GRRM should have made Valyrians black

[Lord Hanna]

Should have been crab people.

[Hodor the Articulate]

The connotations would be quite simple: a power struggle between Blacks and Whites (started off by a Black King oppressing White guys, and the Black Crown Prince running off with a White woman), with racial purity being given paramount importance. In other words, the thing would come across as incredibly frigging racist.

Wait...just because it touches on race or racial struggles, does not make it racist. If the book portrays the "heroic" (white) rebels overthrowing the "villainous" (black) Targs as an unquestionably good thing, then sure, but that's not what's in the books right now. It would be even less problematic with other black characters around (as I've already said).

Adding more Black characters rather defeats the point of the Targaryens being Black: they're supposed to be special and unique, remember?

I don't follow. The same things that make the Targs special and unique, as they are right now, would differentiate them from the other black characters, no?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Wait...just because it touches on race or racial struggles, does not make it racist. If the book portrays the "heroic" (white) rebels overthrowing the "villainous" (black) Targs as an unquestionably good thing, then sure, but that's not what's in the books right now. It would be even less problematic with other black characters around (as I've already said).

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse. One of the worst racial stererotypes about black men is that they are out to "steal" white women, with the associated issue that racist white men think they need to protect their women from evil blacks. Robert's Rebellion fits that narrative like a glove. Then we can bring in the evil black dictator who is oppressing all the white guys. It's blacks vs. whites, a race war. In short, the sort of message that the KKK peddles.

I don't follow. The same things that make the Targs special and unique, as they are right now, would differentiate them from the other black characters, no?

So you want black Targaryens with silver hair and purple eyes?

[Singer's stew]

Ye sure, valyrians must be black. They should also talk like this: "shizze my nizzle niggaaa, motherfukinggg drivebyyyy, You ccaint say nigga cuz you aint black you is white and you great great great grandaddy kept my great great great grandaddy as a slave, so you need to give me yo money, dawg" and ride on lowrider pimped chariots instead of dragons.

[LordStoneheart]

^ um, yeah, Jalabhar and the other Summer Islanders don't talk like that.

Normally, I understand the need for political correctness at certain times for certain things, but this is just ridiculous. Literature is not affirmative action. Literature is what an author envisions and it is neither a positive or a negative that GRRM made the Valyrians fair-skinned. It just is what it is.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse. One of the worst racial stererotypes about black men is that they are out to "steal" white women, with the associated issue that racist white men think they need to protect their women from evil blacks. Robert's Rebellion fits that narrative like a glove. Then we can bring in the evil black dictator who is oppressing all the white guys. It's blacks vs. whites, a race war. In short, the sort of message that the KKK peddles.

Well there's the problem: you think Rhaegar really did kidnap Lyanna. I don't. I think Lyanna willingly ran away with Rhaegar. From my perspective, it would be a subversion on the stereotype, and commentary on the harmful effects of racial stereotypes.

And I'll say it again: it wouldn't be blacks vs. whites if there are other black characters about. Even if it was, so what? Simply having racial conflicts in the story doesn't equate to advocacy of racial supremacy, by itself. The only criticism I have is that it's not very relevant concept, since it's historically been black people oppressed by white people.

So you want black Targaryens with silver hair and purple eyes?

Is there something wrong with silver haired, purple eyed black Targs?

[Wolf in Hallowed Places]

Someone mentioned that Areo Hotah being cast as black would be seen as problematic because of his obedient, subservient nature. If a character who was the complete opposite of this - unruly, wilful - was cast as black, there would be the same accusations of stereotyping.

Obedient character cast as black person = black slave stereotype

Unruly character cast as black person = wild criminal black stereotype

Dominant race (Valyrians) cast as black = racist

Subservient race (eg. Lhazarene) cast as black = racist

I've seen criticisms of the Summer Islanders' portrayal as being 'sexually liberated' as racist, because it reflects stereotypes of lascivious blacks. If they were portrayed as sexually conservative or 'repressed', you can bet people would find a way of criticising it, maybe by comparing them to sexually conservative Ugandan Christian preachers or something. Some people just make it their business to be offended.

As for the Valyrians being black, sure he could have done, but why? He could have made them all sorts of things. Making them black would have felt extremely tokenistic, gratuitous, and contrived. Diversity for its own sake, rather than to reflect reality (which is kind of moot in a fantasy setting anyway).

Or make them Afrikaan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXNPI-IPPM

Lol Yolandi is definitely a secret Targ. Look at that silver-blonde hair!

Does that mean that valyrians acted like mongols in Russia, kIlled all men and raped all woman so offsprings would be more like them?

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. IS are reportedly doing this to the Yazidis in Iraq atm - kidnapping the blonde blue-eyed girls who are distinctive to their people in order to impregnate them and erase this distinct phenotype. It's a kind of genetic genocide.

That leaves making everyone Black, Targaryen or otherwise. Which is rather self defeating if the objective was to have a diverse setting.

More diversity = less white people

Maximum diversity = no white people

Let's face it, homogeneous societies are the only way to avoid these problems.

[Game Of Thrones]

Let's face it, homogeneous societies are the only way to avoid these problems.

I just read a site that said that Hitler was just trying to achieve a peaceful homogenous society, so I'm a bit sensitive about "homogenous societies are good!" talk ATM.

And BTW you're wrong.

And let's steer this topic away from being bogged down in political debates.

[Trigger Warning]

As soon as you put black people in anything SJWs will find a way to say it's racist.

[Singer's stew]

As soon as you put black people in anything SJWs will find a way to say it's racist.

Because now black people are biggest racists

[Wolf in Hallowed Places]

I just read a site that said that Hitler was just trying to achieve a peaceful homogenous society, so I'm a bit sensitive about "homogenous societies are good!" talk ATM.

And BTW you're wrong.

And let's steer this topic away from being bogged down in political debates.

Do you have a link to that site? That's totally not where I'm coming from, but I'm genuinely curious as to how someone could spin that.

It's a bit of a Godwin's Law/strawman fallacy to associate any positive views of homogeneous societies with Hitler. Especially if that association is borne of 'sensitivity' rather than reason or conviction.

I agree though (and I'm sure the mods would too), let's not get bogged down in politics. However, a topic like this is instrinsically tied up with real-world politics, so it's only natural that political implications will come up.

[Wolf in Hallowed Places]

OP, why do you put exclamation marks after the word 'black'?

[Game Of Thrones]

Do you have a link to that site?

I'm trying to erase that site from my memory :(

[Winter's Knight]

Someone mentioned that Areo Hotah being cast as black would be seen as problematic because of his obedient, subservient nature. If a character who was the complete opposite of this - unruly, wilful - was cast as black, there would be the same accusations of stereotyping.

Obedient character cast as black person = black slave stereotype

Unruly character cast as black person = wild criminal black stereotype

Dominant race (Valyrians) cast as black = racist

Subservient race (eg. Lhazarene) cast as black = racist

The best way to avoid that is to have more than one type of black person. Seeing how large Westeros, there's no reason why the First Men couldn't be indigeous or why the Andals couldn't be black, or the Dornish be analogous to South Asia.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

The best way to avoid that is to stop looking for things that aren't there.

Case in point:

none of my black friends have ever even questioned it. But I know two white girls who howl about it whenever the books or show are brought up and no one pays them any mind because they're always trying to find some victimisation or discrimination in absolutely everything anyway.

[Ziriath]

Even if they were black, social justice 'activists' on tumblr would find many other reasons to complain anyway.

[LordStoneheart]

Even if they were black, social justice 'activists' on tumblr would find many other reasons to complain anyway.

:lol:

good one. reminds me of the tumblr folks who thought Mhysa was some great tragedy in the history of television.

[Gormless Jon]

Just came to say that Singer's stew is either a troll or a horrible person.

[whatsinthepaste?]

Even if they were black, social justice 'activists' on tumblr would find many other reasons to complain anyway.

Quite so. Its really sad how "racism" has become such a blanket term thats so ambiguous it barely means anything anymore.

Black ruling class slavelord who is slightly insane. Ruling over predominantly white people. Racist as fuck.

White ruling class slavelord who is slightly insane. Ruling over predominantly black people. Racist as fuck.

I don't get it anymore.

[The Bedding]

Then Longspear Ryk would definitely be a Targ.