Jon would have done much better than Robb

[JoeyBanana]

I understand this and in my opinion that's charisma, Jon had neither the most impressive battle performances nor the smartest decisions, and still he managed to get respect from them.

The fact that the wildlings wants to follow him and he talk about going to Winterfell is another evidence of his natural charisma.

Being charismatic doesn't

Let's blame Robb for giving orders that seem stupid for someone in Edmure's position;

You need to be either a coward or an extremely straight man to not do what Edmure did.

I specifically mentioned those characters as they're (just like Mance) smart and experienced. They don't judge on rank, birth, looks, appearance, or personality. They recognize his worth by what he does. Charisma has nothing to do with that.

Robb protected Edmure from the shame and humiliation by only secretly calling him out on his mistake. If he wanted to blame him, he'd done so openly and not waited when all other lords had left. The Blackfish, his own uncle and a man who would know a thing or two about "stupid orders", is not as gentle and puts all the blame on Edmure.

[David Selig]

Jon, in contrast, appears to be exactly that genius in the making. The one who is the strategist himself, rather than the one who synthesizes and sifts through the plans of others to arrive at the most appropriate course of action.

ROFL.

Hardhome was such a genius move, same as his plan for dealing with Ramsay...Caesar reborn for sure.

[Roxy Carmichael]

Yes, but Robb had his Frey deal to take into account. I'd be willing to bet that Jon would have stayed true to the Frey deal.

Also, I think his falling for Ygritte suggests that Jon's taste in women was somewhat different to Robb's.

There never would have been a "Frey deal" for Jon. He never would have made it past the Twins and would have had to take the King's Road... likely to his defeat since he wouldn't have had men like the Blackfish and Jason Mallister to advise and help him.

I agree about his taste in women... Robb seemed to like pretty ladies, Jon seems to prefer homely tomboys.

[Free Northman Reborn]

ROFL.

Hardhome was a genius move, same as his plan for dealing with Ramsay...Caesar reborn for sure.

Hardhome is no worse a move than the Israeli raid to rescue hostages from Entebbe.

If it succeeds, it is brilliant. If it fails, it is a loss. It is a calculated risk, with no guarantee of the outcome. His intention is to save thousands of women and children from certain death at the hands of an undead friggin horde.

Women and children who would otherwise become animated wights that would bolster the ranks of the undead.

As for the plan against Ramsay. We have very limited information on what that plan actually entails. The hour long conversation with Tormund that we are not privy to likely covers the detail of it.

[David Selig]

It is not calculated risk when you have no chance for success, especially when your organization is so lacking in men as the Watch is. The first Hardhome expedition was risky, the second one Jon planned was completely idiotic and obviously doomed.

Israle can afford to take risks, the Watch really can't given how few men they have now.

[Ingelheim]

It is not calculated risk when you have no chance for success, especially when your organization is so lacking in men as the Watch is. The first Hardhome expedition was risky, the second one Jon planned was completely idiotic and obviously doomed.

Israle can afford to take risks, the Watch really can't given how few men they have now.

Totally agree. Hardhome 2.0 was dumb.

[Woofless]

Of course the Tully were a positive influence. Cat was smarter and more practical than Ned. Cat was Robb's best political adviser, the Blackfish his best military adviser. The Tully were the Starks main allies in the war.

Jon looks bad because he behaves like a doofus often but gets away with it. Like his desertion in AGOT. A mindbogglingly stupid act. But his magical wolf saved him from the consequences of it.

And Rob doesn't have a magical wolf? Would The Greatjon have risen up calling for Jon to be King of the North if Grey Wind hadn't chomped off two of his fingers?

[chrisdaw]

Jon will do a much better job than Robb.

[Free Northman Reborn]

And Rob doesn't have a magical wolf? Would The Greatjon have risen up calling for Jon to be King of the North if Grey Wind hadn't chomped off two of his fingers?

Not to mention that Greywind found the secret path that allowed the Northmen to circumvent the Golden Tooth and strike into the heart of the Westerlands.

[sj4iy]

6) Same education doesn't mean equal competence. Robb was gifted, and Jon has yet to do anything impressive as a commander.

...except unite two enemies in common cause, increase the number of people fighting for his decrepit Night's Watch, refortify the Wall's defenses after centuries of disrepair, negotiate with Kings and bankers to get what he needs despite his lack of resources....oh, and save thousands if people's lives because he doesn't let himself be blinded by prejudice.

No, nothing particularly impressive at all.

[Free Northman Reborn]

...except unite two enemies in common cause, increase the number of people fighting for his decrepit Night's Watch, refortify the Wall's defenses after centuries of disrepair, negotiate with Kings and bankers to get what he needs despite his lack of resources....oh, and save thousands if people's lives because he doesn't let himself be blinded by prejudice.

No, nothing particularly impressive at all.

To add to that:

Jon was not the hereditary ruler of the Night's Watch, unlike Robb who automatically was granted command of all his lords by virtue of his birth. By the time Jon became Commander, Robb was already dead.

So Jon has not had a similar amount of time in a position of authority to achieve what Robb has, not to mention that Robb's position gave him access to the resources of two entire kingdoms, while Jon's gave him a brief command of less than 1000 useless losers.

It's kind of like trying to compare the achievements of Queen Victoria of England vs that of the Warden of the Australian Penal Colony, during the 1800's.

Jon commanded a grand total of 600 or so surviving Night's Watchmen. Robb commanded the sum total of the resources of 10 million people or thereabouts.

Give Jon the resources Robb had at his disposal and only then could you see what he is capable of doing with it.

[David Selig]

...except unite two enemies in common cause,

Yeah, because uniting two fractions against the Super Evil Undead Ice Monsters sounds so tough.

negotiate with Kings and bankers to get what he needs despite his lack of resources....

Wow, he negotiated a loan with the representative of the richest bank who was around at the convenient time, obvious sign of a military genius right there. Mere mortals would never have come up with such a plan.

[The Wolves]

It is not calculated risk when you have no chance for success, especially when your organization is so lacking in men as the Watch is. The first Hardhome expedition was risky, the second one Jon planned was completely idiotic and obviously doomed.

Israle can afford to take risks, the Watch really can't given how few men they have now.

Well Jon had Wildlings who knew Hardhome better than the Nights Watch men, so there was that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yeah, because uniting two fractions against the Super Evil Undead Ice Monsters sounds so tough.

Wow, he negotiated a loan with the representative of the richest bank who was around at the convenient time, obvious sign of a military genius right there. Mere mortals would never have come up with such a plan.

Hehe. You just can't handle the fact that Jon is the savior of the universe in this story. As much as you rail against it, it does not change the inevitability of it.

[The Wolves]

Hehe. You just can't handle the fact that Jon is the savior of the universe in this story. As much as you rail against it, it does not change the inevitability of it.

He's not the savior of anything. Jon is not the be all end all in this story no matter what some people think.

[The Fallen]

Frankly, I have long held great suspicions about the degree to which Robb was personally responsible for the grand strategic victories achieved by the Northmen in the Riverlands and the West.

Note that we are never actually shown the process of decisionmaking behind these military victories. Mostly, they are shown to us from the point of view of the Lannisters, who suffered the defeats seemingly out of the blue.

And it seems incredibly unlikely that a 15-year old boy who needed his mother to tell him which of his bannerlords should lead the vanguard of his army, suddenly jumped in only a few months to coming up with brilliant plans to ambush Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood, slip past the Golden Tooth into the West, slay Stafford's host and come up with the idea to draw Tywin back to the West with the purpose of trapping him there.

I think we are never shown the war councils behind these decisions for a reason. And that reason is that it would simply not come across as believable that the raw boy who needed his mother to make his military decisions for him in Game of Thrones, would suddenly become Alexander the Great by the time of A Clash of Kings.

In short, I think Robb was more of a figurehead, with the likes of the Blackfish, the Greatjon, Maege Mormont and other experienced battle lords coming up with his most brilliant strategic moves. Granted, his skill probably lay in deciding which of the various options to pursue, but he simply does not come across as the type of battle strategist who came up with these plans himself.

Jon, in contrast, appears to be exactly that genius in the making. The one who is the strategist himself, rather than the one who synthesizes and sifts through the plans of others to arrive at the most appropriate course of action.

Jon has had to do it alone his whole life, and if his complicated yet genius-level intellectual father, Raegar Targaryen, is anything to go by, he likely inherited some IQ genes that Robb simply does not have.

In AGoT we see Robb tell Cat what Roose advises and what the Greatjon advises. And when she asks Robb what he thinks he tells her about splitting his forces. Cat doesn't get it. She asks why he would put a river between his army. And he tells her that he's putting a river between the two Lannister hosts.

As far as the Whispering Wood is concerned we also see Robb explaining to his subordinates where they will be and where they will spring the trap. The Blackfish might have scouted out the location, but it was Robb's plan.

I still maintain that Robb gets too much undeserved criticism.

I like Jon also. He's got the bigger picture in mind. But at this point in the story Robb has shown more brilliance in battle tactics and strategy. Robb was also respectful of his men, and lets face it, he was revered by his army. The problem Jon faces is too big and important for him to worry about his men liking him. That's actually a + for him. Both Robb and Jon have shown the ability to lead men. They've just faced different issues and had to deal with them differently.

To the OP, Jon at Robb's side would have been the perfect combination.

[DragonDreamer]

He's not the savior of anything. Jon is not the be all end all in this story no matter what some people think.

:agree:

The way some people read the story they should rename the books to:

Jon Snow and A Game of Thrones

Jon Snow and A Clash of Kings

Jon Snow and A Storm of Sowrds

Oh wait, Jon Snow wasn't in A Feast for Crows :(

To the OP no I don't think Jon would have done better than Robb at the time.

[Free Northman Reborn]

To the OP, Jon at Robb's side would have been the perfect combination.

Robb at Jon's side would have been an even better combination.

[sj4iy]

Yeah, because uniting two fractions against the Super Evil Undead Ice Monsters sounds so tough.

Who else would have even attempted it in the NW? Oh, that's right...no one. No one would have negotiated with Tormund in the first place, because everyone else would have simply let the Wildlings die. You make it sound like it was the straight-forward, logical thing to do, but his own counsel thought that he was committing treason when he let them through, and Jon was stabbed for making such decisions.

Wow, he negotiated a loan with the representative of the richest bank who was around at the convenient time, obvious sign of a military genius right there. Mere mortals would never have come up with such a plan.

Ever negotiated from a position of weakness and still got everything you wanted? I doubt it, since you seem to think it's a simple thing to do. Jon has no way to repay the loan to the Iron Bank, but he still gets the money to feed his people during the winter. Jon has no way to stop Stannis from robbing the NW blind if Stannis were to use force to take it, but he does. He's an impressive negotiator, which Stannis even remarks upon: "Were you fathered on a fish wife?" The NW needed him more than anyone simply because he is so good at getting something for nothing.

Underplay Jon's achievements all you want, but it's very impressive what he was able to do in such a short amount of time and without any resources with which to do them.

[RavenKing23]

Robb at Jon's side would have been an even better combination.

More like Jon at Robb's side.