Why the Kingsmoot is Awesome & Necessary [spoilers]

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

The S3 scene with Yara/Asha going off to the Dreadfort raises questions about her TV storyline, subsequently splashing cold water on the possibility of us seeing the Kingsmoot(KM) proper. GoT is an overall great but obvi not perfect adaptation (e.g. Dany as a white dot in a sea of brown people was one of the most dumb & tone deaf things I've ever seen on scripted TV), so we can only guess what the writers and producers have in store- they've said season 5 and beyond give them nightmares. Let me delve into why the Kingsmoot is awesome & necessary.

The Kingsmoot event is more or less the official half way point of the story. After dominating the early stages of the war the Lannisters have lost much of their power & intimidation factor. Dany is dithering in a quagmire. What stability there is in the realm is tenous. With the Kingsmoot, intro to angry Dorne, a well prepared White Harbor, and JonCon/faegon/GoldenCompany et cetera all about the same time we learn that there is much more game ahead in GoT w/ some well rested players yet to entter the scene. But the Kingsmoot winner, the megalomaniacal warlocky alpha pirate Euron with his Dragonhorn specifically, is something of a gamechanger.

It's important to think far ahead when making predictions for the near term. That Dragonhorn will be an essential item/MacGuffin (horn on TWOW book cover = Dragonhorn, Horn of Winter/Joramun, possible kraken horn?). Euron will def play a big part in the end game- he is elluded to in prophesies and fire visions. Also, Aeron and Victarion have POV chapters in the last two books w/ confirmed POV chapters in TWOW. Every POV character has made it to the show. Season 4 will see the death or stage exit of: Joff, Tywin, Shae, Queen of Thorns, Varys, Oberyn, Jorah. Think of how much screen time that frees up. After being THE major location, Kings Landing will therefore take a back seat for a while.

Because of their importance for the second half of the story, Kingsmoot, Dorne, & JonCon/fAegon/GoldenCompany ought to get significant intro and focus in season 5 & beyond--that expanded story/world I think is why the producers are worried. This show/story is not just about Tyrion and Dany (most unsullied think her name is Caleesi.

Also, the Greyjoy uncles are just plain awesome. Pirates are popular (2 new high profile pirate shows about to come out--Black Sails on Starz & Crossbones on NBC). A craycray one eyed blue lipped warlock viking pirate king is TV gold.

Also, Aeron is very memorable and religions are important to the story to come. Victation is a beast and needed for mereen battle. He shows up w/ a Dragonhorn & a fleet right when Danny has lost control of her Dragons & needs a ride to Westeros) Also he is beloved of GRRM and his chapters are written w/ such fun and verve as he's ever done. It makes sense narratively and logistically to intro all these characters and the Dragonhorn in one scene. Think burning of the 7 on Dragonstone scene. Or Hoster Tully's funeral. Or Brotherhoo w/o Banners intro. It doesn't take many minutes of sceentime to pull off a Kingsmoot and add these characters to next season.

Also, the Kingsmoot is really the only example of democracy we have in Westeros and is a nice contrast to hereditary rulers or warlords who muck things up so often (new trailer indicates Dany may be losing her luster, thankfully). The Kingsmoot is cinematic and accomplishes several essential things in one scene, which is exactly what you want in a script/edit of moving picture storytelling.

Also, There is bound to be another Kingsmoot in the next two books, what w/ WoW Aeron POV on the Isles and Theon/Asha having the potential to pull a Tormund The Latecomer move. Thus it stands to reason both Kingsmoots will actually make the show.

Season 5 and onward are going to be very tricky & very interesting. I want a good adaption, not a good "loosely based on" TV show. But the producers know more than anyone but GRRM about how it all ends so we'll soon see. Would love to hear opinions from smart people. I'm at the beach typing this on my nook and I'm tired so goodbye for now. What is Dead May Never Die.

[Tixu Oty]

I think the Kingsmoot is awesome and I really like the Ironborn plot although I had trouble getting into it at first. I'm very curious to find out what Aeron does in the next book and I hope it's something important because he's my favorite Greyjoy uncle, but unfortunately, as he hasn't done much so far, he's the most likely not to be in the show.

It's true that all POVs have been characters in the show so far, but that's because up untill where the show is now, there aren't that many point of view characters.

You also point out that in season 5 a lot of big characters will be either dead or not very relevant anymore, and that's makes me very hopeful for the Ironborn and Dorne story but for the Ironborn, there is a big chronology problem. Melisandre threw 3 leeches in the fire, which means that

Balon Greyjoy is supposed to die

very soon, that is in season 4.

So I'm still hoping that the writers find a reason to delay the Kingsmoot and all the big Ironborn plot until season 5, but right now it doesn't look very likely, especially since we still have no idea what is going to happen with Yara. I'm trying to think how this could work out but so far I don't really know. I suppose there are two ways this could work

1/ Euron could turn up pretty soon,

right after Balon's death, and declare he's the new boss.

Then Aeron could start plotting with Victarion but why wait so long for the actual Kingsmoot without it being boring? And how can they find pre Kingsmoot plot without taking up too much time on season 4? That's the tricky part.

We can hope they found something but well, it doesn't seem like the Greyjoy brothers have been cast so... I don't think there's much hope there.

2/ They could simply report

Balon's death

without actually showing it, just like they did in the books. Yara will find out, but still go about her business of trying to save her brother, then somehow go back home at the end of season 4. Then season 5 will show her home, and only then will we be introduced to her uncles and stuff. And they could make Yara come up with the idea of the Kingsmoot, which would make up for the delay.

Btw, I don't think the horn on the WoW cover is an official thing.

[Koi No Yokan]

I'm not particularly fond of the Ironborn, but I loved the Kingsmoot. I really can't see why they would omit it from the show; considering it occurs in one of the slower parts of books, is a great portrayal of the Ironborn culture, introduces the horn, and has some important character moments... besides, I really want to hear "Dragonbinder" and see it fuck up the horn-blower!

[Brownwind]

Damphair was suffering a Dilemma he wanted Vic to rule but the crows eye was rising in power

the chapter where he contemplates the problem while getting caught in a rip is awesome and the way he comes up a way to solve the impasse

without bloodshed is a stroke of (GRRM) brilliance

stannis killed renly for a chair and i see the kingsmoot the only way to solve the equivilent problem

IMOHO that, and the reader, flesh out ironborn and in only two chapters and added for me at least much more respect for their culture and intelligence

lacking those two elements I fear they will (after S1-3 representation) remain a characterization

[JagLover]

The Kingsmoot was an interesting part of a bloated book of mixed quality.

It should not be part of the show due to the need for a far more focused story than the sprawling mess that is AFFC/ADWD.

The death of Robb has removed one separate shooting location and, if they are wise, the producers will replace it with only one more. Out of the host of new characters and locations added in the books, Ironborn, Dornish, Brienne's travels, Quentyn etc I would only add one in the show. Given that Brienne is an established character who meets up with another group of established characters that is the one I would keep, though skipping or condensing most of the start of her AFFC material.

Without introducing the Ironborn, which we then follow as in the book, the Kingsmoot serves no purpose.

[protar]

The Kingsmoot was an interesting part of a bloated book of mixed quality.

It should not be part of the show due to the need for a far more focused story than the sprawling mess that is AFFC/ADWD.

The death of Robb has removed one separate shooting location and, if they are wise, the producers will replace it with only one more. Out of the host of new characters and locations added in the books, Ironborn, Dornish, Brienne's travels, Quentyn etc I would only add one in the show. Given that Brienne is an established character who meets up with another group of established characters that is the one I would keep, though skipping or condensing most of the start of her AFFC material.

Without introducing the Ironborn, which we then follow as in the book, the Kingsmoot serves no purpose.

Robb's isn't the only reduction in plot threads though. Jon and Sam are back together, and Jaime is back at KL. Stannis' travels to the Wall may be merged with Asha/Theon's story to a degree. We also have Sansa going off to the Vale but ultimately it's still 3 less plots then last time. That said I don't mind that they cut out the KM - Having Euron just take the throne outright simplifies things.

[Tangbrand]

The Kingsmoot was an interesting part of a bloated book of mixed quality.

It should not be part of the show due to the need for a far more focused story than the sprawling mess that is AFFC/ADWD.

The death of Robb has removed one separate shooting location and, if they are wise, the producers will replace it with only one more. Out of the host of new characters and locations added in the books, Ironborn, Dornish, Brienne's travels, Quentyn etc I would only add one in the show. Given that Brienne is an established character who meets up with another group of established characters that is the one I would keep, though skipping or condensing most of the start of her AFFC material.

Without introducing the Ironborn, which we then follow as in the book, the Kingsmoot serves no purpose.

Cutting out 3 plotlines from the 4 plotlines you mentioned would be too much, and it would certainly cause an uproar in the readers. I can only imagine cutting out Quentyn's plotline, which has only one POV, and eventually dies, than cutting out the ironborn and dornish storylines which both have 3-3 POVs.

Besides getting rid of a bunch of characters in S4, we'll still have a lot of storylines in S5 they have to show, not counting Quentyn.

- Cersei, KL

- Jaime, Riverlands

- Brienne, Riverlands (Maybe they'll combine the two? Their paths cross eventually at the end of Dance with Dragons)

- Daenerys, Meereen

- Tyrion, Essos

- Theon, the North

- Jon Snow, the Wall

- Arya, Braavos

- Samwell, Braavos (probably combined with the latter two)

- Sansa, the Vale

- Bran, beyond the Wall

- Davos, White Harbor

- Greyjoys, Iron Islands

- Martells, Dorne

Did I miss something? :) (I left out Jon Connington because I think he will only have seperate storyline in S6)

Despite all that, I still think that D&D will be able to handle it.

[Phonzadellika]

The Kingsmoot is awesome, but not necessary. Euron can just show up with the horn and hand it to Victarian.

If it doesn't happen in Season 4 then it needs to not happen at all. If D&D are smart they'll cut FFC/DWD to be done by the end of Season 5.

[JagLover]

Cutting out 3 plotlines from the 4 plotlines you mentioned would be too much, and it would certainly cause an uproar in the readers. I can only imagine cutting out Quentyn's plotline, which has only one POV, and eventually dies, than cutting out the ironborn and dornish storylines which both have 3-3 POVs.

Besides getting rid of a bunch of characters in S4, we'll still have a lot of storylines in S5 they have to show, not counting Quentyn.

- Cersei, KL

- Jaime, Riverlands

- Brienne, Riverlands (Maybe they'll combine the two? Their paths cross eventually at the end of Dance with Dragons)

- Daenerys, Meereen

- Tyrion, Essos

- Theon, the North

- Jon Snow, the Wall

- Arya, Braavos

- Samwell, Braavos (probably combined with the latter two)

- Sansa, the Vale

- Bran, beyond the Wall

- Davos, White Harbor

- Greyjoys, Iron Islands

- Martells, Dorne

Did I miss something? :) (I left out Jon Connington because I think he will only have seperate storyline in S6)

Despite all that, I still think that D&D will be able to handle it.

Well here's one reader who wouldn't be creating an uproar.

An interesting task might be to look at how much time each of the storylines above need in order to do them justice and bear in mind it should ideally be condensed into 1 season. Leaving just 3 seasons for the last two books.

You could quite easily spend the entire season on just Arya, Jon, Kings Landing and Dany and not feel as if the story were being dragged out. Add in Brienne, Jaimie, Theon, Sansa all with quite extensive material to cover. Then popping in on Samwell, Bran, Davos, Asha, Stannis. That to me is a packed season jumping between a large number of locations and packed with incident before you bring in a single new character from AFFC/ADWD.

[Kungsmurfen]

If it doesn't happen in Season 4 then it needs to not happen at all. If D&D are smart they'll cut FFC/DWD to be done by the end of Season 5.

I think that's what they're doing and I think they'll still fit in the kingsmoot early for season 5.

Yara goes looking for Theon and establishes herself as an awesome female character --> Late season 4 we get to know that Balon is dead --> Yara starts her journey home --> Season 5 she's back at Iron isles --> Kingsmoot about episode 3-4 --> She flee and gets captured by Stannis long before the end of the season

[Annara Snow]

I'm not fond of the Ironborn in general, but the Kingsmoot was one of the most exciting moments of AFFC, so why would they want to cut it out? They have to introduce Euron and Victarion (at least) anyway, and isn't it better to do that with a scene like the Kingsmoot, rather than another "two people have a long talk in a throne room" type scene?

[Tixu Oty]

I'm not fond of the Ironborn in general, but the Kingsmoot was one of the most exciting moments of AFFC, so why would they want to cut it out? They have to introduce Euron and Victarion (at least) anyway,

About that, a lot of people here seem to think the show might merge the nuncles into just two or even just one. But I don't even know how it could work. How can Euron remain boss when he's sailing to the other side of the world? Not realistic. Or maybe I just lack imagination but I think it would suck.

[Colonel Green]

About that, a lot of people here seem to think the show might merge the nuncles into just two or even just one. But I don't even know how it could work. How can Euron remain boss when he's sailing to the other side of the world? Not realistic. Or maybe I just lack imagination but I think it would suck.

A lot of the debate around merging the characters hinges on what happens in the later books, which we can't really know for certain, but if the writers want to really streamline the narrative (which is going to have to happen at somewhat in AFFC/ADWD), the Ironborn sideplots are an obvious one to slim down. Whether it's realistic for a Euron/Victarion hybrid to just leave, it could easily work within the reality of the show -- particularly since the Ironborn invasion of the Reach is going to be heavily downplayed if not cut entirely (all the Shield Islands stuff, for instance).

[oierem]

With the Kingsmoot, intro to angry Dorne, well prepared White Harbor, and JonCon/faegon/GC etc all about the same time we learn that there is much more game ahead and some well rested players have yet to enter the scene. .

This show/story is not just about Tyrion and Dany

You raise some good points, but I would argue that those two statements present some problems: Yes, with AFFC/ADWD several new players enter the game... the problem is that the game is far from concluded from the rest of the players, who have been around since season 1/2 and whom the audience cares about. Want it or not, for most of the audience (I most of the readers, I'd say), the story IS about Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Jaime, Cersei, the Stark kids and the Lannisters brothers, the dragons and White Walkers. All those players have been set up from the beginning but have yet to fulfill their purpose. None of them (the REAL big players, Ned was just the Obi-Wan of AGOT and Robb was a diversion) have died, all of them are waiting, trainning. And we (readers, audience) want to see the resolutions to those characters and storylines.

After four seasons following them, the show cannot shove them aside and focus on totally new players (who will NOT -and should NOT- have a bigger role in the endgame than the real main characters).

[Longspear Ryk]

you'd be crazy to think they wouldn't film this scene.

it'd look beautiful on screen

[Tixu Oty]

A lot of the debate around merging the characters hinges on what happens in the later books, which we can't really know for certain, but if the writers want to really streamline the narrative (which is going to have to happen at somewhat in AFFC/ADWD), the Ironborn sideplots are an obvious one to slim down. Whether it's realistic for a Euron/Victarion hybrid to just leave, it could easily work within the reality of the show -- particularly since the Ironborn invasion of the Reach is going to be heavily downplayed if not cut entirely (all the Shield Islands stuff, for instance).

I see what you're saying, and you're right, we don't know where all these stories are heading, so we're just guessing in the air there. But I think it also makes sense to assume events in the show shouldn't stray too far away from events in the books, since all events have repercussions, for example the Ironborn invasion has effects on Loras, and that might turn out to be not very relevant in the end, or it might be important.

And like oierem said, the real protagonists of the story are the characters who have been there since book one. But that doesn't mean all the others are of no importance. Obviously, the Greyjoys are not the heroes of this story, but GRRM would not be wasting time on them for no reason. It has to be heading somewhere, and chances are it's somewhere important.

[Mr Smith]

What are we talking about here guys? The only reason to cut out the Kingsmoot (one of the most exciting events from AFFC), would be if they were cutting out the Ironborn subplot entirely. That would give the writers an even greater headache than keeping it in, given the important role Victarion has to play in Essos.

It is true that AFFC/ADWD is going to be the most difficult part of the adaptation, (after all, it was the most difficult part for Martin to write). Quentyn's arc is almost certainly gone, and as a result Arienne's AFFC material is going to need significant rewriting. A lot of questions hang over the entire Northern storyline in AFFC/ADWD, given the ambiguous ending at the end of the latter book (ie, a conclusive stopping point at the end of season 5 is not clear). For me though, the Ironborn are too important to cut. I've already highlighted the importance of Victarion's arc, but Euron's attack on the Shields cannot be underestimated. It should feel like the jaws are closing on the Lannisters and the Iron Throne by the end of season 5 from all directions (the Tyrell's from within, the Ironborn from the West, Aegon from the east, etc).

Having said that, they might still cut it. Here's something to consider. In early Season 5, Dany is presented to a mysterious pirate with blue lips and an eyepatch, claiming a vendetta against the Iron Throne and offering to take her home. His identity will be revealed later, but he helps to win the Battle of Mereen and ultimately give Dany an option to go home. It's crackpot, but possible no?

[joachim]

No, the other reason they could cut the Kingsmoot is because, whether it happens or not, Euron will be king. It's really simple. Euron is the elder brother, Theon is missing and presumed dead, and a woman can't hope to rule the Ironborn.

[Le Cygne]

This show/story is not just about Tyrion and Dany (most unsullied think her name is Caleesi, and season 5 will intro lots of new characters (but no mew pov according to GRRM).

I agree with everything, it would add to the show, I'd like to see other stories.

[Tangbrand]

Having said that, they might still cut it. Here's something to consider. In early Season 5, Dany is presented to a mysterious pirate with blue lips and an eyepatch, claiming a vendetta against the Iron Throne and offering to take her home. His identity will be revealed later, but he helps to win the Battle of Mereen and ultimately give Dany an option to go home. It's crackpot, but possible no?

It's not a bad idea, and could work.

Still I think they won't cut the whole ironborn subplot, because:

- Every season they introduce quite a handful of new characters of various significance, why should they change this at S5? In past seasons they even introduced characters who had really a minor role (for example, Orell or Matthos, even they could have been skipped, and replaced with a narrative). Sure, the story for very much people, means the story of Tyrion, Dany, Jon, etc. (some of my friends even stopped reading the books after discovering they are not it AFFC), but I think it is much more to that, we can't narrow it down to some characters, just because they were around from the beginning. This should be especially true for the TV series, where D&D even shows scenes without the main characters (Bronn and Sandor, Jorah and Sir Barristan, Varys and Littlefinger, etc.), no one really complained about that.

- They already established the Iron Islands onscreen. And built the castle of Pyke set. Why not use it in future seasons to come?

- Avoiding the ironborn subplot alltogether would be pretty awkward. So, Balon dies (which we will see onscreen or don't), but afterward we won't hear a peep from the Iron Islands, or the ironborn just appear as a nameless mass just doesn't seem right.

- They did a very thorough job of establishing the great houses of Westeros, showing the major players and who rules which kingdom. Only the Martells are left, but I think they'll get to them in time. In this perspective, why would they skip the Greyjoys in the future seasons?

If D&D would be working on how to narrow down Martin's story and keep it as simple for a TV series as it can get, we should have already noticed it by now.