Blue Winter Rose - Sansa Stark?

[Roadside Rose]

Even though Arya is explicitly linked to Lyanna a few times in the story, it seems like Lyanna actually embodies the worst tendencies of the Stark sisters in AGOT (assuming she ran away with Rhaegar and wasn't abducted): Arya's impulsiveness and wilful tendencies and Sansa's romanticism (could you imagine Arya weeping over some dude's harp playing?) and tendency to make extremely crappy decisions for love.

I see Sansa as a far likelier candidate for being abducted, bearing her abductor's rape (?) baby, and falling in love with her abductor than Arya, for a number of reasons, if we assume that the "abductor" in this scenario is Petyr Baelish and the "abduction" has already taken place.

So true.

[ARYa_Nym]

Newstar I agree in the sense that Lyanna is not a success story. Ned was trying to tell Arya that she is not a role model. Don't be like her. If you are you will end up dying young.

Anyways, as for love that's the major difference but that doesn't make Arya not like her. Catelyn, liked the story of Jenny of Oldstones and Prince Duncan and dressed up like Jenny while Petyr was the Prince of Dragonflies. Arya would think that story is stupid and would never do that. Sansa is more likely to like that.

Sansa is more likely to become a mother and marry some high lord like Catelyn.

Does that mean that Arya is not similar to her in various ways? No. It's the same with Lyanna.

Arya's lack of interest is actually similar to Egg but I don't see her ending up like him either. That's impossible.

As for the war thing Sansa didn't indirectly cause a war. What happened between Joffrey and Ned had nothing to do with Sansa and it really starts with Lysa and Petyr.

I don't see why anyone would want Sansa to be the Lyanna here since LF is the Bael figure for her.

[Newstar]

I don't see why anyone would want Sansa to be the Lyanna here since LF is the Bael figure for her.

Basically. Does anyone want Sansa to fall in love with LF and have his baby?

Newstar I agree in the sense that Lyanna is not a success story. Ned was trying to tell Arya that she is not a role model. Don't be like her. If you are you will end up dying young.

Yes, but it seems as if Arya is learning how to control those tendencies which uncontrolled in Lyanna led her, in Ned's opinion, to an early grave.

Arya's lack of interest is actually similar to Egg but I don't see her ending up like him either. That's impossible.

It might sound cold, but despite his disastrous end and its consequences for Aegon's son and Dunk, Aegon didn't have a bad run. He married for love, had kids who survived him, and reigned for 26 years or somesuch. That's not bad for Westeros or for the Targs, many of whom had shorter reigns and died much younger.

[Ygrain]

I don't see why anyone would want Sansa to be the Lyanna here since LF is the Bael figure for her.

Is he even? Lies and Arbor gold; she is beginning to see him for what he is, and she saw him murder Lysa. I don't see a romance blossoming here.

[Roadside Rose]

I see Sansa as a far likelier candidate for being abducted, bearing her abductor's rape (?) baby, and falling in love with her abductor than Arya, for a number of reasons, if we assume that the "abductor" in this scenario is Petyr Baelish and the "abduction" has already taken place. That Bael/Baelish connection could be a coincidence, but knowing this series...

It occurs to me while writing this that theoretically, the Robert/Rhaegar/Lyanna situation could replay itself if Sandor showed up in the Vale to rescue Sansa from her betrothal to Harry the Heir. It would seem to defeat the purpose of Sansa's political training if after everything she'd learned to date, she rejected a politically advantageous match for love, but it might fit--if GRRM could contrive a plausible reason for Sandor to roll into the Vale--and she certainly seems pretty sour on political marriages whatever her training might be. (I know I said she's not going to run off with some random cute boy who makes cow eyes at her, but a Sandor whom she's fantasized about, etc. etc.? Maybe.) Her "father" in this scenario would be Petyr Baelish. The outcome would still be the same--her abductor dying, Sansa bearing his bastard child, Sansa dying (in childbirth, maybe)--but the players would be different.

I really like this theory, and I think it's plausible. I think she is tired of political marriages too. She needs a break from them.

[Newstar]

I really like this theory, and I think it's plausible. I think she is tired of political marriages too. She needs a break from them.

Well, if she does run off with the Hound--or anyone, but the Hound seems the only likely candidate for a replay of the Robert/Rhaegar/Lyanna situation--it will no doubt end as badly for her as it did for Lyanna, so it's not exactly something to be wished for. GRRM seems pretty clear on this: "You can choose romantic love over everything else, as long as you know it's going to blow up in your face with horrifying, disastrous consequences. CHOOSE ACCORDINGLY." If Sansa ever decides to chuck it all in favour of romantic love and decides to follow her heart, it will probably be the last thing she ever does, just as it was Lyanna's (assuming Lyanna ran away willingly with Rhaegar).

The Bael/Baelish link does make me think Petyr has the edge in the "Father of Sansa's Bastard Child" sweepstakes.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes, but it seems as if Arya is learning how to control those tendencies which uncontrolled in Lyanna led her, in Ned's opinion, to an early grave.

It might sound cold, but despite his disastrous end and its consequences for Aegon's son and Dunk, Aegon didn't have a bad run. He married for love, had kids who survived him, and reigned for 26 years or somesuch. That's not bad for Westeros or for the Targs, many of whom had shorter reigns and died much younger.

She is in terms of her impulsiveness. It was also rebelliousness/disobedience and she is already being disobedient towards the FM.

That's true. I see it like Catelyn. He had a good life but a bad end.

SPOILER: He seemed to have the same mindset of Arya at 11.

“…the orphan girls had made a game of rubbing Egg’s shaven head for luck. It made the boy blush redder than a pomegranate. “Girls are so stupid ,” he would say. “The next one who touches me is going into the river.” Dunk had to tell him, “Then I’ll be touching you. I’ll give you such a clout in the ear you’ll be hearing bells for a moon’s turn.” That only goaded the boy to further insolence. “Better bells than stupid girls ,” he insisted, but he never threw anyone into the river.”

He changed his mind at some point. Will Arya? Who knows. So far it's not looking like it or if she'll have the chance to.

Lyanna's story seems to revolve around love/doomed romance. Catelyn-motherhood. Arya's is death. So while I think she does have some similarities her life will not pan out like either.

[greensleeves]

I think that if we're looking for implications of being a 'winter rose', you at least have to look for similarities between the Bael the Bard story and Lyanna. For example, the Stark woman in the Bael story supposedly doesn't die until her son is grown.

I think the main implication of being symbolized by a blue rose is just being a Stark woman. (I think either Sansa or Arya could be represented by a blue rose.) You could possibly add in having a son.

[ARYa_Nym]

Both Stark women still die in the end though just not at the same time. I think the son is the most important part. The man plucks the woman and puts a flower in her place. Later on the woman is gone but there is still a son that is given to WF in the woman's place.

[greensleeves]

Both Stark women still die in the end though just not at the same time.

Well, everyone dies in the end.

The man plucks the woman and puts a flower in her place.

Thus to me saying flower=woman.

Later on the woman is gone but there is still a son that is given to WF in the woman's place.

Much later on in the Bael story... but isn't that the way it should work? Parents leave the world to their children.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, everyone dies in the end.

Thus to me saying flower=woman.

Much later on in the Bael story... but isn't that the way it should work? Parents leave the world to their children.

That's true but both of these stories are tales of tragedy. The common theme is they are taken, fall in love, get pregnant, have a son, and they die afterwards. There is also tragedy for the Bael figures. Rhaegar dies and so does Bael.

I remember someone mentioning that when someone plucks a flower from its root it later dies.

[greensleeves]

That's true but both of these stories are tales of tragedy. The common theme is they are taken, fall in love, get pregnant, have a son, and they die afterwards. There is also tragedy for the Bael figures. Rhaegar dies and so does Bael.

I remember someone mentioning that when someone plucks a flower from its root it later dies.

I'm pretty sure you can graft roses onto a new root system (not that it matters).

Roses are commonly used to represent women with modifiers to specify something basic about the woman ('she's an English rose', 'yellow rose of texas', .... 'blue rose of Winterfell').

I don't see why it has to be taken beyond that.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm pretty sure you can graft roses onto a new root system (not that it matters).

Roses are commonly used to represent women with modifiers to specify something basic about the woman ('she's an English rose', 'yellow rose of texas', .... 'blue rose of Winterfell').

I don't see why it has to be taken beyond that.

We are looking at the entire story and what they have in common.

Anyways the wiki says:

In some cultures, blue roses are traditionally associated with royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor. In Chinese folklore, the blue rose signifies hope against unattainable love.^[14]

Another meaning of the blue rose is that it symbolizes the impossible, or the unattainable. Since the blue rose itself is a rarity in nature, it stands for something that is hardly within one's grasp, an object that seems too difficult to be achieved. Thus the blue rose is admired and revered as an unrealizable dream.

The blue rose is a flower that seeks to convey a message of mystery, enchantment and a sense of the impossible. One should never forget that as a flower that is not found freely in nature, the blue rose has a certain charm and unique mystery that does not reveal itself freely.

http://www.roseforlove.com/the-meanings-of-blue-roses-ezp-39

The unattainable aspect here could be a lasting happy ending and life for the couples and their son. Both stories have similar tragic elements to them.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Come on people Arya is 11 or 12. Lyanna was 15-16 when she went all hormonal. It's really early to say Arya isn't capable of romanticism like Lyanna was. Now from what we've seen, Arya likely won't run off like that (or would she?).

The blue rose is definitely Lyanna, because of the crown Rhaegar gave her, and because Ned found her dying while holding possibly that very same crown (or at least holding some blue roses).

[J. Stargaryen]

Well, everyone dies in the end.

Thus to me saying flower=woman.

Much later on in the Bael story... but isn't that the way it should work? Parents leave the world to their children.

I'm not so sure that interpretation is entirely correct. I mean it does seem, at first glance, as if Bael is "swapping" the girl for the rose, straight up. But, that is only part of the story. After all, Bael only borrowed the Stark daughter. Not only did he return her, but he also left Winterfell with a son and heir.

Considering that both blue rose stories in the series have Stark daughters giving birth to sons, I find it difficult to disentangle the sons from the symbolism. Combined with some "heavy handed" symbolism in The moment when all the smiles died and it seems like there is more to the equation than blue roses = Lyanna and/or Stark daughters.

[greensleeves]

We are looking at the entire story and what they have in common.

Anyways the wiki says:

http://www.roseforlo...ue-roses-ezp-39

The unattainable aspect here could be a lasting happy ending and life for the couples and their son. Both stories have similar tragic elements to them.

The stories I know involving blue roses usually have the blue rose associated with immortality/youth (Baba yaga). Blue roses don't occur in nature and are thus natural to use as a symbol for magic or the goal of a magical quest.

The Starks are already magical though... so meh.

Combined with some "heavy handed" symbolism in The moment when all the smiles died and it seems like there is more to the equation than blue roses = Lyanna and/or Stark daughters.

That's why I think there's a possibility of it representing Stark women who become mothers.

[Roadside Rose]

In some cultures, blue roses are traditionally associated with royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor. In Chinese folklore, the blue rose signifies hope against unattainable love.

That's a nice bit of information, Arya_Nym.

I also checked what black roses said,

The color black has always been synonymous with death and mourning. It is thus the color of sadness and farewell. So, many people consider black roses to symbolize bereavement, loss and mortality.

The fear in her eyes dimmed as he gave her his word. She smiled, the same sweet smile she would smile when he brought her the blue roses he had brought her when he was naught a boy. "Bring me home, Ned. Bring me home. I want to be with father and Brandon."

"I will," he choked, "I will, Lya."

At his reassurances, she relinquished her hold on life and let out her last breath, murmuring a man's name. Her hands slipped from his, rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. Lyanna was fond of flowers, he recalled in a daze, especially;blue roses.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

That's why I think there's a possibility of it representing Stark women who become mothers.

Sure, but in both cases those new mothers had given birth to sons.

Btw, did you take a look at the link I provided?

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Rhaegar spurns Elia for Lyanna, then places a crown of winter roses in Lyanna's lap. Which, if you substitute "winter roses" with "Jon," reads a lot like what we know about R+L=J.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

It occurs to me while writing this that theoretically, the Robert/Rhaegar/Lyanna situation could replay itself if Sandor showed up in the Vale to rescue Sansa from her betrothal to Harry the Heir. It would seem to defeat the purpose of Sansa's political training if after everything she'd learned to date, she rejected a politically advantageous match for love, but it might fit--if GRRM could contrive a plausible reason for Sandor to roll into the Vale--and she certainly seems pretty sour on political marriages whatever her training might be. (I know I said she's not going to run off with some random cute boy who makes cow eyes at her, but a Sandor whom she's fantasized about, etc. etc.? Maybe.) Her "father" in this scenario would be Petyr Baelish. The outcome would still be the same--her abductor dying, Sansa bearing his bastard child, Sansa dying (in childbirth, maybe)--but the players would be different.

Please no. Don't let this come to pass. Don't let this girl run off with Sandor and die having his bastard no matter how many times she fantasizes about him kissing her. Just no.

[greensleeves]

Sure, but in both cases those new mothers had given birth to sons.

Btw, did you take a look at the link I provided?

I've read it before.

Rhaegar spurns Elia for Lyanna, then places a crown of winter roses in Lyanna's lap. Which, if you substitute "winter roses" with "Jon," reads a lot like what we know about R+L=J.

I believe R+L=J... I just don't buy 'winter roses' = Jon. If you include motherhood in the 'winter rose' symbolism then the exchange works just as well (now Rhaegar is symbolically making Lyanna a mother... and a royal mother at that). This interpretation has the added advantage of making sense when her crown turns black and dies.

Edit: You could also potentially leave out the motherhood aspect... By taking her as his wife/lover Rhaegar makes Lyanna royalty (thus the crown).

Please no. Don't let this come to pass. Don't let this girl run off with Sandor and die having his bastard no matter how many times she fantasizes about him kissing her. Just no.

I agree.