American Civil War, yet again

[TheKitttenGuard]

TKG,

Are you really going sown that path? Because it seems, at least to me, to imply that it is better to be wiped out or forced into cultural genocide than to be enslaved and later emancipated.

Your arguement is going to since we are not discussing something worst so nothing should be done.

I think how the nation developed in regards in relations to Black American is uniquely American. It will have the wider and deeper impact in this country.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TKG,

Not my point. My point is that if justice requires that African-American's receive reparations for centuries of racism does ot not also follow that justice demands the same for other groups who have suffered as much if not more serious consequences from racism? Therefore, looking at this only with regard to racism as to African-Americans may be too narrow in scope.

[Summah]

TKG,

Not my point. My point is that if justice requires that African-American's receive reparations for centuries of racism does ot not also follow that justice demands the same for other groups who have suffered as much if not more serious consequences from racism? Therefore, looking at this only with regard to racism as to African-Americans may be too narrow in scope.

Ser Scot, I think the only group that's had suffered as much or more than from racism than black people is Native Americans, however horrific things that deserved (and in the case of Japanese Americans received) reparations have happened to other groups, and I don't think it serves much purpose to start playing oppression olympics here. Certainly I personally support reparations for Native Americans, Native Hawaiians and other groups as well as African Americans, but I think that reparations that come in the form, as Coates wrote, as a reckoning that changes society are going to be far more helpful in the longterm than purely monetary reparations even if the amount of money involved is lower.

[BloodRider]

Yes. In all probability you are right Scott. It should be addressed. Two things tho. He discusses Hispanics as well as blacks.

Also not addressing all of the wrongs is a shit excuse for not addressing any. It is one that Conservatives use all the fucking time for all its shitty logic.

One might even argue it is good policy to address the biggest problem that has the biggest impact first, no?

[The onion wight]

No. What he's saying is that racists use absentee fathers to distort and change the conversation, kind of how you've been doing in this thread.

I think you're seeing nuance were none exists. In my opinion he presents a pretty straightforward argument, that black people adhering to middle class norms, I.e. Establishing nuclear families, is a waste of time.

Btw when did men choosing to be involved in the rearing of their own children become a cultural signifier of the middle class???

[The onion wight]

Yes. In all probability you are right Scott. It should be addressed. Two things tho. He discusses Hispanics as well as blacks.

Also not addressing all of the wrongs is a shit excuse for not addressing any. It is one that Conservatives use all the fucking time for all its shitty logic.

One might even argue it is good policy to address the biggest problem that has the biggest impact first, no?

So how much money we talking here? Anyone made an estimate?

[Galactus]

I think you're seeing nuance were none exists. In my opinion he presents a pretty straightforward argument, that black people adhering to middle class norms, I.e. Establishing nuclear families, is a waste of time.

He's said no such thing. (nor I'd argue, are nuclear families a particlarly middle-class norm nowadays) What he has said is that adhering to nuclear family norms won't fix the issue.

[Summah]

I think it's clear that if tow actually read the article it was not done very caefully or closely.

[The Fallen]

I think you're seeing nuance were none exists. In my opinion he presents a pretty straightforward argument, that black people adhering to middle class norms, I.e. Establishing nuclear families, is a waste of time.

Btw when did men choosing to be involved in the rearing of their own children become a cultural signifier of the middle class???

Onion, you seem to be the only one with that interpretation. The quote you cited, when taken in context, attests to the fact that having a father in the home won't change a thing when it comes to racism. Mostly because historically black men haven't been able to stand up to racist institutions.

You have to do a little better than that.

[The Fallen]

So how much money we talking here? Anyone made an estimate?

Not the author of the article. Right now you're the only one obsessed with that.

[jarl the climber]

Out of curiosity I've been searching the net and reputable conservative sites for for a response to Coates paper, other than a cursory article in the National Review there really has been no response, barely even an acknowledgement. I think thats fairly telling.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Nunki,

D. Granting reparations to a group, not to indivuduals, who suffered injustice as a group, not necessarily as individuals, necessarily implicates other groups who have suffered injustice. This does not mean that it is not possible to make reparations but it does present practical difficulties if one group is granted reparations. Others will want similar treatment.

This in no way shape or form means that a priori reparations are not deserved. It means it paying such reparations may practically be very difficult.

[The Fallen]

Nunki,

D. Granting reparations to a group, not to indivuduals, who suffered injustice as a group, not necessarily as individuals, necessarily implicates other groups who have suffered injustice. This does not mean that it is not possible to make reparations but it does present practical difficulties if one group is granted reparations. Others will want similar treatment.

This in no way shape or form means that a priori reparations are not deserved. It means it paying such reparations may practically be very difficult.

Oh, individuals suffered. Coates cites cases in Mississippi, after slavery had ended, where black families with land had their lands confiscated or forcibly taken for a miniscule payment. The article talks about how slaves themselves were worth more than any other property that the slave owners possessed. He even gives examples of some slave owners, who had inherited their slaves, freeing them after death, but not just freeing them; giving them money and land because they knew the slaves had been exploited.

There's already a precedent set with the Japanese-Americans, the victims of sterilization by the government, the victims of the Tuskegee experiment and the descendants of the FL town of Rosewood. In each case, as well as Germany's payments for the Holocaust, payments were made to both the group and victims or descendants.

I think slavery and the atrocities committed against the Native Americans are by far the worst. But if other groups have a legitimate grievances then why shouldn't they have redress?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Fallen,

The difference here is that reperations are not to be made to indivuduals for wrongs suffered by those indivuduals as with Japanese internees. Reperations are to go to those in a group based upon wrongs suffered by the group as a whole rather than with individualized findings of harm.

[The Fallen]

Fallen,

The difference here is that reperations are not to be made to indivuduals for wrongs suffered by those indivuduals as with Japanese internees. Reperations are to go to those in a group based upon wrongs suffered by the group as a whole rather than with individualized findings of harm.

But there are other examples where both individuals and the group were compensated. Coates uses Germany as an example. Germany paid both victims and the state of Israel. We also don't know the guidelines that will be drawn up for compensation. Maybe heirs will be compensated, as it happened with the Tuskegee experiment. But that's putting the cart before the horse. Our country doesn't even want to have that discussion.

[The onion wight]

Not the author of the article. Right now you're the only one obsessed with that.

I think it's a pretty fair question, how much money are we talking about and how will it be funded? Will it come from the general funds of the Federal Gov or will it be a special one off levy only payable by Caucasians?