Red Wedding: Books or Show?

[xfatalxsnipez]

So I'll get my copy of Storm of Swords: Part II: Blood and Gold today [from the UK] and I was wandering.

Who executed [heh] the Red Wedding better? GRRM or D&D?

Is it worse portrayed on TV due to the death of Walder Frey's wife and Talisa Maegar?

DISCUSS

[aguy]

Books, they showed how Catelyn was willing to kill the only innocent Frey for Robb. Also, her final thoughts show just how crazy she'd become.

No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair

[Big Daddy]

The book was better. The biggest reason for me, but not the only reason, is we get Cat's inner monologue while it's happening which makes the tragedy so much worse. You can't do that live action without a narrator and have it seem trite.

[+cassius]

Red Wedding still gets to me

[JamesOfHouseMurphy]

I love how in the book the musicians inside and out were playing different music through the whole feast until they started "the rains of Castamere" and played in perfect unison, also through the killing there was one loan drummer going.. Boom.. Boom.. Boom.. The show also had the rains of castamere playing just before the execution but only readers would know what it was anyway. If they had made a point of playing and explaining the Rains of Castamere earlier in the season the scene would've been more powerful.

[Ser Greg of House House]

The RW is one of the only scenes I've watched from the show after season 1. I was disappointed, it felt kind of cheap. But... That's probably because I wasn't really invested in the characters (since I don't watch the show). Had I seen the build up, maybe I'd like it more. From the enormous reaction they got, I must say they must have done something right.

[SweetPea]

The book was better. The biggest reason for me, but not the only reason, is we get Cat's inner monologue while it's happening which makes the tragedy so much worse. You can't do that live action without a narrator and have it seem trite.

Yes, that, and the books showed how loyal Robb's men were, they instantly went to protect him, even at the cost of their own lives.

[RickonKITN]

Both were incredible with their own individual additions.

In the books, Catelyns thoughts , clawing her face , 'make it stop ned' was so so powerful... Robb calling out for Grey Wind as well. Even when you think it can't get worse, Roose mentions Jaime which puts him in the shit with stoneheart. With Jaime being my favourite character from the bath scene onwards it just sums the whole damn thing up for me lol.

On TV I think little things like Tulisa being there was great. Obviously knowing it was going to happen I didn't think id be that shocked, but when someone stabs the shit out of Tulisa , then seeing robbs face, my jaw hit the floor.

RW was so well done, best adaptation so far for me

[The Amethyst Empress]

I love how in the book the musicians inside and out were playing different music through the whole feast until they started "the rains of Castamere" and played in perfect unison, also through the killing there was one loan drummer going.. Boom.. Boom.. Boom.. The show also had the rains of castamere playing just before the execution but only readers would know what it was anyway. If they had made a point of playing and explaining the Rains of Castamere earlier in the season the scene would've been more powerful.

You're right,I hadn't read the books when I watched the first 3 seasons,and in the RW scene Catelyn heard the song and looked worried and I was like "what the fuck is wrong now Cat?just enjoy the feast!"...Then I understood

[BastardlyRock]

I felt Elio and Linda's review of S3E9 really captured how I felt about it. For anyone who hasn't read it you can find it here, and if you don't want to read the whole thing or haven't seen it in a while I'll copy paste what I felt the meat and potatoes of it were:

Those who’ve read the books will surely recall that part of the power of the Red Wedding was the atmosphere and the nagging feeling that something, somewhere, was not quite right. This uneasy feeling is a hallmark of the entire chapter, not just the final pages. Martin builds tension from the opening line (“The drums were pounding, pounding, pounding, and her head with them.”), leaving readers aching for the release—the end of this awful, uncomfortable wedding—and then when the resolution comes, it’s in the cruelest way possible. It bears recalling that Martin isn’t just an award-winning writer of science fiction and fantasy, but also an award-winning horror writer, and it shows within this chapter. What sets apart that final Catelyn chapter from (almost) every other chapter in the series is that Martin seamlessly slips into the horror mode. From start to finish, the chapter is filled with horror tropes: a feeling of growing dread, an uneasy focal character who can’t quite pin down what’s wrong, an environment that feels threatening in some inexplicable way.

It’s not as if Benioff and Weiss tried and failed to capture the mood, the sense of the wedding as being the wedding from hell—an ungracious host, bad food, bad music, too many people in too close a place—and then segueing into the bloodiest wedding imaginable is. Instead, the executive producers/writers eschewed the atmosphere entirely. Where in the novel it’s a plot point that the musicians are terrible, they actively go with the musicians being quite capable (perhaps because drummer Will Champion of Coldplay was among them?), and the gaiety seems quite unforced. Even Catelyn is in good cheer through much of it. Was it a lack of ambition? A belief that going from the extreme of a joyous atmosphere to an orgy of murder is more powerful than mounting dread and uncertainty? A need to simplify and shorten?

There seems to be something hollow in “The Rains of Castamere”, and I believe it comes down to this choice to reconfigure the event into a “Big! Shocking! Moment!” that’s really at fault.

[Kyoshi]

I was Unsullied when I watched the Rains of Catamere. Throughout the epsiode I felt the mounting dread. I think it started when Arya kept looking in the directions of the Twins, the Hound commented that she was afraid that the closer she got the more fraid she became that she would not get there.

And when that random Frey guy went to close the door, when the song started playing and Cat looked like she recognised it, I knew for sure something was wrong. The whole episode made me anxious to be honest. I thought it was pretty well-handled :dunno:

[LongRider]

The atmosphere GRRM had in the book not just for the wedding itself, but Robb's and Cat's and the army's travel through the unrelenting rain, the tension when meeting with Walder, then the terrible music, food and Cat's headache and feeling of dread. It was what was written the book that was shocking to me. So well done!

Stabbing Talisa was, to me, just more TV "we're gonna shock you now" kinda stuff and not a surprise really. It was the Roose Bolton character that delivered the goods...always a badass!

I found that the scenes right before the RW, where Bran and Rickon parted ways were what really tore me up. But the RW, yeah, good TV but not the same as GRRM's written shocker.

[BastardlyRock]

I was Unsullied when I watched the Rains of Catamere. Throughout the epsiode I felt the mounting dread. I think it started when Arya kept looking in the directions of the Twins, the Hound commented that she was afraid that the closer she got the more fraid she became that she would not get there.

And when that random Frey guy went to close the door, when the song started playing and Cat looked like she recognised it, I knew for sure something was wrong. The whole episode made me anxious to be honest. I thought it was pretty well-handled :dunno:

I have friends who felt the same way. It may just be a case of me having had higher hopes for something as integral as the RW to not come across as schlocky. They had fantastic material, but as usual they felt they had to play with it, mix it up, add a little spice (wait, what if Robb's wife died too!? Heck yeah! They won't see that coming -- stab her belly a bunch of times first? That'll kick it up a notch!)

D&D have said countless times one of, if not the main reason they wanted to adapt GoT was to do the RW. They even said in an interview that they were worried afterwards it would all be downhill. -- What?!? Some of the best material (imho) had yet to even come. I felt it was degrading to one of the best fantasy series of all time to have the reason for its adaptation boiled down to their own "amped up" version of shocking tv, especially since afterwards they've seemingly cared little and less for the fanbase that got them there in the first place :dunno:

[Ygrain]

Books, hands down. The creepy atmosphere, the sense of something being terribly wrong, and then the merciless slaughter of Robb's vassals who try to fight back with their bare hands, with the finale of Cat losing her mind... nothing compares.

And the big! shock! of stabbing a pregnant lady in the stomach is rather lost in the utter brainlessness of having her present in the first place. The whole Talissa story arc was one big facepalm but having her show off her pregnant belly to the face of the Lord whose daughters were spurned because of her and whose forgiveness Robb badly needed... sheer and utter stupidity.

[Kyoshi]

I have friends who felt the same way. It may just be a case of me having had higher hopes for something as integral as the RW to not come across as schlocky. They had fantastic material, but as usual they felt they had to play with it, mix it up, add a little spice (wait, what if Robb's wife died too!? Heck yeah! They won't see that coming -- stab her belly a bunch of times first? That'll kick it up a notch!)

D&D have said countless times one of, if not the main reason they wanted to adapt GoT was to do the RW. They even said in an interview that they were worried afterwards it would all be downhill. -- What?!? Some of the best material (imho) had yet to even come. I felt it was degrading to one of the best fantasy series of all time to have the reason for its adaptation boiled down to their own "amped up" version of shocking tv, especially since afterwards they've seemingly cared little and less for the fanbase that got them there in the first place :dunno:

They've said that many times. It's kind of annoying really. Having posted what I did above, I have to admit that the book version is definitely better. As someone else has said, even when Robb is travelling to the wedding you get that feeling of foreboding. The Rain. The damn rain gets me. And Grey Wind's mood throughout the whole affair. But D+D have chosen not to use the wolves as effectively as they might have...Grey Wind only howls towards the end when everything else is already in chaos.

I have an Unsullied friend whom I had to tell that the direwolves are "special", same as the dragons. She still doesn't see it in the show. I think if they'd used Grey Wind well, and had the characters comment about the eeriness of the rain, they might have somehow managed to match up to GRRM, not the same, but up to what fans were expecting.

[BastardlyRock]

They've said that many times. It's kind of annoying really. Having posted what I did above, I have to admit that the book version is definitely better. As someone else has said, even when Robb is travelling to the wedding you get that feeling of foreboding. The Rain. The damn rain gets me. And Grey Wind's mood throughout the whole affair. But D+D have chosen not to use the wolves as effectively as they might have...Grey Wind only howls towards the end when everything else is already in chaos.

I have an Unsullied friend whom I had to tell that the direwolves are "special", same as the dragons. She still doesn't see it in the show. I think if they'd used Grey Wind well, and had the characters comment about the eeriness of the rain, they might have somehow managed to match up to GRRM, not the same, but up to what fans were expecting.

Yep, I agree entirely. It's not that I hate the show, I can't really, especially that first season (man it was awesome) -- it just kind of lost that loving feeling (for me) is all :dunno: I go back to a quote I read every now and then and it's true: when asked how he felt about how Hollywood was butchering his crime novels Jim Thompson pointed to his bookshelf and said ‘Hollywood hasn’t done anything to my books. They are right there’. And the books are always gonna be their own pristine world.' -- I love that quote. I still had higher hopes for the adaptation of this amazing book series, but didn't we all? Most of us anyway? :P

[OllyS]

I love how in the book the musicians inside and out were playing different music through the whole feast until they started "the rains of Castamere" and played in perfect unison, also through the killing there was one loan drummer going.. Boom.. Boom.. Boom.. The show also had the rains of castamere playing just before the execution but only readers would know what it was anyway. If they had made a point of playing and explaining the Rains of Castamere earlier in the season the scene would've been more powerful.

It was spoken in detail about the episode before, they just didn't bother playing it.

[BearQueen87]

My vote goes for the books as well. I thought the episode was well done but there were things that didn't add up or were missing: Talisa being there didn't make sense except to up the anti when everything went down, Roose saying "The Lannisters" instead of "Jamie Lannister" sends his regards (a small thing I know but important to the LSH storyline which they've now dropped); Cat's overall merriment when she should have been on edge the whole time. It was hard to watch the episode since I wasn't an Unsullied; I knew exactly what was coming and was on edge the entire time. I did, however, cry during it all.

I will say this: I did like "The king in the north...arises..."

[Kyoshi]

Yep, I agree entirely. It's not that I hate the show, I can't really, especially that first season (man it was awesome) -- it just kind of lost that loving feeling (for me) is all :dunno: I go back to a quote I read every now and then and it's true: when asked how he felt about how Hollywood was butchering his crime novels Jim Thompson pointed to his bookshelf and said ‘Hollywood hasn’t done anything to my books. They are right there’. And the books are always gonna be their own pristine world.' -- I love that quote. I still had higher hopes for the adaptation of this amazing book series, but didn't we all? Most of us anyway? :P

I love the show. Without it I never read the books. The Jim Thompson quote is great. one of the Ds used it at the San Diego Comic Con. But I din't agree with him. Sometimes D+D seem to go out of their way to undermine the source material simply for shock value, or whitewashing, wherever the mood is taking them in that particular episode.

The fan question, to the best of my recollection, was this: "you omitted a crucial scene in the last episode regarding Tyrion and Jaime/Tywin. That scene really goes a long way in shaping who Tyrion is, what he does, where the wind blows him...what was the creative reasoning behind cutting that scene?"

I think that's where they used that quote. I was just like "oh, no. Jim Thompson should have never said that. Now people will just butcher source material and say...but Jim Thompson..."

But hey, Rains was still a good episode.

[sj4iy]

I'm not going to choose. They were both masterfully done and both had the correct "atmosphere". I liked the addition of Talisa in the show, and I liked the way Catelyn dies in both. Anyone who says the scene in the show wasn't as effective is letting their love for the books cloud their judgment. It's considered one of the most shocking moments in tv history now. People put up videos of other people screaming and crying. The show did its job, but people are almost always partial to the version they experienced first.

So there. I dreaded it in both versions (I knew what would happen before I ever read it), and in both versions it was absolutely devestating.