Season 6 Casting, Sightings and Speculations

[protar]

There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large.

I prefer to judge the adaptation on its own merits, rather than justifying the changes by saying "other TV shows have it worse." Many TV are worse adaptations. So what? That doesn't mean that D+D have been as faithful to the books as they can be, they've been failing abysmally since season 2 and especially since season 4.

The fact that True Blood or Walking Dead are incredibly unfaithful means nothing to me. That Game of Thrones is one of the more faithful adaptations is an indictment of the industry, not praise of D+D.

[Faint]

When the author himself is telling you that a faithful adaption is impossible, to use his word, you should take the hint -- or hints, as it were, since this is something he has said and/or written on repeated occasions.

[Newstar]

Would there really be that many new characters introduced at this stage of the game? We're into either the second-last or the third-last season. I'm not anticipating a huge wave of new castings.

It sounds like (what I imagine will be) the sacking of the Reach is going to be a big setpiece in TWOW. GRRM has said that Highgarden would be a future location, and I'm guessing it's because shit goes down there in the books.

As for the show spoiling the books, I think that if Tommen or Myrcella dies this season--and based on the season opening with Maggy's prophecy, I'm thinking at least one of them has to go--I don't know that that's much of a spoiler, since they were pretty clearly doomed. It wouldn't be a spoiler in the same way that Jojen's death wasn't a spoiler; we all figured it was coming.

With that said, there's a long list of things which seem to have been spoiled by the show, and that list is growing as the show goes on:

1. Sansa/Tyrion marriage gets annulled.

2. Sweetrobin survives the poisoning plot.

3. Sansa/Harry marriage either doesn't happen or is irrelevant.

4. Sansa doesn't become a power broker in the Vale.

5. Sansa is not going to stay permanently in her Alayne identity.

6. The Hound is alive.

7. Jon/Val is not endgame and Val will never be Jon's queen.

8. Penny dies or is irrelevant.

9. Victarion dies in the Battle of Meereen.

10. Barristan dies in the Battle of Meereen.

11. Aegon dies or is not the endgame king (I might be jumping the gun on this one, but I don't think Trystane is Aegon).

12. Arianne dies or is irrelevant.

13. Stannis dies (maybe a little early to call this one, but it's really not looking good for him at this point in Season 5).

14. Shireen dies.

15. Sam's journey to Oldtown is super-important.

16. Lady Stoneheart lets Jaime and Brienne go for some reason.

17. Dany's not the endgame queen (reaching a bit here, but the HOTU vision in the show showed Dany turning away from the throne, plus it's been hammered into our heads not so subtly this season that Dany is ill prepared to rule Westeros).

18. R+L = J.

19. Jeyne Westerling is not pregnant.

20. Theon was definitely castrated.

21. JonCon's greyscale is a big deal.

22. Jorah dies.

23. Tyrion and Dany meet.

24. Mance dies.

...Will probably keep editing this as other stuff occurs to me.

[protar]

When the author himself is telling you that a faithful adaption is impossible, to use his word, you should take the hint -- or hints, as it were, since this is something he has said and/or written on repeated occasions.

I'm not denying that changes would have to be made. But seriously? You're inferring from Martin's comments that Jaime in Dorne was inevitable? That Sansa in Winterfell was inevitable? Pod the rod, dragon knapping, craster's keep, talisa, Ros, shae the funny whore, Batfinger,the completely different characterisation for Cersei etc. etc. a thousand times etc.

That's the thing - you guys take technically true statements about how the show could not be 100% faithful and you then apply that to the myriad of different changes D+D make to the source material, changes which do not save time and often take up more time.

And in any case, Martin didn't think the books could be adapted at all. If he was wrong about that, maybe he was wrong about how difficult they are to adapt?

[protar]

Would there really be that many new characters introduced at this stage of the game? We're into either the second-last or the third-last season. I'm not anticipating a huge wave of new castings.

It sounds like (what I imagine will be) the sacking of the Reach is going to be a big setpiece in TWOW. GRRM has said that Highgarden would be a future location, and I'm guessing it's because shit goes down there in the books.

As for the show spoiling the books, I think that if Tommen or Myrcella dies this season--and based on the season opening with Maggy's prophecy, I'm thinking at least one of them has to go--I don't know that that's much of a spoiler, since they were pretty clearly doomed. It wouldn't be a spoiler in the same way that Jojen's death wasn't a spoiler; we all figured it was coming.

With that said, there's a long list of things which seem to have been spoiled by the show, and that list is growing as the show goes on:

1. Sansa/Tyrion marriage gets annulled.

2. Sweetrobin survives the poisoning plot.

3. Sansa/Harry marriage either doesn't happen or is irrelevant.

4. Sansa doesn't become a power broker in the Vale.

5. Sansa is not going to stay permanently in her Alayne identity.

6. The Hound is alive.

7. Jon/Val is not endgame and Val will never be Jon's queen.

8. Penny dies or is irrelevant.

9. Victarion dies in the Battle of Meereen.

10. Barristan dies in the Battle of Meereen.

11. Aegon dies or is not the endgame king (I might be jumping the gun on this one, but I don't think Trystane is Aegon).

12. Arianne dies or is irrelevant.

13. Stannis dies (maybe a little early to call this one, but it's really not looking good for him at this point in Season 5).

14. Shireen dies.

15. Sam's journey to Oldtown is super-important.

16. Lady Stoneheart lets Jaime and Brienne go for some reason.

17. Dany's not the endgame queen (reaching a bit here, but the HOTU vision in the show showed Dany turning away from the throne, plus it's been hammered into our heads not so subtly this season that Dany is ill prepared to rule Westeros).

18. R+L = J.

19. Jeyne Westerling is not pregnant.

20. Theon was definitely castrated.

21. JonCon's greyscale is a big deal.

22. Jorah dies.

23. Tyrion and Dany meet.

I don't think we can assume all of these things. As much as D+D claim the ending will be the same as in the books, the rate they're going the only similarities will be a battle with the Others and the final ruler(s) being the same. For example Sansa could very well become a huge political power in the Vale and take that army to the North. But the show will cut all of the political scheming behind that out and just have LF lead The Vale to the North no questions asked.

[Faint]

Would there really be that many new characters introduced at this stage of the game? We're into either the second-last or the third-last season. I'm not anticipating a huge wave of new castings.

If we take Benioff and Weiss at their word, and I see little why we should not since they have been truthful regarding this subject until now, the show will never have a larger principal cast than it did during the third season and it would contract from that point forward, which it has so far.

[Stan Man]

Turning her into a willing victim of Ramsay Bolton

willing

willing

willing

willing

willing

willing

A willing victim would not object to the marriage when Littlefinger suggested it, or try to save herself via Granny Remembers. If she had known what Ramsay was before she went to Winterfell, she would have flatly refused and probably run away from LF. I would fit Cersei into the willing victim category, since she endured years of rape from Robert in order to stay queen. Sansa got one taste of it and wants out.

I'm not denying that changes would have to be made. But seriously? You're inferring from Martin's comments that Jaime in Dorne was inevitable? That Sansa in Winterfell was inevitable? Pod the rod, dragon knapping, craster's keep, talisa, Ros, shae the funny whore, Batfinger,the completely different characterisation for Cersei etc. etc. a thousand times etc.

That's the thing - you guys take technically true statements about how the show could not be 100% faithful and you then apply that to the myriad of different changes D+D make to the source material, changes which do not save time and often take up more time.

And in any case, Martin didn't think the books could be adapted at all. If he was wrong about that, maybe he was wrong about how difficult they are to adapt?

Since Martin worked for television for a while, I think he knows what "can" or "cannot" be adapted into television - and by that, I mean successfully. D&D could have kept the Sansa/Vale storyline through Season 5, but it would be boring as hell. Even I knew they needed to change it.

Dorne is another story entirely, because that was adaptable without dispatching Jaime to Dorne. I think D&D misinterpreted what was good for television and what wasn't.

[Cas Stark]

We already knew most of the things on that list without the show.

The only things that to me are significant spoilers are that Aegon/Arianne are not important, Sansa ends up in the North, though that was also foreshadowed, Jorah dies, greyscale is very important, Oldtown is very important, Euron is very important, the nights king. I'm not sure the show has shown us that Robin survives or that Shireen dies. And we kind of knew Stannis was going to die before the end, but not so early as it appears in the show. And, sadly, that somehow the sand snakes are important enough they have to be included in the show.

[protar]

Since Martin worked for television for a while, I think he knows what "can" or "cannot" be adapted into television - and by that, I mean successfully. D&D could have kept the Sansa/Vale storyline through Season 5, but it would be boring as hell. Even I knew they needed to change it.

Dorne is another story entirely, because that was adaptable without dispatching Jaime to Dorne. I think D&D misinterpreted what was good for television and what wasn't.

This is not necessarily true. I mean first Martin thought that ASOIAF was entirely impossible to adapt - and indeed deliberately wrote it that way because he was tired of his scripts having to be scaled down. Then he seemed to think that Feast and Dance would be adapted into three seasons. Needless to say both predictions were wrong. GRRM has worked on television. He's not omniscient. And honestly I've never seen him say that the show could not be more faithful. He usually just points out even worse adaptations, mumbles about the butterfly effect and "the books are my baby and the show is their baby" and how D+D are doing the best they can.

[Newstar]

We already knew most of the things on that list without the show.

LOL, maybe you did. If the board members accepted all of the things on that list as 100% confirmed spoilers for the books that didn't need further discussion or questioning, it would eliminate at least 30% of the posts on the boards, and that's a conservative estimate.

I'm not sure the show has shown us that Robin survives or that Shireen dies.

He survives the poisoning plot, as the poisoning plot doesn't exist in the show. Nor is TV Sweetrobin epileptic or weak; he's immature, but he's physically sound. I doubt Book Sweetrobin's health will be the end of him. Doesn't mean he can't die through other means, but it won't be succumbing to his illness or to poison.

The show has been building towards Shireen being sacrificed for quite some time:

1. Shireen/Mel scene from a while back.

2. Mel insisting on Shireen going north with them.

3. Mel making cryptic remarks to Selyse about the Lord of Light's plans.

4. Selyse objecting to Shireen coming north with them.

5. Mel making some comment about Shireen having king's blood in her veins, and Selyse looking terrified.

6. Warm bonding scene between Stannis and Shireen where he talks about everything he did to save her life.

7. Mel urging Stannis to sacrifice Shireen.

8. Stannis facing a "difficult decision" according to a Season 5 episode description (5x08 or 5x09, can't remember which).

Doesn't mean D&D couldn't pull a bait and switch, but it's not looking good for her.

[Faint]

My own take on this subject:

1. Sansa/Tyrion marriage gets annulled. I think, like I have always thought, that it is simply irrelevant and no formal annulment is needed.

2. Sweetrobin survives the poisoning plot. I would not necessarily say that. I think there is still a strong chance that Littlefinger has him killed; the only definitive change the show has made so far is that now Littlefinger is the "heir" to the Vale and Harry does not exist.

3. Sansa/Harry marriage either doesn't happen or is irrelevant. I do not agree as to the marriage not happening but it might be the case that the only important thing to come of it is to have the Vale march on the North, which is being orchestrated by different means on the show.

4. Sansa doesn't become a power broker in the Vale. This has not been precluded; if anything, the scene between Littlefinger and Cersei puts this still very much on the table.

5. Sansa is not going to stay permanently in her Alayne identity. Agreed.

6. The Hound is alive. We already know this.

7. Jon/Val is not endgame and Val will never be Jon's queen. Agreed.

8. Penny dies or is irrelevant. Agreed, to an extent.

9. Victarion dies in the Battle of Meereen. Not necessarily but it is obvious that he is more of a plot enabler than a crucial character, whose role can be filled in other ways.

10. Barristan dies in the Battle of Meereen. Or he eventually dies, does not necessarily have to be in Meereen.

11. Aegon dies or is not the endgame king (I might be jumping the gun on this one, but I don't think Trystane is Aegon). Agreed, although kind of obvious even had the show not existed.

12. Arianne dies or is irrelevant. Agreed to the extent that other characters can cover her story.

13. Stannis dies (maybe a little early to call this one, but it's really not looking good for him at this point in Season 5). Way too early and, if anything, all evidence points to this not being resolved this season.

14. Shireen dies. Way too early but there are strong hints pointing in this direction both in the books and show.

15. Sam's journey to Oldtown is super-important. Agreed.

16. Lady Stoneheart lets Jaime and Brienne go for some reason. Agreed as to Jaime. I am more hesitant about Brienne but that is my guess as well.

17. Dany's not the endgame queen (reaching a bit here, but the HOTU vision in the show showed Dany turning away from the throne, plus it's been hammered into our heads not so subtly this season that Dany is ill prepared to rule Westeros). I think the book itself hints that she will die young and provides much more and better evidence on that score than the show does.

18. R+L = J. As if more confirmation was needed.

19. Jeyne Westerling is not pregnant. Agreed, although this idea was somewhat silly to begin with.

20. Theon was definitely castrated. Heavily implied in the books and confirmed on the show.

21. JonCon's greyscale is a big deal. Not sure what to think about this yet.

22. Jorah dies. Not necessarily; he is minor enough of a character that his fate could be changed.

23. Tyrion and Dany meet. We knew this already.

24. Mance dies. See number 22.

[protar]

1. Sansa/Tyrion marriage gets annulled. - Spoiled by the show, but not a huge plot point.

2. Sweetrobin survives the poisoning plot. - Not confirmed I'd say

3. Sansa/Harry marriage either doesn't happen or is irrelevant. - Not confirmed.

4. Sansa doesn't become a power broker in the Vale. - Don't see how this is confirmed.

5. Sansa is not going to stay permanently in her Alayne identity. - Really a given but ok.

6. The Hound is alive. - Not quite confirmed yet we don't know if the Elder Brother is the casting call. But a given anyway.

7. Jon/Val is not endgame and Val will never be Jon's queen. - Confirmed probably.

8. Penny dies or is irrelevant. - Confirmed

9. Victarion dies in the Battle of Meereen. - Well we'll see if Vic gets cast. But probably confirmed.

10. Barristan dies in the Battle of Meereen. - Very likely

11. Aegon dies or is not the endgame king (I might be jumping the gun on this one, but I don't think Trystane is Aegon). - I don't know anyone who thought he was the end game anyway.

12. Arianne dies or is irrelevant. - Not necessarily. We don't know just how much they are cutting out by cutting Aegon.

13. Stannis dies (maybe a little early to call this one, but it's really not looking good for him at this point in Season 5). - I don't see how this is confirmed, Stannis is at the same point he is in the books.

14. Shireen dies. - Looking likely, but not confirmed.

15. Sam's journey to Oldtown is super-important. - Agreed.

16. Lady Stoneheart lets Jaime and Brienne go for some reason. - They'll probably escape yes (most people thought that anyway though I believe). But maybe they both die at the end of S5?

17. Dany's not the endgame queen (reaching a bit here, but the HOTU vision in the show showed Dany turning away from the throne, plus it's been hammered into our heads not so subtly this season that Dany is ill prepared to rule Westeros). Hinted at but not confirmed.

18. R+L = J. Hinted at but not confirmed.

19. Jeyne Westerling is not pregnant. Not confirmed

20. Theon was definitely castrated. Confirmed but not much in dispute.

21. JonCon's greyscale is a big deal. Confirmed

22. Jorah dies. Likely but not confirmed. Especially with secondary and tertiary characters they may take characters on entirely different routes.

23. Tyrion and Dany meet. Already confirmed by Martin.

24. Mance dies. Again, the trajectories of secondary/tertiary characters may be completely different.

Some thoughts on supposed spoilers.

[Cas Stark]

LOL, maybe you did. If the board members accepted all of the things on that list as 100% confirmed spoilers for the books that didn't need further discussion or questioning, it would eliminate at least 30% of the posts on the boards, and that's a conservative estimate.

He survives the poisoning plot, as the poisoning plot doesn't exist in the show. Nor is TV Sweetrobin epileptic or weak; he's immature, but he's physically sound. I doubt Book Sweetrobin's health will be the end of him. Doesn't mean he can't die through other means, but it won't be succumbing to his illness or to poison.

The show has been building towards Shireen being sacrificed for quite some time:

1. Shireen/Mel scene from a while back.

2. Mel insisting on Shireen going north with them.

3. Mel making cryptic remarks to Selyse about the Lord of Light's plans.

4. Selyse objecting to Shireen coming north with them.

5. Mel making some comment about Shireen having king's blood in her veins, and Selyse looking terrified.

6. Warm bonding scene between Stannis and Shireen where he talks about everything he did to save her life.

7. Mel urging Stannis to sacrifice Shireen.

8. Stannis facing a "difficult decision" according to a Season 5 episode description (5x08 or 5x09, can't remember which).

Doesn't mean D&D couldn't pull a bait and switch, but it's not looking good for her.

Well, I mean when you have a fan base that takes seriously Daario being Euron Greyjoy and Mance being Rhaegar Targaryen [no offense if you are among the believers] there is literally no end to the crackpottery that will be championed up to and beyond the final book coming out. LOL.

ETA. Mel is going to for sure attempt to burn Shireen, whether she succeeds is another matter, though there is also some foreshadowing of her death in the books.

[Colonel Green]

He survives the poisoning plot, as the poisoning plot doesn't exist in the show. Nor is TV Sweetrobin epileptic or weak; he's immature, but he's physically sound. I doubt Book Sweetrobin's health will be the end of him. Doesn't mean he can't die through other means, but it won't be succumbing to his illness or to poison.

I don't think you can say that. The writers are pretty clearly massively condensing the events in the Vale, and seem largely to view it as a way to give Littlefinger/Sansa an army to use as expeditiously as possible.

[Newstar]

Well, I mean when you have a fan base that takes seriously Daario being Euron Greyjoy and Mance being Rhaegar Targaryen [no offense if you are among the believers] there is literally no end to the crackpottery that will be championed up to and beyond the final book coming out. LOL.

ETA. Mel is going to for sure attempt to burn Shireen, whether she succeeds is another matter, though there is also some foreshadowing of her death in the books.

To be fair to the fans, the things on that list run the spectrum from "Pretty much everyone thinks so, and to think otherwise is crackpottery" (R+L=J, Hound still being alive) to "It's perfectly plausible in the books, but the show seems to rule it out" (Val/Jon, Lady Stoneheart killing Jaime, Sweetrobin succumbing to the poison, etc.).

I don't think you can say that. The writers are pretty clearly massively condensing the events in the Vale, and seem largely to view it as a way to give Littlefinger/Sansa an army to use as expeditiously as possible.

TV Sweetrobin is as safe and protected as he could possibly be and has neither poisoning nor ill health to contend with. Also, TV LF and Sansa don't look like they'll be taking any detours to the Vale anytime soon. Sure, Sweetrobin could die in the books, and TV Littlefinger or Sansa could receive a raven saying BTW, Sweetrobin died unexpectedly, we have a succession crisis you need to sort out, but that's pretty unlikely, wouldn't you agree? All that adds up to there being no succession crisis in the Vale in the books: Book Sweetrobin isn't going anywhere.

[Faint]

I would say the biggest spoiler to come from the show is that Sansa will marry Harry the Heir because it looks certain now that the Vale will march on the North in the show and the only way that happens in the book is if Littlefinger's plot works -- at least until that point anyway.

So oddly enough, they might have confirmed a marriage happening in the books without even adapting it on the show, as strange as that sounds.

[Cas Stark]

I would say the biggest spoiler to come from the show is that Sansa will marry Harry the Heir because it looks certain now that the Vale will march on the North in the show and the only way that happens in the book is if Littlefinger's plot works -- at least until that point anyway.

So oddly enough, they might have confirmed a marriage happening in the books without even adapting it on the show, as strange as that sounds.

It's not really strange because this is how D&D think. They think, Sansa marries Harry in the books, gets the Vale and ends up at Winterfell...to them, Sansa marrying Ramsay and ending up at Winterfell is the same, because marriage/Vale army/Winterfell. I agree that it does confirm she marries.

I would still put Aegon as being irrelevant as the biggest spoiler since I retained some hope he must have been important or why throw him in there at the last minute like that, so to have the show confirm that so much of the last two books were irrelevant side tangents is depressing, but that's another discussion.

[The hairy bear]

Newstar,

I disagree almost entirely with your list of things suposedly spoiled by the show. Some of the thins you mentioned had already been all but confirmed in the books (the Hound being the gravedigger, Theon being castrated), were very obvious developments, (Alayne being revealed as Sansa is a no-brainer), where things widely assumed by fandom (I remember people suggesting that Stannis was going to sacrifice Shireen 15 years ago), or just discredits wild theories that never had much weight into it (Jon-Val, Jeyne being pregnant).

Remember that two weeks ago people was saying that the show had spoiled that Euron was not important because he had been cut. Now he appears in the casting call for next season and all of the sudden he is super-important. By the same logic, perhaps the last season will include a young boy with blue hair that's desinted to end sit in the Iron Throne.

[Faint]

I would still put Aegon as being irrelevant as the biggest spoiler since I retained some hope he must have been important or why throw him in there at the last minute like that, so to have the show confirm that so much of the last two books were irrelevant side tangents is depressing, but that's another discussion.

Fair enough, I do agree that is somewhat of a big spoiler. But did anybody truly believe that he would defeat Daenerys in light of the visions at the House of the Undying and the general hints about his cause being doomed (i.e., no dragons, greyscale, the cyvasse game with Tyrion, etc.)?

[tf13]

I truly truly hope they at least keep Euron's appearance the same. The patch, the eyes, the blue lips, all of it.