The Snowfyre Chorus

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  1. Maybe Stannis pulled HER out of a hat.
  2. But that would mean she's talking to the... "neverborn?"
  3. That was the main one I had in mind, as well.
  4. Good point. That one too. The man is rather oblivious. Nice pivot. And interesting questions. Gonna have to think that over some. Pale milkglass blade, alive with light... blue eyes of death... if I didn't know we were talking about Ned's dream, those images would take me straight back to AGOT prologue. Or Sam's encounter with the Other in ASOS. Though there are other lighted dream-swords in these books, too...
  5. Nah. I think the Bobert is pretty blind when it comes to sexual mores, or varying shades of male sexuality. There's no third person perspective-taking going on there. Thus he asks no questions when Ned claims a bastard. He seems not to recognize Loras Tyrell's interest in his own brother. And he imagines Rhaegar raping a woman "hundreds of times." He's got no clue.
  6. Might be interesting to consider the three instances where Martin uses the phrase "dreamed an old dream." Not sure there's anything in common between them, necessarily. But there might be. Actually, dreams in general might provide better material across these books. I don't know.
  7. Well, it first exists in Robert's imagination: Best I can tell, this is where the idea of R+L sexual contact originally comes from in the text... before we readers adopt it, build on it, and re-characterize the relationship to our satisfaction. The motive, clearly, was lust. The opportunity was... erm, sustained. Longer than a day or two, one would presume. At least, according to Robert Baratheon. Fourteen years later. History is written by the victors, etc.
  8. Lol. Nope, not really.
  9. Hm. Yes, I'd be interested to read that. And maybe I already have... but if so, I just don't remember doing so. Of course, it's possible that we're chasing our tail a bit here Feather. Because I once wrote something up myself - and I may have shared it with you at some point along the way. It wasn't very polished. But the Littlefinger and Lord Tywin theories were two that I always considered particularly promising, as far as having enough potentially symbolic imagery and descriptive hooks to build on... somewhat in the style of RLJ.
  10. Fair enough. Also worth noting that Ned grew up in the Vale. (Along with Robert.) So it's not like he doesn't know how the new gods handle things south of the Neck. Well... here I might split with you a bit. It's not clear to me that this particular meeting was either expected or pre-arranged. If Ned thought there might be a trial of seven, he'd have expected seven opponents. What he gets instead, is three. Extraordinary though they are. Furthermore, he finds them in Dos Gatos out in the middle of nowhere. As I read the dream dialogue, it's the unexpectedness of the location that Ned finds remarkable. He names four different places he expected them to be, as if to say... "WTF, guys? After all that, you're just up here chilling by the campfire? What gives?" So maybe Ned was scouring the Shire Highgarden, when some vagrant just happened to mention three toughs guarding the nearby mountain pass. But my guess was that he did have something formal in mind - that he might have been headed to Starfall, to make amends with House Dayne for disgracing Ashara in some way. Perhaps he'd even betrothed himself to Ashara before the war... and broken that promise with his marriage to Catelyn following Brandon's death. Or something equally unsupported and conjectural. Regardless, if he expected a trial of seven then he was prepared either to challenge or to be challenged in the name of justice for something specific and personal. The fight in the Prince's Pass - as represented in the "old dream," anyway - doesn't quite fit that kind of formal arrangement.
  11. Might lend itself well to a theory involving Petyr Baelish, though. Slender and quick. I'm still somewhat surprised nobody's worked that theory up in detail. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do. Or, if you wanted to go really crazy... note the similar description of the Singers in the cave beyond the Wall. Small, dark, and quick. Watchful. Intelligent. ...
  12. Yes, I could have been more clear. But this seems fair. In the text, "R+L" is described as rape - and those who imagine such a sexual encounter took place view Rhaegar as a villain. In contrast, those who reflect on Rhaegar's good, noble, dutiful character never imagine a sexual encounter with Lyanna. Furthermore, those who knew Lyanna remember her as a fighter, fiercely loyal to her family, and concerned about fidelity in marriage. With these things in mind... the notion that "R+L" could have occurred as some kind of consensual sexual relationship seems problematic. Right. I certainly agree with this. It's plausible, as far as it goes. I think you and I discussed this before, Matthew (albeit long ago)... that the only absolute requirement for R+L=J is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were sexually involved. And it's certainly plausible that Martin could work that into the story eventually, even if no direct evidence yet exists in the text to support it. But as you say... "romance" is not necessary to the theory.
  13. Sure. But (1) Ned is in the South, headed toward a southern keep; (2) he may or may not have expected the KG in the Prince's Pass; and (3) a trial of seven is primarily about justice and honor, and requires a fighter's willingness to lay his own life down for another. Ned, recall, is the guy who - later in his life - instructed his son: "Know the men who follow you... and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger." Anyway. What's interesting to me is the possibility that Ned had some personal atonement to make... that it might have have involved House Dayne in some way. Martin offers enough material there to make that an entertaining thought experiment (IMO). But the most intriguing might be this reflection by old Barry Selmy:
  14. Would be just the right composition and size for a Trial of Seven, though.
  15. The premise that X could have impregnated Lyanna Stark is "easily plausible within the text." But this true for any X, not just for Rhaegar. The problem, as I see it, comes down to questionable justification and sources for the claim that X = R . When you boil it down, R+L is Robert Baratheon's Theory. And it's a rape story... not a romance. Many readers forget that Robert is the one who first suggests the idea in the text - but he does so quite early (AGOT chapters 4 and 12) and quite forcefully. Robert is adamant that Rhaegar sexually assaulted Lyanna "hundreds of times." And whether it's true or not, he's got plenty of incentive for believing and advancing that story... after all, it forms the basis for his claim to the throne. Thing is, by the end of AGOT, Martin's pulled a bait and switch on his readers. Back in chapter 12, Robert was the heroic king and Rhaegar the kidnapper who raped Ned's sister. But after 72 chapters we realize (1) that Robert was a fool... and (2) that nobody else had much of a problem with Rhaegar. In fact, Rhaegar's begun to look like a model citizen prince. He's certainly no womanizer, according to anyone but Robert. So this, in a nutshell, is the problem with RLJ: RLJ is the theory that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. (Robert's Theory) But perpetrating rape seems out of character for Rhaegar. It is fundamentally a fool's theory... because Robert was a fool. But for some reason we readers cling to it. And the various iterations of RLJ amount to little more than attempts to overcome the cognitive dissonance captured in these two bullet points.