House Stark of Harrenhal (long, but with TLDR summary)

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I believe poor Edmure and that unfortunate child of his will soon be over. I honestly believe that Tullys won't make to the end of ASOIAF. Now, both Sansa and Alayne has claim to Harrenhal. Alayne through LF, Sansa through Whents. At the end, one of those claims will bring her Harrenhal. I believe most likely it will be Stark one, when she reveals her identity, but she might get Harrenhal before it as Alayne.

I don't think that Littlefinger will bother with legitimising Alayne. I think he'll privately tell Harry and those who need to know before the wedding, and just reveal it to everyone else on the day.

[BanzaiZ]

Very nicely done. I've been wondering since the PtP post as well if a possible Lady of Harrenhal end is possible for Sansa. You did a wonderful job with linking all of the context and background together.

[oprahnoodlemantra]

Isn't Alayne going to be revealed as Sansa? Alayne isn't a real person so there wouldn't be an actual claim. I still don't know how Littlefinger is going to justify marrying Sansa to Harry because she's already married to Tyrion.

[Mladen]

I don't think that Littlefinger will bother with legitimising Alayne. I think he'll privately tell Harry and those who need to know before the wedding, and just reveal it to everyone else on the day.

You think he would risk that way. Cersei and Tommen signing that Alayne is legitimate is something I easily see him doing. Right under Cersei's nose, just like with poisoning Joffrey, snatching Sansa or even killing Ned (if you believe he did that). He is nothing if not daring.

Very nicely done. I've been wondering since the PtP post as well if a possible Lady of Harrenhal end is possible for Sansa. You did a wonderful job with linking all of the context and background together.

Thanks... Compliments also go to all those that helped me - Bran Vras and butterbumps

Isn't Alayne going to be revealed as Sansa? Alayne isn't a real person so there wouldn't be an actual claim. I still don't know how Littlefinger is going to justify marrying Sansa to Harry because she's already married to Tyrion.

First, Alayne is supposed to be revealed as Sansa at the wedding, not before. That's why legitimizing her is almost necessary. Other lords would start protesting that LF's bastard is marrying an heir to Vale of Arryn. A man that might one day become their liege lord. Don't you think some of them have some daughters to push it under his nose? The marriage will never happen, the period to the point of wedding is important.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

You think he would risk that way. Cersei and Tommen signing that Alayne is legitimate is something I easily see him doing. Right under Cersei's nose, just like with poisoning Joffrey, snatching Sansa or even killing Ned (if you believe he did that). He is nothing if not daring.

Maybe. :dunno: If you're right about Edmure (which I hope you're not), it won't matter anyway.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

Excellent post.

If someone goes to the trouble of writing a 4500 word post then it's only courteous to read it.

some of the ideas seem very possible, but it is a bit happy ever after for GRRM, and if Sansa did end up there, she would fall victim to the Curse herself.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

Isn't Alayne going to be revealed as Sansa? Alayne isn't a real person so there wouldn't be an actual claim. I still don't know how Littlefinger is going to justify marrying Sansa to Harry because she's already married to Tyrion.

Littlefinger is waiting for "Cercei to be finished [hunting Tyrion down] and Sansa widowed" . the Vale lords would accept a legitimate heir to Harrenhal, (at a pinch, given who her 'father' is), and just before the vows... TAA DAA its the Heir to the North. a much more acceptable bride for their Lord Paramount. He may have to get rid of the Boltons first, because at the moment Sansa Stark is Heir to nothing, and is wanted for Regicide.

[Mladen]

Excellent post.

If someone goes to the trouble of writing a 4500 word post then it's only courteous to read it.

some of the ideas seem very possible, but it is a bit happy ever after for GRRM, and if Sansa did end up there, she would fall victim to the Curse herself.

Thanks... I hope it wasn't too tiresome reading the whole thing... I have no problems with people skipping it...

As for happy ever after, do you actually think, that after everything Sansa suffered, any ending would be happily ever after? After watching her father getting killed, being beaten, threatened and tossed around from one marriage to another. Is that something that leads to some happy ending? No. I believe that Sansa will find satisfactory end, but in no way it will be "happily ever after". Simply, with all that she has survived, that option isn't viable.

Littlefinger is waiting for "Cercei to be finished [hunting Tyrion down] and Sansa widowed" . the Vale lords would accept a legitimate heir to Harrenhal, (at a pinch, given who her 'father' is), and just before the vows... TAA DAA its the Heir to the North. a much more acceptable bride for their Lord Paramount. He may have to get rid of the Boltons first, because at the moment Sansa Stark is Heir to nothing, and is wanted for Regicide.

What are Stannis and the rest of the Northmen doing right now if not getting rid of Boltons? I believe Boltons will be done, LF will continue with his plans to marry Sansa for Harry, but in the meantime he will legitimize her so all Vale lords would give their blessing. In the meantime, Sansa will find out about LF's crime, most notably Jeyne Poole, death of her father, starting the Wo5K. Or simply he will force himself on her, and she will finish him off. Once LF is dead, she will tell Vale lords who she is, and the marriage will be put aside until situation with Tyrion is resolved... And once Dany comes to Vale, with Tyrion, anything can happen...

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Great essay buddy.

[Foothill]

Sorry if I am asking something you answered in your post that I missed (which is great by the way)...

In your theory, do you have a possible spouse in mind for Sansa?

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

LF will continue with his plans to marry Sansa for Harry, but in the meantime he will legitimize her so all Vale lords would give their blessing. In the meantime, Sansa will find out about LF's crime, most notably Jeyne Poole, death of her father, starting the Wo5K. Or simply he will force himself on her, and she will finish him off. Once LF is dead, she will tell Vale lords who she is, and the marriage will be put aside until situation with Tyrion is resolved... And once Dany comes to Vale, with Tyrion, anything can happen...

The more I think about this, the less I'm convinced that Littlefinger will ask Cersei/Tommen to legitimize "Alayne." First, as I've already indicated, I don't think it's necessary (i.e., since the betrothal is Lady Waynwood's call, and she's already agreed to it)--we can certainly agree to disagree on that point.

Second, why would he want to bring any undue Lannister attention to his never-before-seen-or-heard-of bastard daughter, who crops up immediately after the Purple Wedding and is of an age with Sansa Stark, who disappeared during that wedding?

*UGH! Edited for humiliating typo.

[Joe Pine]

I enjoyed reading that theory, well done Mladen

Harrenhal to me is the place that the stand against the others is made. We know its not Dragon proof, but with the blood in the walls like Winterfell and Storm's End, it's one of the few place men can stay safe from The Others.

[Mladen]

Sorry if I am asking something you answered in your post that I missed (which is great by the way)...

In your theory, do you have a possible spouse in mind for Sansa?

No... I believe that for some time Sansa will parallel the life of Sharra Arryn, who was the Queen regent of the Vale at the time of War of Conquest. She sent her portrait to Aegon the Conqueror with marriage proposal, but he refused. In Sansa's case, I think most likely it will be Littlfinger who will do her portrait and try to make her Queen by marrying Aegon. That will never happen due to fact Aegon will marry Arianne. Another parallel is how Rhaenys conquered Vale by allowing Sharra's son to ride dragon. Or in this case, Dany will let SR ride a dragon...

I don't have husband for the time being for Sansa.

The more I think about this, the less I'm convinced that Littlefinger will ask Cersei/Tommen to legitimize "Alayne." First, as I've already indicated, I don't think it's necessary (i.e., since the betrothal is Lady Waynwood's call, and she's already agreed to it)--we can certainly agree to disagree on that point.

Second, why would he want to bring any undue Lannister attention to his never-before-seen-or-heard-of bastard daughter, who crops up immediately after the Purple Wedding and is of an age with Sansa Stark, who disappeared during that wedding?

Well, the other Vale lords will have saying in it... LF is not marrying anyone. He is marrying his bastard with soon to be most powerful man in the Vale. Lords will naturally try to oppose it. And beside, I told you about Lysa/LF parallel that will be model for this marriage too.

Cersei will be blinded by desire to win Aegon. And untouched Vale armies will be all she is able to see. Also, approximately a year passed since Joffrey's wedding. It's not like it will be that easy for Cersei to connect. She, after all, isn't the brightest person. LF has always done things under everyone's nose. Varys is the mysterious type, LF creates chaos in front of everyone, without even doubting in him.

I enjoyed reading that theory, well done Mladen

Harrenhal to me is the place that the stand against the others is made. We know its not Dragon proof, but with the blood in the walls like Winterfell and Storm's End, it's one of the few place men can stay safe from The Others.

Thanks, but I am not sure whether Harrenhall or for that matter Winterfell or Storm's End are safe from Others. I believe only defense Westerosi have is the Wall, and if it fells, why would any castle be the safe place?

[Dagon Blackiron]

well i just spend over 30 minutes reading this, i dont regret reading it but it is quite late now. anyway i really like the theorie but one should conisder that the whole

Harren the Black had mixed human blood in the mortar

could very well be just legend that came into the story much later, like many things in legends. or to make harren blacker than he was. but good theorie, it will be interesting how harrenhal and sansa will be used in wow.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

Well, the other Vale lords will have saying in it... LF is not marrying anyone. He is marrying his bastard with soon to be most powerful man in the Vale. Lords will naturally try to oppose it. And beside, I told you about Lysa/LF parallel that will be model for this marriage too.

Cersei will be blinded by desire to win Aegon. And untouched Vale armies will be all she is able to see. Also, approximately a year passed since Joffrey's wedding. It's not like it will be that easy for Cersei to connect. She, after all, isn't the brightest person. LF has always done things under everyone's nose. Varys is the mysterious type, LF creates chaos in front of everyone, without even doubting in him.

Is there a precedent for someone other than a child's parent or guardian "having a say" in to whom they are betrothed? As far as I can tell, it's Lady Waynwood's purview to arrange for Harold Hardyng's marriage. If your main point is that the other Vale lords will object/be upset, I can see that. But even legitimizing Alayne wouldn't change the fact that 1) her marriage to Harold means the other Vale lords' daughters/nieces can't marry him and 2) it could be seen as a power grab on Littlefinger's part. So, if the Vale lords will be upset anyway, what's the point in getting Alayne legitimized? Even if you're right, and the risk of letting the Lannisters know about Alayne is minimal, it's still a risk.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

well i just spend over 30 minutes reading this, i dont regret reading it but it is quite late now. anyway i really like the theorie but one should conisder that the whole

could very well be just legend that came into the story much later, like many things in legends. or to make harren blacker than he was. but good theorie, it will be interesting how harrenhal and sansa will be used in wow.

It's possible, but I tend to trust Old Nan stories. She seems to be a main source for exposition about supernatural stuff that is important to the story.

[Mladen]

Is there a precedent for someone other than a child's parent or guardian "having a say" in to whom they are betrothed? As far as I can tell, it's Lady Waynwood's purview to arrange for Harold Hardyng's marriage. If your main point is that the other Vale lords will object/be upset, I can see that. But even legitimizing Alayne wouldn't change the fact that 1) her marriage to Harold means the other Vale lords' daughters/nieces can't marry him and 2) it could be seen as a power grab on Littlefinger's part. So, if the Vale lords will be upset anyway, what's the point in getting Alayne legitimized? Even if you're right, and the risk of letting the Lannisters know about Alayne is minimal, it's still a risk.

You are right, but LF would also put something in that marriage. And Harrenhall isn't any castle, it's the largest castle in Westeros. If LF throws Harrenhall title with Alayne in the game, and he might, given his reluctance to take control of it, vale would also be getting something. Beautiful girl isn't enough, but heiress of Harrenhall, who will tomorrow be Lady Paramount of Riverlands is a big deal. The point of legitimizing Alayne is for LF to give something, and not to take. As for the risk, risk is the minimal, and beside when did LF played safe? I mean he is risk-taker by definition.

[grand old duke of stark]

Bravo, Mladen. This was well thought out and well presented. I tend to find most Sansa theories the triumph of hope over experience, but this one coheres very well indeed. Equally intriguing is the question of what Sansa will do with this power once she gets it.

By the way, an earlier poster asked a question, but I have not seen an answer. What is TLDR?

[Mladen]

Bravo, Mladen. This was well thought out and well presented. I tend to find most Sansa theories the triumph of hope over experience, but this one coheres very well indeed. Equally intriguing is the question of what Sansa will do with this power once she gets it.

By the way, an earlier poster asked a question, but I have not seen an answer. What is TLDR?

Thank you for kind words

TLDR: Too Long Didn't Read... The post is 4500 words long, and I did that summary, so those who don't like long reading could be introduced to basics of the theory and analysis.

[Blood of the Trout]

This was wonderful, Mladen. I really enjoyed it. And it never occurred me that Sansa might inherit Harrenhal, but you make some compelling points.