A different discussion about Catelyn

[Miodrag]

Re: Ned/Cat marriage. If I remember correctly, at the beginning of the story they are the only inter-religion couple in the realm. Latter on we have Robb/Jeyne and Roose/Walda, but the first one didn't last long, while the second one is too strange to be taken into any context. (Jorah's wife was a Hightower from the south, too, but their marriage is also a failed one.) What I want to say is that the respect Ned and Cat have for each other, even in terms of religion, does speak volumes about their human qualities. In fact, it speaks how tolerant and open-minded they both were. And both of them proved it many times further on.

Re: Jon situation. I understand Cat's misgivings and what troubles her. Any woman in her position would feel the same. But, at the end of the day, Jon did suffer because of the way she treated him. She could've been worse, and many other women would be worse, but it still doesn't mean she was right. Cat-hate is something I'll never understand, even in this situation. She is the victim too, and so is Ned. But I believe it's wrong to deny Jon suffered the most. And part of his suffering - maybe even the biggest one - was for the way Cat treated him. She is the mother of his siblings, and she is the wife of his father, and the lady of the house she lives in. When growing up, he couldn't help but look at her as a mother figure. And she didn't play the role. She had her reasons, but how is he, a child, to understand those reasons? I don't get why people fail to understand her and why people hate her, but it's not like a big "I'm sorry" from her would hurt Jon. Everything wrong she did to him could be corrected with a hypothetical "I'm sorry", so at the end of the day consequences on Jon were not beyond repair, but some consequences were there nevertheless.

Re: her mothering. I'd like to see some Cat-haters deal with no less than five children separated by thousands of miles and in the middle of a war. She was a good mother, just like Ned was a good father. Stark kids were actually blessed with their parents, and they know it.

Re: her suggestion at the Stannis/Renly parlay. I forgot about that one, but whoever brought it up has my compliments. It was, as someone said, Cat at her best, finding an optimal political solution in a matter of seconds and in a dramatic circumstances. Martin did write her as a highly intelligent person, which is why it puzzles me when some claim she's not the brightest one out there.

[Fish Swim]

Of all the main characters who are raised to be followers of the Faith, she is the most devout by far. Yet she also accept that the Old Gods exists and have significant power, even before the direwolves showed their unusual abilities.

And, she respects people's belief in the Old Gods, even though she doesn't share it. In last Catelyn chapter in AGoT, when she finds Robb and his bannermen praying in the Riverrun godswood, she waits for them to finish even though she has been looking for him, because "it would not do to disturb them at their prayers." Perhaps you could say it's nothing more than common courtesy, but I think it's a sign of respect that I'm not sure everybody would show.

[Maia]

You guys want something else, seldom mentioned to criticize about Cat? I have given you that, but there seems to be no interest :(...

I think the decision to bring the kids was made before they found out the Lannisters killed Jon.

Nope, the decision is made _after_ they got Lysa's secret message, which makes it all the more bizarre. Ned decides to take kids into the middle of a highly explosive criminal investigation, where he is half convinced already that the Lannisters might be guilty... and babbles something about having to foster good feelings among his and Robert's kids.

As if it would matter, if Ned ever got to publicly accusing the Lannisters, leave alone got them condemned. Even good-natured Tommen would have hated Starks forever for something like this. Or if Lannisters found out what he was doing. He was stupidly putting his kids in danger and the normally politically-savvy Cat didn't object?! There were so many logical arguments against this.

Sansa was betrothed to Joffery, so taking her was a givin. She was supposed to learn to be a proper Queen from cersei.

Arya was taken because they felt she was too wild up north. A southern education was supposed to turn her into a proper lady.

Except that they didn't trust Cersei an inch, so they wouldn't want her to take charge of the girls, now would they? And who was supposed to do the "polishing" of Arya? They had no friendly highborn lady at court that they could charge with it and Ned let her run wilder than ever, with quite bad consequences. In fact, once Ned took Arya away from Winterfell, her education as a lady effecitively ceased.

Not to mention that since Ned himself made a southern marriage, it would make sense to strengthen Stark's northern ties and Arya would have fit better in the North.

Even with Sansa, it wouldn't have been unusual to leave her at home after betrothal. Cat was betrothed at 12 and remained home until her marriage.

Once the fall happened and they found the note from Lysa, it would have been suspicious to not send the girls south.

On the contrary, it was a perfect excuse to leave the girls at home, to console and succor the grieving mother. And they received Lysa's note before Ned even agreed to become Hand, so Cat had always known into what kind of situation Ned was heading... and yet did nothing to convince him to leave kids at home!

Frankly, that never made sense to me... but there it is.

Aaand, I just can't help myself and am going to jump into the Jon mess. A lot of good arguments were already made, but:

Even Ned refers to her call to pack Jon south to face the stigma bastards face at court "damnably cruel," words Ned doesn't use lightly.

And it is one of the situations where Ned makes things worse than they had to be. He is lying through his teeth and Cat knows it. Bastards have been Hands, members of the Small Council and served in the Kingsguard, as well as held other important offices. It is an obvious chance for Jon to have a career and life of his own, away from Winterfell and threat to his siblings inheritance. Yes, Jon would face a certain amount of snubbing, but that would have been the case anywhere outside Winterfell.

Yet, inexplicably and ominously (for Cat), Ned refuses, as he had refused other attempts by her to see Jon steered towards a future outside Winterfell in the past.

Cat's treatment of Jon is on her. It's not on Jon for having the temerity to be born, not on Ned for not cluing her in

No, it is absolutely on Ned. He created the situation, where a wife would have had to be a saint to treat Jon better than he was treated by Cat. In fact, it is because Cat is such a fundamentally decent person that things went as well as they did.

I mean, look at Ned's actions: he brought a boy that is very close in age to Robb, Cat's firstborn, to Winterfell. In fact the boy was there before Robb, even. This was a huge slap in the face and public humiliation to his new wife.

He raised this boy among his legitimate children and basically as one of them, gave him the same education as his heir, took him along with his heir to visit the bannermen (!), had him present when he instructed Robb in rulership, etc . He resisted all and any attempts to find Jon a respectable path away from Winterfell. And to add insult to injury, Jon had the "Stark" look, where Cat's own sons had not.

All of this made Jon a threat in Cat's eyes - and would have in the eyes of any woman in her position.

I mean, what is she supposed to think? It seems as if Ned is poised to replace Robb with Jon if Robb proves disappointing in any way. It is just extremely fortunate that Robb is Jon's equal. And if something happens to Robb?

You'd say that a loving parent shouldn't consider such things, but in their society it is a part of life and should be considered by a responsible adult. Cat's 2 elder brothers died in infancy. No wonder that Bran is "her special boy" - I bet that it was only with his birth, after the 2 girls, that Cat felt that her children's inheritance was truly secure!

Re: clueing Cat in, I absolutely understand why Ned didn't do so in the beginning. But later... IMHO he misjudged her. Ned's nephew, however dangerous his secret, would have fit into Cat's "family, duty, honor" framework as Ned's bastard never could have.

As would have any pre-existing children of a widower, if she was marrying one - I am sure that Cat would have done her best to be a mother to them and raised her children to be loyal to older half-siblings.

In fact, Cat's treatment of Jon is in fact all the more jarring and distasteful because she's capable of such kindness and warmth not only towards her own children, but towards most other people,

If Jon had been a girl or a scholarly, unmartial lad destined for maesterhood, or even clearly steered into a respectable career that wouldn't have impunged on positions of her children, I am sure that she would have been able to be kind to him. Unfortunately, Ned chose to position and raise Jon in a way that made him seem maximally threatening to Cat.

The only way it could have been worse was if _Robb_ was sickly, unmartial or a girl.

Add to that that Ned was stonewalling all and any inquiries re: Jon and never discussed a future he envisioned for him with Cat, nor could he explain to her why he was against such otherwise entirely sensible moves as fostering/squiring or sending him to the Citadel . I mean, what _were_ his plans for Jon? Did he always secretly hope that Jon would chose the Night's Watch?

You don't find it vindictive that she finds ways to remind Jon constantly that he's not one of the legitimate Starks (seating him at the back of the hall at the feast, which GRRM suggests in his SSM was typical of Cat's behaviour towards Jon

No, I don't find it vindictive. Jon is not a Stark, nor can he become one, unless all his siblings are dead or at their expense. That is the truth of his situation, and it is none of Cat's doing.

Sitting him with the royal family would have provoked a scandal, nor would Ned have wanted him sitting there and attracting attention, even if Cat didn't oppose it.

Jon was sitting with the squires, other lads of comparable age and noble birth - Cersei's own cousins likely among them. Yet, they were so far beneath his notice, that we didn't get their names and descriptions. All Jon could do was bitterly brood about how he didn't get to sit with the royal family!

Don't you see that he had a major entitlement problem, given that he was never going to be his siblings social equal, unless he earned it via some kind of outstanding service? Don't you see that Ned's ubringing hurt Jon in certain ways, made him discontent with things that would have been perfectly normal for 99% of even legitimate noble boys his age?

or callous that she flat-out refuses to allow Jon to stay at Winterfell when Ned goes south for no other reason than she doesn't want him around,

Yes, because she should have been saddled with the thankless and distasteful task of enforcing the new social gulf between Robb and Jon. Robb was supposed to start coming into his own as the heir, become part of Cat's councils, etc. Where would that have left Jon? Finally being made a squire/guardsman, as fit his social position and age? Imagine the storm of friction and bitterness that would have caused, coming from Catelyn! Ned was amazingly selfish and callous to even suggest this, IMHO.

And, of course, he can't explain why he refuses to even countenance such a logical step as taking Jon along to KL and finding him a position there.

I dunno about any decent mother, but any decent human being would be horrified at the idea of sending a boy off to a life--a life--of danger amid extremely harsh conditions, with no family of his own.

Did you conveniently miss the fact that Benjen - a trueborn Stark, joined NW when he was only a couple of years older than Jon and seems to thrive there?! Neither Cat, nor the kids know about the true conditions on the Wall - clearlly, another one of Ned's dubious choices, likely because he hoped that Jon would join NW when he came of age.

I don't see why Cat should have been horrified that Jon would voluntarily follow his uncle into what she thinks is a respectable and honorable calling, good enough for a Stark.

And the fact that Jon would have a beloved uncle to be a surrogate father for him certainly figured into her glad acceptance of this solution. She was actually considering Jon's well-being in all of this, too. Again, she couldn't have known how the things would turn out for them!

But Cat is over the moon, because it means she'll be rid of him. I also think any decent human being would think twice before shipping someone away from the only home he's ever known

Oh, please. It is perfectly normal in this society to foster/squire boys from the age of 7 on. Or apprentice them, among the lower classes for that matter. Doesn't mean that their parents aren't decent or don't care, but they have to plan for their children's future - something that, to Cat's knowledge, Ned refuses to do regarding Jon, BTW.

How old were Ned and Robert when they were shipped to the Vale? Aemon when he was shipped to the Citadel? Jaime, Doran, etc. when they were squired? Osric Stark when he was shipped to the Wall, given that he was made LC at 10? A hint - they all were much younger than Jon.

Jon is actually rather old to be still in the nest. And again, that is, of course inexplicable and omnious for Cat - why is Ned so set on keeping Jon at Winterfell? Why isn't he planning something, anything, for Jon's future?

Now, we, the readers know, of course, that most of the normally logical moves re: Jon were closed to Ned, because there were people still alive who knew who Jon was... and possibly disagreed with Ned's decision to deprive him of his claim. Jon couldn't have been sent to the Citadel or taken along to KL because of this.

And, I have a feeling that Ned was afraid of even letting Jon out of Winterfell, where he could control access to him, because of it. The plan was to keep Jon around as long as possible and mold him in such a way that even if he somehow learned the truth, he wouldn't act on it. Or to hope that once Jon reached majority, he'd volonteer for NW and make all dynastic considerations moot.

But still, it was an amazingly "head-in-the-sand" approach. I mean, what if something happened to Ned? Cat would have provided for Jon, of course, but she may have unwittingly brought him into the orbit of people in the know. Why were there no contingency arrangements? Why didn't Ned give Cat to understand that he never intended for Jon to be a rival to her children and had different plans for his future?

Etc, etc.

[David Selig]

Maia, I meant to respond to your first post earlier, but somehow got distracted.

Anyway, better late than never. The fact that Sansa, the future queen, and Arya, one of the most highest ranked nobles in Westeros, had one septa to take care of them and one girl (Jeyne Poole, who is a really minor noble) who came with them, is one of the things in AGOT which Martin didn't think through IMO. They should've had a way bigger retinue and it was obvious Septa Mordane was overwhelmed by the task even in Winterfell where she got major help from Cat and others to keep Arya in line.

Anyway, I think taking Sansa can be explained somewhat by he need not to draw suspicions, but you are right that Arya and bran coming doesn't make much sense. Maybe Ned didn't really believe the letter before he got word on the attack on Bran with the Valyrian dagger, but Cat took it seriously... Plot convenience, I guess.

Good post on Jon/Cat situation. Yeah, thee thread wasn't suposed to be about this, but this wasn't followed much, so...

It's Ned who allowed Jon to go to the Wall without explaining him the real situation there. He's the one who didn't tell him something like "If you don't like it there and changed your mind, you can leave, I'll find you something else to do, there's no shame in that and it won't be dishonorable", and didn't provide for him any options in case he changed his mind. If anyone is to blame, it's him.

[Daena the Defiant]

[...]

Etc, etc.

Brava!

[chicky]

You've summed up brilliantly everything I could have ever wanted to say.

[Arya kiddin']

The winner post. :bowdown:

[Arya kiddin']

The winner post. :bowdown:

[Arya kiddin']

The winner post. :bowdown:

[Arya kiddin']

The winner post. :bowdown:

[Mark Antony]

The winner post. :bowdown:

That was indeed a excellent post!