Jon would have done much better than Robb

[JoeyBanana]

No, he wouldn't.

While Jon wasn't actually that bad as LC of the Night's Watch, he still lacks the charisma and military genius of Robb. But what they share is their weak diplomatic skills, a trait quite common amongst Ned's children, which is ultimately their demise. They both tried too hard to be The Ned and failed to see that their father wasn't the perfect man. Although it's only natural for young men to admire and emulate a father like Eddard.

[PirateVergo]

he still lacks the charisma and military genius of Robb.

Jon is the one who has charisma not Robb.

Earn respect from Stannis,Mance,Mormont.

Being the son Ned Stark =/= charisma.

As for the military part, Robb had a lot of help was still stupid enough to not hell what he planned to do to Edmure which ended pretty bad for both of them.

[JoeyBanana]

Jon is the one who has charisma not Robb.

Earn respect from Stannis,Mance,Mormont.

Being the son Ned Stark =/= charisma.

As for the military part, Robb had a lot of help was still stupid enough to not hell what he planned to do to Edmure which ended pretty bad for both of them.

No, Jon is dry and does not inspire people. That's the fucking point of Jon Snow, that he has to earn his respect, while Robb gets it simply by being charismatic. Mance does not respect Jon, not in the books. They're still capable leaders, just in a different way, that's all.

Edmure was ordered to defend Riverrun and ignored that very order to get some of the glory. You don't do that as a soldier or commander as Blackfish pointed out quite clearly. Hell, Cat even tried to warn him. I like Edmure but it was his fault.

[LordQorgyle]

How could a charismatic leader be stabbed to death by his subbordinates?If Jon was charismatic they would have followed him to WF

[PirateVergo]

while Robb gets it simply by being Ned's son.

Fixed that for you.

that he has to earn his respect,

He earn his respect by being charismatic.

Mance does not respect Jon, not in the books

He does not respect him, but Jon won Mance's trust at the start.

They're still capable leaders, just in a different way, that's all

Robb is a good military commander, not a good leader.

Edmure was ordered to defend Riverrun and ignored that very order to get some of the glory. You don't do that as a soldier or commander as Blackfish pointed out quite clearly. Hell, Cat even tried to warn him. I like Edmure but it was his fault.

No just no, you can't blame Edmure because he did a mistake when he had absolutely no idea of what Robb's planned, he is not a mind reader, this is Robb's fault and blaming Edmure make absolutely no sense.

How could a charismatic leader be stabbed to death by his subbordinates?

That's a terrible argument, as I said before many charismatic leaders were killed by their own subbordinates, Julius Caesar for example.

[IRON BANK]

Jon would have made mistakes. we have to remember Jon at the beginning of the series is not the seasoned person he is at present.

[JoeyBanana]

Fixed that for you.

He earn his respect by being charismatic.

He does not respect him, but Jon won Mance's trust at the start.

Jon gets respect from Joer, Aemon, Sam, Stannis, Mel, Tormund because he showed his capability (as a leader and soldier) through actions and not by having an inspiring, likeable personality. How do you not understand this?

Mance never trusted Jon and let him live because he gave a smart answer. The whole situation was really awkward, mostly due to Jon being clumsy and anything but charming. A charismatic person would have tried to give a BS speech (about Craster's sons, the true enemy, wildlings being humans, Mance being great) and died.

Robb is a good military commander, not a good leader.

It's called a Zweihander, not a two-handed sword.

No just no, you can't blame Edmure because he did a mistake when he had absolutely no idea of what Robb's planned, he is not a mind reader, this is Robb's fault and blaming Edmure make absolutely no sense.

Well, then let's blame Robb for not foreseeing that Edmure will ignore his orders, right?

Because that make so much more sense.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Robb is vastly overrated by the fanbase.

Jon is clearly superior to him in virtually every aspect.

Robb needed to be guided by his mom when deciding on things as fundamental as which of his lords should command his vanguard etc.

Jon at age 16, in contrast, is giving Stannis strategic advice, pointing out Stannis's strategic mistakes like wanting to march on the Dreadfort with 1500 Southron jackanapes, across 300 miles of hostile Umber territory.

Jon the Black Wolf is in a different league to Robb the Young Wolf.

[LordStoneheart]

Robb is vastly underrated in the post above.

Jon at the time of LC was not the Jon Robb would have wanted or needed during his campaign. Jon was a rather spoiled and entitled brat during his first few weeks at the Wall. Robb gained much more battle experience at the time of his death than Jon gained up until now. Jon did well during the Battle of Castle Black, but that is one central location. Robb moved his forces from the North all around the Riverlands and Westerlands. He may have needed his mother, but it's not like Jon has needed nobody. Take away those that have guided him (Donal Noye, Jeor, Aemon among others) and he would not be the person he is at the present of the story.

Really, we're just finding ways to undercut both characters by comparing them. They both had respect for each other. They both loved each other, and each had their strong suits. I doubt either would've succeeded in each other's places.

[David Selig]

Robb is vastly overrated by the fanbase.

Jon is clearly superior to him in virtually every aspect.

Robb needed to be guided by his mom when deciding on things as fundamental as which of his lords should command his vanguard etc.

Jon at age 16, in contrast, is giving Stannis strategic advice, pointing out Stannis's strategic mistakes like wanting to march on the Dreadfort with 1500 Southron jackanapes, across 300 miles of hostile Umber territory.

Jon the Black Wolf is in a different league to Robb the Young Wolf.

How many major battles have Jon won again?

And Jon giving Stannis strategic advice is one of the dumbest scenes in the books. As if an experienced commander like Stannis would need a 16 year old kid to point out obvious things to him.

Besides, Jon later on came up with an even dumber plan before he was assassinated. "Let's march 500 miles through terrible weather instead of forcing the enemy to do it".

Then there is the Hardhome plan, which lead to a predictable disaster and Jon intended to make it worse before he was assassinated.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I think you're wrong OP for one very important reason, Jon would have fallen into Tywin's trap the same as Robb. We already saw that Jon is just as susceptible to his base-instincts as any other man, and Ygritte wasn't even supposed to be that cute. He would have fallen hook, line, and sinker for Jayne Westerling same as Robb, and what is Jon's greatest fear? Fathering a bastard, so he would have been just as willing to break his oath to Walder Frey in order to protect the girl's honor.

[PirateVergo]

And Jon giving Stannis strategic advice is one of the dumbest scenes in the books. As if an experienced commander like Stannis would need a 16 year old kid to point out obvious things to him.

And Robb being unbeatale at the age of 16 is also dumb as hell.

Same goes for many things in ASOIAF, still you have the right to not like it but it happened Jon actually gave Stannis strategic advice and it should be recognized as an impressive feat.

Jon gets respect from Joer, Aemon, Sam, Stannis, Mel, Tormund because he showed his capability (as a leader and soldier) through actions and not by having an inspiring, likeable personality. How do you not understand this?

I understand this and in my opinion that's charisma, Jon had neither the most impressive battle performances nor the smartest decisions, and still he managed to get respect from them.

The fact that the wildlings wants to follow him and he talk about going to Winterfell is another evidence of his natural charisma.

Mance never trusted Jon and let him live because he gave a smart answer. The whole situation was really awkward, mostly due to Jon being clumsy and anything but charming. A charismatic person would have tried to give a BS speech (about Craster's sons, the true enemy, wildlings being humans, Mance being great) and died.

Being charismatic doesn't

Well, then let's blame Robb for not foreseeing that Edmure will ignore his orders, right?

Let's blame Robb for giving orders that seem stupid for someone in Edmure's position;

You need to be either a coward or an extremely straight man to not do what Edmure did.

[TheHouseHB]

Jon also would have stopped Joffrey killing Ned because Jon is well Jon

[COYStars]

Jon would have made mistakes. we have to remember Jon at the beginning of the series is not the seasoned person he is at present.

This.

imho the critical point of Jon's story arc to date is that he is being groomed for leadership. He's getting a whole load of hands on experience which he is benefiting from, and which the majority of leadership characters lack (how much do the Lannisters know about the common people, for example? Their distance and aloofness has been their undoing). At a time when Westeros is showing a massive disconnect between the populace and the warring families fighting the Game of Thrones, with the needs of the nation (the threat from the Others for example) being disregarded for petty squabbles, Jon is being educated by the highest (Kings, lords, leaders) and the lowest (criminals and wildings) alike. Robb would have benefited from that too but, because of who he was, it was never an option.

I believe that, at the time, Jon would have been hopeless in Robb's place, and would have done no better (and almost certainly worse - unlike Robb, he lacked the confidence or authority to lead). Once he completes his training, though, is a different circumstance entirely.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Also remember than Robb has as his sub-commanders an assortment of the following:

Greatjon Umber

Rickard Karstark

Blackfish Tully

Jason Mallister

Maege Mormont

and a host of other great battle leaders, supported by their own Captains of Guard, landed Knights and champion warriors. The cream of the North and the Riverlands, riding at his command.

He only needs to send the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark into the Westerlands, and their hardened battle experience does the rest as they ravage and sack the shit out of the West.

Jon, in contrast, has the scum of the earth to work with. Truly, the absolute scum of the earth. It is surprising he gets anything done at all.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Jon might be ready now, but he wouldn't have been ready when Robb had to be. He has had an interesting character arc from the beginning of AGOT.

Robb's excellence as a military strategist cannot be denied. Had Edmure not ruined his biggest play, Robb may have practically won the war on the battlefield and Walder Frey would never have had the guts to go through with RW.

I don't agree with those saying Jon would have fallen for Jeyne because of the Ygritte experience. He loved Ygritte but relenting and having sex with her came after a long period of considerable unease over it, despite growing questions amongst the wildlings. He also rejected the chance to be Lord of Winterfell with Val as his lady wife.

[COYStars]

Jon might be ready now, but he wouldn't have been ready when Robb had to be. He has had an interesting character arc from the beginning of AGOT.

Robb's excellence as a military strategist cannot be denied. Had Edmure not ruined his biggest play, Robb may have practically won the war on the battlefield and Walder Frey would never have had the guts to go through with RW.

I don't agree with those saying Jon would have fallen for Jeyne because of the Ygritte experience. He loved Ygritte but relenting and having sex with her came after a long period of considerable unease over it, despite growing questions amongst the wildlings. He also rejected the chance to be Lord of Winterfell with Val as his lady wife.

Was that not because of his vows, though? Put him in Robb's position and he wouldn't have had to take the vows of the Night's Watch.

[LordStoneheart]

Here's an experiment, and I urge you to be objective.

Switch them. At the moment of Ned's imprisonment, switch them. Keep all circumstances the same, but switch them.

So Robb is at the Wall, Jon calls the Northern banners...

First of all, are the other Lords going to listen to a bastard son of Eddard? They gave enough flack to the true born Robb. Is Jon so charismatic that he will win them over despite being a Snow? I don't think any fan of Jon could say this with certainty. Furthermore, would Catelyn actually turn and help Jon? I'd like to think so because Eddard was on the line but how helpful would she be, and would Jon even accept the help? furthermore, would they have the Freys at this point since Catelyn doesn't have Robb to offer, but a bastard son of the North, assuming Catelyn stays behind?

Comparing the two just doesn't work right.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Was that not because of his vows, though? Put him in Robb's position and he wouldn't have had to take the vows of the Night's Watch.

Yes, but Robb had his Frey deal to take into account. I'd be willing to bet that Jon would have stayed true to the Frey deal.

Also, I think his falling for Ygritte suggests that Jon's taste in women was somewhat different to Robb's.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Frankly, I have long held great suspicions about the degree to which Robb was personally responsible for the grand strategic victories achieved by the Northmen in the Riverlands and the West.

Note that we are never actually shown the process of decisionmaking behind these military victories. Mostly, they are shown to us from the point of view of the Lannisters, who suffered the defeats seemingly out of the blue.

And it seems incredibly unlikely that a 15-year old boy who needed his mother to tell him which of his bannerlords should lead the vanguard of his army, suddenly jumped in only a few months to coming up with brilliant plans to ambush Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood, slip past the Golden Tooth into the West, slay Stafford's host and come up with the idea to draw Tywin back to the West with the purpose of trapping him there.

I think we are never shown the war councils behind these decisions for a reason. And that reason is that it would simply not come across as believable that the raw boy who needed his mother to make his military decisions for him in Game of Thrones, would suddenly become Alexander the Great by the time of A Clash of Kings.

In short, I think Robb was more of a figurehead, with the likes of the Blackfish, the Greatjon, Maege Mormont and other experienced battle lords coming up with his most brilliant strategic moves. Granted, his skill probably lay in deciding which of the various options to pursue, but he simply does not come across as the type of battle strategist who came up with these plans himself.

Jon, in contrast, appears to be exactly that genius in the making. The one who is the strategist himself, rather than the one who synthesizes and sifts through the plans of others to arrive at the most appropriate course of action.

Jon has had to do it alone his whole life, and if his complicated yet genius-level intellectual father, Raegar Targaryen, is anything to go by, he likely inherited some IQ genes that Robb simply does not have.