Heresy 81

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Interesting stuff indeed and I'm looking forward to the next episode. The only comment I'd make at this stage is that I don't see any evidence that Gilly isn't her name. While I was myself brought up to believe in the power of names and of knowing names, in this case apart from Gilly we have them variously talk about Nella, Ferny and Dyah. These may be nicknames, but they are still spoken.

Yeah - I'm not pushing the "true name" issue. But in the context of everything else I'm reading, it struck me as interesting that she doesn't actually ever say "my name is..." Mostly it was just another minor observation that piqued my interest and led me to look more closely at her role.

Glad you're still interested. More to come...

.

[Toccs]

Surely Richard knew that there was at least a small chance that neither He nor Brandon would ever see Winterfell again (given all the conspiracies, the mental state of the Mad King, and his paranoia regarding the Major Houses forming alliances). I'm inclined to believe that Richard entrusted all (100%) of the ancient Stark Secrets (the Secrets regarding Winter, 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell', the purpose of the tunnel to the Black Gate, etc, etc…) with Benjin.

I think Benjin took these secrets seriously & of course passed the secrets along to Ned. However, given that Ned left Winterfell when he was but 8 years old, he didn't get to spend enough time with Richard to learn that the secrets are more than just fairy tales. Therefore Ned has dismissed much of the Stark Lore as mere superstition, forgotten much, & was a poor steward of any of the secrets that he did believe.

Personally, I believe that Benjin lives, & as previously stated, I think he knows the Stark Secrets - which probably has something to do with his disappearance.

I'm not sure I agree with the part about Benjen being "entrusted" with all the secrets, but I definitely agree with overall message that Benjen knows much more about the Stark secrets then Ned ever did.

In many ways Ned is a southern in a foreign court. I'm not 100% on the timelines but I think he went to the Vale when he was 8 and didn't return to Winterfell (to live there) until the Rebellion when he was around 22. That's longer then Theon was away and we've seen that he is no longer fully Ironborn. Winterfell was never home for Ned and it was never meant to be. Whereas Benjen was living in Winterfell his entire life being raised by Rickard

We don't even know how secret the Stark Secrets were anyway, I'm betting not at all. It was probably common knowledge for every Stark. Going further, that's probably one of the spoilery things about She Wolves of Winterfell that caused it to be delayed, because Stark characters in Winterfell talk about stuff that we're not supposed to know yet. T

he only reason that all of Ned's kids don't know it all by heart and take it as fact is because Ned didn't believe and thus didn't teach them.

I also think that we will see Benjen alive and in the flesh again. Although just what side he will be on . . . .

[Yield.]

If we recall, Varamyr took Haggon's Beast after Haggon's true death. This means that faint piece of Haggon is inside of Varamyr's head… We know this because at one point Varamyr hears the word 'Abomination' and he asks was "was that me? Thistle?, or was that Haggon? [meaning which one of the voices in my head said that?] Haggon has lived a 2nd life, and you would think that he would know the rules… However, being fearful of his gift, he might not have even tried to leave his 2nd-life-host, I believe his 2nd life was very brief anyway...

Still, that fact that a piece of Haggon (who like Varamyr was in his 2nd Life) ended up inside of Varamyr, means that there is definitely prescidence for Varamyr to somehow end up in Jon's head...

In the scene where Varamyr recalls how he took Haggon's beast he clearly states 'no second life for you old man' before he boots him out so straight from Varamyr's own memory do we have him confirming that yes in fact it's over for the skinchanger.

Now thinking like you say in terms of a writer, and I agree the prologue is very long and detailed but this might be a long way for a short cut. Jon does have a lot to learn about skinchanging and so do the other Starks, but where to fit it into the story that won't break the flow of their current arcs? Well, take a known skinchanger and plug it in there. Also answer questions that readers have and provide clues to things that will happen later in the book(s).

Say Jon does come back and Borraq becomes his mentor, now we don't need to spend a chapter learning these things and the story will move on. He can encounter One Eye and learn Varamyr's last lesson and about how Thistle could see him in the wolf after death and we as the audience would understand too.

[LynnS]

I'm not sure I agree with the part about Benjen being "entrusted" with all the secrets, but I definitely agree with overall message that Benjen knows much more about the Stark secrets then Ned ever did.

In many ways Ned is a southern in a foreign court. I'm not 100% on the timelines but I think he went to the Vale when he was 8 and didn't return to Winterfell (to live there) until the Rebellion when he was around 22. That's longer then Theon was away and we've seen that he is no longer fully Ironborn. Winterfell was never home for Ned and it was never meant to be. Whereas Benjen was living in Winterfell his entire life being raised by Rickard

We don't even know how secret the Stark Secrets were anyway, I'm betting not at all. It was probably common knowledge for every Stark. Going further, that's probably one of the spoilery things about She Wolves of Winterfell that caused it to be delayed, because Stark characters in Winterfell talk about stuff that we're not supposed to know yet. T

he only reason that all of Ned's kids don't know it all by heart and take it as fact is because Ned didn't believe and thus didn't teach them.

I also think that we will see Benjen alive and in the flesh again. Although just what side he will be on . . . .

I'm thinking that the Stark Maesters were as much keepers of the Stark secrets as the Starks. I think Ned was instructed by Luwin on the true meaning of "winter is coming" and what that means for the Starks. But I don't think he wanted to believe it. Before he leaves for the south; he tells Luwin to make sure that Rob knows what he must know; not that he must know how to govern Winterfell in Ned's place.

[LynnS]

Yeah - I'm not pushing the "true name" issue. But in the context of everything else I'm reading, it struck me as interesting that she doesn't actually ever say "my name is..." Mostly it was just another minor observation that piqued my interest and led me to look more closely at her role.

Glad you're still interested. More to come...

.

I'm enjoying this post as well. Waiting to read more..... :cheers:

[Yield.]

I'm enjoying this post as well. Waiting to read more..... :cheers:

Same here.

[Yield.]

GILLY POST -- PART 2

A ghillie-weetfit, a term now obsolete (a translation of 'gille-caisfliuch', from the Gaelic cos foot/leg and fliuch wet), was the ghillie whose duty it was to carry his master over streams. It became a term of contempt among the Lowlanders for the 'tail' (as his attendants were called) of a Highland chief.

As a Lowland Scot I have to say it must be obsolete because I have never heard the term 'weetfit' and my great uncle (granddad's brother) was a gameskeeper. Mind you we didn't spend a lot of time with the old souse.

[Toccs]

Still, that fact that a piece of Haggon (who like Varamyr was in his 2nd Life) ended up inside of Varamyr, means that there is definitely prescidence for Varamyr to somehow end up in Jon's head...

In the scene where Varamyr recalls how he took Haggon's beast he clearly states 'no second life for you old man' before he boots him out so straight from Varamyr's own memory do we have him confirming that yes in fact it's over for the skinchanger.

"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well.

Varamyr could feel Orell and he was influenced by him in the same way that all skinchangers get influenced by their animals. The point is that the dead skinchanger is now for all intents and purposes on the same level as the beast, he can't jump out and he can't fight back he has become one of Varamyr's thralls.

So Varamyr could end up in Jon's head, but only if Jon tried to warg into One Eye.

[LynnS]

"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well.

Varamyr could feel Orell and he was influenced by him in the same way that all skinchangers get influenced by their animals. The point is that the dead skinchanger is now for all intents and purposes on the same level as the beast, he can't jump out and he can't fight back he has become one of Varamyr's thralls.

So Varamyr could end up in Jon's head, but only if Jon tried to warg into One Eye.

What if Varamyr was able to move from One-Eye to Ghost through physical contact?

This goes back to something that I noticed about Quaithe and Dany. Quaithe first appears in person. She touches Dany on the wrist at some point and Dany notices a tingling sensation. Quaithe is then able to contact her through other means; speak directly to her without being physically present.

There has been discussion about the direwolves intitiating contact and that Ghost is different. Ghost also seems to initiate contact through touch. He brushes up against Jon and Jon is immediately aware of Ghosts sensory experiences. As much as I can recall there are only three others who have been allowed to touch Ghost: Mel, Val and Tyrion. We don't know what Mel or Val experienced but Tyrion gets the sensation that he is being watched by the moon travelling down the Sorrows. Bran has also touched Jon when Ghost takes him to the dragonglass cache. Mel seems to know more about Ygritte than you would expect.

I don't think it's impossible that Varamyr/One Eye could end up in physical combat with Ghost where Varamyr makes the transition from one wolf to the other since wolves are easy for him. But is it likely as storytelling goes? It seems that each prologue introduces a second form of life and/or someone always dies. But it does seem to me that Varamyr knows that his fate is to become One Eye and nothing more.

I'll go to some crackpottery here concerning Dany. Dany must ride three mounts. I presume that to mean Silver, Drogon and one other. What if this is Jon through Ghost There is a prophecy of a hero rising from the sea. I always thought this was literally the sea until Jon's vision of the forest as the sea.

Dany also has a dream of someone entering her who is cold as ice. There is a sexual connotation but could it be Jon giving his soul to Dany? Is Jon the sacrifice for love?

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure I agree with the part about Benjen being "entrusted" with all the secrets, but I definitely agree with overall message that Benjen knows much more about the Stark secrets then Ned ever did.

In many ways Ned is a southern in a foreign court. I'm not 100% on the timelines but I think he went to the Vale when he was 8 and didn't return to Winterfell (to live there) until the Rebellion when he was around 22. That's longer then Theon was away and we've seen that he is no longer fully Ironborn. Winterfell was never home for Ned and it was never meant to be. Whereas Benjen was living in Winterfell his entire life being raised by Rickard

We don't even know how secret the Stark Secrets were anyway, I'm betting not at all. It was probably common knowledge for every Stark. Going further, that's probably one of the spoilery things about She Wolves of Winterfell that caused it to be delayed, because Stark characters in Winterfell talk about stuff that we're not supposed to know yet. T

he only reason that all of Ned's kids don't know it all by heart and take it as fact is because Ned didn't believe and thus didn't teach them.

I also think that we will see Benjen alive and in the flesh again. Although just what side he will be on . . . .

Yes, I think that family secrets is probably the wrong term, at least insofar as Ned like every other Starkling will have grown up with the stories, told by Old Nan and no doubt his father as well. The problem being that at some point, when old enough he would have been told which ones were real and why the stories were told. Its that knowledge which Ned lacks. At one point Bran mentions something, I think about the Children, and Ned chides him that he's been listening to Old Nan again. No doubt he would say that, but I think what's missing is that nobody ever told him that it was true.

[Black Crow]

In the scene where Varamyr recalls how he took Haggon's beast he clearly states 'no second life for you old man' before he boots him out so straight from Varamyr's own memory do we have him confirming that yes in fact it's over for the skinchanger.

Now thinking like you say in terms of a writer, and I agree the prologue is very long and detailed but this might be a long way for a short cut. Jon does have a lot to learn about skinchanging and so do the other Starks, but where to fit it into the story that won't break the flow of their current arcs? Well, take a known skinchanger and plug it in there. Also answer questions that readers have and provide clues to things that will happen later in the book(s).

Say Jon does come back and Borraq becomes his mentor, now we don't need to spend a chapter learning these things and the story will move on. He can encounter One Eye and learn Varamyr's last lesson and about how Thistle could see him in the wolf after death and we as the audience would understand too.

:agree: and would say that this is exactly the purpose of this and the other prologues.

[Forlorn Horpe]

"Hair-splitting" is a phrase often used to express a value judgement. But it may simply be a descriptive term... and each may decide for herself whether she finds it valuable, or fun.

You're right, and I did not mean to demean the efforts of those who have discovered new insights through their attention to detail.

It's not something we never discussed. As you can see in previous threads, many people indeed believe there's no dualism but a complex polichotomy of powers... every with unique reasons and paths.

You've managed to say, in one succinct sentence, what I struggled to in multiple verbose posts. I can see the heretics have been very diligent in leaving no stone unturned, while I'm still playing catch up!

[Black Crow]

You've managed to say, in one succinct sentence, what I struggled to in multiple verbose posts. I can see the heretics have been very diligent in leaving no stone unturned, while I'm still playing catch up!

It is of course something we've been discussing back and forth for a long time. I would however, perhaps a little contrarily, say that although we generally reject the simplistic notion of this whole thing coming down to a battle between R'hllor and the Great Other (why should we reject all gods but Mel's?) this is at the end of the day the Song of Ice and Fire.

Therefore although we see evidence of various parties being involved; the Drowned God, the Storm God and so on and so forth and certainly not forgetting the Morrigan, I would myself say that ultimately all of these parties are or will turn out to be aligned with either Ice or Fire, either through old alliances remembered or new opportunities realised.

[Urrax]

It is of course something we've been discussing back and forth for a long time. I would however, perhaps a little contrarily, say that although we generally reject the simplistic notion of this whole thing coming down to a battle between R'hllor and the Great Other (why should we reject all gods but Mel's?) this is at the end of the day the Song of Ice and Fire.

Therefore although we see evidence of various parties being involved; the Drowned God, the Storm God and so on and so forth and certainly not forgetting the Morrigan, I would myself say that ultimately all of these parties are or will turn out to be aligned with either Ice or Fire, either through old alliances remembered or new opportunities realised.

I don't think there is/are a Drowned God, a Storm God, a Seven, and so on and so forth. I think there is magic and there are people, maybe I should say entities, who can bend this magic or aspects thereof to their wills in sundry respects. I think the Drowned God,the Storm God, the Seven, and so on and so forth are constructs people - including some people who can work magic - have made to try to explain the world they live in. And yes, these constructs may well prove to be aligned with the Ice or the Fire aspect of the world.

[Urrax]

Re gillyflowers:

http://www.bartleby.com/246/741.html

[wolfmaid7]

Let's say that Haggon was correct & you are 'stuck' inside of one animal during your 2nd life… The Author could always have a wild card up his sleeve… I don't claim to know how Varamyr get's into Jon's head, only that he gets there…

I agree, it is interesting, and would help turn Jon into the Bad-Guy antagonists that I want him to be...

Haggon's Reliability:

During the course of the Prologue, Varamyr mentioned a number of things that Haggon had presented as fact regarding Warging / Skinchanging. Then Later in the Prolgue Haggon was proven wrong by Varamyr's actions or by the behavior of other Wargs / Skinchangers and what not. Haggon was "afraid to his gift" he was fearful to explore it's full potential, and seems to me to be a bit superstitious in much of the information he gave Varamyr.

About the CotF inside of ravens… Does it ever say that the CotF are trapped inside of a single host for the duration of their 2nd life?

--

If we recall, Varamyr took Haggon's Beast after Haggon's true death. This means that faint piece of Haggon is inside of Varamyr's head… We know this because at one point Varamyr hears the word 'Abomination' and he asks was "was that me? Thistle?, or was that Haggon? [meaning which one of the voices in my head said that?] Haggon has lived a 2nd life, and you would think that he would know the rules… However, being fearful of his gift, he might not have even tried to leave his 2nd-life-host, I believe his 2nd life was very brief anyway...

Still, that fact that a piece of Haggon (who like Varamyr was in his 2nd Life) ended up inside of Varamyr, means that there is definitely prescidence for Varamyr to somehow end up in Jon's head...

First lets tackle the condition of V.Sixskins,it is safe to say he didn't nessaccarily desire Ghost,but a DW at that time because that would be a badass second life.So where is V.Sixskins?

The eyes of the three wolves glowed yellow. The direwolf swung his head from side to side,nostrils flaring, then bared his fangs in a snarl. The younger male backed away. The direwolf could smell the fear in him. Tail, he knew. But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size.Their eyes met.

Warg!

Then the two rushed together, wolf and direwolf, and there was no more time for thought. The world shrank down to tooth and claw, snow flying as they rolled and spun and tore at one another, the other wolves snarling and snapping around them. His jaws closed on matted fur slick with hoarfrost, on a limb thin as a dry stick, but the one-eyed wolf clawed at his belly and tore himself free, rolled, lunged for him. Yellow fangs snapped closed on his throat, but he shook off his old grey cousin as he would a rat, then charged after him, knocked him down. Rolling, ripping, kicking, they fought until the both of them were ragged and fresh blood dappled the snows around them. But finally the old one-eyed wolf lay down and showed his belly. The direwolf snapped at him twice more, sniffed at his butt, then lifted a

leg over him.

So it seems that V.Sixskins in one eye escaped Thistle and his own body along with the other Wights,but he is in his second life with One Eye.Bran in Summer Kicked his ass,so the only DW he is in contact with is Bran. Meaning Bran is most likely to wear him and come in contact with his mind.But it can't work the other way V.Six skins cannot Jump into Summer and Kick Bran out.At this point seeing as he's a subservient in a pack headed by a DW he aint doing nothing but showing his belly.

Also,and you stated that if Haggon is right about this,but as i stated in the earlier reply to it is not a law or rule of Haggon.

“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her

remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow.

A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.ADWD Bran”

I'll find the other text but that is all V.Sixskins will be should any other Skinchanger should take one eye.Just like Orell was a fading shadow.

"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well.

Varamyr could feel Orell and he was influenced by him in the same way that all skinchangers get influenced by their animals. The point is that the dead skinchanger is now for all intents and purposes on the same level as the beast, he can't jump out and he can't fight back he has become one of Varamyr's thralls.

So Varamyr could end up in Jon's head, but only if Jon tried to warg into One Eye.

I agree :agree:

[Black Crow]

Re gillyflowers:

http://www.bartleby.com/246/741.html

Now there's a nice one - especially that bit about overthrowing the knight with a flaming heart on his breast

[Amoracchius]

Surely Richard knew that there was at least a small chance that neither He nor Brandon would ever see Winterfell again (given all the conspiracies, the mental state of the Mad King, and his paranoia regarding the Major Houses forming alliances). I'm inclined to believe that Richard entrusted all (100%) of the ancient Stark Secrets (the Secrets regarding Winter, 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell', the purpose of the tunnel to the Black Gate, etc, etc…) with Benjin.

I think Benjin took these secrets seriously & of course passed the secrets along to Ned. However, given that Ned left Winterfell when he was but 8 years old, he didn't get to spend enough time with Richard to learn that the secrets are more than just fairy tales. Therefore Ned has dismissed much of the Stark Lore as mere superstition, forgotten much, & was a poor steward of any of the secrets that he did believe.

Personally, I believe that Benjin lives, & as previously stated, I think he knows the Stark Secrets - which probably has something to do with his disappearance.

I'm not convinced that there are "Stark Secrets," but assuming there are for a moment, if Benjen knew all the Stark Secrets and Ned didn't, why didn't Benjen sit his big brother down at the end of Robert's Rebellion and fill him in? If you're saying that Benjen had this knowledge and Ned died without it, there's a pretty big hole in the story that needs explanation.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Yes, I think that family secrets is probably the wrong term, at least insofar as Ned like every other Starkling will have grown up with the stories, told by Old Nan and no doubt his father as well. The problem being that at some point, when old enough he would have been told which ones were real and why the stories were told. Its that knowledge which Ned lacks. At one point Bran mentions something, I think about the Children, and Ned chides him that he's been listening to Old Nan again. No doubt he would say that, but I think what's missing is that nobody ever told him that it was true.

I don't think Ned lacked the knowledge, I think it was told to him but he chose to not believe. Old Nan, by her own, know a lot of things... I think she was the one charged to teach the young Starks of their duties... but Ned, lacking his faith, never pointed a successor to Old Nan...

Old Nan knew too much to be just "stories" and wasn't even named... Nobody remembers when she arrived at Winterfell.

Once I played with the fact she should be one kind of oracle, without the maid part.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

GILLY POST - PART 3

We’ve looked at some interesting background material related to the name “Gilly” – and (I think) we’ve established that Martin is well aware of this material. It certainly looks as if Martin actually used this stuff in his construction of Gilly’s character.

But is that it? Do we stop at Ghillie Dhu, and accept Gilly as a female rendition of this relatively minor character in faerie lore? I must admit that I was not satisfied… I wanted there to be more to it. And certain aspects of Gilly’s scenes in the text - her participation in the “triple goddess” presentation at the end of ASOS Chapter 33, for instance – and some details in the background material - the “heavenly/divine queen” allusions, in particular – suggested more might be there.

So I kept looking.

There was definitely some tantalizing material out there related to the Morrigan and other divine hags of Celtic and Germanic myth. The Cailleach Bheur, in particular, is an ancient, powerful and intriguing figure. She seems to be the primary divine hag of Irish and Scottish mythology. Her name derives from the Old Irish caillech, meaning “veiled one” and, among other things, she was considered to have been the “Queen of Winter.”

Related to the word cailleach is the Gaelic word caileag… meaning “girl,” young woman,” or “young maid servant.” I don’t speak Gaelic myself, so wasn’t sure about pronunciation - but it occurred to me that, spoken, “caileag” might sound a lot like “Gilly.”

Still, I was having trouble reconciling Gilly’s youth and apparent naïveté with the typical image of the divine hag – who is generally described as frightful in appearance. And I didn’t want to overplay the connection…

But then I was reading a recent discussion on Heresy (Heresy 80) in which LynnS and Mother of Mountains posted thoughts about the Greek goddess Persephone, and revisited the English folk tradition of John Barleycorn – the corn king sacrifice.

And suddenly, a string of small observations and random thoughts began to fall into place:

(1) Gilly’s “flight” south… well, it sort of looks like a migration for the winter. (“Somewhere warm” – the three wives said in unison);

(2) like John Barleycorn, the Cailleach also figures into an agricultural tradition, in which farmers make “corn dollies” from the last sheaf of the grain harvest crop;

(3) the Old English word for barley, bære, looks an awful lot like Bheur – as in Cailleach Bheur. And in fact, the goddess is sometimes identified as the Cailleach Beare, which is even more similar; and

(4) Craster’s feast, after which “the world went mad,” looks like an inverted harvest festival… where all the food is missing.

So I went back to Craster’s table. And do you know what I found? Two things I hadn’t seen before. First, I discovered the fate of Craster’s boys. And second, I found my clue to connect Gilly with the Morrigen...

Craster’s Feast / Craster’s Feed

When Craster learned that his unwanted guests would be departing on the morrow, the wildling became almost amiable, or as close to amiable as Craster ever got. "Past time," he said, "you don't belong here, I told you that. All the same, see you off proper, with a feast. Well, a feed. My wives can roast them horses you slaughtered, and find some beer and bread." He smiled his brown smile. "Nothing better than beer and horsemeat. If you can't ride 'em, eat 'em, that's what I say."

(I now find the above quote both much funnier – and much creepier – in light of the thoughts outlined below.)

The dialogue at Craster’s table quickly devolves into conflict, death, and a “world gone mad.” But it begins as a litany of farm-raised foods and harvest crops; foods that are remarkable for their absence. Craster has not produced any of them for his guests. Resentfully, seated at his table, the brothers of the Night’s Watch set about enumerating everything they most want from their host; and the objects of their desire are precisely those things that have been withheld from them.

The brothers want food. And, as we soon find out, they have an appetite for Craster’s children.

There was bread… but only two loaves. When Ulmer asked for more, the woman only shook her head. That was when the trouble started.

“Two loaves?" Clubfoot Karl complained from down the bench. "How stupid are you women? We need more bread than this!"

…Craster narrowed his eyes. "I gave you crows enough. I got me women to feed."

Dirk speared a chunk of horsemeat. "Aye. So you admit you got a secret larder. How else to make it through a winter?"

"I'm a godly man . . ." Craster started.

"You're a niggardly man," said Karl, "and a liar."

"Hams," Garth of Oldtown said, in a reverent voice. "There were pigs, last time we come. I bet he's got hams hid someplace. Smoked and salted hams, and bacon too."

"Sausage," said Dirk. "Them long black ones, they're like rocks, they keep for years. I bet he's got a hundred hanging in some cellar."

"Oats," suggested Ollo Lophand. "Corn. Barley."

"Corn," said Mormont's raven, with a flap of the wings. "Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn."

"Enough," said Lord Commander Mormont over the bird's raucous calls. "Be quiet, all of you. This is folly."

"Apples," said Garth of Greenaway. "Barrels and barrels of crisp autumn apples. There are apple trees out there, I saw 'em."

"Dried berries. Cabbages. Pine nuts."

"Corn. Corn. Corn."

"Salt mutton. There's a sheepfold. He's got casks and casks of mutton laid by, you know he does…”

-- ASOS, Chapter 33

Now, all of this eventually leads me to a more satisfying and complete identification of Gilly. But I'm going to pause here along the way, because we’ve also stumbled upon the horrible, fantastic solution to Martin’s riddle of the "red herring" and the fate of Craster’s sons. I’ve made reference to it already. But now humor me as I make a first attempt at spelling it out with reference to text…

[by the way... tell me if you think I should add spoiler code… I don’t think there are that many people outside this thread who even see the riddle. So I’m just layin’ it out there… ]

Here’s the way I read it now: Craster insists he’s “a godly man.” Gilly tells us he “gives the boys to the gods.” Jon and Sam remain fixated on the absence of sons and sheep at Craster’s Keep. Many of us, as readers, have speculated that these sacrifices ultimately become the Others/White Walkers. But in the end, “the blackest crows” are the ones who (unwittingly) figure everything out. The brothers' appetites will not be satisfied at the table, but in the cellar and loft - after they have murdered both their host and their Lord Commander. And Craster’s words to Mormont earlier that day are telling… this is not a feast, but a feed: an orgy of lust and gluttony loaded with grotesque symbolic meaning. The men of the Night's Watch start by naming Craster’s sons in the litany of dishes missing from the table. Then, in a “world gone mad,” all morality abandoned, the men proceed to root the boys out and gorge on them in Craster's cellar.

Craster’s sons and his “secret larder” prove to be one and the same. Like the famous kippers, these boys are “smoked and salted,” made “hams, and bacon” and “sausage.” They are Craster’s “oats,” reaped as they were sown. They are his “barley” and his “corn, corn, corn” they are even his “thin yellow beer.” They are heads of “cabbage,” and dried berries (buried) in his cellar. Believe it or not, they are even "pine nuts" (ask Attis about death by self-castration).

And perhaps most significantly for the Gilly… they are “crisp autumn apples.”

Gilly’s Fruit

Somehow in my initial word studies into meanings and backgrounds, I managed to ignore a key definition. But this litany of foods at Craster’s table gave me new material and, while thinking it over, I decided to revisit Exhibit A: I googled “gillyflower” all over again. And this time, I noticed something in the Wiktionary definition that I hadn’t seen on Wikipedia.

Noun

gillyflower (plural gillyflowers)

1. clove pink

2. Any clove-scented flower.

3. A variety of apple.

4. (heraldry) A stylized representation of a carnation blossom, usually red, and shown with or without a slip and leaves.

A variety of apple. Wow, there it is.

http://bighorsecreekfarm.com/crow-egg/

BLACK GILLIFLOWER (CROW'S EGG)

There is much confusion over the identification of Crow Egg. The old southern classic, Crow’s Egg (also know as Black Gilliflower, Raven’s Egg or Black Annie) is distinctly different in appearance and flavor from the northern Crow Egg. Southern Crow’s Egg is a dark red, very conical-shaped apple of high quality and is identical to the variety Black Gilliflower. The northern Crow Egg is a medium size apple, somewhat flattened in appearance with yellow skin flushed with red shading. The Worcester County Horticultural Society in Massachusetts has sold this variety for many years. It makes an outstanding fresh eating apple. Ripens September to early October.

The Black Gilliflower. The Crow's Egg (or Raven's Egg). Black Annie (another name for the Morrigan).

How 'bout them Apples?

[END PART 3]