Doesn't it seem weird how long R+L stayed at TOJ?

[J. Stargaryen]

Read better then. I never said it was the tipping point of the rebellion. Merely the tipping point. Here, I'll eve quote it for you:

Everything I said before "tipping point" should have made it perfectly clear what I was talking about. You're the one who classified it as "tipping point of the rebellion" in your haste to argue with me.

Keep at it though. I'm sure your endearing attitude will pay off somewhere down the line.

By all means then, explain yourself.

We know rebellion was already brewing before Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon. Their deaths were simply the tipping point.

Tipping point for what?

[corbon]

Except it's so much more than just a broken betrothal. Rhaegar has disappeared with the daughter of a Lord paramount and the fiancee of a High Lord with impunity, and (in most people's eyes) the King is refusing to return said daughter to her father and or betrothed.

You are assuming that. It is not necessarily so.

Better yet, Rhaegar shows up with the corpse of said noble daughter a year later.

Maybe, maybe not. Without the rebellion he could maybe have appeared earlier, or perhaps Lyanna might have had better care or surroundings and survived, who knows.

Either way its a bit silly to assume that they planned for her to die in child birth. She's supposed to live, as is the third head of the dragon.

Don't forget he also has some serious witnesses to the marriage in Dayne and Whent.

We know rebellion was already brewing before Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon. Their deaths were simply the tipping point.

Stick to the history. There was no rebellion brewing. Some alliances, some political connectiosn, no rebellion.

Rhaegar's actions would have had the same basic effect. No one in the North would have stood for the crown prince running off with Lyanna Stark and then killing her (even if that's not what happened, that's what it's going to look like).

this is pure invention. Rhaegar's actions objectively did not have the same effect. And no, people aren't automatically going to assume he killed her. Not with a child in play. They know already that there are risks in child bearing.

The rebellion may not have gained the massive traction it does in the original story, but it would have happened. And with both Ned and Robert at the front-lines, there's no way Jon Arryn sits this out. Neither will Hoster Tully, considering what an opportune moment this is for him (like in the actual rebellion).

Why no way? If Stark and Baratheon choose to rebel over a relatively minor thing, thats there business. Jon Arryns seems to have been a better man than to involve the Vale unless it was necessary. However when Aerys starts willy nilly calling for the heads of High Lord who haven't done anything, then everyone is at risk.

And without Jon Arryn, no Hoster Tully, by your own argument.

There were already whispers of rebellion where Aerys' reign was concerned. Rumours that Rhaegar was planning on deposing him, Rickard's supposed "southron ambitions", the defiance of Duskendale.

Rhaegar's stuff is speculative, whispers, and not rebellion. Rickard's southron ambitins are building a power block, not open rebellion. Duskendale was a one-off, localised event years before.

And how on earth were the deaths of Rickard and Brandon not the tipping point of the unrest that led to the rebellion? I'm fully aware that the rebellion only officially starts when Jon refuses to hand over his beloved boys, but the pointless and barbaric execution of a Lord Paramount and his heir made civil war inevitable.

It wasn't pointless for a start.

Brandon publicly committed treason, the common punishment for which is death. Rickard, not Aerys, called for a Trial By Combat with Rickard as Brandon's champion.

Legally there was nothing wrong with the two of them dying. The manner of it was pretty much cheating, but they put themselves in that legal position, not anyone else.

Barbaric, and pretty much cheating, I'll give you, but barbaric shit happens, y'know. Its not something to rebel over.

Considering what Robb did when Ned was imprisoned, it's pretty clear what the North would have done once they got news that Rickard and Brandon were executed for no reason whatsoever. And if Ned goes to war, Robert and Jon aren't going to be far behind.

There was damn good reason for Brandon's execution, and Rickard volunteered for his. (Again, the manner was cheating, but the getting there was all on the Starks).

And there is no evidence Ned would have gone to war.

The situation was different with Robb. Tywin started the war marching on the Riverlands and the Lannisters has already twcice attempted to murder a Stark, now a Lannister 'Baratheon' executed Ned Stark on clearly trumped up charges (unlike Brandon's), and Robb's men, not Robb, declared war by forcing his hand with the King in the North thing. Secession too, slightly different from rebellion.

Ned mentions that he had loved Lyanna with all his heart but Robert had loved her more. He doubted aa lot about Bob but not that he loved her.

Ned also says that Robert never knew her, never truly saw her.

He knows that Robert loved the possession/idea of her, not the sister he loved herself.

[Pikachu101]

My vote for stupidest post of the year!

He didn't start it, and he did fight in it.

That's like saying Jaime and Cersei didn't start TWotFK because they're not the ones who executed Ned <_<

Rhaegar triggered the war and then the idiot let it continue by honeymooning in ToJ whilst a civil war was in the midst.

[shearstone]

I think the rebellion would have begun without Aerys calling for Ned and Bobs head although the calling of Jon Arryn's banners may have come third instead of first. This is purely speculation on our part as Ned doesn't really discuss his feelings about finding out about his Dad and Brothers death and no prequel series about the rebellion with their thoughts and motivations (something I would like).

Ned would have called his banners once he learns about the death of his family I don't believe you can rule the north and let something like that slide. Rob would have as well as he's Neds best mate and loved Lyanna so he has more than enough excuse. Then Jon Arryn would call his banners he lost his nephew to Aerys and with his surrogate kids going to war he'd join too (I'd like to see someone argue different). So the war goes exactly the same way really.

We also don't have an accurate timeline of events for instance did Jon Arryn & Co hear about Rickards etcs death and then they received the raven asking for Ned and Bobs heads? Or did it come at the same time? I really wish we had a prequel book for all this, damn your stubbornness GRMM!

As for Rhaegar if they were receiving supplies from Starfall they could also receive news so I believe he knew about the Civil War, he likely didn't think it was important or more important than his precious PTWP until Hightower showed up and convinced him the need was dire. However I will concede that belief is bias against my considerable dislike for Rhaegar as a character.

[Renie]

do we know how long they were at the TOJ? i dont remember anything in the books that suggests that. you can go on the assumption that since Ned found them there at the end of the war then they were there the whole time but they could have been other places. if im wrong please tell me, i really dont remember where it says that they were at the TOJ for so long

My question as well. So many assumptions about something we now very little.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Just think about it. A handsome prince Locke in a tower with a beautiful woman and virtually nothing to do. What do you think they were doing there.

[Nami]

I find it interesting how some members point out others are assuming some things but then talk about a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna as if it's a known fact

[alienarea]

Just think about it. A handsome prince Locke in a tower with a beautiful woman and virtually nothing to do. What do you think they were doing there.

Surfing the weirwood net? :-)

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Surfing the weirwood net? :-)

playing scrabble obviously

[Nami]

playing scrabble obviously

Chess...

[Roxy Carmichael]

We have very different views on society and character.

Established leaders like the Targaryen Dynasty have done much worse with no significant blowback time and time again. Its simply not a 'rebellion' offence, without a lot of other stuff going on. A noble daughter being broken out of a betrothal is not a casus belli, which means that the base rebellion has less moral (and legal) legitimacy and will have much less support in general. Note how even as it was, the rebels still had internal fighting vs Lords who stayed true to the crown, before they could present a united front.

I agree. Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna Stark "caused" Robert's Rebellion the same way that the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand "caused" WWI. A massive shit storm had been brewing for years, and something was going to give... Rhaegar's choices simply got the ball rolling.

Actually, his narcissistic and single minded pursuit of prophecies - to the extent that he couldn't see or didn't care about the ramifications - doesn't speak well of him.

[Nami]

Actually, his narcissistic and single minded pursuit of prophecies - to the extent that he couldn't see or didn't care about the ramifications - doesn't speak well of him.

You're assuming that.

Maybe he was planning a coup with Rickard Stark. Maybe he just wanted some lovin'. Maybe he was crazy. Maybe it was a set up how they got Brandon involved and out of his mind. Maybe someone knew Aerys just needed a little push to go completely crazy.

[The guy from the Vale]

Considering how the debate develops right now, I'd like to refer to the appropriate thread on Rhaegar and Rickard.

(yeah, yeah, shameless self-promotion)

[Roxy Carmichael]

You're assuming that.

Maybe he was planning a coup with Rickard Stark. Maybe he just wanted some lovin'. Maybe he was crazy. Maybe it was a set up how they got Brandon involved and out of his mind. Maybe someone knew Aerys just needed a little push to go completely crazy.

I'm not assuming anything. His father was a monster and pretty much universally abhored. Rhaegar was liked and respected. He could have acted to depose his father - he likely would have had support, but he did nothing while Aerys continued to piss people off. He had years to act, but did nothing.

Instead, Rhaegar offended the very people who would have supported him by absconding with Lyanna Stark. He may have been a perfectly nice guy, but he made a string of bad decisions hoping to fulfill his own personal obsessions. If he had cared about averting civil war, he would have followed a very different train of logic.

[Nami]

I'm not assuming anything. His father was a monster and pretty much universally abhored. Rhaegar was liked and respected. He could have acted to depose his father - he likely would have had support, but he did nothing while Aerys continued to piss people off. He had years to act, but did nothing.

Instead, Rhaegar offended the very people who would have supported him by absconding with Lyanna Stark. He may have been a perfectly nice guy, but he made a string of bad decisions hoping to fulfill his own personal obsessions. If he had cared about averting civil war, he would have followed a very different train of logic.

I love how you figured out everything about this character. You should make a thread informing everyone your findings.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

We have very different views on society and character.

Established leaders like the Targaryen Dynasty have done much worse with no significant blowback time and time again. Its simply not a 'rebellion' offence, without a lot of other stuff going on. A noble daughter being broken out of a betrothal is not a casus belli, which means that the base rebellion has less moral (and legal) legitimacy and will have much less support in general. Note how even as it was, the rebels still had internal fighting vs Lords who stayed true to the crown, before they could present a united front.

You are also presuming far more than you complain about by assuming the Vale and the Riverlands would have joined. Jon Arryn only started the rebellion because Aerys called for Robert's and Ned's heads, with no reason. Take that out of the equation and would he have joined in something that he had no business with? Hoster Tully only joined a three-House rebellion with major concessions, why would he join a two House rebellion with nowhere near the same level of casus belli?

My vote for stupidest post of the year!

He didn't start it, and he did fight in it.

Seriously? I have seen worse, and posted worse!

[lareine]

I agree. Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna Stark "caused" Robert's Rebellion the same way that the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand "caused" WWI. A massive shit storm had been brewing for years, and something was going to give... Rhaegar's choices simply got the ball rolling.

Actually, his narcissistic and single minded pursuit of prophecies - to the extent that he couldn't see or didn't care about the ramifications - doesn't speak well of him.

Good/interesting comparison.

[Floris]

Rhaegar was too scared to fight in a war he started

You are not even close.Many people admited that he did mistakes but hi faced them.

[lareine]

You're assuming that.

Maybe he was planning a coup with Rickard Stark. Maybe he just wanted some lovin'. Maybe he was crazy. Maybe it was a set up how they got Brandon involved and out of his mind. Maybe someone knew Aerys just needed a little push to go completely crazy.

Or some combination of all of some or all of the above.

[BlackStark]

I'm not assuming anything. His father was a monster and pretty much universally abhored. Rhaegar was liked and respected. He could have acted to depose his father - he likely would have had support, but he did nothing while Aerys continued to piss people off. He had years to act, but did nothing.

Instead, Rhaegar offended the very people who would have supported him by absconding with Lyanna Stark. He may have been a perfectly nice guy, but he made a string of bad decisions hoping to fulfill his own personal obsessions. If he had cared about averting civil war, he would have followed a very different train of logic.

What makes anyone assume an attempt to overthrow Aerys by Rhaegar would have been successful or enjoyed widespread support? Even after he executed the Lord Paramount of the North and the heir to Winterfell and the heir to the Eyrie and called for the heads of the Stormlord and the new Stark lord, Aerys was able to maintain the allegiance of slightly more than half the kingdom. Prior to the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, Aerys, while paranoid and eccentric, had done nothing to justify his overthrow.

I question whether Rhaegar ever had serious plans for coup because I fail to see where he would have found the support...and especially considering his subsequent actions which you rightly served to piss of the very people he would have needed to be successful.