Cas Stark Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 No, I am not mistaken.I said talk to the media about. The show is based on the books but is not the books. That is what they have said all along. They have NEVER and WILL never say in an interview that such and such a thing is going to happen in the books.They do the show and keep you guessing how much of what you see in the show is the same as the books. You said they'd be in legal trouble if they divulged unpublished material, which I'm sorry, is ridiculous since HBO owns the rights to that unpublished material and if they wanted to end the story next year and blow all of the spoilers in a preview with EW, they can do it. They own the rights to the story. Martin has sold it to them, told them how it ends, they can now do whatever they want to with it. We'll have to disagree on this legal issue, because to me, it's Martin who is going to be in hot water if he changes too much of the story from what he has told HBO it will be, not the other way around, they can release any spoiler they want...of course they're going to do it in the context of the show and not spoil the end until the last season because it's better for HBO and ratings, nothing to do with any legal commitment to GRRM and his unpublished story to which they own the rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 You said they'd be in legal trouble if they divulged unpublished material, which I'm sorry, is ridiculous since HBO owns the rights to that unpublished material and if they wanted to end the story next year and blow all of the spoilers in a preview with EW, they can do it. They own the rights to the story. Martin has sold it to them, told them how it ends, they can now do whatever they want to with it. We'll have to disagree on this legal issue, because to me, it's Martin who is going to be in hot water if he changes too much of the story from what he has told HBO it will be, not the other way around, they can release any spoiler they want...of course they're going to do it in the context of the show and not spoil the end until the last season because it's better for HBO and ratings, nothing to do with any legal commitment to GRRM and his unpublished story to which they own the rights. I can almost 100% guarantee that a NDA was signed limiting D&Ds ability to talk about the upcoming books. They are licensed to write screenplays based on the stories in the book, not blab in the media about what will happen in future books. They cannot say that they decided to place Sansa in Winterfell because that is where she will be in future books. They can comment on their story though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I can almost 100% guarantee that a NDA was signed limiting D&Ds ability to talk about the upcoming books. They are licensed to write screenplays based on the stories in the book, not blab in the media about what will happen in future books. They cannot say that they decided to place Sansa in Winterfell because that is where she will be in future books. They can comment on their story though. I don't see a difference really. When the show ends and Arya, Sansa, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jamie, Dany are wherever they are, there isn't going to be any question among reasonable people that this is where they end in the yet to be published books. It is a given that the story the show is telling is the same in general as the one that GRRM is not writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I disagree about destroying Sansa's character arc because we don't know where it ends up. Her initial plan was to play ball until an opening exposed itself. Good plan if you don't know Ramsay is psychotic. After realizing he is psychotic, she panicked and asked for help. She mistakenly trusted in Theon to deliver the candle to the right place. She reverted back to her old self (pretty common thing to do when panicking) Now she knows that she must do things herself. She may force Theon into helping her or convince him in some way to actually help. She may take matters into her own hands like she was prepared to do by picking up the corkscrew. In Season 1, Episode 10, when she saw the opportunity to push Joffrey off the ledge, she froze. This season she actively picks up the corkscrew. She has started to play mind games. There is precious screen time to show every nuance of a changing character, especially since we do not have the benefit of inner monologue to display someone's state of mind. These little actions have to be the things that tip the audience off. If she doesn't freeze when the time is right, her arc will have progressed. The point is that we don't know what she is going to do, so we cannot say that her arc is destroyed. Of course we can. We've seen her story in AFFC, and we saw D+D rush her into Darth Sansa mode. We can say with complete certainty that her current arc has been destroyed. The future is less certain, but we can still see the trajectory the story has sent her on, and that too has been ruined. Best case scenario they awkwardly try to steer her back on course, not that she was ever on course in the show anyway. I have very little faith that D+D will actually properly integrate her experience as Ramsay's wife into her future development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I don't see a difference really. When the show ends and Arya, Sansa, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jamie, Dany are wherever they are, there isn't going to be any question among reasonable people that this is where they end in the yet to be published books. It is a given that the story the show is telling is the same in general as the one that GRRM is not writing. I agree that there isn't much difference in the outcome. But the NDA would protect against a lot of things. Number 1 it sure would be easier for D&D to answer book purist questions and concerns by saying don't worry Aegon will be dying soon in the books, that is why we cut him. Plus he is fake anyway and we didn't want to deal with that nonsense. It wouldn't detract from their story at all to reveal that. They cannot though because of the NDA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I don't think you or anyone can say for a certainty where the storylines are going to end up. Say Sansa ends up in the North after the annihilation of Boltons by Stannis/Manderlys/Mance with Vale Knights on her heels after marrying Harry the Heir and disposing of Robert Arryn in the books. Is there that much of a difference if in the show she takes the role of Manderly/Mance as well as Jeyne Poole in bringing down the Boltons and the Vale Knights are delivered by Littlefinger instead of Harry the Heir? Erm yeah that's a pretty huge difference. This is the entire problem with the show - D+D seem to not care what stories, themes and character arcs are discarded so long as they can tick off their list of shocking events, so long as they can awkwardly revert the story back to book canon for a brief climax. They would agree with you - So long as Sansa is in the North with Vale Knights and the Boltons are defeated it doesn't matter how they got there. I would argue it absolutely does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Of course we can. We've seen her story in AFFC, and we saw D+D rush her into Darth Sansa mode. We can say with complete certainty that her current arc has been destroyed. The future is less certain, but we can still see the trajectory the story has sent her on, and that too has been ruined. Best case scenario they awkwardly try to steer her back on course, not that she was ever on course in the show anyway. I have very little faith that D+D will actually properly integrate her experience as Ramsay's wife into her future development. Maybe I am just blind to this course that she was on that they have destroyed. Please succinctly spell it out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewJeffCT Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 For me the fact remains that the show and books arrive at the same endpoint, and GRRM reaffirmed that fact just last week, AFTER the controversial scene. Getting to the same endpoint to me seems impossible now if Sansa's book story does not get extremely dark and twisted and get her to the same place mentally and geographically as this Ramsay marriage gets her. Harry the Heir is already known to be something of a lout. Sure, maybe Sansa can manipulate him, but that won't be enough to stop a drunken Harry from forcing himself onto Sansa and abusing her as well. Sure, he may not be a sadist like Ramsay, but it will be rape and abuse if he roughly tossed her onto a bed and had his way with a protesting Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Erm yeah that's a pretty huge difference. This is the entire problem with the show - D+D seem to not care what stories, themes and character arcs are discarded so long as they can tick off their list of shocking events, so long as they can awkwardly revert the story back to book canon for a brief climax. They would agree with you - So long as Sansa is in the North with Vale Knights and the Boltons are defeated it doesn't matter how they got there. I would argue it absolutely does. It would certainly be great if they could do everything that the books do, but the seasons would be 30 episodes long and cost 5 times as much, and that is impossible. Do you really think it would be better for her to continue to wallow away in the Vale doing nothing? Like I said in the previous post, I guess I am blind to the amazing arc that GRRM had her on that they have destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I agree that there isn't much difference in the outcome. But the NDA would protect against a lot of things. Number 1 it sure would be easier for D&D to answer book purist questions and concerns by saying don't worry Aegon will be dying soon in the books, that is why we cut him. Plus he is fake anyway and we didn't want to deal with that nonsense. It wouldn't detract from their story at all to reveal that. They cannot though because of the NDA. Isn't that obvious? I mean, that if he's cut, he's not important to the end game, whether he's real or fake? I'm just not sure that there are as many protections for GRRM as you think though I can see there would be something related to not divulging parts of the story ahead of time. I don't see how that would preclude them from saying, if they wanted to, that yes, Sansa ends up at Winterfell in the books, we chose to get her there by a different and faster route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 It would certainly be great if they could do everything that the books does, but the seasons would be 30 episodes long and cost 5 times as much, and that is impossible. Do you really think it would be better for her to continue to wallow away in the Vale doing nothing? Like I said in the previous post, I guess I am blind to the amazing arc that GRRM had her on that they have destroyed. Turning her into a willing victim of Ramsay Bolton of all people is a major departure and it is very, very unlikely that GRRM is going to turn her into that level of an abuse victim in the future. Harry is a party boy, irresponsible, vain, arrogant...there is nothing to indicate he would leave his wife covered in bruises. And never mind that having her marry into the family that destroyed her family for some hairbrained idea she's going to get revenge is fucking stupid. How is she supposed to get this revenge? Her children will be Boltons. The show basically simply redid her KL story only more violently, and they keep saying how she is different now, empowered, but I don't see it. She's not empowered, she's covered in fucking brusies. When she escapes that is escape, not empowerment. If they have her kill one of the Boltons, I would find that odd, because her thing is manipulation not outright violence and I would be surprised if GRRM is going to turn her into a version of Arya. So, to me, this show story feels very inauthentic and there for shock value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Maybe I am just blind to this course that she was on that they have destroyed. Please succinctly spell it out for me. Sansa's story is about her growing slowly but surely to become a player of the game. In the Eyrie she is still under LF's grip, but he begins to serve as a mentor to her and by the end of AFFC she is essentially running the day to day affairs of the Eyrie, that's pretty important. Her arc is about her gaining more and more agency and becoming a political force to be reckoned with. Perhaps more so than LF one day. In the show they promise us some heavy handed version of this with Darth Sansa. But then Sansa is raped and reduced to a pawn once more. Then this episode (throughout the season really), there are clumsy attempts to empower her - not through political scheming or subtle acts of resistance - but by picking up makeshift weapons and outright insulting her captor to his face. So they flip flop between completely victimising Sansa and making incredibly bad attempts at making her look "powerful". Empowerment through Rape is a very problematic trope to work with. In the hands of more skilled writers, who I have confidence in to write women well and respectfully I might accept it if it was done well. But I don't accept D+D doing it. Not to mention they've also wrecked Theon's arc if they want Sansa to be the more proactive one. His arc is supposed to be about snapping out of his stupor to help a poor little girl who no one else would help, who he doesn't even know very well. I'm not really a Sansa expert - there are plenty of posters who've analysed her far more than I have if you really want to know in detail just what a travesty this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 It would certainly be great if they could do everything that the books do, but the seasons would be 30 episodes long and cost 5 times as much, and that is impossible. Do you really think it would be better for her to continue to wallow away in the Vale doing nothing? Like I said in the previous post, I guess I am blind to the amazing arc that GRRM had her on that they have destroyed. This is just a strawman. It would have been perfectly possible to faithfully adapt the books into 7 or 8 seasons. It's not like you'd need to spend loads of time on Sansa's AFFC material. The problem is they rushed through it at the end of S3, rather then setting up someone to take the fall for Lysa's death and saving that scene for E9 or 10. They could have used her AFFC material in a modest but character driven S5 arc, appearing in maybe 4 or 5 episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Sansa's story is about her growing slowly but surely to become a player of the game. In the Eyrie she is still under LF's grip, but he begins to serve as a mentor to her and by the end of AFFC she is essentially running the day to day affairs of the Eyrie, that's pretty important. Her arc is about her gaining more and more agency and becoming a political force to be reckoned with. Perhaps more so than LF one day. In the show they promise us some heavy handed version of this with Darth Sansa. But then Sansa is raped and reduced to a pawn once more. Then this episode (throughout the season really), there are clumsy attempts to empower her - not through political scheming or subtle acts of resistance - but by picking up makeshift weapons and outright insulting her captor to his face. So they flip flop between completely victimising Sansa and making incredibly bad attempts at making her look "powerful". Empowerment through Rape is a very problematic trope to work with. In the hands of more skilled writers, who I have confidence in to write women well and respectfully I might accept it if it was done well. But I don't accept D+D doing it. Not to mention they've also wrecked Theon's arc if they want Sansa to be the more proactive one. His arc is supposed to be about snapping out of his stupor to help a poor little girl who no one else would help, who he doesn't even know very well. I'm not really a Sansa expert - there are plenty of posters who've analysed her far more than I have if you really want to know in detail just what a travesty this is. It seems as though you are stuck on the specifics of the arcs and not the general overall feel of them. I can appreciate that, but the adaptations cannot be 100% to book and any change would be met with frustrations from ardent fans of the book. Those fans make up a very small subset of show fans though. These types of mindset changes that occur in Sansa and Theon are very hard to show without inner monologue or empty scenes. I am sure that D&D believe that Sansa's and Theon's turning points will be that much more powerful with all this behind it though rushed and a bit clumsy as you have mentioned. They don't have time for the deliberate nature of GRRM's writing. Viewers are different that readers, they won't wait around forever to see the ending. Ask the creators of Lost if their viewers stayed around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilence Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 That is something I want more than anything. :D these two interacting together would be great on show.... maybe...with a lot of luck we'll get him *fingers crossed* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadwood Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Do they ever casting announcements in "waves"? Some Citadel Maesters/Maesters-in-training could get cast afterwards for the latter weeks of shooting? They cast as and when they need to. It's done in very small batches (3/3). With the most difficult parts to cast done first, and also normally the biggest (screentime) parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadwood Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 these two interacting together would be great on show.... maybe...with a lot of luck we'll get him *fingers crossed* That'd be cool, but my reason is 100% selfish,. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilence Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 That'd be cool, but my reason is 100% selfish,. :D Soso.. selfish... explain that! XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 It seems as though you are stuck on the specifics of the arcs and not the general overall feel of them. I can appreciate that, but the adaptations cannot be 100% to book and any change would be met with frustrations from ardent fans of the book. Those fans make up a very small subset of show fans though. These types of mindset changes that occur in Sansa and Theon are very hard to show without inner monologue or empty scenes. I am sure that D&D believe that Sansa's and Theon's turning points will be that much more powerful with all this behind it though rushed and a bit clumsy as you have mentioned. They don't have time for the deliberate nature of GRRM's writing. Viewers are different that readers, they won't wait around forever to see the ending. Ask the creators of Lost if their viewers stayed around How am I getting stuck on the specifics? "Sansa learns to be a player of the game and steadily gains more and more agency" is not specific. Even their hamfisted Dark Sansa route would have been better. D+D simply don't give a damn about Sansa. This has been clear since very early on. They simply don't know what to do with female characters who are classically feminine. Stop resorting to the tired old "there's not enough time!" argument please. It's a faulty argument that's been bought up time and time again by show apologists and is dismissed every time. They've got 70-80 hours. That's a lot of time to tell a story. How many book series get to be adapted into that length of time? The fact is that very few of D+D's changes save any time. They outright add in new plot lines like Dragonknapping, Craster's Keep, Hardholme, Jaime in Dorne, Theon torture scenes etc. Not to mention random brothel scenes especially in the earlier seasons. D+D don't use their time well. If they did we could have a much more faithful adaptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 If they did we could have a much more faithful adaptation. There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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