Theory: Jon and Jaime, two characters, one story

[Blede]

I expressed part of this theory in various posts, I'm putting them together and adding some other thoughts.

WARNING: I assume R+L=J and the Great Northern Conspiracy theories to be true.

The theory is that Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister are the two sides of the same story.

Their beginnings are the exact opposite of each other.

-Jon Snow (from now on JS) is the great lord's bastard son, who will never inherit anything and is looked upon by everybody because of that.

-Jaime Lannister (from now on JL) is the great lord's beloved heir, the golden boy.

Both built their lives around a lie:

-In JS's case, being Eddard Stark's bastard son.

-For JL, the mutual love between him and his sister Cersei.

This lie made them join a sworn brotherhood. Their careers mirror each other.

-JS arrives at Castle Black a pissed, disillusioned jerk. But after some time, he starts taking the Night's Watch seriously, and grows to respect it and its ideals.

-JL was full of ideals of the awesomeness of the amazing Kingsguard, he is finally with his idols, it's all perfect. But he immediately sees that the king he guards is a madman and that he only indicted him to spite Lord Tywin. And his respect for the Kingsguard's ideals (and vows) disappears.

Then the war starts (the War against Mance and the Others for JS, the War of the Five Kings for JL), and our heroes go to fight. During this war, they end up captured by their enemy, who doesn't kill them though, but sends them back on a mission.

-JS must fight with Styr's warband and capture Castle Black for the King-beyond-the-Wall.

-JL must return Sansa and Arya to Catelyn Tully.

They betray their former captor's trust, and suffer a great loss for it.

-JS abandons Styr's warband at Queenscrown, and in the ensuing Battle of Castle Black, Ygritte, his love, dies.

-JL tries to break free and kill Brienne, but is captured by the Bloody Mummers, and loses his sword hand.

After this loss, their characters start to change and take after the other's.

-JS becomes jaded, seemingly uncaring, mocks people in his thoughts.

-JL learns to hold his tongue and curb his recklessness, he becomes concerned with his honour.

Their stance on their brotherhood and the related vows is reinforced, though.

-JS tries even harder to adhere perfectly to the Night's Watch vows, identifies himself with the black cloak.

-JL wants to marry Cersei in public, and make Joffrey marry Myrcella, to show everyone that the Lannisters are above the laws of gods and men, like the Targaryens, and thinks he should have made kingslaying an habit like Robert liked to say.

They return to their base (JS returns to Castle Black, JL to King's Landing), and other people make them leaders of their brotherhood.

-JS becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch due to Samwell's schemes.

-JL is named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard by Queen Cersei (he was already Lord Commander, but he gets in charge only now).

They then send their former enemy and captor on a quest to free one of the Stark sisters.

-JS sends Mance Rayder to Winterfell to free "Arya".

-JL sends Brienne to find Sansa and keep her safe.

After this, the elements of their stories are mixed up.

Learning the truth about the lies they built their lives around.

-JL learns that Cersei doesn't really love him ("She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know"). The revelation hits him like a ton of bricks, and prompts him to slowly change and become the opposite of the person that made him believe in that lie (Cersei). Thus he starts keeping his Kingsguard vows, believing the brotherhood's ideal and behaves accordingly.

-I think JS will find out about R+L=J after reviving/recovering from the stabbing. If he goes the same path JL took, he will change and slowly become the opposite of Ned Stark (being stabbed by his brothers will help for that) and stop believing in the Night's Watch and his vows.

After some time, they receive a message telling that their Stark girl rescue mission is failing just on the brink of success, and they abruptly abandon their brotherhood and their vows (temporarily, they think) to salvage the mission.

-JS receives Ramsay's letter telling that "Arya" and Reek escaped, but he found Mance and the spearwives (and is currently flaying them), defeated Stannis, and is going to take his bride and his plaything back.

-Brienne tells JL that she has found Sansa, but the Hound has her and will kill her on the morrow unless JL alone comes with Brienne to rescue Sansa.

Betrayal from people they trust

-JS is stabbed by his brothers (those he showed contempt for and that hate him) for trying to rescue "Arya" from Ramsay (or maybe just to stop the Watch's "new course").

-Brienne is most likely taking JL to Stoneheart and her band. He will feel betrayed, but somehow he will escape the situation (I don't think he will be executed, or that Brienne will go with him).

Now, entering the uncertain realm of predictions:

-The Great Northern Conspiracy will offer the crown of the North to JS, and he will accept. He will try to get his new kingdom ready for the Others' onslaught, but it won't be enough and he will be forced to fall back south.

-JL will return to King's Landing hell-bent on protecting King Tommen. After losing the capital to Aegon, or Daenerys, the royal family will flee to Casterly Rock, where Cersei's growing madness and paranoia will make her inadvertently kill Tommen in some way, and JL will be forced to kill her to avenge the King.

-At this point Daenerys will have defeated Aegon, and with the help of Tyrion she will take Casterly Rock. JL will be taken prisoner. She will want to execute him, but Tyrion will convince her to just keep him in a cell.

-Desperate for help against the Others, JS will propose a marriage alliance to Daenerys, swearing to pledge his kingdom to her. She will accept, and Westeros will be one again. JS and Tyrion will then convince Daenerys to spare JL and force him to take the black to atone for his actions.

-With help from Daenerys and the dragons, JS will finally drive back the Others and win the war.

And thus the story will end:

-JS will be the arrogant, oathbreaking jerk on the Iron Throne (JL on the Throne after killing Aerys would be foreshadowing for this), whose bad deeds will be forgotten because he is the hero who saved Westeros from the Others.

-JL will be the honorable, oathkeeping Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, whose goods deeds will be forgotten, he will always be the Kingslayer.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Extremely interesting observations. I'm not totally convinced of the future predictions, because their stories could also keep mirroring each other in other ways, but there certainly are a lot of motifs which have been explored in their character arcs in parallel (yet often opposite) directions.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Good theory. Quite a few very close matches with some of the events.

I can see Jaimie taking the black at some point. Definite LC material.

Not so sure about Jon on the IT.

[Imp Riker]

Also, there are similarities between Jaime's weirwood stump dream and Jon's crypts of Winterfell dreams.

[MidnightAurora]

Very good thoughts. I agree with most except I think the stabbing of JS will reawaken him and realize who he truly is and where his true place is. I also think Jaime and Jon have to come together at some point whether to fight with or against each other I do not know. I am just referring to the vision Cat had in the sept in ACOK and the pairings she saw and Jaime/Jon were one of the pairing.

[DreamSongs]

Good post. I don't like to drag HBO into the books, but there is that scene at Winterfell between Jon and Jaime which never occurs in the books. Some relationship/parallel was being pointed at. Thank you for assimilating these two into one.

[KJR the PR of TaFW]

wow, i never saw it like that... thats crazy awesome

[Blede]

Extremely interesting observations. I'm not totally convinced of the future predictions, because their stories could also keep mirroring each other in other ways, but there certainly are a lot of motifs which have been explored in their character arcs in parallel (yet often opposite) directions.

I'm not very sure about the predictions myself (which is normal I think, being predictions), especially those revolving Jaime. I'm more confident about those about Jon, though.

Very good thoughts. I agree with most except I think the stabbing of JS will reawaken him and realize who he truly is and where his true place is. I also think Jaime and Jon have to come together at some point whether to fight with or against each other I do not know. I am just referring to the vision Cat had in the sept in ACOK and the pairings she saw and Jaime/Jon were one of the pairing.

I didn't intend that Jon's stabbing itself will reawaken him and reveal him about his parentage, only that when he will recover he will learn about it (someone will tell him, probably the same guys offering him the crown on behalf of the Conspiracy).

I think they will meet too, if he takes the black they will all fight the Others together after all.

Good post. I don't like to drag HBO into the books, but there is that scene at Winterfell between Jon and Jaime which never occurs in the books. Some relationship/parallel was being pointed at. Thank you for assimilating these two into one.

That scene was what made me think about them, actually.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

That is the only way I see Jon and Dany marrying for purely political benefits. I still won't like it but I wouldn't be as upset as I would be if they fell in love and married

[Nephenee]

Interesting post overall.

WARNING: I assume R+L=J and the Great Northern Conspiracy theories to be true.

It's a rule of thumb to not use other theories in order to make your own theories, because it just makes your theory seem all the more unreliable. While they may have a good chance of being true, it still isn't 100%--otherwise it wouldn't be called a theory. I also don't find these theories necessary assumptions in your post, personally, because Jaime and Jon have a lot of things in common.

-For JL, the mutual love between him and his sister Cersei.

This is just flat out false. I'm not sure why you think it's a lie; Cersei clearly did love Jaime. Jaime was simply deluded on Cersei's true nature, but there's no indication that there was any great lie in Jaime's life.

I think a much greater comparison to make would be to allude to the fact that both Jaime and Jon are outcasts: Jon is a bastard who lives in the house of his "father," as a symbol of a broken vow (marriage vows, because Ned cheated on Catelyn), whereas Jaime lives in the castle in which he killed his King--and just like Jon, he too has to live as a symbol of a broken vow (as the man who killed his King).

And his respect for the Kingsguard's ideals (and vows) disappears.

This isn't true either. It's very clear that Jaime still respects the Kingsguard as an institution--hence why he is still there, and hence why he is filling the White Book with information. He also often alludes to Ser Arthur Dayne, and talks about how the Kingsguard was better in the past. It's very clear that he still has a great opinion of the concept of the Kingsguard but he isn't happy with the way things are now.

You would have been wise to say that both were prodigies: Jaime joined the Kingsguard at the same age as Jon became Lord Commander.

They betray their former captor's trust, and suffer a great loss for it.

Bolded part: I highly doubt that Vargo Hoat ever trusted Jaime. Jon was accepted by the wildlings, whereas Jaime really was just a piece of shit hostage to them.

-JS tries even harder to adhere perfectly to the Night's Watch vows, identifies himself with the black cloak.

It's worth noting that Jaime has a white cloak whereas Jon has a black one.

Learning the truth about the lies they built their lives around.

-JL learns that Cersei doesn't really love him ("She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know"). The revelation hits him like a ton of bricks, and prompts him to slowly change and become the opposite of the person that made him believe in that lie (Cersei). Thus he starts keeping his Kingsguard vows, believing the brotherhood's ideal and behaves accordingly.

-I think JS will find out about R+L=J after reviving/recovering from the stabbing. If he goes the same path JL took, he will change and slowly become the opposite of Ned Stark (being stabbed by his brothers will help for that) and stop believing in the Night's Watch and his vows.

I think a much better way to make a comparison would be to allude to the fact that both were betrayed, because part of this is a pure assumption (that Jon will find out soon) and the other part is just not true (Cersei did love Jaime, but she wasn't a very good person). Cersei betrayed Jaime and Jon's brothers betrayed him.

[butterbumps!]

nice work Blede. The analysis of the parallels stand on their own even outside of the predictions. I absolutely agree that Jaime and Jon are foils of each other: "the white knight in black and the black knight in white" is how I think of it. While I don't agree with your predictions in specifics, I agree that Jon is going to become blacker and perhaps Jaime a bit lighter.

To add to your parallels, Martin makes a fairly overt one in the first Jon chapter, aGoT, during the feast. Jaime is dressed in Rhaegar's colors, and Jon observes that Jaime looks every bit a king-- it's an R+L hint, as Jaime is used as a frquent foil to Rhaegar throughout, showing us also how Jon thinks about kingship and beauty at that point:

He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen’s brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

[Papa Stark]

Wonderful connections and very well said too! The parallels are striking, especially when put into such a concise post, the theories about the future get a bit blurry, but that's all one can really expect when making predictions.

Huzzah to Nephenee too!

: "the white knight in black and the black knight in white" is how I think of it.

Love that!

[Winter's Prince]

I definitely think Jaime will not die yet, and will be in the Battle against the Others.

[Eating My Wings]

I think a much greater comparison to make would be to allude to the fact that both Jaime and Jon are outcasts: Jon is a bastard who lives in the house of his "father," as a symbol of a broken vow (marriage vows, because Ned cheated on Catelyn), whereas Jaime lives in the castle in which he killed his King--and just like Jon, he too has to live as a symbol of a broken vow (as the man who killed his King).

But unlike Jon, Jaime brought that upon himself :P

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I'm not very sure about the predictions myself (which is normal I think, being predictions), especially those revolving Jaime. I'm more confident about those about Jon, though.

Yeah, I understand that. Even though in pure terms of numbers, Jon will most likely be the focus of more text than Jaime, it's probably Jaime's story that has more unknowns in it (starting with how exactly his LS encounter will be resolved). I'm reasonably certain that your prediction about Jaime killing his sister who he loved will come true though, which of course again would nicely mirror the Jon marrying his aunt who he doesn't love prediction.

Oh, and unrelated to the post I'm replying to, but I have to pay tribute to butter's bon mot about the black knight in white and the white knight in black. Love it. Let's see if they exchange cloaks one day, would be the icing on the cake.

[DreamSongs]

Oh, and unrelated to the post I'm replying to, but I have to pay tribute to butter's bon mot about the black knight in white and the white knight in black. Love it. Let's see if they exchange cloaks one day, would be the icing on the cake.

And at some point, they both become gray. Perhaps we should be discussing the 'friend that follows and supports'. Sam or Brienne?

If Jon and Jaime ultimately turn into gray characters, then the only thing that distinguishes their trajectory are the people that follow them.

[The Mediocore Ron]

I agree with a lot of your comparisons except for Jon being a jerk. That is a Lannister/Targareon trait.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I agree with a lot of your comparisons except for Jon being a jerk. That is a Lannister/Targareon trait.

He is a Targaryen...

[sightofthesun]

Very interesting OP! I like the connections you've made between Jaime and Jon, I'd never noticed them before.

If Jon becomes king (which I personally hope he doesn't), I can see him becoming a bit of jerk. I just don't think he and Dany will get married, it would be too cliche IMO.

However, I love the idea of Jaime fully redeeming himself and becoming LC of NW but still being perceived as an oathbreaker and kingslayer. :)

[TheJazzMan61]

I'd never noticed this mirroring before and I find it all very interesting. The only things that I disagree with are your future predictions concerning JS. I don't believe that he will sit on the Iron Throne and I really hope that Jaime completely reforms to be a man of honour.