Hated Fantasy Cliches

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think even a cliche storm can be fun reading if it's written well.

And as for "Mary Sues," I love them, because I like awesome women, and I think "Mary Sue" is a slur, not a valid descriptor.

The fantasy cliche I do hate is names full of apostrophes. Sticking a random apostrophe in a name does not automatically make it ex'otic and fan'tast'ic, nine times out of ten it looks silly, IMO.

[Northernmonkey]

Prophecies about "chosen ones". I don't mind if they're played around, or the story has no "chosen one" and the protagonist just does this big mission because he/she is the only one who will do it, nobody else will, and in this character's heart they feel something must be done.

I agree about this one. I think that's why all the Azor Azai stuff I find completely boring - it is a bit of a cliche.

Although I like to to think that GRRM will make it so there isn't an actual Azor Azai and the prophecy is just a plot point, something to motivate characters like Rhaegar, Melisandre, Moqorro etc.

[SeanF]

I don't mind pure heroes, "chosen ones", and vile villains if they're well-written.

My pet hates are sickeningly cute little animals; villains who are cardboard cut-outs; gratuitous pornography, and gratuitous torture.

[joluoto2]

fire balls not belonging to House Ball.

[Crowford]

Listing cliches I dislike could fill pages, but I want to point one thing out that ASoIaF is unfortunately guilty of:

Treating millenia the way real history treats centuries, at best.

Because really, is it necessary that every damn thing is 5000 years old? Sure, unreliable history and all, but even if the Andal invasion was only 2000 years ago (or even only 1000), and the events in the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes happened just shortly before that, GRRM still has apparently no sense of time scale. Not only seems there to be a complete technological stasis, which could be explained, though only barely, the real jarring thing is that apparently many of the Houses currently ruling Westeros were around at least 2000 years ago (before the Andals came), and reputedly several millenia before that. Even with the explanation that earlier in their history, it was treated more as a rank than as a dynasty, i.e. a King of Winter was called Stark even if he wasn't blood related to his predecessor, it's still a ridiculous number of generations that this system apparently endured over.

[Jankmaster]

I don't think that there really are big cliches just tropes. They can be over or misused. If something is well written than it can do pure good vs pure evil. It is the skill of the writer that makes a good story not the use of certain tropes or themes. I for one really like more "cliche" elements as seem to be ones that have endured throughout the centuries in tales like Beowolf and the Oddessy. Of course those heroes had major flaws as well which gave them grief and at times led to their death, but the idea of monsters, noble heroes, and the Heros Journey are timeless and should not be dismissed out of hand.

It's not darkness or grittiness or grey morality that makes a story better or more complex, it's the man with a computer or a pen who makes it work.

[Shadow Tower]

Listing cliches I dislike could fill pages, but I want to point one thing out that ASoIaF is unfortunately guilty of:

Treating millenia the way real history treats centuries, at best.

Because really, is it necessary that every damn thing is 5000 years old? Sure, unreliable history and all, but even if the Andal invasion was only 2000 years ago (or even only 1000), and the events in the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes happened just shortly before that, GRRM still has apparently no sense of time scale. Not only seems there to be a complete technological stasis, which could be explained, though only barely, the real jarring thing is that apparently many of the Houses currently ruling Westeros were around at least 2000 years ago (before the Andals came), and reputedly several millenia before that. Even with the explanation that earlier in their history, it was treated more as a rank than as a dynasty, i.e. a King of Winter was called Stark even if he wasn't blood related to his predecessor, it's still a ridiculous number of generations that this system apparently endured over.

This. Spot on.

[Jo498]

I don't really mind, but in ASoIaF there is clearly a clash between the comparably short timescale of 300 years since the Targaryen invasion and the supposedly 5000 or 8000 years before. 300 years is between William the Conqueror and the 100 years war, this is almost too short for dragons dying out, and the Doom of Valyria (Atlantis) was only a century or so before that). But several millenia of virtual stasis before that is indeed implausible.

[Michael Herman]

Listing cliches I dislike could fill pages, but I want to point one thing out that ASoIaF is unfortunately guilty of:

Treating millenia the way real history treats centuries, at best.

Because really, is it necessary that every damn thing is 5000 years old? Sure, unreliable history and all, but even if the Andal invasion was only 2000 years ago (or even only 1000), and the events in the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes happened just shortly before that, GRRM still has apparently no sense of time scale. Not only seems there to be a complete technological stasis, which could be explained, though only barely, the real jarring thing is that apparently many of the Houses currently ruling Westeros were around at least 2000 years ago (before the Andals came), and reputedly several millenia before that. Even with the explanation that earlier in their history, it was treated more as a rank than as a dynasty, i.e. a King of Winter was called Stark even if he wasn't blood related to his predecessor, it's still a ridiculous number of generations that this system apparently endured over.

Couldn't have put it better myself, is it really necessary for the Valyrian Freehold to go on for 3-4 times as long as the Byzantine Empire. The Andal invasion could be roughly 1,000 years ago with the war for dawn another 1,000 years before that. This would still show the extreme age of the world (the Starks would have gone on for longer than the Zhou Dynasty), but not make it totally implausible if we assume that gunpowder can't exist and push forward technology.

[Lion of the West]

That being a good person morally automatically makes you great at everything else. It's simply not true and the reality is much more complicated.

One of the reasons I like asoiaf is that this general cliche isn't present.

I wouldn't mind if Jon becomes King at all. He wasn't great at the start and has shown real growth as a character I think through his interactions with other political and spiritual leaders. I don't think it's cliche, far more so would be if Daenerys wins in the end.

I so agree with this and I hate it so very, very, very much.

[Rusted Iron Hinge]

I agree about this one. I think that's why all the Azor Azai stuff I find completely boring - it is a bit of a cliche.

Although I like to to think that GRRM will make it so there isn't an actual Azor Azai and the prophecy is just a plot point, something to motivate characters like Rhaegar, Melisandre, Moqorro etc.

I have confidence that GRRM will leave Azor Ahai intentionally vague. Melisandre could have seen Jon in the flames because he will lead her to AA, not because he is Azor Ahai. If I recall correctly, this is why she thought Stannis was AA).

What I'm more worried about is the Valonqar prohecy. It was not at all needed for Cersei's motivations, and it adds an "inevitability" to her story arc. I am tired of everything being "inevitable" and "destiny" in fiction.

[species5618w]

Some guy found an artifact with a great evil mind trapped in, he then overcomes the mind and absorbs all his power/knowledge. I am worried that Brandon would absorb BloodRaven that way.

Also thousands of years of technology stagnation. For once, I want to see that the Orcs came back and the helicopter gunships mauled them down.

[Heidrun]

Even though I loved "girl becomes warrior" stories when I was younger, it's getting to the point where it's expected that authors include warrior maidens and it's BAD and ANTI-FEMINIST if they don't. Honestly, a character like Sansa or Kayli from Firewalk who develops and becomes strong while still being female seems hard to find.

All "black" villains. Even Hitler liked dogs.

Others have mentioned that the orphan always ends up becoming king/ruler/empress/whatever. It's fine but, again, it's been so overdone that it's just becoming irritating and predictable. I feel like the only person on here who wants Jon Snow's mom to be some milkmaid or camp follower. I feel that Jon rising to great heights in SPITE of his bastard lineage rather than BECAUSE OF him being a Secret Targ would make for a better story arc

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

The country lad whose father digs out a magical sword from the back of the wardrobe and gives it to him (usually just in time for a fight with bandits / orcs / evil ruler's stormtroopers).

Then he goes on to be savior of the realm wielding Evilbasher.

Yes

I like Wheel of Time (well, parts of it at least) but this was one of the multiple lame cliches in it.

[The Fresh PtwP]

The big strong slow guy gets old. I always like to assume they mean slow as in footwork (which makes more sense). Half the scrawny character I have my doubts about lifting an actual sword let alone making "steel sing" or something like that. Yet the big guys who should be able to swing a sword the fastest/easiest, (more muscle) are always "slow".

[RoamingRonin]

Complicated names. Apostrophes and accent marks are the devil. Example: Prince Sal'vikcar Mun'Cod.

Maps.

Songs. What's the tune? Am I singing it right? I can't follow this.

Lame references to past events. It takes a good writer to do this well otherwise it just comes off as dumb ("Your father and I fought in the Anklor Wars years ago. Your dad killed Prince Sal'vikcar Mun'Cod himself!")

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

The big strong slow guy gets old. I always like to assume they mean slow as in footwork (which makes more sense). Half the scrawny character I have my doubts about lifting an actual sword let alone making "steel sing" or something like that. Yet the big guys who should be able to swing a sword the fastest/easiest, (more muscle) are always "slow".

A one handed sword weighs about as much as a baseball bat, while a two hander should be somewhere between half again and twice as heavy. You don't need to be very strong to swing either of them around quickly, in other words.

I'm not saying that big guys have to be slow though.

As for annoying cliches I agree with the poster talking about the incredibly long time spans of everything. Though I feel that in GRRM's case (and many others) it seems to be about misunderstanding or not thinking through the scale of many things in general, not just time. Martin for example admitted that he made the Wall too high after seeing how it looked in the TV series (where it is about half as high as it is in the book) but extremely large armies is also a common cliche in fantasy. That doesn't have to be bad in itself at all, but I think a lot of the time one really gets the impression that the author doesn't understand the size of what he has written. Here is an example of how large an army of about 15 000 men, none of them even being mounted, would actually look like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZX93zR4xUA (Ignore the video description)

that is, a small scouting force in a lot of fantasy settings...

[Angmar]

-The tomboys vs the girly girls. We have even a bit of that at the start of the series. It's usually a trope when two female characters (sisters, or friends) meet up and are so different in attitude and likes that they constantly clash because of it.

-Turning original fairy tales into these "dark and edgy" retelling movies. I know fairy tales in general have dark origins, but these new movies ala Alice in Wonderland, Snow white and the Huntsman, Hansel and Gretel...It's just typical generic fantasy cliches all together, only instead of being fluffy and for kids it thinks with being dark it can attract to adults.

-Manic Pixie Dream Girls/romances with them.

-The couple who spends all their time bitching at one another and for some reason that must mean they're in love. Which is why I don't really like much Arya and Gendry or Brienne and Jaime.

-Stories where characters leave their boring uninteresting lives and get sucked into magical fantasy worlds and have a life changing adventure, only for at the end of the story return back to their unhappy lives.

[The Fresh PtwP]

A one handed sword weighs about as much as a baseball bat, while a two hander should be somewhere between half again and twice as heavy. You don't need to be very strong to swing either of them around quickly, in other words.

I'm not saying that big guys have to be slow though.

As for annoying cliches I agree with the poster talking about the incredibly long time spans of everything. Though I feel that in GRRM's case (and many others) it seems to be about misunderstanding or not thinking through the scale of many things in general, not just time. Martin for example admitted that he made the Wall too high after seeing how it looked in the TV series (where it is about half as high as it is in the book) but extremely large armies is also a common cliche in fantasy. That doesn't have to be bad in itself at all, but I think a lot of the time one really gets the impression that the author doesn't understand the size of what he has written. Here is an example of how large an army of about 15 000 men, none of them even being mounted, would actually look like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZX93zR4xUA (Ignore the video description)

that is, a small scouting force in a lot of fantasy settings...

No. They're made of steel they, are in no way as light as a wooden or even aluminum baseball bat. My father got me a medieval dagger once when we were in the UK. A dagger, I was 13 and have always been big and I needed two hands to swing it. a dagger. That was when i started to question some of the movie and book BS that's shipped out there. To include the "Female-Fu" trope.

My point being some of the "fast" characters lack the necessary physical aptitude to be "fast". Because yes you do have to be strong to swing a sword around quickly and you have to be incredibly strong to swing around a two-hander.

[Jasta11]

-Incredibly long timespans. Martin is very guilty of this; his noble Houses and dynasties last like 10 times longer than real life ones. Even if you take for granted that the 8000 years thing is a fabrication, we can be sure that the Starks have existed for a few thousands, thanks to the crypt, and that the First Men were around also a long time, and many other Great Houses trace their lineage really, really long ago. Yet over the course of this story (which, if we're generous, extends 20 years if you include Robert's Rebellion), 4 Great Houses are down to few members and thus are in danger of being wiped out (Starks, Targaryen, Baratheons and Arryns), two were displaced (Starks and Targaryens) and among the rest, only the Tyrells and Martells look to be in good shape once the dust settles, and even then. But in the thousands of years before that, the ruling Houses basically never changed apart from those in the Iron Islands and the Gardener/Tyrell switcheroo? And even minor Houses can trace hundreds, if not thousands of years of lineage? And they've all been feudal overlords for all that timespan? Yeah, that's really exaggerated.

For reference: in 2000 years we went from the Roman Empire to the world we have today. 2000 years before that large scale civilizations barely even existed. We went through the entire history of humanity, or close to it, while Westeros remained a feudal monarchy ruled by the exact same Houses.

-Prophecies: Also a thing in Westeros. To be fair, we don't know the full story yet, but the story still has a boatload of prophecies about Chosen Ones and whatnot, and it gets old really fast. I like stuff like Patchface's ramblings, because it's prophecy and foreshadowing done in a subtle way. But prophecy dumps like the House of the Undying are really a bit much, to say nothing of Edgy!Disney shit like Maggie the Frog.

-Jon. Just, Jon. Before he becomes Lord Commander, his story reads ticks most checkboxes for the Standard Fantasy Protagonist. And now it seems he also is the Hidden Heir To The Realm as well as the Chosen One Of Destiny That Will Save Us All And Was Promised To Smell Good or somesuch.

-Being of bloodline X makes you special and gives you magic powers: In full force. Targaryens are the worst, but the Starks are also guilty. Still played with in that said special powers are no match for ruthless cunning or a good old fashioned warhammer to the chest, so it's not a big deal.

Apart from that, Martin avoids most cliches and it's a part of what makes him a great writer. But while he denounces some cliches (good guy = good ruler foremost among them), he also plays others very, very straight indeed.