Lady Brienne of Tarth, Sword of the Evening

[Castellan]

OK, this is me pondering a set of associations so it is a long meandering post which you are welcome to mentally file under crackpot. I have said these things here and there in different threads but I decided to post em here in their own thread.

I don’t think Lightbringer is Dawn. Dawn is a great sword forged from a comet. Lightbringer will be Oathkeeper (formerly Ice) weilded by an undead person like Beric, hence flaming. It is impossible to ignore the fact while Aemon detects Stannis’s sword as a fake because it has no heat, we have seen such a hot fiery sword, weilded by Beric, produced from Thoros’ magic. The secret of Lightbringer has been hiding in plain view in the text. Further, the most interesting sword in the book – Ice/Oathkeeper – will soon be back at the BWB and Thoros’ cave, with Jaime & Brienne.

Why is Ice/Oathkeeper potentially important? Its name refers to the series title; it appears in the first chapter when Eddard uses it to kill the man who saw the Others; it goes on a journey to King’s Landing where it becomes a sword of state, used to kill Eddard himself. It is then transformed into two swords which are fiery – with red ripples in the dark steel – and uncannily perfect. The sword is transforming from Ice to Fire. From a sword of execution to one embued with life by fire magic?

There was a thread a while ago in which somebody argued that Thoros of Myr is presently forging Lightbringer with his fire magic. He first forged Beric, the redhead with a Lightning sigil – this was the forging in fire. He then tried tempering it in water, but it was brittle and cracked – ie Catelyn, of watery symbolism, and her obsession with revenge and her grief and the fact that she was too long dead is her brittleness. Next will be Jaime the lion, and after that, a beloved, who I believe will be Brienne. You can see the undead people as Lightbringer or you can see the sword they eventually carry as Lightbringer, it doesn’t really matter.

Now, lets go off on a meander through literary symbolism. Lightbringer is the Greek and Latin term for Venus, the brightest star in the sky, in her aspect as the morning star. (‘phosphoros’ in Greek and ‘Lucifer’ in Latin - Michael Ferber A Dictionary of Literary Symbols) But Venus is also the evening star, or Evenstar, and of, course, the Goddess of Love and Beauty. To me these associations could equally make a case for Lightbringer being associated with Brienne, as for an association with Arthur Dayne and Dawn.

Brienne is currently riding around Westeros with a fantastic sword and a shield showing a star at evening, granted it’s a comet but the image remains similar. Her father is known as the Evenstar and her home is Evenfall.

It seems quite likely that The Evenstar is a soubriquet for whoever is the current Lord of Tarth, not something Selwyn has earned himself. It may reflect a historical link to Dunk’s shield – maybe an earlier Lord of Tarth used it as his shield (The Tarth sigil proper is completely different.) This means that Brienne will be the Evenstar when Selwyn dies, and he could have already died when Tarth was invaded.

Brienne is also constantly emphasised as a sort of antithetical or ironic Venus – Brienne the Beauty. Yet, she has become Jaime’s love.

Now I cannot quite grasp whether Lightbringer in Greek refers to the fact that it is bright or to the fact that it heralds Dawn, the light. If anyone knows, please say. And Homer apparently once calls the morning star Dawnbringer (Heosphoros) and once ‘that brightest star, which, beyond others, comes with the announcement of the young Dawn goddess’. (Ferber) But although it heralds Dawn, it is not Dawn itself, Dawn is another entity, and another goddess.

I grant, though, it would be reasonable to link Lightbringer to Dawn on these grounds. I prefer to link it to Brienne and think that Brienne will be the complement to Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, by being Sword of the Evening.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Wow,this is really good. Thoros tempering Lightbringer has some great parallels, and Brienne being a foil to the Daynes works well too.

[Jon of the Dead]

I've always been fairly confident that Oathkeeper/Ice was Lightbringer, especially because Mott said the sword "behaved" bizarrely when he melted it and reformed it (did that really happen or did I dream it? I honestly don't remember)

Anyway, yeah, my theory was that that Oathkeeper was Lightbringer, Brienne was AA, and then Jaime was the lion, but your theory is far better, especially with the parts of Beric (fire) and Cat (water), and yes, now Jaime - awesome catch

But who do you think is AA in this scenario? Is it Brienne? Because according to the Ghost of High Heart, AA will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, so that excludes Jaime and Brienne

But I'm sure something related to AA will happen in that storyline, as you said, all the elements are in place, just AA is missing, I think

As an interesting side note, if Ice is Lightbringer, then Brienne has only one half. The other half is Widow's Wail, Tommen's sword

Anyway, excellent theory OP :cheers:

[Jrogo]

I think that's a very cool theory!

[yolkboy]

I don’t think Lightbringer is Dawn. Dawn is a great sword forged from a comet. Lightbringer will be Oathkeeper (formerly Ice) weilded by an undead person like Beric, hence flaming. It is impossible to ignore the fact while Aemon detects Stannis’s sword as a fake because it has no heat, we have seen such a hot fiery sword, weilded by Beric, produced from Thoros’ magic.

Any sword is hot when you put fire on it. Didn't Stannis burn his hand when his was fiery in aCoK? Thoros has been buring swords for a long time, but, like Stannis' (before Mel glamoured it), the sword ruined , so the point is we're looking for a blade that can stand the heat. Your idea would make Valyrian steel a substance that doesnt spoil when set aflame. There's no precedent, but given a choice between a VS sword and one made from a fallen star, my guess is the latter would be tolerant to that kind of heat and not the former.

[Castellan]

Jon of the Dead, I suppose Brienne could end up handing the Sword to someone who is magic enough to make it flame without being undead (Dany springs to mind). I am more following some clues that are there than trying for a seamless theory.

That other sword does nag at me though, even if these ideas are a wash out, that's still an interesting sword. The only clue about who will use it is it was lighter, made for a youth.

[Castellan]

Any sword is hot when you put fire on it. Didn't Stannis burn his hand when his was fiery in aCoK? Thoros has been buring swords for a long time, but, like Stannis' (before Mel glamoured it), the sword ruined , so the point is we're looking for a blade that can stand the heat. Your idea would make Valyrian steel a substance that doesnt spoil when set aflame. There's no precedent, but given a choice between a VS sword and one made from a fallen star, my guess is the latter would be tolerant to that kind of heat and not the former.

Well it's a key point in the story that Aemon suspects Stannis's sword because it gives no heat. Which means that Aemon must have knowledge that it should be hot.

Clearly Thoros used to use a fake sword with the same kinds of tricks Mel uses, but he states he was then shocked when he produced real magic, saving Beric, the flaming sword is now the real deal.

[Arya kiddin']

<snip>

Excellent post Castellan. This is the best Brienne is AAR theories there are. Actually I have myself convinced that Jon is AAR, but this will make me re-think.

[WeaselPie]

I'm also convinced that Ice (hopefully reforged entire) will be Lightbringer, and that Gendry will play a part, being the most visible and important smith in the series. But I never actually associated Thoros into the mix... that is excellent, because magic is required for the forging.

As for Brienne being "Sword of the Evening", I admit I like the idea but never thought about it. It does bring a nice balance to the Sword of the Morning, who I think we will see again along with Dawn.

I do like your version of the prophecy as a series of "undead" because that ties nicely into the "reborn" part of the prophecy.

[HoboJed]

I believe the symbolism here goes to many levels.

Ice -> frozen water

Oathkeeper/Widow's Wail being laced with blood red colouring, and covered in lion symbology -> lion's blood

Widow's Wail -> Death of spouse -> Nissa Nissa

I'm not sure I would consider Catelyn to be the water though. To me, the more likely scenario is that she is Nissa Nissa (killed by her husband's sword). She is currently called Lady Stoneheart, so if Lightbringer is created by plunging Oathkeeper through her heart, then that could be said to be waking dragons from stone (if you think dragons could be a metaphor for a flaming sword).

Any sword is hot when you put fire on it. Didn't Stannis burn his hand when his was fiery in aCoK?

He didn't burn his hand, but he did wear very thick gloves.

I've always been fairly confident that Oathkeeper/Ice was Lightbringer, especially because Mott said the sword "behaved" bizarrely when he melted it and reformed it (did that really happen or did I dream it? I honestly don't remember)

Specifically, Mott said that it behaved strangely when he tried to colour it. I think this is a big hint, as Mott is supposedly both a master of working Valyrian Steel and of colouring metals.

[Atropis the Elf]

(‘phosphoros’ in Greek and ‘Lucifer’ in Latin - Michael Ferber A Dictionary of Literary Symbols)

First of all, excellent theory, Castellan. I don't know if this helps but 'phosphoros' in Greek is a noun, the verb of which means shining bright.

And Homer apparently once calls the morning star Dawnbringer (Heosphoros) : While I'm not a fan of Homer, Heosphoros with phosphoros have no parallel meaning.

[FNF]

As an interesting side note, if Ice is Lightbringer, then Brienne has only one half. The other half is Widow's Wail, Tommen's sword

I think this will be a plot point later in the series when it comes to reforging Ice. After all, it is the Starks' ancestral sword.

[J. Stargaryen]

I believe the symbolism here goes to many levels.

Ice -> frozen water

Oathkeeper/Widow's Wail being laced with blood red colouring, and covered in lion symbology -> lion's blood

Widow's Wail -> Death of spouse -> Nissa Nissa

I'm not sure I would consider Catelyn to be the water though. To me, the more likely scenario is that she is Nissa Nissa (killed by her husband's sword). She is currently called Lady Stoneheart, so if Lightbringer is created by plunging Oathkeeper through her heart, then that could be said to be waking dragons from stone (if you think dragons could be a metaphor for a flaming sword).

He didn't burn his hand, but he did wear very thick gloves.

Specifically, Mott said that it behaved strangely when he tried to colour it. I think this is a big hint, as Mott is supposedly both a master of working Valyrian Steel and of colouring metals.

Not bad. :)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I've always been fairly confident that Oathkeeper/Ice was Lightbringer

I think that chronologically is imposible Ice to be LB.

[FNF]

I think that chronologically is imposible Ice to be LB.

I don't think so. We don't actually know when it was originally forged do we? I mean, Mormont's sword was purchased before the Landing but he don't actually know when that was forged.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think so. We don't actually know when it was originally forged do we? I mean, Mormont's sword was purchased before the Landing but he don't actually know when that was forged.

We know that AA lived 10000-8000 years ago. Valyrian freehold was founded 5000 years ago, so there is a gap of 5000-3000 years. As I said impossible.

[Lady Valicious]

Nice theory, certain aspects definitely make sense. I think Ice will become the new LB once it's reforged, not the historical LB. Brienne and Jaime might become pivotal in having this happen. Like many I don't think that Tommen will stay alive much longer, I could see the two swords becoming one again. It will be a formidable sword that Brienne will hand to AAR for the final battle.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think that chronologically is imposible Ice to be LB.

I think it's important to distinguish between the original Lightbringer, if there in fact was one, and a potential current version.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think it's important to distinguish between the original Lightbringer, if there in fact was one, and a potential current version.

True. I meant that the Ice2.0 couldn't be the original LB because of the chronology. Now, if the original Ice was the original LB or the Ice2.0 is AAR's LB it's something else.

[Arya kiddin']

I think that chronologically is imposible Ice to be LB.

I think what Jon means is (LOL you're both Jon a male and a female, a supporter and an usurper, a fan and an anti, ice and fire, yada yada.... :P) that Ice is LB for Battle of the Dawn 2.0. I don't think we have any reference to AA's original Lightbringer.