Heresy 117

[Melifeather]

But doesn't Ygritte mention that they are always there waiting

They appear out of nothing but snow when Bran & party are struggling to get to the COTF entrance to the cave.

There were wights under the snow. They only "wake up" after dark and it has to be cold. The question is, why were they near the entrance to the cave?

[wolfmaid7]

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

When we read this singular excerpt we see the use of magic as a effective (but not miraculous) way of offense AND defense.

And greyscale, a water magic curse. Maybe greyscale is akin to wight-fication but who cursed who?

I had brought this up when interpreting the Reed Oath which mirrors what we pagans call " innvoking or calling the quaters/Elemental". The parties basically bind themselves by blessings and curses in the ritual. I think this is what happened. The Oath was transgressed and the White cold/Mist/fog is the curse that followed.The Cold in my mind is still an entity,but what entity is a guess. I like the disembodied idea a lot.

One of my on going theories is that the Andals were there for the Long Night, and earlier for the Pact, and since then their maesters have been trying to write their way out of any responsibility so that they can claim they weren't there, but the Reed's creed/oath hints that they were there when they said they "swear by bronze and iron". Bronze representing the First Men and Iron representing the Andals. I also think that is the true meaning behind, "the North Remembers". They remember the Andals were there even though the Andals claim otherwise. Furthermore, if the Andals were there when the Pact was broken, it would explain why the Singers/Children fled beyond the Wall and why the Nights Watch seems to have more worshippers of the Seven than the Old Gods.

The Rhoynar cursed the dragonlords with greyscale, which in itself is a type of imprisonment trapping the dragonlords inside stone bodies. Wightification is a curse also, trapping the souls in the bones, and if you're looking to point a finger at anyone for the curse, look no further than the Singers/Children. They are the ones that called down their Hammer of Waters, just as Prince Garin of the Rhoynar called down their water curse. It's the combination of the water with fire and water with ice that caused the greyscale and wights, and both diseases or curse can be spread via touch or mist. In the north the cold mist and in the east the fog mist.

This is what i'm talking about yes yes and yes ,and the reason i believe the WWs are not responsible. The Fog/Mist/White Cold is the problem both cases the same anomaly shows up and some type of Wightification takes place.I'm not sure about touch because we haven't seen this we have seen the mist in both these cases.The real question is....What is the White Cold/mist/fog?

But doesn't Ygritte mention that they are always there waiting

They appear out of nothing but snow when Bran & party are struggling to get to the COTF entrance to the cave.

Three days of Snow had actually covered the Wights outside the cave.I think what might have arouse them was the gang walking on the Snow.There were no foot prints so no one had passed.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 - Not for me. I find Cersei & Theon to be extremely different characters although interestingly, the same root cause (abandonment) lies at the heart of both their pathologies however it manifests itself in markedly different ways. Theon pretends to be superior, Cersei is superior. Theon is a young man trying to make his father love him. Cersei on the other hand has become the superior person she no doubt once pretended to be.

2 - Not 100% certain what you mean by that. If you mean, has the writer demonstrated that the family you choose can be stronger than the one you are born to, then I would certainly agree.

3 - No, although the fact he may fit some of the parameters certainly says something interesting about the prophecy wouldn't you say?

4 - I assume you mean:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned.

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity

I think if you're a serious writer and you're not influenced, to some degree, by all the greats then you are most probably doing it wrong :)

1. Oh, I see great tragic similarities in the characters of Theon and Cersei. Different circumstances, certainly. But both are the instigators and architects of their own destruction... both are selfish to the point of deluding themselves about personal origins and likely outcomes... both perceive themselves as victimized by those around them - folks they've mistreated and disregarded in the past, but from whom they still expect some measure of gratitude. Both are driven by the need to prove themselves to fathers who won't accept them - and in their ambition, both succeed in undermining their Houses and alienating those who love them.

2. Mainly thinking about the meaning of family and kinslaying in the context of Theon's narrative, I guess. I reread BranVras' theory about one of the miller's sons being Theon's child - and just find that a rather in satisfying solution to the "Theon Kinslayer" question. It's possible, I guess... I just don't think it's necessary. For all intents and purposes Bran Stark (and thus Winterfell) is indeed dead, and Theon is responsible for that. Throughout ACOK and ADWD, he spends a great deal of mental / emotional energy rationalizing his betrayals to himself... occasionally attempting (feebly) to defend himself to others - but rereading his chapters, it's clear that he talks himself into his own feelings as he goes. He's deluded and confused about the meaning of "family," and he's self-centered to the point that he fails to recognize those closest to him. (Obvious illustration: Asha, who doesn't tell him who she is even once he starts groping her. Less obvious example: Ned Stark, who is adamantly against the killing of children - but who Theon betrays with the explanation that Ned had always been prepared to kill him if necessary for political ends.). Early in AGOT, Theon swears an oath to Catelyn - swearing on his loyalty to Ned Stark, who he says was "like a second father to me." And his status as Ned's ward is interpreted across the North as signifying his adoption as a "foster" (foster brother, foster child) - meaningful enough that he can give away the bride at (f)Arya's wedding, because he's "the nearest thing to living kin" she has left.

This is a lot of stream-of-consciousness here. Just thinking it out loud. But the fostering tradition, and the relationships it engenders between houses and families fits right into the horticultural analogy of grafting. Theon is as much "Stark," at the time of Robb's war, as Ned was "Arryn" at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Each was grafted into the fostering household at a young age, brought up by a man sworn to protect him.

3. Definitely speaks to the prophecy. I'm on board with the idea that the fulfillment of the prophecy, in hindsight, gets interpreted in different ways by different communities. I just see a lot of "salt and smoke" in Theon's character and in his role with respect to Winterfell.

4. I really meant Yeats' work more broadly. Celtic Twilight, for instance, is a collection of stories and Irish folk tales Yeats was told by others. But there are certainly plenty of poems that seem on point. I was just reading To A Child Dancing In The Wind:

Has no one said those daring

Kind eyes should be more learn'd?

Or warned you how despairing

The moths are when they are burned?

I could have warned you, but you are young,

So we speak a different tongue.

[Black Crow]

All well; I have an internet connection, so I'll be rejoining the discussion tomorrow and will be able to handle the changeover when it comes.

[wolfmaid7]

All well; I have an internet connection, so I'll be rejoining the discussion tomorrow and will be able to handle the changeover when it comes.

You didn't get my PM then? I volunteered if you weren't able to do it in time.

[Jojen]

That was an interesting read,i have a thread on the General Forum called "those who sing" we are looking at songs in a magical context.Both intuitive and worked.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110263-those-who-sing/

Have you read The Hall of the Mountain King by Judith Tarr? It's been a very very long time since I have, but if I remember correctly, the main character uses magic through song.

Also, there are harpists in the Riddle Master trilogy by Patricia McKillip who use magic as well, and I think the sorcerers in the Prince of Nothing books use both geometry and music in their magic.

It's really no surprise that bards were so respected in the way, way back--although GRRM doesn't seem to treat his "professional" or human ones very well (aside from the Mance). There's just something magical about a song.

[MaesterSam]

One of my on going theories is that the Andals were there for the Long Night, and earlier for the Pact, and since then their maesters have been trying to write their way out of any responsibility so that they can claim they weren't there, but the Reed's creed/oath hints that they were there when they said they "swear by bronze and iron". Bronze representing the First Men and Iron representing the Andals. I also think that is the true meaning behind, "the North Remembers". They remember the Andals were there even though the Andals claim otherwise. Furthermore, if the Andals were there when the Pact was broken, it would explain why the Singers/Children fled beyond the Wall and why the Nights Watch seems to have more worshippers of the Seven than the Old Gods.

Yes it does seem strange that so many southerners are in the Night's Watch. I guess it's partly b/c it's mostly criminals, and the south has more people and therefore more criminals to send to the Wall. But why do the southern kingdoms support the Watch at all? Why would the Andals help with this FM tradition, sending men to stand on a big wall and look for an enemy that hasn't been seen in 8,000 years, and that they themselves have never encountered?

However, in the war with the Andals, the FM fought on the side of the Children- so if the WW were controlled by the Children why were they killing FM?

[TheButcherCrow]

1. Oh, I see great tragic similarities in the characters of Theon and Cersei. Different circumstances, certainly. But both are the instigators and architects of their own destruction... both are selfish to the point of deluding themselves about personal origins and likely outcomes... both perceive themselves as victimized by those around them - folks they've mistreated and disregarded in the past, but from whom they still expect some measure of gratitude. Both are driven by the need to prove themselves to fathers who won't accept them - and in their ambition, both succeed in undermining their Houses and alienating those who love them.

2. Mainly thinking about the meaning of family and kinslaying in the context of Theon's narrative, I guess. I reread BranVras' theory about one of the miller's sons being Theon's child - and just find that a rather in satisfying solution to the "Theon Kinslayer" question. It's possible, I guess... I just don't think it's necessary. For all intents and purposes Bran Stark (and thus Winterfell) is indeed dead, and Theon is responsible for that. Throughout ACOK and ADWD, he spends a great deal of mental / emotional energy rationalizing his betrayals to himself... occasionally attempting (feebly) to defend himself to others - but rereading his chapters, it's clear that he talks himself into his own feelings as he goes. He's deluded and confused about the meaning of "family," and he's self-centered to the point that he fails to recognize those closest to him. (Obvious illustration: Asha, who doesn't tell him who she is even once he starts groping her. Less obvious example: Ned Stark, who is adamantly against the killing of children - but who Theon betrays with the explanation that Ned had always been prepared to kill him if necessary for political ends.). Early in AGOT, Theon swears an oath to Catelyn - swearing on his loyalty to Ned Stark, who he says was "like a second father to me." And his status as Ned's ward is interpreted across the North as signifying his adoption as a "foster" (foster brother, foster child) - meaningful enough that he can give away the bride at (f)Arya's wedding, because he's "the nearest thing to living kin" she has left.

This is a lot of stream-of-consciousness here. Just thinking it out loud. But the fostering tradition, and the relationships it engenders between houses and families fits right into the horticultural analogy of grafting. Theon is as much "Stark," at the time of Robb's war, as Ned was "Arryn" at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Each was grafted into the fostering household at a young age, brought up by a man sworn to protect him.

3. Definitely speaks to the prophecy. I'm on board with the idea that the fulfillment of the prophecy, in hindsight, gets interpreted in different ways by different communities. I just see a lot of "salt and smoke" in Theon's character and in his role with respect to Winterfell.

4. I really meant Yeats' work more broadly. Celtic Twilight, for instance, is a collection of stories and Irish folk tales Yeats was told by others. But there are certainly plenty of poems that seem on point. I was just reading To A Child Dancing In The Wind:

Has no one said those daring

Kind eyes should be more learn'd?

Or warned you how despairing

The moths are when they are burned?

I could have warned you, but you are young,

So we speak a different tongue.

1 - Well reasoned and I would agree with it entirely except for the assertion that "Both are driven by the need to prove themselves to fathers who won't accept them". For Theon this is totally true but for Cersei, her driving force is completely self-centred. She may have once been as Theon is but she has long since accepted the fact that her father will never love her like a son and she has completely given into her own selfish desires and insecurities creating a pathology very different to Theon. Cersei would not have become Reek, she would die first, for sure.

2 - Again, that is a fine analysis of Theon. I think the turn to Reek shows a step forward for Theon to be honest. His psyche basically murdered Theon, shows a sense of guilt maybe?

3 - :cheers:

4 - Yeats' work is extremely metaphysical in nature (pun not intended) so in being about the "big themes" you will find it can be transposed on top of any work that speaks to the same things. I could be wrong, maybe GRRM is a total Yeats fanboy but for me, Yeats' work is so transcendent, almost a description of universal truths, that it will naturally be found in many places.

[Phillip Frye]

However, in the war with the Andals, the FM fought on the side of the Children- so if the WW were controlled by the Children why were they killing FM?

I doubt that the First Men sided with the Children of the Forest against the Andals. They probably betrayed the Children of the Forest, which is why the Children no longer live south of the Wall.

One heretical theory holds that the betrayal of the Night's King by his brother, the Stark in Winterfell, resulted in the Andals being allowed into the North to man the Wall and drive out the Children of the Forest.

[Phillip Frye]

There were wights under the snow. They only "wake up" after dark and it has to be cold. The question is, why were they near the entrance to the cave?

What I find interesting about the wights is whenever they are sent to a location, they just drop--as if dead--instead of milling around. Othor and Jafer probably did the same thing. It looks as if unless the wights have some purpose that requires movement, they just drop in one spot.

[TheButcherCrow]

One of my on going theories is that the Andals were there for the Long Night, and earlier for the Pact, and since then their maesters have been trying to write their way out of any responsibility so that they can claim they weren't there, but the Reed's creed/oath hints that they were there when they said they "swear by bronze and iron". Bronze representing the First Men and Iron representing the Andals. I also think that is the true meaning behind, "the North Remembers". They remember the Andals were there even though the Andals claim otherwise. Furthermore, if the Andals were there when the Pact was broken, it would explain why the Singers/Children fled beyond the Wall and why the Nights Watch seems to have more worshippers of the Seven than the Old Gods.

I just read this, brilliant, love it. If we're looking for suspects, House Arryn fits quite nicely I think. It also explains why The Citadel & the "Andal Capital" of Oldtown are on the wrong side of Westeros, if House Arryn were among the first Andals to arrive then surely those institutions should be in The Vale? Look at a map!! They should be in The Vale. Then you've got the weirwood moondoor and the flipping weirwood throne, that be some singer ish or I'll be a monkey's uncle.

[addicted to snow]

2. Mainly thinking about the meaning of family and kinslaying in the context of Theon's narrative, I guess. I reread BranVras' theory about one of the miller's sons being Theon's child - and just find that a rather in satisfying solution to the "Theon Kinslayer" question. It's possible, I guess... I just don't think it's necessary. For all intents and purposes Bran Stark (and thus Winterfell) is indeed dead, and Theon is responsible for that. Throughout ACOK and ADWD, he spends a great deal of mental / emotional energy rationalizing his betrayals to himself... occasionally attempting (feebly) to defend himself to others - but rereading his chapters, it's clear that he talks himself into his own feelings as he goes. He's deluded and confused about the meaning of "family," and he's self-centered to the point that he fails to recognize those closest to him. (Obvious illustration: Asha, who doesn't tell him who she is even once he starts groping her. Less obvious example: Ned Stark, who is adamantly against the killing of children - but who Theon betrays with the explanation that Ned had always been prepared to kill him if necessary for political ends.). Early in AGOT, Theon swears an oath to Catelyn - swearing on his loyalty to Ned Stark, who he says was "like a second father to me." And his status as Ned's ward is interpreted across the North as signifying his adoption as a "foster" (foster brother, foster child) - meaningful enough that he can give away the bride at (f)Arya's wedding, because he's "the nearest thing to living kin" she has left.

This is a lot of stream-of-consciousness here. Just thinking it out loud. But the fostering tradition, and the relationships it engenders between houses and families fits right into the horticultural analogy of grafting. Theon is as much "Stark," at the time of Robb's war, as Ned was "Arryn" at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Each was grafted into the fostering household at a young age, brought up by a man sworn to protect him.

Theon spends a great deal of mental / emotional energy rationalizing his actions for the sole benefit of the reader. GRRM wants the reader to understand why Theon made the decisions that he did, to show that Theon is not a bad person - arrogant, unlikeable, insecure, resentful, etc, etc, yes; but despite his numerous character flaws, he was not & is not a bad person… No doubt GRRM wants the reader to understand this because Theon will eventually find redemption.

[ladyinblack]

One of my on going theories is that the Andals were there for the Long Night, and earlier for the Pact, and since then their maesters have been trying to write their way out of any responsibility so that they can claim they weren't there, but the Reed's creed/oath hints that they were there when they said they "swear by bronze and iron". Bronze representing the First Men and Iron representing the Andals. I also think that is the true meaning behind, "the North Remembers". They remember the Andals were there even though the Andals claim otherwise. Furthermore, if the Andals were there when the Pact was broken, it would explain why the Singers/Children fled beyond the Wall and why the Nights Watch seems to have more worshippers of the Seven than the Old Gods.

The Rhoynar cursed the dragonlords with greyscale, which in itself is a type of imprisonment trapping the dragonlords inside stone bodies. Wightification is a curse also, trapping the souls in the bones, and if you're looking to point a finger at anyone for the curse, look no further than the Singers/Children. They are the ones that called down their Hammer of Waters, just as Prince Garin of the Rhoynar called down their water curse. It's the combination of the water with fire and water with ice that caused the greyscale and wights, and both diseases or curse can be spread via touch or mist. In the north the cold mist and in the east the fog mist.[/quote

Yes Yes. I agree

Nice new information from the new book . Enhances Tryion's travelouge in ADWD ]

[redrose]

Has it ever been discussed as to why Hodor was too scared to go down to the Winterfell crypts in A game of thrones but had no problem going down at the end of a clash of kings?If anybody could point me in the right direction with a link it would be much appreciated. I was cruising through the SSM links and it was a question that GRRM answered in a rather cryptic manner( as usual).

[Black Crow]

To draw a real world comparison when performing elemental magic there are correspondents that go together and others that don't. Air and Fire are good and Earth and water are good. Creation was said to occur using Fire and Ice they are what is called "primodial Elements" and should not be used together........at all. GRRM has used Elemental magic in the form of invoking "the quarters" so i don't see why he can't engage in the others.

So far as what GRRM is doing I think its worth remembering what we're discussed about the Reeds' oath; and how earth and water are linked.

The CotF call themselves those who sing the song of the earth but not only are earth and water linked in the oath, but in talking of the nature of the old gods, streams are specifically mentioned as well as rocks and trees. I'd therefore suggest that when they speak of singing the songs of the earth they are speaking of natural magic generally and we therefore don't need to go distinguishing certain magic as "water" magic.

Then, again as we've discussed before, the bronze and iron element of the oath is men.

Ice and Fire, as I understand what you've said, each have their proper place but ultimately are destructive. In this case perhaps the Singers, finding themselves unable to prevail over Men called upon Ice and so upset the balance...

[Urrax2]

Apologies for an irrelevant side trivia question: I can't figure why the last show episode was called "Mockingbird." Guess I'm just dense, but can somebody tell me why?

[Black Crow]

Yes it does seem strange that so many southerners are in the Night's Watch. I guess it's partly b/c it's mostly criminals, and the south has more people and therefore more criminals to send to the Wall. But why do the southern kingdoms support the Watch at all? Why would the Andals help with this FM tradition, sending men to stand on a big wall and look for an enemy that hasn't been seen in 8,000 years, and that they themselves have never encountered?

However, in the war with the Andals, the FM fought on the side of the Children- so if the WW were controlled by the Children why were they killing FM?

Well that's one of the questions which has exercised us deeply on heresy. If we accept the traditional version of events the North remained independent of the rest of Westeros by force of arms until Aegon the Conqueror tooled up. Theoretically its possible that Andal prisoners of War were despatched north to the Wall but both that and allowing "pilgrims" to pass through in any appreciable numbers seems rather unlikely.

Further complicating matters is the ruinous state of Moat Caillin. Whether or not you believe Catelyn when she notes that the wooden keep rotted away 1,000 years ago, the fact of the matter is that its condition isn't consistent with its being actively used just 300 years ago.

So both suggest that there was a lasting peace with the Andals long before Aegon imposed his Pax Targaryana

How long before is of course the crucial question, and there is a theory that the story of the Nights King is really about how the Starks of Winterfell broke the Pact by allowing the Andals to chase the Singers beyond the Wall in return for peace.

[Black Crow]

Apologies for an irrelevant side trivia question: I can't figure why the last show episode was called "Mockingbird." Guess I'm just dense, but can somebody tell me why?

Petyr Baelish

[Urrax2]

Petyr Baelish

Sorry, still don't get it.

[Black Crow]

He very pointedly wears a mockingbird as his sigil