Catelyn Stark's biggest mistake?

[jons nissa]

I think I might push the critical crossroads of Cat's decisions back further, to the point at which she snaps out of her waking coma state and decides to go to KL to investigate. I think the "wrong choice" might have been her decision to leave Winterfell in the first place. The book presents this choice as quite reasonable-- it's clear that Cat and even Ned at this point believe that there is a conspiracy brewing, and given Lysa's letter about Jon Arryn, that her family's life is in great danger potentially. I don't begrudge her this choice-- I don't think it was "wrong" exactly, but I think that decision is more of a "choice" than much of what she was dealt later (for example, she couldn't not arrest Tyrion after she was recognized). I wonder if there was an alternative way for her to deal with informing Ned, and/or remaining at Winterfell. In hindsight, the Hand's Tourney would have been the perfect excuse and cover for either herself or Robb to come to KL in the open.

i agree. another point to consider is that by the time catelyn "snaps out of her waking coma state" robb has already assumed the role of decision maker so it is a double whammy. so by the time of the trident, she no longer has as much authority as she did when ned first left winterfell. robb has already sorted out winterfell after the huge impact of a visit of the royal court. he has already called the banners to avenge his father's arrest. no one questioned his authority to do so showing that everyone "recognized" his authority to do so. and quite frankly, with cat gone, robb did have the authority to do these things. so yes, the ball was already rolling for quite some time when catelyn finally connects with robb at the trident.

[MRHD]

Another thought: Tywin's decision to attack the Riverlands might have actually been a good thing for the Northern cause. The raiding ensured that when the situation REALLY unfurled with Joffrey's ascent and Ned's beheading that the Riverlands were strongly tied with the Stark cause.

Granted, it's unlikely that Hoster/Edmure would have pulled a Lysa and sat things out. But by striking the Riverlands Tywin basically forced the Riverlands to take up the North's cause, and led them to do so fervently to get justice for their own wrongs. If they were simply joining the war to see justice for wrongs done only to the Starks you could see a situation where some Tully bannermen aren't quite as wedded to the cause and more likely to pull a RR era Walder Frey, sitting it out.

[mrunderhill]

Er... because she's plotting against his family?

Plotting what exactly? Nothing suggest he is plotting a military attack, but capturing his son is going to do that.

... you think that Tyrion would be taking word to Cersei personally? Why? He has two able-bodied men and plenty of coin to hire someone if he doesn't want to send either of them.

Tyrion simply has more resources in this situation. About the best Cat can hope for is matching his ability to get a message to King's Landing - assuming she is able to get a message away at all. There's no scenario where Cat doing nothing when Tyrion sees her buys more time, for her or Ned or Edmure or anyone else.

If Tyrion thought it was urgent he could send a messenger like you suggested.

However, capturing Tyrion does not stop the message getting to Kings Landing. It just adds something extra to annoy the Lannisters. Instead of "Cat was meeting Ned secretly" we now get "Cat was meeting Ned secretly AND captured your son."

There is no way capturing Tyrion does not escalate matters and make things worse.

I'm not absolutely sure you're right. Cat doesn't have any direct evidence implicating the Lannisters at that point, does she? If she thought she was going to be publicly testifying at a trial of some sort, it seems to me she's getting a bit ahead of herself.

I think she does. She says that they need to send someone, who will be trusted. It's not like Ned wouldn't trust Rodrik.

Who to send? Who would be believed? Then she knew. Catelyn struggled to push back the blankets, her bandaged fingers as stiff and unyielding as stone. She climbed out of bed. "I must go myself."

[Stag Country]

No, it quite emphatically isn't: you can tell, because the words 'for the hell of it' do not appear anywhere, nor does any similar phrase appear. That's not his argument, that's your deliberate mischaracterisation of the argument. That's clear as day. Saying that Cat is not responsible for Tywin's actions is not even remotely the same as saying that Tywin had no reason for invading the Riverlands: any more than me saying 'I'm not responsible for you getting into a fight' emphatically says that you had no reason to throw a punch. It's quite possible you had another reason.

This is a ridiculous straw man that you set up: a textbook example of the tactic, as I said above. You can insist until you are blue in the face that it isn't, but you are arguing with the facts. The only alternative explanation is that you are unable to read a forum post yourself. I'd hate to think that was the case, but if the shoe fits...

Again. You don't know what a strawman argument is if you are using it in this context. I'm done debating this with you. When I say they assume he'll attack "just for the hell of it" it is not a deliberate mischaracterization when someone had said earlier that regardless of Catelyn's actions Tywin would still attack. My characterization is 100% correct.

Again, don't mistake what did actually happen for the only thing that could have happened. LF quite clearly leads Ned to the information he needs: he can have no other reason for doing so than that he wants Ned to find out.

It's hilarious that this advice is coming from you. When you are the one arguing that regardless of Catelyn's actions war was inevitable. I guess you only apply that logic when it supports a mindless defense of Catelyn.

He also advised Ned not to trust him. ;)

Yes, LF said this: it's quite clear that he never expected Ned to accept that advice, and in fact banked on Ned not accepting it.

Littlefinger's motives are one of the mysteries behind the series. It's made pretty clear by later events that he absolutely does not want Stannis in power, presumably because he doesn't think he can play his games with him in charge. So I don't really see how you can say he was giving Ned advice that was obviously contrary to his personality, and then assume that he knew he wouldn't take it. Is that not the very same scene where Ned swallows his pride, and offers to pay Littlefinger to get support from the city watch....something that is also counter-intuitive to Ned's personality? Again you are leaping to conclusions about , as yet, unrevealed motivations and then pushing them on everyone as fact.

Getting back to that bit about being able to read a forum post... I never said that Ned would not support Joffrey as Robert's son. I said that the Lannisters had to be prepared for the risk that Ned (and/or Stannis and Renly) would not support Cersei or Tywin as Regent. The Lannisters, after all, are not Ned's favourite people, and they know it.

My comment about you following a forum post was in regard to you completely ignoring the totally bogus assertion put forward by pikachu in post #166 where he/she says "She's not responsible for Tywin's actions....." and then "It (Catelyn's grab of Tyrion) didn't lead to everything that came later, Ned's arrest did. What does that have to do with Tyrion's arrest exactly?"

That is a comment by someone that simply did not read the novels or some deliberately trying to convince people taht might be confused about the sequence of events as to what happened. The war in the novels was well underway by the time Ned was arrested and later executed. His/her comment made absolutely no sense. It had nothing to do with whether or not Tywin might have been anticipating hostilities.

Apart from her father's illness not being public knowledge, it's ludicrous to suggest that Cat would do this in secret. She has no conceivable reason to do so.

Look, the Lannisters have every reason to be deeply suspicious of any story that Cat gives out, and no story that I've ever seen suggested (including in this thread) bears a moment's scrutiny by even a person who doesn't have a good reason to be suspicious. If your argument relies on Tyrion suddenly becoming extremely credulous to the point of gullibility, it's not a good argument.

It is well know that Hoster has been ill, it's only the degree that has been kept secret.

From GoT pg 286 in the paperback (the Chapter where Tyrion is arrested): "If Winterfell needed to brace for war, how much more so Riverrun, so much closer to King's Landing, with the power of Casterly Rock looming to the west like a shadow. If only her father had been stronger, she might have chanced it, but Hoster Tully had been bedridden these past two years, and Catelyn was loathe to tax him now."

Traveling incognito is not unheard of at all for many of the nobles in Westeros. It's hardly "ludicrous" and it can be easily justified using the rationale I stated.

[Gannicus]

Stag Country you present your case very well and you've been making a lot of sense throughout the thread.

The simple fact is readers are very defensive of their favorite characters and they only want to look at the situation from a certain perspective. There is little point in continuing the carousel.

Cat has a lot of great qualities in a person but she was put in a horrible position. Most characters wouldn't have done better with the hand she was dealt. Robb would have done better to follow her advice more. That's hard to argue against.

But she also made mistakes that had devastating consequences. It's mind numbing how many posters refuse to recognize her role in bringing about those consequences.

[Daena the Defiant]

Stag Country your present your case very well and you've been making a lot of sense throughout the thread.

But she also made mistakes that had devastating consequences. It's mind numbing how many posters refuse to recognize her role in those consequences.

I guess it's just equally mindnumbing how she gets blamed for the actions of others. Arresting Tyrion does not mean that people get killed. Tywin ordered those deaths. He is the one responsible for those consequences.

[Fauch]

Catelyn actually got pretty lucky that capturing Tyrion had little to no consequence. Thanks to Cersei bedding Jaime and Cersei getting rid of Robert soon enough, the War of the 5 Kings was inevitable.

If not, abducting Tyrion might have well been the start of a war where the North stands alone against the rest of the realm.

I guess it's just equally mindnumbing how she gets blamed for the actions of others. Arresting Tyrion does not mean that people get killed. Tywin ordered those deaths. He is the one responsible for those consequences.

In the world of ASoIaF abducting the son of one of the major houses is a perfectly fine reason to go to war. If the Lannisters had captured Catelyn, don't you think Rob or Ned wouldn't have at least called the banners too?

[jons nissa]

The simple fact is readers are very defensive of their favorite characters and they only want to look at the situation from a certain perspective. There is little point in continuing the carousel.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

this should be the motto for westeros.org. it applies to every character, from the humble dolorous edd to the haughty cersei (this is really not catelyn specific at all or specific to any other character), many fans will defend their favorites to the bitter end and usually be unable to see another perspective from theirs as valid regardless of how sound the reasoning might be.

[David Selig]

In the world of ASoIaF abducting the son of one of the major houses is a perfectly fine reason to go to war. If the Lannisters had captured Catelyn, don't you think Rob or Ned wouldn't have at least called the banners too?

They didn't go to war when the Lannisters did worse than a capture to Bran. Rickard didn't start a war when Lyanna was abducted and Brandon arrested.

[Daena the Defiant]

In the world of ASoIaF abducting the son of one of the major houses is a perfectly fine reason to go to war. If the Lannisters had captured Catelyn, don't you think Rob or Ned wouldn't have at least called the banners too?

If she had abducted him, I guess a proportional response would be install forces around some of the key castles of the Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance or perhaps go to court and press for his release. Considering that she publicly arrested him with her father's armigers in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son, I'm not sure your suggesting is relevant.

Or, even if I guess it could come to open war if they abducted Catelyn on the road. But I definitely think that Lord Hoster or Ned would not have sent an army of mysteriously dressed commandos to slip into Westlands and start murdering peasants in retaliation. Nope.

I also remain skeptical that the Lady Regent of Winterfell publicly arresting a member of House Lannister in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son with the publicly declared intention of remanding him for a trial even requires any response other than "What? I demand that I learn of your proof!" Demand a fair trial under the universal law and the king's peace that they all subscribe to by swearing fealty to the Iron Throne.

For all Tywin knows, Tyrion could have very well have been guilty. So why start a war over it?

[butterbumps!]

The simple fact is readers are very defensive of their favorite characters and they only want to look at the situation from a certain perspective. There is little point in continuing the carousel.

Cat has a lot of great qualities in a person but she was put in a horrible position. Most characters wouldn't have done better with the hand she was dealt. Robb would have done better to follow her advice more. That's hard to argue against.

But she also made mistakes that had devastating consequences. It's mind numbing how many posters refuse to recognize her role in bringing about those consequences.

I know I was late to this party, and I usually agree with you on most things, but I'm not sure that this is entirely what's going on with Cat's character. The weird thing about Cat is that everything conspires against her such that the decisions she makes are fairly moot. The most "decision-making" I could trace back to was leaving Winterfell in the first place, because after that point she really is in a whirlwind of futile actions, which is in itself an interesting topic.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what the cause-effect of Cat's "actions" even are; we know Tywin and Cersei were in fact conspiring and that the war would happen anyway. What really annoys me is that Cat is repeatedly blamed for Tywin's subsequent actions, which were disproportionate and clearly broke the king's peace rather than the peaceable arrest had. To say that Tywin's actions were a result of Cat's is rather disingenuous; he's the one who behaved inappropriately. His response was subsequent but not a direct, inevitable consequence of the Catnapping.

I think there are a few places where Cat is tragically flawed, but I don't think her actions wrt Tyrion are loaded with as much cause-effect as so many on here seem to. I think that's part of why she's such a sad character-- she doesn't even have the agency to bring her own tragic downfall (though, I think she was supposed to be spared until she killed Jinglebell, which was her last stand at making a real choice, and with that act brought her downfall, I think).

[Fauch]

If she had abducted him, I guess a proportional response would be install forces around some of the key castles of the Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance or perhaps go to court and press for his release. Considering that she publicly arrested him with her father's armigers in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son, I'm not sure your suggesting is relevant.

Or, even if I guess it could come to open war if they abducted Catelyn on the road. But I definitely think that Lord Hoster or Ned would not have sent an army of mysteriously dressed commandos to slip into Westlands and start murdering peasants in retaliation. Nope.

I also remain skeptical that the Lady Regent of Winterfell publicly arresting a member of House Lannister in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son with the publicly declared intention of remanding him for a trial even requires any response other than "What? I demand that I learn of your proof!" Demand a fair trial under the universal law and the king's peace that they all subscribe to by swearing fealty to the Iron Throne.

For all Tywin knows, Tyrion could have very well have been guilty. So why start a war over it?

Neither Ned nor Hoster would have sent Raiders into the west, we agree on that. However, Catelyn just snatching Tyrion of the road is against the law, that is for sure. If she had at least brought him straight to Kings Landing to have a trial before the king, that would have been excusable. Instead she drags him to the Eyrie and puts him down for a dose of Lysa Arryns justice.

Things just don't work like that.

edit: (Not to mention she obviously had no proof, since we know Tyrion was innocent)

[Daena the Defiant]

However, Catelyn just snatching Tyrion of the road is against the law, that is for sure. If she had at least brought him straight to Kings Landing to have a trial before the king, that would have been excusable.

First of all, your point is contradiction with itself, but I will get to that in a minute.

It's not for 'sure' to be against the law since tend to people disagree in equal parts. It's your opinion, unencumbered with any textual support that it's against the law, but no one in universe seems to object, least of all the random knights that Catelyn calls upon to enforce her seizure in the king's name.

"I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I had bedded here," she told the innkeep. She could hear the muttering, feel the eyes upon her. Catelyn glanced around the room, at the faces of the knights and swords and took a deep breath to slow the frantic beating of her heart. Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears. "You in the corner," she said to an older man she had not noticed until now. "Is that the black bat of Harrenhal I see embroidered on your surcoat, ser?"

The man got to his feet. "It is, my lady."

"And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?"

"She is," the main replied stoutly.

Ser Rodrik rose quietly and loosened his sword in its scabbard. The dwarf was blinking at them, blank faced with puzzlement in his mismatched eyes.

"The red stallion was ever a welcome sight at Riverrun," she said to the trio by the fire. "My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen."

The three men-at-arms exchanged uncertain looks. "Our lord is honored by his trust," one them said hesitantly."

"I envy your father all these fine friends," Lannister quipped, "but I do note quite see the purpose of this, Lady Stark."

She ignored him, turning to the large party in blue and grey. They were the heart of the matter, there were more than twenty of them. " I know your sigil as well: the twin towers of Frey. How fares your good lord, sers?"

Their captain rose. "Lord Walder is well, my lady. He plans to take a new wife on his ninetieth name day and has asked your lord father to honor the wedding with his presence."

Tyrion Lannister sniggered. That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. "This man came into my house and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face.

Secondly, of all, either is a lawful seizure or it isn't. The destination doesn't make a difference as to that. You can't have it both ways.

Instead she drags him to the Eyrie and puts him down for a dose of Lysa Arryns justice.

Yes, once again, a decision made by some one NOT HER.

The crossroads gave her pause. If they turned west from here, it was an easy ride down to Riverrun. Her father had always given her wise counsel when she needed it most, and she yearned to talk to him, to warn him of the gathering storm. In Winterfell needed to brace for war, how much more so Riverrun so much closer to King's Landing, with the power of Casterly Rock looming to the west like a shadow. If her father had been stronger, she might have chanced it, but Hoster Tully had been bedridden these past two years, and Catelyn was loathe to tax him now.

The eastern road was wilder and more dangerous, climbing through the rocky foothills and thick forests of the Mountains of the Moon, past high passes and deep chasms to the Vale of Arryn and the stony Fingers beyond. Above the Vale, the Eyrie stood high and impregnable, its towers reaching for the sky. There she would find her sister ... and perhaps some of the answers Ned sought, Surely Lysa knew more than she dared put in her letter. She might have the very proof that Ned needed to bring the Lannisters to ruin, and if it came to war, they would need the Arryns and the eastern lords who owed them service.

Yet the mountain roads were perilous. Shadowcats prowled those passes, rock slides were common and the mountain clans were lawless brigands, descending from the heights to rob and kill and melting away like snow whenever the knights rode out from the Vale in search of them. Even Jon Arryn, as great a lord as the Eyrie had ever known, had always traveled in strength when he cross the mountains. Catelyn's only strength was one elderly knight, armored in loyalty.

No, she thought, Riverrun and the Eyrie would have to wait. Her path ran north to Winterfell, where her sons and her duty were waiting for her. As soon as they were safely past the Neck, she could declare herself to one of Ned's bannermen and send riders racing ahead with orders to mount a watch on the Kingsroad.

[....]

Catelyn knew them all: the Blackwoods and the Brackens, ever enemies whose quarrels her father was obliged to settle; Lady Whent, last of her line, who dwelt with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal; irascible Lord Frey, who had outlived seven wives and filled his twin castles with children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, and bastards and grandbastards as well. All of them were sworn to the service of Riverrun. Catelyn wondered if that would be enough, if it came to war. Her father was the staunchest man who'd ever lived, and she had no doubt that he would call his banners.... but would those banners come? The Darrys and the Rygers and Mootons had sworn oaths to Riverrun as well, yet they'd fought with Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident, while Lord Walder Frey had arrived with his levies well after the battle was over, leaving some doubt as to which army he had planned to join (theirs, he had assured the victors solemnly in the aftermath, but ever after her father has called him the Late Lord Frey). It must not come to war, Catelyn thought fervently. They must not let it."

What part of that do you disagree with? Should she have not gone to her sister on the off chance that her sister might be nuts and decide to put her prisoner on trial for a crime other than that she arrested him for?

You know, generally speaking, reasonable people tend to lay blame on others for the repurcussions of their activity when the negative results are within the bundle of risks you assume when do any activity. Reasonable people tend not to blame people whose explainable behavior somehow provokes bafflingly unpredictable behavior in others.Just so you know.

edit: (Not to mention she obviously had no proof, since we know Tyrion was innocent)

Well's that not true. She has a weapon. She has a witness who will say that he observed the weapon in the possession of the suspect. She has proof that the suspect was in the vicinity when the crime happened. That's evidence, it's circumstantial and it's ultimately wrong but once again reasonable people tend not to contemn people for failing to predict the unpredictable such as Petyr lying about it.

[a free shadow]

What really annoys me is that Cat is repeatedly blamed for Tywin's subsequent actions, which were disproportionate and clearly broke the king's peace rather than the peaceable arrest had. To say that Tywin's actions were a result of Cat's is rather disingenuous; he's the one who behaved inappropriately. His response was subsequent but not a direct, inevitable consequence of the Catnapping..

I sometimes tend to hijack threads for small questions of my own. I apologise. But here I would like to ask for further explanation with some particulars, rather than general rounding up.

First, the arrest was hardly peacable. Tyrion was taken by force and imprisoned without any hearing, instead of, for example, being brought in front of the king. When Eddard gets imprisoned, Robb gathers an army and marches on the king. It is beyond reason to expect that someone with a reputation like Tywin will allow the imprisonment (and likely death) of his son go unpunished.

These are the particulars. Now, where does even a theory of a custom of peaceful solution come from? It looks like it is rationale from outside the books. We certainly had no such examples in Westeros.

[Daena the Defiant]

These are the particulars. Now, where does even a theory of a custom of peaceful solution come from? It looks like it is rationale from outside the books. We certainly had no such examples in Westeros.

Since Tywin never actually took up official arms until Robert was dead, the release of Tyrion was ordered by the king without any claimed military activity from Lannister HQ.

[Fauch]

That's not evidence at all. Those are "clues". She arrests Tyrion on the word of Petyr Baelish. Could she have known that LF was lying? Not at all. But she also couldn't be sure he was telling the truth.

By that logic you could seize anyone you ever like, because some clues point to them being guilty. That is gestapo justice. First! you have a trial, then you arrest people. Catelyn certainly had no authority to arrest Tyrion. In fact, Robert, the King, demands that Catelyn release Tyrion.

If Catelyn was so sure of Tyrion being guilty, why not go with him to Kings Landing and have a trial there? Tyrion was going to KL anyways, and her witness (LF) was also there.

[Daena the Defiant]

That's not evidence at all. Those are "clues". She arrests Tyrion on the word of Petyr Baelish. Could she have known that LF was lying? Not at all. But she also couldn't be sure he was telling the truth.

Well, what you call 'clues' are definitely things that are allowed to be used as evidence in many of the trials I have myself have participated in. Clearly just those two tidbits of information - means and opportunity - are not enough to really try someone for conspiracy to commit murder but it definitely could be enough to obtain a warrant for arrest considering that the informing source is deemed reliable.

But you like to play semantics and seem to think that your use of the Straw Man fallacy is effective. - you call an arrest 'a snatch' even though in-universe it's an arrest. You deride circumstantial evidence as 'clues.'

edit: Also - you don't think police departments all around the world make arrests of people based upon information provided by a single witness who could be lying? Really? Ah-mazing.

[Fauch]

No matter how you word it, Catelyn is in the wrong here. She has no authority to arrest Tyrion. She could have taken her "evidence" and went to the King (who is the authority). Instead she takes matters into her own hands, arrests Tyrion, and brings Tyrion somewhere where he is least likely to get a fair trial. She is basing this on her hope that Lysa must have actual evidence on Tyrion's guilt - which she doesn't.

edit: You seem to think Catelyn is the official Westerosi police. Ah-mazing indeed.

[David Selig]

Catelyn certainly had no authority to arrest Tyrion.

Martin himself disagrees with this assertion. He said when asked that she would have a stronger claim if it had happened in the North, but this implies she had a claim in the Riverlands. Legality in Westeros is much more murky and on case to case basis than in our word.

As far as Tywin know, that arrest was made on the orders of Ned, who was the Hand. Which makes it perfectly legal and Tywin's retaliation was clearly illegal.

[Daena the Defiant]

No matter how you word it, Catelyn is in the wrong here. She has no authority to arrest Tyrion. She could have taken her "evidence" and went to the King (who is the authority). Instead she takes matters into her own hands, arrests Tyrion, and brings Tyrion somewhere where he is least likely to get a fair trial. She is basing this on her hope that Lysa must have actual evidence on Tyrion's guilt - which she doesn't.

Once again, on what do you base that assertion? She is the Lady Regent of the North. Her absent husband imbued her with ruling authority.