American Civil War, yet again

[Zorral]

Slate - Mike Pesca podcast discussing Ta-Nehisi's Atlantic Monthly piece. Woo, this one did go national - viral.

The number of e-mails I've received about it, from friends who don't tend to consider these matters in the way I do, but knowing I do, wanted to be sure I'd seen it, and wanted to ask questions, is just one indication of how every part of the article meant something to a lot of people, even as probably not everyone was affected equally by each section. But there's something there for everyone. Not so easy to accomplish with anything of substance in the media these days. :fencing: :cool4: :cheers:

Imma gonna predict the article will be one of the primary conversations at our bbq this weekend!

Then there's this too, which is terrific from a whole other perspective. It's a debate of three well-informed people who have read the piece carefully, including one with legal perspective too. They wanted Ta-Nehisi on, instead of their three white voices, but he's taken up all day by television appearances. Gabfest Radio - Slate-NPR is where you can listen. Run your cursor to the midpoint of the sonic bar, if you don't want to listen to the other stories.

[The Fallen]

It's a very very very long article, but I've finished reading all of it.

To answer some of your points. Yes the author is absolutely calling for financial reparations. The author also blows off any claims that the black community has been affected by the disintegration in family structures, stable black families with a mother and father at home is described as 'adhering to middle class norms' which does no good for black people. The author also makes no mention of the prohibition of narcotics which has done more than anything to destroy American inner cities.

The author is actually calling for a bill to pass that authorizes the discussion of the issue of slavery and reparations.

And what does the drug problem and single-parent homes have to do with reparations?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Fallen,

Why does there need to be a law to discuss slavery and reperations?

[The Fallen]

` And speaking about housing, I just remembered about this article I read about financial institutions and homes.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/01/blackstone-rental-homes-bundled-derivatives

[MerenthaClone]

Fallen,

Why does there need to be a law to discuss slavery and reperations?

To investigate the potential costs, benefits, and logistics of implementing reparations at a national level, Scot. Not for laymen to do so. For the federal government to do so. For the federal government to conduct an in-depth study on reparations would probably require a law, no?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Merentha,

You still don't need a law to do that. Any administration could do such a study on its own accord.

[The Fallen]

Merentha,

You still don't need a law to do that. Any administration could do such a study on its own accord.

I copied this from the article. (The Case for Reparations by Ta-Nehisi Coates)

For the past 25 years, Congressman John Conyers Jr., who represents the Detroit area, has marked every session of Congress by introducing a bill calling for a congressional study of slavery and its lingering effects as well as recommendations for “appropriate remedies.”

A country curious about how reparations might actually work has an easy solution in Conyers’s bill, now called HR 40, the Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African Americans Act. We would support this bill, submit the question to study, and then assess the possible solutions. But we are not interested.

[MerenthaClone]

Merentha,

You still don't need a law to do that. Any administration could do such a study on its own accord.

"Administration" as in the executive branch? They probably could. How would you go about doing that if you were a member of the legislative branch, as the person proposing the bill every session is?

[all swedes are racist]

Merentha,

You still don't need a law to do that. Any administration could do such a study on its own accord.

Maybe true, but none have. I don't know enough of congressional prodecure to know whether the bill is necessary for some kind of actionable response, but even if it is simply a symbolic gesture, the fact that it is repeatedly shot down, that they wont even entertain the idea, is telling.

Eta: for those who are interested; the text of HR 40

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

MC,

"Administration" as in the executive branch? They probably could. How would you go about doing that if you were a member of the legislative branch, as the person proposing the bill every session is?

Ask the sitting Administration to empower a department or bureau to do the investigation?

[The onion wight]

The author is actually calling for a bill to pass that authorizes the discussion of the issue of slavery and reparations.

And what does the drug problem and single-parent homes have to do with reparations?

The author's central thesis is that the problems facing the black community, prinicipally the lack of wealth creation and poor educational outcomes, are caused by white racism. He dismisses out of hand the idea that the lack of stable family structures might have anything to do with it and he does not mention the drug prohibition laws which has obviously contributed to lawlessness and is the principle reason so many young black mn are in prison. He's being deliberately disingenuous, contrary explanations are either dismissed out of hand or are ignored entirely.

And yes the author is absolutely calling for financial reparations from whites to blacks.

[all swedes are racist]

The author's central thesis is that the problems facing the black community, prinicipally the lack of wealth creation and poor educational outcomes, are caused by white racism. He dismisses out of hand the idea that the lack of stable family structures might have anything to do with it and he does not mention the drug prohibition laws which has obviously contributed to lawlessness and is the principle reason so many young black mn are in prison. He's being deliberately disingenuous, contrary explanations are either dismissed out of hand or are ignored entirely.

And yes the author is absolutely calling for financial reparations from whites to blacks.

Oh? I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt I'm regards to "drug prohibition laws" and "lawlessness"... But I don't think Coates dismisses or ignores either the break up of black families or the effect of drugs on black communities, but points to the root causes of more symptomatic problems. The break up of families, and the instances black youth involved in drug use and/or trade (not to mention incarceration rates tied to), are directly caused by racial discrimination and loss (theft) of wealth from African American communities and individuals, not the other way around.

ETA: I believe the author, as well as the author and backers of HR40, would be calling for the financial reparation to descendants of slaves by the US government. In addition to, you know, like an apology, recognition that this country participated in and benefitted from one of the most atrocious systematic violations of human rights in, y'know, history?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

The author's central thesis is that the problems facing the black community, prinicipally the lack of wealth creation and poor educational outcomes, are caused by white racism. He dismisses out of hand the idea that the lack of stable family structures might have anything to do with it and he does not mention the drug prohibition laws which has obviously contributed to lawlessness and is the principle reason so many young black mn are in prison. He's being deliberately disingenuous, contrary explanations are either dismissed out of hand or are ignored entirely.

And yes the author is absolutely calling for financial reparations from whites to blacks.

I'm not too keen on reparations, mainly because I'm not white, but I think you may be missing his point. The issues facing the black community might very well be due to lack of stable family structure or other issues with inner city culture. However, these issues could be traced back to slavery and institutional racism.

[Summah]

Institutional racism is ongoing as Coates shows in his article, that's a big part of the problem right there. Yes reparations are financial, but he also makes it clear that they need to be a sort of coming to terms with the past admitting it and appealing with it and hopefully the profound changes in our society and culture that result from that, instead of this "well my ancestors didn't have slaves it has nothing to do with me" shit from white people who still benefit greatly from white privilege.

[Ormond]

MC,

Ask the sitting Administration to empower a department or bureau to do the investigation?

Oh come on, Scot. If the Congress as a whole is doing the "asking", it has to do this by passing some sort of resolution through a vote, which is close enough to passing a "law" that I don't see the practical difference.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ormond,

The practical difference is that a law is, at least in my opinion, supposed to do something more than hypothetical. A law passed to fund a study to see if another law ought to be passed seem a tad like the snake eating its own tale.

Heck, can't a member of Congress direct the CBO to do a feasablity study without having to pass a law that the CBO do a feasablity study? I thought that's what the CBO did? Didn't it do that for the ACA when it was still a bill?

[ThinkerX]

And speaking about housing, I just remembered about this article I read about financial institutions and homes.

The corporate house buying scheme is blowing up. I've seen articles and blurbs elsewhere stating flat out that Blackstone is in dire straights because of the games they played and the way they totally miscalculated the costs associated with renting properties out.

The more extreme types are claiming we are looking at another major collapse of the housing/financial markets because of this.

[all swedes are racist]

Ormond,

The practical difference is that a law is, at least in my opinion, supposed to do something more than hypothetical. A law passed to fund a study to see if another law ought to be passed seem a tad like the snake eating its own tale.

Heck, can't a member of Congress direct the CBO to do a feasablity study without having to pass a law that the CBO do a feasablity study? I thought that's what the CBO did? Didn't it do that for the ACA when it was still a bill?

Scot,

Did you read the text of the proposed resolution? Again, I'm not very well versed in law nor political nitty-gritty, but from what I understand, this isn't a "law" to be passed, forcing every citizen to study and reflect on the history of slavery and issue a personal apology with check attached. It's more of a procedural necessity, aimed to get government to officially acknowledge the great crimes, and the repercussions thereof, committed against African slaves and their descendants.

[The Fallen]

The author's central thesis is that the problems facing the black community, prinicipally the lack of wealth creation and poor educational outcomes, are caused by white racism. He dismisses out of hand the idea that the lack of stable family structures might have anything to do with it and he does not mention the drug prohibition laws which has obviously contributed to lawlessness and is the principle reason so many young black mn are in prison. He's being deliberately disingenuous, contrary explanations are either dismissed out of hand or are ignored entirely.

And yes the author is absolutely calling for financial reparations from whites to blacks.

He's not dismissing anything. I'm fully aware, as I assume the author is, of the issues that have and continue to affect the Black/African American community. But those issues are separate from the discussion of reparations. You bring those up as a way to skirt around the issue of reparations. Reparations for slavery, not for any other issue that may be affecting the black community. The end result may be financial payments, but the author hasn't explicitly stated that in his piece.

[The Fallen]

Scot,

I may have confused you with my initial response the Onion. That's why I copied and pasted the text from the article. The bill includes recommendations to remedy the lingering effects of slavery. As R'hollor's Redin has stated, it's a first step. The author also points out that it's a first step that this country refuses to take. President Clinton apologized to Africa for the United States' role in slavery. Yet the government has refused to do the same to the actual slaves here in the States.