American Civil War, yet again

[The Fallen]

` People think that Jim Crow happened centuries ago. But chew on this, the Civil Rights Act was passed nine years before I was born and M.L.K. was assassinated five years before I was born.

[The onion wight]

I'm not in favor of collectively punishing whole groups for the sins of individuals. To punish people for the sins of their distant ancestors is patently unfair, to punish people whose ancestors were either not in the country during the civil war or whose ancestors actually fought to free the salves borders on the fascistic. Labelling the entire white race as being responsible for black slavery and further being responsible for the ills of modern day black culture seems to me to be racist.

[Shryke]

I'm not in favor of collectively punishing whole groups for the sins of individuals. To punish people for the sins of their distant ancestors is patently unfair, to punish people whose ancestors were either not in the country during the civil war or whose ancestors actually fought to free the salves borders on the fascistic. Labelling the entire white race as being responsible for black slavery and further being responsible for the ills of modern day black culture seems to me to be racist.

You have obviously not read the article in the slightest. Like, not even the headline posted above.

[The Fallen]

I'm not in favor of collectively punishing whole groups for the sins of individuals. To punish people for the sins of their distant ancestors is patently unfair, to punish people whose ancestors were either not in the country during the civil war or whose ancestors actually fought to free the salves borders on the fascistic. Labelling the entire white race as being responsible for black slavery and further being responsible for the ills of modern day black culture seems to me to be racist.

No offense, but white people still benefit from the racism that still exists. A white person from Russia or Romania can arrive in this country and one generation later they're simply white and benefit from that privilege. Whereas an African American/Black person who's family has been in the U.S. for 200 years is still discriminated against simply because he's not white.

This argument is pretty naive. Chris Rock said it best:

"Shit, there ain't a white man in this room that would change places with me."

"None of you."

"None of you would change places with me. And I'm rich."

"That's how good it is to be white."

"There's a white, one-legged busboy in here right now that won't change places with my black ass. He's going, 'Nah man, I don't want to switch. I wanna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me.'"

Edited for clarity.

[Zorral]

It would also be good to read Ta-Nehisi's account of how and why, and the other researchers he worked with, to write this piece. He worked out a lot of it on his Atlantic Monthly blog. The quality of his commentators -- the Horde, he and they call themselves -- is high -- many are graduate students in the various fields dealt with, or other sorts of professionals.

I was there for a lot of it, and participated to a goodly degree, at one point myself, so I remember that time vividly. It was exhausting because ijiots who didn't READ and the inevitable trolls and racists would show up. He had to moderate this himself, so it was eating his writing time.

[The Fallen]

It would also be good to read Ta-Nehisi's account of how and why, and the other researchers he worked with, to write this piece. He worked out a lot of it on his Atlantic Monthly blog. The quality of his commentators -- the Horde, he and they call themselves -- is high -- many are graduate students in the various fields dealt with, or other sorts of professionals.

I was there for a lot of it, and participated to a goodly degree, at one point myself, so I remember that time vividly. It was exhausting because ijiots who didn't READ and the inevitable trolls and racists would show up. He had to moderate this himself, so it was eating his writing time.

I'll check it out.

[Zorral]

I'm not in favor of collectively punishing whole groups for the sins of individuals. To punish people for the sins of their distant ancestors is patently unfair, to punish people whose ancestors were either not in the country during the civil war or whose ancestors actually fought to free the salves borders on the fascistic. Labelling the entire white race as being responsible for black slavery and further being responsible for the ills of modern day black culture seems to me to be racist.

If you read the article you will see how it can work. For instance the Germans paid reparations to the state of Israel for the billions in theft and the murder of millions.

But you haven't read and you won't because you are the sort who doesn't want his comfy blank spots of historical events penetrated.

[Shryke]

If you actuall read the article, you know it's not about slavery really or even about specific monetary payments.

It's about the fact that the US government and society has had and still has an active policy of disenfranchising and stealing from blacks. (and other minotiries too like, say, the native americans)

Like, he's more focused on housing policy that was happening only a few decades ago.

[The Fallen]

If you read the article you will see how it can work. For instance the Germans paid reparations to the state of Israel for the billions in theft and the murder of millions.

But you haven't read and you won't because you are the sort who doesn't want his comfy blank spots of historical events penetrated.

Even corporations paid back-wages to the Jews who survived forced labor.

If you actuall read the article, you know it's not about slavery really or even about specific monetary payments.

It's about the fact that the US government and society has had and still has an active policy of disenfranchising and stealing from blacks. (and other minotiries too like, say, the native americans)

Like, he's more focused on housing policy that was happening only a few decades ago.

I haven't read it yet, but the problem was institutional racism. It permeated all facets of life for black folk, and in a negative way. It blows my mind when people don't get it and try to minimize the impact that has on a specific group of people.

[Shryke]

Even corporations paid back-wages to the Jews who survived forced labor.

I haven't read it yet, but the problem was institutional racism. It permeated all facets of life for black folk, and in a negative way. It blows my mind when people don't get it and try to minimize the impact that has on a specific group of people.

Is, not was.

[Zorral]

It was literally predation upon a particular group and class of people, to take their assets for themselves.

By the time of the housing crises in Chicago and elsewhere, the redlining, and so on, it was deliberate strategy, to target hard-working black families who had saved that essential chunk of money for the down-payment and mortgage -- get it away from them, and then balloon the payment in such ways as they couldn't keep paying, and then flip the house over again, upon another black family, etc. etc. etc. Numerous white real estate people got very wealthy that way. The G.I. Bill for both college and housing was pretty much denied black soldiers, so on and so forth. So African Americans were both targeted for what they did have to be taken away, and targeted to not get what others were given, making it twice as tough right there. And federal, state and local government were not only in it, but facilitated and enabled.

Sad, sad, sad history, for centuries now.

[The Fallen]

Is, not was.

Thanks for the important correction. It is ongoing and we've still got a way's to go.

It was literally predation upon a particular group and class of people, to take their assets for themselves.

By the time of the housing crises in Chicago and elsewhere, the redlining, and so on, it was deliberate strategy, to target hard-working black families who had saved that essential chunk of money for the down-payment and mortgage -- get it away from them, and then balloon the payment in such ways as they couldn't keep paying, and then flip the house over again, upon another black family, etc. etc. etc. Numerous white real estate people got very wealthy that way. The G.I. Bill for both college and housing was pretty much denied black soldiers, so on and so forth. So African Americans were both targeted for what they did have to be taken away, and targeted to not get what others were given, making it twice as tough right there. And federal, state and local government were not only in it, but facilitated and enabled.

Sad, sad, sad history, for centuries now.

And this goes all the way back to the inventions that slaves made, but didn't see a penny of, nor recognition for, because as slaves they couldn't patent any of their works.

[The onion wight]

You have obviously not read the article in the slightest. Like, not even the headline posted above.

I read some of it, sorry the link was to a veritable novel and I have a life. It seemed the usual list of historical grievances to justify guilt money from whites. Like I said, the vast majority of white Americans have no ancestry that benefited in any way from slavery.

It was literally predation upon a particular group and class of people, to take their assets for themselves.

By the time of the housing crises in Chicago and elsewhere, the redlining, and so on, it was deliberate strategy, to target hard-working black families who had saved that essential chunk of money for the down-payment and mortgage -- get it away from them, and then balloon the payment in such ways as they couldn't keep paying, and then flip the house over again, upon another black family, etc. etc. etc. Numerous white real estate people got very wealthy that way. The G.I. Bill for both college and housing was pretty much denied black soldiers, so on and so forth. So African Americans were both targeted for what they did have to be taken away, and targeted to not get what others were given, making it twice as tough right there. And federal, state and local government were not only in it, but facilitated and enabled.

Sad, sad, sad history, for centuries now.

The segregation in modern day Chicago, and in many other American cities, is as a result of white flight to the suburbs. The author(s) of the article lament this as an example of institutional racism, well if it is the Democratic Party is responsible as they've been in charge of that city for decades. The same party that blacks have voted overwhelmingly for decades.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Zorral,

White flight may be proof of cultural racism but I don't see how it could be "institutional"? If it's institutional what institution caused people to choose to move?

[Shryke]

I read some of it, sorry the link was to a veritable novel and I have a life. It seemed the usual list of historical grievances to justify guilt money from whites. Like I said, the vast majority of white Americans have no ancestry that benefited in any way from slavery.

Nope. See, this is what happens when you talk out of your ass. You spew shit and look dumb.

The segregation in modern day Chicago, and in many other American cities, is as a result of white flight to the suburbs. The author(s) of the article lament this as an example of institutional racism, well if it is the Democratic Party is responsible as they've been in charge of that city for decades. The same party that blacks have voted overwhelmingly for decades.

I'm not sure why you think this is even relevant. Discrimination against blacks was an active pan-party US government policy.

And blacks vote for Democrats because they aren't stupid. Both parties aren't equally bad on race issues. It's not even close to equal.

Again, read the article or don't comment on it.

[Shryke]

Zorral,

White flight may be proof of cultural racism but I don't see how it could be "institutional"? If it's institutional what institution caused people to choose to move?

Read the article. Or at least look up red-lining.

Or read this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/the-ghetto-is-public-policy/274147/

White Flight was public policy.

[James Arryn]

A lot of hostility going on in here.

Can I trust you all to resolve this peaceably?

( if it helps, think of me as French)

[Summah]

I read Coates' brilliant article yesterday, I've actually been planning to make a post about here, not in this thread in a new one, but haven't felt up to it.

Part of what he gets into in the article is almost a sort of truth and reconciliation idea, to reperations is about far more than money, he even says that the it may be that no reperarations are even possible, the point may be the process and the changing of society as a result. And the point he makes about Germany is good and how though they didn't want to at first they confronted their past is a good one. Here it is difficult, because there isn't anyone still alive who owned slaves, there are people alive who participated in lynching, redlining, segregation, the Bank of America sub prime people, that was recent, but all white people in the US benefit from white privilege.

[all swedes are racist]

Zorral,

Wow. Thanks for the link. Great, thought provoking, and frankly heart-breaking, read.

Onion wight etc,

Seriously, read the fucking thing before commenting.

[Ormond]

` People think that Jim Crow happened centuries ago. But chew on this, the Civil Rights Act was passed nine years before I was born and M.L.K. was assassinated five years before I was born.

Sorry, I know this is tangential -- but I can't resist commenting on your youth. I was a junior in high school when MLK was assassinated.