GRRM should have made Valyrians black

[Game Of Thrones]

Romans werent black.

Tis all that needs to be said.

Romans didn't exactly have super pale skin, metallic hair, and purple eyes either.

[HexMachina]

I have to ask, is there suddenly something wrong with writing about white people?

Its "political correctness" gone mad.

He could have written them black yes. But he decided otherwise. Should we also question why he chose not to have the Dornish as black? The Volantenes? The Astapori?

[Annara Snow]

If the Valyrians were black, then that would make R+L=J and A+J=T pretty obvious...

Nah, it would make A+J=T as non-existent as it is this way.

[Lux]

I recently read that GRRM wanted to show that the Valyrians were "different" from other humans in ASOIAF, so he gave them the traditional elvish qualities of silver hair, purple eyes & delicate features. However, in that same interview he also stated that it occurred to him "20 yrs too late" that he could have made the Valyrians black instead. I personally think the latter choice would have been MUCH cooler; it would really be breaking the fantasy & RL mold to make a race of sorcerers & conquerors black. It would have been even more interesting if instead of making them look like sub-Saharan Africans GRRM gave the Valyrians black (really black, not just brown) skin & European features. That would have been cool.

Who would you guys cast for Black!Daenerys, Black!Viserys & Black!Aegon?

Or make them Afrikaan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXNPI-IPPM

[UVA]

OK, let's suppose he had made them black.

You have a black family ruling over an overwhelmingly white realm, with aforementioned black family engaging in incest to keep themselves special. You have Robert's Rebellion, where a bunch of white guys* defeat a black tyrant. Aforementioned black tyrant rapes his wife, burns (white) people alive, and plots to blow up the (overwhelmingly white) capital city.

If you can't see how this would lead to Martin being accused of KKK membership, I'm not sure what more anyone can do for you. And that's even before we consider the Targaryen association with magic and dragons. Snip...

Martin expressed a similar concern to a poster on his blog where this topic originated:

Speaking of Valyria... right from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional 'high fantasy' choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so).

But in recent years, it has occured to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria... and therefore the Targaryens... black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though... no, that comes too close to 'dark elf' territory, but still... if I'd had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros... though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all... some of them have been monsters, madmen, so...

Well, it's all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Yeah, there are a lot of reasons why he shouldn't have made them black. Nor the slavers anywhere in Essos. That bad behavior is exclusively reserved for white people. ;)

On the other hand, it would have been cool, if only to screw with a sometimes widely held opinion that white people are the most racist people ever. But then again, the series wouldn't have been as popular as it is now. Glad he didn't, then.

[l3ol3o]

OK, let's suppose he had made them black.

You have a black family ruling over an overwhelmingly white realm, with aforementioned black family engaging in incest to keep themselves special. You have Robert's Rebellion, where a bunch of white guys* defeat a black tyrant. Aforementioned black tyrant rapes his wife, burns (white) people alive, and plots to blow up the (overwhelmingly white) capital city.

If you can't see how this would lead to Martin being accused of KKK membership, I'm not sure what more anyone can do for you. And that's even before we consider the Targaryen association with magic and dragons. Do we have magical negroes on top of a race war?

*Though I suppose Robert would be at least slightly tan, or to use the terminology of the bad old days, a Quadroon.

Agreed

As a Black man I have to say this a terrible idea. It's a case of screwed if you do and screwed if you don't. GRRM doesn't include enough blacks in the series and he's a secret racist. GRRM makes ruthless black elites that enslave the rest of the world with the dragons and he's a racist. When dealing with slavery it's safe to make both the slaves and the people enslaving the same race. I think Joe Abercrombie did this in his first law series where both the slaves and enslavers were black.

If GRRM did make the Valyrians black it probably wouldn't have been a huge deal when the books came out. Now though, ugh. He would have to do a Don Imus type apology tour where he kisses the feet of Al Sharpton and his ilk for depicting blacks a ruthless savages who going around enslaving and dominating whites in the pursuit of power.

Just as side note. A few of my family members/black friends have read this series/watched the show and none of them have ever mentioned race except one and just a Cersie think's she see's Tyrion plotting against her at all times, he thinks the white man is plotting against him always. It's only my liberal, white-guilt, SJW type friends that seem to bring up race when discussing this series.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

I think Nathalie Immanuel (Missandei) would've been a fantastic Daenerys. She projects a quiet regal dignity and I could believe her in that role.

[Game Of Thrones]

I think Nathalie Immanuel (Missandei) would've been a fantastic Daenerys. She projects a quiet regal dignity and I could believe her in that role.

I'm pretty sure Dany doesn't project a quiet regal dignity, more of OMG DRAGONS terror.

[Singer's stew]

Romans didn't exactly have super pale skin, metallic hair, and purple eyes either.

They werent black either

[Game Of Thrones]

They werent black either

I'm just pointing out that the poster who said Valyrians shouldn't be black because Romans weren't is wrong.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Martin has once again opened up a can of worms that should be left alone. I hate when authors second guess themselves. I am still pretty angry at the Robb Stark should have had a POV thing. Only in one instance did I ever find it acceptable and that is when JK Rowling put out that Harry and Hermione should have gotten married.

[Singer's stew]

Martin has once again opened up a can of worms that should be left alone. I hate when authors second guess themselves. I am still pretty angry at the Robb Stark should have had a POV thing. Only in one instance did I ever find it acceptable and that is when JK Rowling put out that Harry and Hermione should have gotten married.

At least she didnt put out that Garry Potter actually should be chinese and Heriome some kind eskimo

[Annara Snow]

OK, let's suppose he had made them black.

You have a black family ruling over an overwhelmingly white realm, with aforementioned black family engaging in incest to keep themselves special. You have Robert's Rebellion, where a bunch of white guys* defeat a black tyrant. Aforementioned black tyrant rapes his wife, burns (white) people alive, and plots to blow up the (overwhelmingly white) capital city.

If you can't see how this would lead to Martin being accused of KKK membership, I'm not sure what more anyone can do for you. And that's even before we consider the Targaryen association with magic and dragons. Do we have magical negroes on top of a race war?

*Though I suppose Robert would be at least slightly tan, or to use the terminology of the bad old days, a Quadroon.

Don't forget, the aforementioned black tyrant also desires/acts in a sexually inappropriate way to a white woman, the wife of the powerful white lord he had a big rivalry with.

[Light a wight tonight]

it would be cool. That little bloke who played Arnold in Different strokes could be Tyrion. Whatcha taking bout Wyllas.

Gary Coleman. He's dead.

[Marcus Agrippa]

At least she didnt put out that Garry Potter actually should be chinese and Heriome some kind eskimo

Point taken. It's to the point where America has become the most absurd place on Earth with its strange obsession with race and PC. If you think about it people are literally arguing over a protein. Not that most people ( I mean ALL nations) understand that. I one time got in argument with a communications major over the concept of race. Her version of the story- because its a part of our culture means race is real- regardless of the science.

[willofDorne]

If people want Black Valyrians, they can make a fan-film or buy the rights and make it. I'd watch it.

However... I like that these Valyrians have a resistance to the sun, despite having white skin. Having them with black skin would make the fantasy element a lot less interesting.

[Tolkiennerd]

It's too bad that people still worry about the color of skin, and not the story and plot itself. GRRM did a great job making a cool story. Had the Valyrians been black, yeah, he would have been called a racist. Yet he didn't, and he's still supposedly a secret racist. Oh well. Plot-wise, I'm glad he didn't because it does make the Valyrians seem more otherworldly, and it adds intrigue into all these secret Targ theories.

[Sevumar]

It's too bad that people still worry about the color of skin, and not the story and plot itself. GRRM did a great job making a cool story. Had the Valyrians been black, yeah, he would have been called a racist. Yet he didn't, and he's still supposedly a secret racist. Oh well.

There will always be groups of readers who will be upset by not seeing exactly what they want to see, or not seeing enough of some identity group that is important to them. Martin's done a great job of worldbuilding on the whole, with no real trouble spots.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

I feel like there is a subtle form of racism in suggesting Westeros should be more 'diverse' or populated with people of color. Its clear Westeros is designed after historical Europe, and using stereotypes associated with Europe makes a certain storytelling shorthand sense. Wanting to add people of color for the sake of adding people of color sounds like you want people of color to be window dressing. You don't want to read a fantasy story derived from their culture, which ASoIaF clearly isn't, but you want people of color around for what? Aescetic reasons? To feel good about how you want diversity?

To the original point, the only advantage I see is avoiding the 'white savior' Dany implications. I'm not sure that'd be worth the controversy of explaining the choice, however, in regards to the Targ role in history and the story.

I do think it would've made more sense to give the Targs some other special snowflake physical features but give them more of a Agean/Roman coloring, because the Roman association makes sense both because of geography and again historical analogies.

Pale is also shorthand for inbreeding, and elven features shorthand for ancient and powerful but dying off, so I can see where he was going.