, Patchface's lines with this fortified it status as being pieces of foreshadowing.

[thewingedwolf]

First let me say that posting in such a fine thread, surrounded by all these KIng's Men feels like doing a tap dancing number in the middle of a mine field but as I gave my word to my friend Mladen that I would contribute and revive this thread, and since I am not one to break a promise, I will attempt to not make a complete fool out of myself and perhaps, maybe even contribute some value to this fine-written, well elaborated thread.

There is one particular aspect of Davos I am more familiar with and I will try and analyze it while providing some historical references and insights.

“All? No. Only those that would see me. They do not love me either, these highborns. To them I’ll always be the Onion Knight.”

“Well, as to that, some gave me soft words and some blunt, some made excuses, some promises, some only lied.”

This sums up, in one sentence, the relationship thay Davos has, not only with the other high lords of Westeros but also with those who follow Stannis. He is viewed by most high lords either as an upstart or with desdain given his past as a smuggler. This situation and how Davos handles it brings stunning historical comparison to a famous English character, namely Sir Francis Drake.

By way of an introduction Sir Francis Drake was a privateer turned Vice Admiral under Queen Elizabeth 1st. He was vice-admiral of the British fleet that defeated the Spanish Armada in 1588. However, before getting into the details of the similariteies (and differences) between that particular battle of the naval assault on King's Landing.

I wish to submit an excerpt of a letter sent by Gonzalo Gonzàles del Castillo (a Spanish nobleman) to King Phillip II of Spain:

"The people of quality dislike him for having risen so high from such a lowely family; the rest say he is the main cause of wars."

The first part of this quote obviously refers to the "failed" diplomacy mission from which Davos returns at the onset of ACoK, when he converses with Maester Cressen. The second part is more interesting in that it could be interpreted in a variety of ways when relating to Davos.

1) Melisandre claimed that had she been at the Blackwater, Stannis would have been victorious. The close followers of Melisandre would argue that Davos, in convincing Stannis not to take her, not only caused his King the victory but also continued a war that could have ended far sooner.

2) It is Davos who convinced Stannis to go North in aid to the NIght's Watch, hence sending Stannis's knights into battle in the North.

I am not contending that those were bad decisions but from the point of view of those who see Davos as an upstart, he would certainly also be perceived as the cause of wars.

Now as I mentioned earlier there are striking similarities between the battle on the river (Blackwater) and the 1588 encounter in which tht English defeated the Spanish.

1. Sir Francis Drake was the vice admiral at the British, much like Davos was second in command to Imry Florent.

2. In both cases, the battle was largely decided by the use of fireships. In the case of the Blackwater, Stannis's fleet was decimated by Tyrion Lannister's usage of wildfire whereas, in the battle against the Spanish Armada Drake used fireships in the night of July 29th 1588 to force the Spanish fleet to break rank and flee out of Calais and into the ocean.

3. Another interesting paralle is that, while Imry Florent ignored Davos's advice and very much looked down on him, Lord Howard of Effingham, who was Sir Francis Drake's commander had a largely collaborative effort with him.

I think Davos is a great example of the struggle that more "recent" nobles (i.e. those who were knighted on merit as opposed to heredity) struggle against the established families of the realm.

Well, this is my take on this, hopefully you find it interesting. Thanks to Mladen for giving me the opportunity to write on this fine thread.

[Fire Eater]

4. Lyseni blue eyes, mention of Illyrio Mopatis... That everybody in ASOIAF world are somehow connected we have already know, but the mention of Illyrio in Davos' chapter is something that is truly interesting. Especially when Davos was later knocked down by a boy who claims to be "King's son"in place known as Aegon's garden. Is there possible parallel? Most likely not, but the fact Davos sat in Illyrio's chair is quite interesting for me. Two men have nothing in common, except the fact they are close to pretenders for Iron Throne. Both men seems more than loyal to their respective Kings. Please notice that Davos eats cheese and olives while sitting in that chair. And they all are references to Illyrio... Does this scene parallel the conversation between Tyrion and Illyrio in ADwD. Does Salladhor's offer is the same as Illyrio's sending Tyrion to Aegon, and can Davos' refusal suggest that Tyrion will also switch sides, and join Daenerys. Perhaps it is just coincidence, but just food for thoughts...

To that I'll add that Davos is assisted by a pair of eunuchs, a reference to Varys. Davos shares a bowl of olives and white cheese; Dany stays in Meereen which is known for its olives and Illyrio is repeatedly referred to as a cheesemonger. Davos and Tyrion are on their way to see two women with Tyrion coming to aid Dany and Davos coming to kill Melisandre.

[Blisscraft]

I wish to submit an excerpt of a letter sent by Gonzalo Gonzàles del Castillo (a Spanish nobleman) to King Phillip II of Spain:

"The people of quality dislike him for having risen so high from such a lowely family; the rest say he is the main cause of wars."

The first part of this quote obviously refers to the "failed" diplomacy mission from which Davos returns at the onset of ACoK, when he converses with Maester Cressen. The second part is more interesting in that it could be interpreted in a variety of ways when relating to Davos.

Now as I mentioned earlier there are striking similarities between the battle on the river (Blackwater) and the 1588 encounter in which tht English defeated the Spanish.

1. Sir Francis Drake was the vice admiral at the British, much like Davos was second in command to Imry Florent.

2. In both cases, the battle was largely decided by the use of fireships. In the case of the Blackwater, Stannis's fleet was decimated by Tyrion Lannister's usage of wildfire whereas, in the battle against the Spanish Armada Drake used fireships in the night of July 29th 1588 to force the Spanish fleet to break rank and flee out of Calais and into the ocean.

3. Another interesting paralle is that, while Imry Florent ignored Stannis's advice and very much looked down on him, Lord Howard of Effingham, who was Sir Francis Drake's commander had a largely collaborative effort with him.

I think Davos is a great example of the struggle that more "recent" nobles (i.e. those who were knighted on merit as opposed to heredity) struggle against the established families of the realm.

tww - I really enjoyed your comparison with Drake and Davos. Very interesting perspective with regard to arguably one of the most important naval battles in history. It reminds me that I often find another influence, albeit lterary, in Martin's work: Shakespeare, a Drake contemporary.

Often discussed in rereads, the "cripples, bastards, and broken things" motif certainly finds its way to Davos. Although, perhaps not literally one of the three, (I confess, I don't remember if Davos is a bastard or not, he certainly could be, as he is from Fleabottom. Davos has been "crippled" by the removal of his fingers. He wasn't born that way.) Davos is on a par with these examples of "outsiders". He is certainly perceived as "less than" and it is only through his actions that he is elevated by Stannis. It's one of the reasons to keep an eye on Stannis in the later books, as he values actions and duty above rank or class. It's a "smart" thing for Stannis to make use of people, like Davos, with talent and devotion.

A few things that I noticed with regard to ASoS so far:

Davos I (Bear with me as I back track a bit).

The Castaway - There is something about the image of a person who survives a shipwreck that evokes a sense of the "spiritually blessed". Jonah, is one of these spiritually blessed survivors. Also, the same "blessed castaway" can be found in Defoe's, Robinson Crusoe, and Shakespeare's Twelfth Night and The Tempest. Symbolically, shipwrecks are events which evoke the overthrow of man and subject him to the wrath of god. A perfect example of this is The Odyssey. It takes a great deal of gumption to take on the sea in a boat. And, if not gumption, ego (think, Titanic, and not the terrible movie that also bears its name). Taking to the sea in a boat is perhaps one of the boldest and bravest things human beings have ever done. It is as if every time anyone sets sail, death is a possible outcome. This is the reasons that ships and their potential to be swamped and destroyed is symbolically relevent. Sailing the sea is flirting with death. And if not death, the untimely isolation of surviving a wreck. Surviving the shipwreck, as Davos does here, places him in limbo, so to speak. Davos, like the others noted above are somewhere in between sailors' goals and their possible deaths.

Davos has "miraculously" survived. As a survivor on a lonely and desolate shore, with no fire and a only a small cave for shelter, Davos sees the sail. "He watched the sail grow for a long time, trying to decide whether he would sooner live or die."

This opening sentence is important for a couple of reasons. First, it shows Davos has survived, as noted above. He did not die in the battle. Second, it shows Davos, once again, as an "outsider". He is separated from others. Finally, it leans us, along with him, toward the ultimate question, should one chose life or death. As the chapter progresses, the spiritual aspect of his castaway status becomes as more and more apparent, as the little ship that ultimately rescues him from his loney place. Davos weighs his options and ultimately, just as the ship comes close and then almost too far to rescue him, makes his choice.

The use of perspective, Davos viewing the ship on the water from afar as it nears while he deliberates on his little island is a masterful frame for the "spiritual" transformation within Davos. As Mladen noted above, the god in charge of this transformation within is The Mother. Symbolically, the "Mother of all mothers" is the sea. It has an above, the seen, and a below, the unseen. It is vast and unknowable, mysterious and lovely. It may rage and destory; or soothe and succor. Davos is well acquainted with the sea and her hidden mysteries. When he "talks" to The Mother, he finds a new meaning to his survival and what to do with his life. He accepts his part in "the fire" (water's elemental opposite). He atones for his "sins", accepts his survival as an example of The Mother's mercy, and understands that he has been saved for a reason. His life and the deaths of his loved ones during the battle were not without meaning.

A couple of other notes about this chapter. First, he has no fire on this little island. This suggests that he has "lost" his fire for living. He lost his inner fire by the use of fire.

Someone above mention the number four (apologies for forgetting). Four is a number associated with Cancer, the crab, as it is the fourth sign of the zodiac. Davos feeds upon crabs to survive. Without them, he perhaps would have starved. Crabs are also a symbol of transformation in reference to the sea, as the crab can live both in and out of water. Crabs can go from above to below and back again.

Finally, in another oblique reference to The Odyssey, when the "rescue" ship crew calls out, "Who are you?" Instead of saying, "No one," (as Arya will later), Davos first thinks before he answers that he was a knight in sevice of Stannis: "A smuggler who rose above himself, . . . a fool who loved his king too much, and forgot his gods." There is no better example of Davos' spiritual awakening than this thought. Davos is "saved" in every since of the word.

I'm out of time, but will write more later (and more briefly) about Davos II.

[Mladen]

First let me say that posting in such a fine thread, surrounded by all these KIng's Men feels like doing a tap dancing number in the middle of a mine field but as I gave my word to my friend Mladen that I would contribute and revive this thread, and since I am not one to break a promise, I will attempt to not make a complete fool out of myself and perhaps, maybe even contribute some value to this fine-written, well elaborated thread.

...snip...

Thank you very much my friend. I appreciate your help, and your great insight...

Te comparison you made between Davos and Drake is wonderful. I am in awe with such astute historical parallel. I love this so much. I imagine that, when you rise high, the noblemen will hate you and the commoners will think you have forgotten your place. It seems like natural order of things. And that is one of leitmotifs in Davos' storyline. Smuggler vs. Knight... The dual perception of Davos is interesting, and gives us such wonderful complexity of interactions on the court and Davos' own struggles with it.

Again, thanks for help, and thank you for great insight...

To that I'll add that Davos is assisted by a pair of eunuchs, a reference to Varys. Davos shares a bowl of olives and white cheese; Dany stays in Meereen which is known for its olives and Illyrio is repeatedly referred to as a cheesemonger. Davos and Tyrion are on their way to see two women with Tyrion coming to aid Dany and Davos coming to kill Melisandre.

With your blessing, I am sold :). I wasn't sure about this parallel but it seemed to me like interesting connection. The one that on the first hand, doesn't make much sense, but has that underlying message in it.

The Castaway - There is something about the image of a person who survives a shipwreck that evokes a sense of the "spiritually blessed". Jonah, is one of these spiritually blessed survivors. Also, the same "blessed castaway" can be found in Defoe's, Robinson Crusoe, and Shakespeare's Twelfth Night and The Tempest. Symbolically, shipwrecks are events which evoke the overthrow of man and subject him to the wrath of god. A perfect example of this is The Odyssey. It takes a great deal of gumption to take on the sea in a boat. And, if not gumption, ego (think, Titanic, and not the terrible movie that also bears its name). Taking to the sea in a boat is perhaps one of the boldest and bravest things human beings have ever done. It is as if every time anyone sets sail, death is a possible outcome. This is the reasons that ships and their potential to be swamped and destroyed is symbolically relevent. Sailing the sea is flirting with death. And if not death, the untimely isolation of surviving a wreck. Surviving the shipwreck, as Davos does here, places him in limbo, so to speak. Davos, like the others noted above are somewhere in between sailors' goals and their possible deaths.

Oh, dear, this is brilliant... "Spiritually blessed" is beautiful way of explaining Davos' time on that rock. I find amusing that what was life for Davos his entire life could be his death. Sea is the symbol of vast eternity, death and hidden danger. Undrinkable water, the sense of having no one and nothing left all of that brings so much sorrow on Davos. But, interestingly, and I know this from my experience, the closer man is to death, the more determined he is to live. And that is why we see Davos keep fighting, keep living. We see him going through all the misfortune to find the purpose. This is such wonderful chapter that echoes in many others, especially later in Theon's storyline in Winterfell...

All of you, thanks for keeping this thread alive... I shall not forget your kindness...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

A few quick observations to add...

1. A different view of Davos. For captain Khorane Sathmantes, Salladhor Saan and young Edric Storm, Davos is not the "upstart former smuggler". The captain treats him with genuine respect, in Davos and Salladhor we see a true friendship between equals (a rather rare thing in the series) and for the boy Edric, Davos is someone who deserves admiration for his bravery.

2. A realistic view of some aspects of the feudal system. At times, feudal lords were no more than bandits with royal permission to rob anyone who crosses their lands. Salladhor gets such a lordship as a reward, which makes Stannis regime look somehow hypocritical (however, it could be said that Stannis himself is not really concerned with ruling his kingdom these days - but he's the king, so it still reflects bad on him).

3. Melissandre is noted here as a very dangerous target, that should better be assigned to a Faceless Man. Could be a random reference, so that we are reminded of their existence before they come to the foreground, but it could also establish a connection for a later conflict between the two...

4. Edric Storm. A nice lad, caring and pleasant, a little bit overly proud but in general a likeable character. Davos notes that he's like Robert (and like Renly). Is he supposed to be an immage of what Robert was as a young boy, and if so, is Robert's a tale of wasted/subverted potential?

[Blisscraft]

Davos II

The image of the island is repeated from Davos I, except that Davos' perspective has changed. In Davos II: "The island loomed larger with every stroke of the oars." Davos is seeing the island, Dragonstone, from the boat instead of, as preivously, seeing the boat from the shore of his little Merling island. Davos has changed from a castaway to one rescued. Both roles have passive aspects. A castaway role is created by storms and other forces beyond one's control. One rescued, too, must necessarily be in a precarious position requiring aid and assistance, as in Davos case. Davos, does, however, take an active part in his rescue by drawing attention to himself as discussed above. He choses to play the role of one rescued instead of death. And now, as the second Davos chapter begins, he observes from a different location, the ship on the sea which moves to the beat of oars and to a new island landscape.

An island landscape is loaded with meaning. Jung noted the island as an image of refuge from the sea of the unconscious. Also, as noted above in the Odyssey, an island can be a prison as Calypso imprisoned Odysseus. It can represent other states of mind such as isolation, solitude, and death. The reminder regarding this negative aspect is expressed in Donne's "No man is an island. . . " However, an island may be seen as a place of refuge, happiness, and peace. An example of the "Blessed Island" is found in religions and stories, such as King Arthur's resting on the island, Avalon.

Dragonstone is a negative aspect of the island image, more like a hell than a paradise. Dragonstone is volcanic in origin and still retains activity. This island's nature, according to Saan's sotto voce gossip, is not only volcanic, but also diabolical: "Queer talking I have heard, of hungry fires within the mountain, and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames. There are shafts, they say, and secret stairs down into the mountain's heart, into hot places where only she may walk unburned."

This hell hole island image conjured up by Saan does not dissuade Davos from his desire to kill Melisandre. Davos goes to his purpose fuelled with a "spiritual" intensity.

Once inside the castle, Davos, strangely, and by strangers wearing sigils with foxes and flowers, is not escorted to the Stone Drum, "but under the arch of the Dragon's Tail and down to Aegon's Garden." Davos is taken to another kind of island, a garden.

Gardens are created by human beings as a place of order, peace, and refuge. Nature, within a garden is tamed and cultivated, as opposed to the wildness of the forest. Davos in Aegon's Garden is told to wait. Davos notices:

"Aegon's Garden has a piney smell to it, and tall dark trees rose on every side. There were wild roses as well, and towering thorny hedges, and a boggy spot where cranberries grew."

The piney smell, something pleasant, contrasted with tall dark trees, the source of the smell; the roses, the beautiful, contrasted with thorny hedges, the potentially hurtful; the boggy spots, maybe treacherous contrasted with cranberries, a delicious food; all reflect a dual nature within this little "island" within the island. Dragonstone is a mix of pleasant and unpleasant aspects and Aegon's Garden is a microcosm of this dualism. Finally, within the garden, Davos encounters a cripple, a bastard, and a broken thing. Shireen, Edric Storm, and Patchface. Davos encounters them in the midst of a game of monsters and maidens. Monsters and maidens is another example of dualism. This reminds me of Marianne Moore's, Poetry, "an imaginary garden with real toads in them."

[Mladen]

The piney smell, something pleasant, contrasted with tall dark trees, the source of the smell; the roses, the beautiful, contrasted with thorny hedges, the potentially hurtful; the boggy spots, maybe treacherous contrasted with cranberries, a delicious food; all reflect a dual nature within this little "island" within the island. Dragonstone is a mix of pleasant and unpleasant aspects and Aegon's Garden is a microcosm of this dualism. Finally, within the garden, Davos encounters a cripple, a bastard, and a broken thing. Shireen, Edric Storm, and Patchface. Davos encounters them in the midst of a game of monsters and maidens. Monsters and maidens is another example of dualism. This reminds me of Marianne Moore's, Poetry, "an imaginary garden with real toads in them."

I like this view on Aegon's garden, as microcosm of peace, serenity and beauty in harsh comparison of Dragonstone. Even the smell is different. For me, this secluded are is almost like Garden of Eden of Dragonstone... Place of perfect harmony and innocence, where children are playing and enjoying. But, it is also the island within an island. The peacefulness of that place is interrupted by outside force, and we see people coming for Davos to take him to dungeons. I find interesting that Davos has met Edric there in Aegon's garden. For if Melisandre belongs in Dragonstone, Davos and his newly regained beliefs belong to Aegon's garden with children to protect...

Blisscraft, great post, my friend...

4. Edric Storm. A nice lad, caring and pleasant, a little bit overly proud but in general a likeable character. Davos notes that he's like Robert (and like Renly). Is he supposed to be an immage of what Robert was as a young boy, and if so, is Robert's a tale of wasted/subverted potential?

I like this... Especially given that boy was first met in Aegon's garden, serving as reference to the Kings. I imagine Robert was kind, a bit stubborn, but all in all, good kid. What happened later is a story of bitterness, moral and physical degradation and endless sufferings...

Davos III is coming by the end of the week...

[Blisscraft]

Thank you, Mladen! :kiss:

[yomi]

Let me add my short interpretation (and answer to some parts of your posts) as well.

Davos is going to Dragonstone and it is no joyful^a) return to a nice place. Dragonstone is looming an the descriptions of the island give an ominous feeling to me. Davos is going there anyway, because he has a mission to fulfill, he has to kill Melisandre to protect his king from her. And nothing shall stop him. Not his fevery illness, neither Salladhors arguments nor his pleading, not the Florent guards who do not recognize him. Except in the end he is actually stopped by the Florent castellan. Davos will be imprisoned and his mission seems failed.

But was it really his mission by the Mother to kill Melisandre? I doubt it.

• From Melisandre we know that it is quiet difficult to interpret godgiven visions correctly. Martin wouldn't give us such a black-and-white contrast where failing Melisandre despite her experience tends to misunderstand what is shown to her whereas perfect Davos gets his first godly command without problem, would he?
  
• Davos is not suited to be an assassin, especially not now, when he is ill, as Salladhor pointed out repeatedly:
  

  
  

  You are an onion smuggler, what do you know of skulkings and stabbings? And you are ill, you cannot even hold the dirk.

  
  

  
  

  
  

  You are weak as a child, and no warrior^c).

  
  

  
  
  
• 
  

  
  

  May the Mother have mercy on them all.

  
  

  
  Everywhere in the books and also in this chaper as illustrated by the quote, the Mother is connected to mercy. She's not a god of vegeance. Let's just look at one of the mothers in the world, Catelyn. She probably wants vengeance from Jaime for pushing Bran out of the window, but it is way less important than the safety of her remaining children, so she releases him on the slight hope of rescuing her daughters.
  

I believe that Davos has a godgiven mission. His solitude and fasting on his rock reminds just to much on ascetic preparation as Moses on the Sinai, the Isrealites in the dessert, Jonah in whale or Jesus in the dessert (and many, many more, of course also from other religions than the Judo-Christian). It might even be from the Mother. But I don't think it is to kill Melisandre.

So what is Davos mission? Previously Davos and Mel were interpreted as Stannis' shoulder angel and devil. While in this chapter Davos sees Mel as a demonlike being, we'll actually come to know that Mel is not really evil. Still she tends to err, and Stannis definately needs someone to counter her (and others). Davos did so before, but he would shut up, when Stannis commanded it. It might simply be his mission to live on and not to compromise easily. To counsel Davos against plans like Ser Axell's to attack Claw Isle, even if it needs a "recklessness akin to madness", and to act, when talking alone is not enough, like in the case of Edric Storm. Maybe that always was his mission and he only had his rock time to make him more aware of it and strengthen his resolve.

But I hope it is more, maybe along the lines of ShadowCat Rivers's idea of rescuing (four) children.

a) There is one moment of joy for Davos, when Salladhor tells him that Devan is well.

B) There is no b-footmark, because my computer insists of turning it into a smilie.

c)This is were I feel is the bis difference between Davos and Francis Drake. Drake was a warrior, Davos is not. And that might be the reason why he gets even less respects by the nobles than Drake with who his commander was willing to collaborate. Davos is not only an upstart, he doesn't even know how to fight. He has hardly anything in common with his fellow knights, who can look back on long lists of ancestors and are - at least in the view of Sandor Clegane - basically glorified killers.

[Mladen]

Davos III, ASOS

Overview

After being imprisoned by Ser Axell Florent in the last chapter due to his plans to assassinate Melisandre, Davos has been taken to the dungeons of Dragonstone. The first several days, he is still experiencing some weakness, but he is taken care of by Maester Pylos and due to proper care and nourishment, he gets better.

One night, Melisandre visits him, and they engage in conversation about R’hllor, when Melisandre explains Davos the foundations of R’hllorian faith. The conversation continues with news of Stannis and Davos’ sons, and Melisandre let Davos know how she discovered his plans.

Three days after Melisandre’s visit, Lord Alester Florent has been brought as a prisoner on the charges of high treason due to his attempt to negotiate peace with Lannisters. The chapter concludes with Davos’ acknowledgment that Stannis will never yield to Lannisters and that, as King’s Men he will respect every Stannis’ decision, even the one to lead them all to their deaths.

Observations

• Davos’ cell is warm, dank and full of rats, half in light and half in darkness.
• Even though Davos is again thinking about dying, someone obviously wants him alive.
• “So you have come to love the fire, it would seem.” “I need the torch.” – Interesting exchange of words, emphasis on love/need differentiation with possible Stannis parallel and his “Red hawk” story.
• Metaphysical conversation and numerical symbolism – importance of one and two.
• Tragic juxtaposition of what Alester Florent and what Davos have lost at Blackwater.
• What exactly have we learnt from dragon dreams and Summerhall?
• Interesting order of chapters – Bran---Davos---Jon --- Daenerys

Analysis

Time spent in the dungeons: Dragonstone, cell and living

Charged of attempt assassination, Davos has been taken to dungeons beneath Castle of Dragonstone. Since Dragonstone is a volcanic island, the cells are unusually warm, and the stones are warm at touch: “Perhaps the old tales were true, and Dragonstone was built with the stones of hell.” As we have many opportunities to find out, every story has a grain of truth. Dragonstone was the fortress of Old Valyria, Targaryen stronghold, built on an island that in entire Westeros, resembles the most to what Old Valyria was supposed to be. We have heard the history of Dragonstone and description of the castle by Maester Cressen in the Prologue of ACoK, but in this chapter, the stone becomes something more, something magical and unknown, something Davos can’t comprehend. From hot stones to Melisandre’s visit, to Alester’s speech about dragon dreams, history of Dragonstone, Targaryen obsession with fire, richness of obsidian whose use we’ll find out later, and Dragonstone being starting point for R’hllorism in Westeros, in lack of better terms, Dragonstone has powerful geographical symbolism, and is one of the places that is closely tied to the upcoming War for Dawn.

As we have read, the cell is rather unusual. And not just because of warmth, but because of the illumination of the cell: “Flickering orange light fell through the ancient iron bars from the torch in the sconce on the wall outside, but the back half of the cell remained drenched in gloom.” This contrast in illumination is rather quite symbolical. The torch is on the other side of the bars, leaving half the cell in darkness. It speaks about Davos being casted away by his King. Powerful symbolism of that torch is especially emphasized when Melisandre visits Davos. Their separation, not just in philosophy, ideology and loyalty is literally described through those bars and that torch. But, the torch, behind symbolizing separation of Davos from his King, also symbolizes Davos’ guiltiness. For the room, half in light, and half in darkness, represent Davos’ divided loyalty – his unchallenged and undoubted loyalty to Davos and his obvious hatred and mistrust to Melisandre.

In ASoS, by this moment, Davos has gone through a hell of a journey. In Davos I, he was just waiting death to come for him, and was unexpectedly saved. In his second chapter, he gained agenda, he made plans of killing Melisandre, and now in this chapter, we are back to expecting death. The gloomy thoughts embodied in “I will not linger long, he remembered thinking. I will die soon, here in the dark.” But, contrasting these beginning thoughts, Davos is quickly realizing that someone indeed wants him alive. Maester Pylos had come to bled him, to give him milk of the poppy, he was fed better than any prisoner should hope for, from oaten porridge to lamprey pie, after whom he named his two guardsmen. But when Davos realizes that they are not going to let him die, he doubts that they will burn him. His opinion regarding that is that he “would sooner feed crabs than flames.” Since Davos survived on crabs during his time on the rock at Blackwater bay, this idea of being rather eaten by crabs, basically sea creatures, than by fire, talks of interesting circle of life in Davos’ storyline, and the importance of the sea and water in his story. For the first time, Davos’ and Melisandre’s religious beliefs are also opposed on metaphysical plain. Melisandre’s fire is now opposed by Davos’ water – two classical elements that intrigued many philosophers.

Davos vs. Melisandre part 1: Shadows

The conversation between Davos and Melisandre is full of symbolism and for proper analysis I shall divide it in several sections.

“Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though... a man whose flames still burn hot and high... if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make...”

This conversation begins with discussion of torch, and Davos acknowledging that he needs the torch for the light it provides. On Melisandre’s “you love the fire”, he responds with “I need it” This exchange is particularly interesting given Stannis’ story from ACoK about hawk, and his decision to try with “Red hawk” Obviously, Stannis became dependent on Melisandre, but it all began with need, not love. Stannis, as crude, extremely unemotional man, have interesting view on religion. I believe that in his mind, R’hllor is more of a tool than it is deity he undoubtedly believes in. And, just as Stannis in the first Davos’ POV accepted the need for Melisandre, Davos now accepts the need for torch. Accepting what we need despite the lack of affection is something Martin developed throughout this series, and that torch represents one of the symbols of that choice.

The quoted paragraph discusses about shadows. What is a shadow? Is it something bad or something good? Well, apparently it depends on our POV. Shadows are neither light nor darkness; they are darker than light, and lighter than darkness. Does it make much sense? Well, it should. While for Davos shadows are creatures of darkness, something evil, a true horror, Melisandre believes they are “children of light”. This ambiguity of the term is just introduction into much intricate and confusing story of ambiguity of metaphysical plain of ASOIAF.

The paragraph concludes with information about Stannis and “his fires”. While fire in ASOIAF usually has metaphysical, religious, ideological meaning, here it is used as symbol of strength, potency and spirit. Fire represents vividness, passion, desire… All the qualities Stannis at the moment lacks of. Melisandre speaks here how Stannis has taken his defeat, and how much it hurt him. In opposition to Stannis’ broken spirit is Davos, who lost sons, ship, luck and possibly King’s love at Blackwater and still he is undeniably alive. When we remember Davos’ reaction to being saved by Lyseni ship, we see how Melisandre is right about this. What Davos has survived changed him indeed, it gave him cause. His emotional psychological fire is burning strong, even though he lost many things. But, unlike Melisandre’s sexual fire, Davos’ is somewhat purist. His fire, as Davos believes, his raison-d’être is given through the Mother’s mercy. And unlike Melisandre’s consuming fire that gives birth to shadows, Davos’ is gentle and kind, the one that warms and saves from cold. Even though Melisandre connects her and Davos through fire symbolism, there is no doubt that there is a huge difference between what Melisandre represents and what Davos stands for.

Davos vs. Melisandre part 2: Song of ice and fire

“What is it you would have me see?”

“The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good.” She took a step toward him. “Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war.”

“There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light.”

As we were told by GRRM, R’hllorian cult has been heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism and its teachings. In its core Zoroastrianism incorporates both the ideas of monotheism and dualism. The religion certainly influenced Judeo-Christian and Islamic theology, especially in ideas of the ethical monotheism, heaven and hell, messiah figure, resurrection of the body. But beside this religious aspect, I would like us to discuss philosophical aspect of this speech, that IMO, somewhat originates in Heraclitus’ ideas of logos (I will now shamelessly invite you to join the further discussion about these matters once I open Dragon project in several days). Heraclitus believed that fire is primordial element of the cosmos, that it is the arche (fundamental principle). Heraclitus also speaks about one that is fire, but also that one can’t exist without its opposite. Various interpretations tell us that Heraclitus believed that logos (fire) is divine law, God’s word, and that most likely it influenced early Judeo-Christian theologians, since it found its place in one of the Gospels – the one written by St. John. Do I dare to say it is a coincidence? I’ll leave to all of you to decide

Now, Zoroastrianism, Heraclitus’ ideas of logos and early Christian theology all speaks about opposite forces. In ASOIAF, they all have major impact on how GRRM shaped cult of R’hllor and its preaching. It is obvious that this dualism, this war between opposites in which people are choosing between one of two can be devastatingly destructive. Melisandre’s teaching is that fire is life and ice is death, but later in AFFC, Maester Aemon told us that “fire consumes, ice preserves”. Davos noticed that Melisandre’s fire has brought death, and we all know about Dany’s dragons and their destructive power. This conversation is the focal point of the metaphysical debate in ASoS, in which we find out the foundation of R’hllorian faith.

Whether the easiest interpretation of ASOIAF is that it refers to battle between dragons vs. Others is the correct one, I am not so sure. For that equation is missing two important factors:

• Besides bringing life, fire apparently also brings death
• Ice may be symbol of the Others, but it is also symbol of the First Men, who won the first War for Dawn. Not to mention Aemon’s words about preservation.

So whatever Song of ice and fire is supposed to represent, something tells me it is not as simple as we think it is. Especially in such ambiguous world Martin has created.

Davos vs. Melisandre part 3: Stannis and Azor Ahai Reborn

“It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now,” the red woman went on, “but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord’s chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!”

First, we will analyze how Stannis is seen by different people. Melisandre here is quite clear about how she perceives Stannis in comparison to Davos. The truth is that strife between Melisandre and Davos is most likely due to their different views of Stannis. She sees the religious icon, and he sees a King, and even though it is one person, the POVs are not the same. It is like when Sansa compares Robert (Arryn) the boy, and Robert, the young lord. It is also quite interesting to see difference between Melisandre and Davos, once (or if) Melisandre finds out that Stannis is not AAR. Will she stay loyal to him, as Davos has been through all predicaments? Somehow I doubt that.

Amber in ashes can ignite great blaze. For me, this is a clear reference to Tolkien’s work and the famous:

“From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.”

When Melisandre speaks about Stannis as AAR, for me it is always as she is speaking about someone else, to be precise, about Jon. While undoubtedly Stannis is the topic of discussion, the words Melisandre is saying are somehow fitting in Jon’s story. The prophecy about AAR has been analyzed so many times; therefore I won’t do it again. I will only remind you all on Davos’ astute observation regarding Lightbringer, the sword of AAR, the one Stannis is carrying – a mess. And as Ned said “out of the mouth of the babes”, same rule can be applied here. After all, Davos is the babe when it comes to mysticism and occult.

Davos as the King’s Man

The phrase “King’s man” is rarely used in ASOIAF. We read it in rare occasions, mostly by Brotherhood without banners, who were sent in the name of King Robert. But, Davos defines himself as King’s man, especially when Melisandre’s faith caused religious division among Stannis’ supporters. Davos accepts death as one of the possible outcomes of this war, but he never stops believing in his King. As he said to Allester Florent, he won’t negotiate peace without Stannis’ permission no matter what he believes. Davos is type of man who is not blind, he doesn’t blindly follow Stannis through the wall, but he accepts that he is loyal and that he will do everything his King asks. Stannis proved himself to be good man in Davos’ eyes and therefore he could always count on Davos. For, Davos is indeed the last true King’s Man.

[Fire Eater]

One is black the other white

HoBW, and Jon is black and Ghost is white

There is ice and there is fire

Obisidian is called frozen fire according to Melisandre, and Jon is of both ice and fire as everyone knows

Bitter and sweet

It had a bitter taste . . . The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly

Male and female

Sweets the hermaphrodite

Pain and pleasure

A bloody sword was a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

Death and life

UnBeric and UnCat

Hate and love

"Do you hate her?"

"Almost as much as I love her"

Winter and Summer

The Starks thrive in winter, when they are at their height

"Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."
"Yesterday you said you loved them."
"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."
Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."
"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in a solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

Melisandre's Manichean philosophy is in direct contrast to that of the Reeds and greenseers' more Taoist philosophy that opposites can co-exist, and in harmony rather than confrontation.

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs,” Patchface proclaimed as they went. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

There’s three kinds of crabs in there. Red crabs and spider crabs and conquerors. - Lord Borrell ADwD.

Seems that crabs are here equivalent to kings. Red crab is Stannis, spider crab is Aegon and conqueror is most probably Dany.

“Asha, my two tall sons fed the crabs of Fair Isle."

As to Davos thinking he would rather feed the crabs than the flames. I think it is a way of pointing to him being loyal to Stannis, not his god.

ETA: Melisandre does bring to mind the balrog from LOTR, a creature of fire and shadow who served Melkor, the Dark Lord who provides the LOTR parallel for R'hllor as I mentioned before in an earlier post.

[Mladen]

One is black the other white

HoBW, and Jon is black and Ghost is white

There is ice and there is fire

Obisidian is called frozen fire according Melisandre, and Jon is of both ice and fire as everyone knows

Bitter and sweet

It had a bitter taste . . . The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly

Male and female

Sweets the hermaphrodite

Pain and pleasure

A bloody sword was a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

Death and life

UnBeric and UnCat

Hate and love

"Do you hate her?"

"Almost as much as I love her"

"Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."

"Yesterday you said you loved them."

"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."

Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in a solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

Melisandre's Manichean philosophy is in direct contrast to that of the Reeds and greenseers more Taoist philosophy that opposites can co-exist, and in harmony rather than confrontation.

Nice dissection of the opposites... I would like to throw a couple of ideas into that pot :)

How about that entire pairings thing is actually correlation to Jon

Black and white - Drogon and Ghost

Ice and fire - relation to swords - Ice and Blackfyre,

Bitter and sweet - the ending

Male and female - Jon and Dany, as opposites of one story

Pain and pleasure - Breaking the NW oath, emotional pain and pleasure with Ygritte

Death and life - resurrection analogy - Jon's forthcoming in TWoW

As to Davos thinking he would rather feed the crabs than the flames. I think it is a way of pointing to him being loyal to Stannis, not his god.

ETA: Melisandre does bring to mind the balrog from LOTR, a creature of fire and shadow who served Melkor, the Dark Lord who provides the LOTR parallel for R'hllor as I mentioned before in an earlier post.

Nice idea, regarding Davos... I had in mind that Patchface's line, but didn't know how to correlate it with Davos' line

As for Balrog, I wonder whether LOTR analogy for Melisandre would actually be Witch-King of Angmar. As we are told he confronted Gandalf in the Minas Tirith, and IIRC, Gandalf mentioned that he is his opposite, the opposite of Gandalf's warm fire that ignites the hope, that he is the fire that destructs... Although I could be wrong, it's been a while since I read LOTR.

[thewingedwolf]

As for Balrog, I wonder whether LOTR analogy for Melisandre would actually be Witch-King of Angmar. As we are told he confronted Gandalf in the Minas Tirith, and IIRC, Gandalf mentioned that he is his opposite, the opposite of Gandalf's warm fire that ignites the hope, that he is the fire that destructs... Although I could be wrong, it's been a while since I read LOTR.

That is an interesting parallel which I think can be pushed a step further. Remember it was mentioned that, in LOTR, the Witch-King could not be felled "by the hand of man", he was eventually killed by Éowyn (a female) with the help of Merry (a Hobbit). Nowm linking that to Melisandre, two men have so far tried, unsucccesfully to kill her, first Cressen with the poison in the prologue of ACoK and then Davos when he returns to Dragonstone and is emprisoned for attempted murder.

This may be foreshadowing that Melisandre's death will come at the hand of a woman or a beast.

[Fire Eater]

That is an interesting parallel which I think can be pushed a step further. Remember it was mentioned that, in LOTR, the Witch-King could not be felled "by the hand of man", he was eventually killed by Éowyn (a female) with the help of Merry (a Hobbit). Nowm linking that to Melisandre, two men have so far tried, unsucccesfully to kill her, first Cressen with the poison in the prologue of ACoK and then Davos when he returns to Dragonstone and is emprisoned for attempted murder.

This may be foreshadowing that Melisandre's death will come at the hand of a woman or a beast.

In that case, my money's on Val.

[Mladen]

That is an interesting parallel which I think can be pushed a step further. Remember it was mentioned that, in LOTR, the Witch-King could not be felled "by the hand of man", he was eventually killed by Éowyn (a female) with the help of Merry (a Hobbit). Nowm linking that to Melisandre, two men have so far tried, unsucccesfully to kill her, first Cressen with the poison in the prologue of ACoK and then Davos when he returns to Dragonstone and is emprisoned for attempted murder.

This may be foreshadowing that Melisandre's death will come at the hand of a woman or a beast.

In that case, my money's on Val.

Well, TBH, if we compare Eowyn to female characters in ASOIAF then Stark ladies, both Sansa and Arya are the girls we should look at.

[Arya kiddin']

In that case, my money's on Val.

Well, TBH, if we compare Eowyn to female characters in ASOIAF then Stark ladies, both Sansa and Arya are the girls we should look at.

Val is the closest to Melisandre, so she may indeed do the deed. Though I for some reason expect her to kill Shireen in future.

As for a parallel to Eowyn, Arya is indeed a good parallel, but Brienne fits much better.

Edit: typos

[yomi]

Nice dissection of the opposites... I would like to throw a couple of ideas into that pot :)

How about that entire pairings thing is actually correlation to Jon

Black and white - Drogon and Ghost

Ice and fire - relation to swords - Ice and Blackfyre,

Bitter and sweet - the ending

Male and female - Jon and Dany, as opposites of one story

Pain and pleasure - Breaking the NW oath, emotional pain and pleasure with Ygritte

Death and life - resurrection analogy - Jon's forthcoming in TWoW

There is also this information Maester Aemon gives us:

Drangons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.

Which makes it kind of funny, that Mel who follows a religion that centers around fire which is a quiet flickering thing draws such keen contrasts between opposites.

Val is the closest to Melisandre, so she may indeed do the deed. Though I for some reason expect her to kill Shireen in future.

As for a parallel to Eowyn, Arya is indeed a good parallel, but Brienne fits much better.

The ASoIaF character that reminds me most of Eowyn is Lyanna, but she is dead and thus no candidate for killing Melisandre. How about Meera? She's kind of an Eowyn-Merry-mixture, being a weapon-using woman and small :D

[thewingedwolf]

There is also this information Maester Aemon gives us:

Which makes it kind of funny, that Mel who follows a religion that centers around fire which is a quiet flickering thing draws such keen contrasts between opposites.

The ASoIaF character that reminds me most of Eowyn is Lyanna, but she is dead and thus no candidate for killing Melisandre. How about Meera? She's kind of an Eowyn-Merry-mixture, being a weapon-using woman and small :D

I was thinking of Brienne. Although the encounter is less likely there is the following:

1. Motive - revenge for Renly's death

2. She is a woman and a warrior

3. Pod could be viewed as Merry (the difference in size, Brienne looking out for him)