Sansa and Petyr

[Another Locust]

"Again, biased and narrow thinking. You make some good points, but your message seems provocative towards others."

Don't waste your breath, he's been around a few weeks now and I'm pretty sure he is a Troll.

Oh crap, I've made a huge mistake. I'm sure he's a Troll. In fact, it's certain that he is a Troll.

And I just gave him some Carrot Cake.

Moving on...

I think the reason why Sansa hasn't defended herself is, stated earlier in the thread, she can't trust anyone else. Like Littlefinger said (paraphrased), people can be controlled when you know what they want. Sansa is among the most hunted people in Westeros, and any number of the Lords Declarant could be willing to sell her back to Kings Landing. Not only that, but the Vale never joined with Robb Stark in the WOT5K, which Sansa herself noticed with Yohn Royce.

[Another Locust]

Pushing him out of the moon door is out of the question. They aren't in the eyrie no more and chances are big there are not going back there as winter has come, poison is likely and it is possibly foreshadowed that Sansa might kill him with that. "Poison is the weapon of a woman/mother" and Sansa took on the role as sweet robin's mother. Stabbing is also out of question and goes against what he taught her: "clean hands". What is also a plausible ending for Littlefinger is getting beheaded and his head spiked on the wall of winterfell.

Am I the only one that hopes she punishes him the Old way?

"We hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look him into his eyes and hear his final words. If you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

Nope.

Petyr has reached the zenith of his influence. His game is up. He thinks he's won, that he's got everything under control. Well, us readers know what happens to those guys, don't we ? They die. So will LF, and all indications are it'll be Sansa who will be behind his downfall.

She knows many of his darkest secrets. She has learned to play the Game the hard way by now, as evidenced by her donning the disguise.

Petyr's powerbase in the Vale is not as strong as he thinks, by far and some of those he thinks are his supporters (willingly or not) would turn on him in a heartbeat:

Lady Waynwood is probably the chief amongst these. Petyr thinks he's blackmailed her into betrothing Harry the Heir to Sansa. All it takes is Sansa revealing her true identity to Lady Waynwood and she would have an instant ally.

Lord Corbray, whose marriage is brokered by Petyr, is very likely playing him false, as evidenced by the surprise showing of several of the Lords Declarant at his wedding. It is written so as to give the reader the first impression of Petyr's plans working and weakening the lords Declarant, while in reality it indicates the exact opposite. Remember, Lyn is the one who's buddy-buddy with Petyr, and Lyonel has never forgiven him for getting Lady Forlorn. Now all of a sudden he has a young wife who will probably soon be with child, and Lyn will cease to have any use as heir. Say bye-bye you little pedophilic bastard.

Royce, well, he hates Petyr already. There really needs be no scheming done to have him ready to kill him.

Gilwood Hunter. Petyr has revealed how Harlan probably will try to kill him to Sansa, strongly indicating that he is aiding him in this. Need I explain further how this could bite him in the ass ?

Lords Lynderly and Grafton. Probably the strongest supporters Petyr has in the Vale. And just so happens "Alayne" is in the perfect position to dig up dirt on them, being as they both has sent their sons to the Eyrie to serve Robert.

Finally, Sansa has successfully gained the trust of the person who, after all, holds the only real power in the Vale: Lord Sweetrobin. Petyr may be the Lord Protector, but if Robert orders him to fly, he will do so. That is very much what I think will happen: Sansa will weaken Petyr's powerbase by strategically revealing his plots to those involved. With their backing she will accuse Petyr of plotting Robert's death, and given that Sweetrobin is so fully under her influence, he will call for what he usually does and make Petyr fly. Which will be a fittingly ironic end to him as he gets to join his wife at the foot of the Eyrie.

Really good breakdown of the Lords Declarant! The Vale is definitely ready to sink, but I don't know if LF is going down with the ship. Jaime was considering appointing LF as the hand of the king in one of his chapters and Kevan just died, leaving the position open. LF might just cut his losses or leave the Vale to one of his allies. He seems too evil to die before the very end anyways

[Lord Reaver]

Really good breakdown of the Lords Declarant! The Vale is definitely ready to sink, but I don't know if LF is going down with the ship. Jaime was considering appointing LF as the hand of the king in one of his chapters and Kevan just died, leaving the position open. LF might just cut his losses or leave the Vale to one of his allies. He seems too evil to die before the very end anyways

I doubt it. As I pointed out, LF thinks he's got the Vale right where he wants it, he doesn't realize that much of his powerbase is precarious and only needs Sansa to whisper the right thing in a couple of ears for him to be facing the moon door.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

AnotherLocust; Yes, its quite clear he lives under a bridge, don't feed him ;)

P.S I'm hoping for a beheading with a bloody sharp VS sword, in teh courtyard of WF, followed by his head on a spike. I really do hope so. :devil:

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Am I the only one that hopes she punishes him the Old way?

"We hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look him into his eyes and hear his final words. If you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."

Actually those who believe that the "maid slaying the giant" isn't fully fulfilled have a great theory that Littlefinger will end up getting beheaded, his head spiked on the wall of Winterfell. It would be a perfect ending for him. A compensation for playing part in Ned's death ^_^

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Not only that, but the Vale never joined with Robb Stark in the WOT5K, which Sansa herself noticed with Yohn Royce.

Actually the Lord Declarants were on the point of rebelling against Lysa to join Robb. I think there are several great allies Sansa could get in the Vale. In fact I believe that Sansa is strategically the perfect place a Stark-Tully can be. If she plays her cards right she could reconquest the North/Winterfell.

[Another Locust]

Actually the Lord Declarants were on the point of rebelling against Lysa to join Robb. I think there are several great allies Sansa could get in the Vale. In fact I believe that Sansa is strategically the perfect place a Stark-Tully can be. If she plays her cards right she could reconquest the North/Winterfell.

Sansa, however, isn't aware of this. I should have been more specific, I guess.

Actually those who believe that the "maid slaying the giant" isn't fully fulfilled have a great theory that Littlefinger will end up getting beheaded, his head spiked on the wall of Winterfell. It would be a perfect ending for him. A compensation for playing part in Ned's death ^_^

I agree, the prophecy doesn't make sense without Baelish's demise. However, expect the unexpected when GRRM is writing something. Remember the Red Wedding...

[Margaret Ballinger]

I agree with Queen Sansa Stark ! To me, Sansa's whole storyline is not about the damsel in distress, It's is that everyone, even the Hound, is trying to corrupt her. Telling her the way she should think. The girl has faith, she prays almost everyday. Littlefinger is just her latest threat to her moralities. The Hound told her that true knights and gods don't exist. Cersei tries to get her drunk. Joffrey tries to break her spirit. The Tyrells tried false flattery. Everyone is trying to mind-trip her.

I believe that Littlefinger can't reveal her identity until Cersei is taken down, otherwise when she finds out she will send a force. He wants her a widow from Tyrion, he is the heir to Casterly Rock, so I doubt he will get the marriage annulled. Also she would have to present herself to a High Septon to ensure she is still a maiden, otherwise the marriage stands. That would risk exposing her as well. So I don't know the game he is playing about the wedding to Harry.

I do think that Littlefinger eventually is planning on marrying her once he reveals her identity as not being his daughter. He wants the North and he offered to marry Sansa before. I think he is trying to lay the groundwork by kissing her a lot, thinking he can seduce her eventually so when the time comes.....

But for now Sansa thinks he's a creep and is starting to become aware of how deadly he is. And Lysa just spilled quite a lot too about Jon Arryn and sending the letter to frame Cersei for it. Sansa just has to put the pieces together and realize that he was plotting against her family. And he openly admits to her his plans to kill her cousin SweetRobin. Sansa's not stupid, but she is playing along. She has no other choice right now.

Also 3 hedge knights were recently employed by Littlefinger, and at least one of them is searching for her. He told Brienne that Varys was offering a reward. So we know of one. It's just speculation, the other knight matches Elder Brother on Quiet Isle except for a beard, and earlier when Brienne was there she noticed that while monks usually shaved, he had noticable stubble as if he was growing a beard. At any rate at least one person is looking for her and has been introduced to her already. So I think GRRM is setting something up. Also Littlefinger believes he has the last heir to Winterfell, so if Rickon is found and restored it will ruin his plans. So between Rickon coming back, his desire to kill off more of her family like SweetRobin, she realizes that Littlefinger is still playing her and flees, a hedge knight or two tries to carry her off or she snaps and goes 'medieval on his a*s,' something is in the works and I highly doubt Littlefinger is going to live 'happily ever after' with Sansa and Winterfell as he plans.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa, however, isn't aware of this. I should have been more specific, I guess.

I agree, the prophecy doesn't make sense without Baelish's demise. However, expect the unexpected when GRRM is writing something. Remember the Red Wedding...

No she is aware of it. We get that bit of information in one of her chapters.

From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn’s bannermen resented Lysa’s marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt’s failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support

I know why you think such thing, but honestly the more I think about the death of Eddard, Catelyn and Robb was needed. I mean if they have lived Sansa, Arya and Bran would have never grown as much as they have right now. They would have never relied on their instinct, intellect and strength if their parents and older brother lived. Why do you think that parents and teachers always die early on in the stories? Because the heroes would have never grown up. Ned, Cat and Robb had to die so the real Stark heroes would have emerged: Sansa, Arya and Bran.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa, however, isn't aware of this. I should have been more specific, I guess.

I agree, the prophecy doesn't make sense without Baelish's demise. However, expect the unexpected when GRRM is writing something. Remember the Red Wedding...

No she is aware of it:

From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn’s bannermen resented Lysa’s marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt’s failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support

I know why you think such thing, but honestly the more I think about the death of Eddard, Catelyn and Robb was needed. I mean if they have lived Sansa, Arya and Bran would have never grown as much as they have done. They would have never relied on their instinct, intellect and strength if their parents and older brother lived. Why do you think that parents and teachers always die early on in the stories? Because the heroes would have never grown up. Ned, Cat and Robb had to die so the real Stark heroes would have emerged: Sansa, Arya and Bran.

[Sweetgirl205]

I hope Sansa gets away from Littlefinger quick!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The board is dark and full of errors... >_<

I see that you are failing to see the point of Sansa. You are right about one thing Sansa does represent the damsel in distress archetype, but I disagree with that it stop at that. GRRM likes to subvert the tropes and the best way to subvert that trope is for Sansa to save herself and someone else. I don't think it is coincidence that her last chapter ended before we got a glimpse of her thoughts about Littlefinger's scheme. Sansa is completely fed up with arranged marriages and I hardly doubt that she will go along with it and murdering her cousin. It wouldn't surprise me that her first chapter in TWOW will be about first glance of her resisting.

Sansa is already rebelling since SoS. After SR destroys her castle, she wanted to tell Lysa that she didn't want the marriage and to be sent with Myranda. And she told Marillion to f- off. She couldn't talk to Lysa because Lysa went mad before she got the courage to actually face her but the seed of her resisting being a puppet is already there.

[MyLittleFinger]

I'm slightly amused when people hope that Shadrich will "save" her...because Varys is obviously much more trustworthy than the person who got her out of Kingslanding and saved her from being chucked down a 25 mile drop by a raving lunatic.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I'm slightly amused when people hope that Shadrich will "save" her...because Varys is obviously much more trustworthy than the person who got her out of Kingslanding and saved her from being chucked down a 25 mile drop by a raving lunatic.

Nobody is claiming that Shadrich is there to 'save' her. In fact none of us are in favor of someone 'saving' Sansa. I am fed up with the notion someone has to 'save' her. News flash her narrative is written in way she, and only she, can save herself.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nobody is claiming that Shadrich is there to 'save' her. In fact none of us are in favor of someone 'saving' Sansa. I am fed up with the notion someone has to 'save' her. News flash her narrative is written in way she, and only she, can save herself.

But Sansa does need a bit of help. Or she might, at some point, specially if she, at any chances, needs to leave the Vale. She can't go by herself. A Knight going with her is like carrying a pepper spray at most.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

But Sansa does need a bit of help. Or she might, at some point, specially if she, at any chances, needs to leave the Vale. She can't go by herself. A Knight going with her is like carrying a pepper spray at most.

I am not denying she doesn't need some help, but there is difference from being helped and saved. I am more in favor she stays in the Vale. She has more allies there in the older branch of Royce family, Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, Templetons and possibly Blackfish if he comes to the gates of the moon.

[Lord Reaver]

But Sansa does need a bit of help. Or she might, at some point, specially if she, at any chances, needs to leave the Vale. She can't go by herself. A Knight going with her is like carrying a pepper spray at most.

What help does Sansa need ? Having allies isn't the same as being helped, or are we saying that Dany was helped to where she is now ?

Why on earth would Sansa leave the Vale now ? It's a perfect power base for her, once she gets rid of LF, with plenty of powerful allies, all of whom have unspent armies.

No, Sansa's not going anywhere, and she has all the tools she'll need to help herself for a good while yet.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

What help does Sansa need ? Having allies isn't the same as being helped, or are we saying that Dany was helped to where she is now ?

Why on earth would Sansa leave the Vale now ? It's a perfect power base for her, once she gets rid of LF, with plenty of powerful allies, all of whom have unspent armies.

No, Sansa's not going anywhere, and she has all the tools she'll need to help herself for a good while yet.

Exactly. Sansa is right now in the strategically perfect place a Stark/Tully can be and nor do I think it is a coincidence that she is there. The Vale will be the perfect place where she transforms from a little bird into a falcon (a possible animal she can warg). I hear falcons eat mockingbirds, especially Merlins and Sansa played as a Merlin in a game with Margaery. :smoking:

[Another Locust]

It would be an enormous atrocity on GRRM's part if she did get 'saved.' I was relieved when Brienne's travelogue of the Riverlands took a step in the wrong direction. A huge disaster was avoided.

What help does Sansa need ? Having allies isn't the same as being helped, or are we saying that Dany was helped to where she is now ?

Why on earth would Sansa leave the Vale now ? It's a perfect power base for her, once she gets rid of LF, with plenty of powerful allies, all of whom have unspent armies.

No, Sansa's not going anywhere, and she has all the tools she'll need to help herself for a good while yet.

Remember that Littlefinger also has powerful "allies" who would commit atrocities without question. Not that they're nearby to help him, but we cannot ignore this. The only thing left is for her to use these tools to her advantage.

That would be difficult to do when you have a price of 3,000 dragons over your head. Not yet, at least.