1,318 posts in this topic

I'm glad they cut her. I thought it was a mistake to do it in the books. It made a great dramatic reveal when it happens, but after that the idea just seems cheesy to me. I imagine they cut her for a couple of reasons. They thought it wouldn't work well on screen. They didn't want the actress to have to come back in heavy makeup and play a revenge seeking zombie. It also will take away from another resurrection that's bound to happen in the next book.



Finally, and probably the biggest reason, it's a dead end subplot. LS in the books may not go on once she's served her narrative purpose. I think it's once case where they show may have made the right decision changing things, though I'm admittedly biased because I think it's lame in the books.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because she is an easily expendable character in the adaptation and whatever role she has, it can be given to other characters or alltogether dismissed (which seems to be the case).

My guess in the books is that Brienne will champion Jaime in the trial by combat and save his lame ass. Then, Jaime will be free to return to KL but not Brienne as her oath to UnCat will still continue. However, she will remember that Cat swore to not hold her back should Brienne decide to seek vengeance against Stannis. So, Brienne will claim that and head North.

Seems like completely dismissible IMO.

Well luckily you're probably wrong.

Lady Stoneheart has been set up to have a huge impact on Jaime and Brienne's future storylines, the future of the riverlands (including a likely second Red Wedding at Riverrun), the fate of the Freys (particularly Lord Walder), and all this will likely have an impact on the second civil war/dance of the dragons/war of five kings (whatever you want to call it).

And I don't think Jaime will be given a trial by combat anyway. Jaime broke several promises made directly to Cat - he doesn't need a trial anymore than Merrett Frey did. Plus we know that months have passed between Brienne leading him away and the Epilogue of ADwD, which would suggest that the situation is not as simple as a trial by combat.

But really, regardless of what happens, Jaime and Catelyn's reunion should be one of the most dramatic encounters in the series so far. The last time they interacted, he had been a prisoner for months and she was the mother of the King in the North. But since then Jaime lost his hand, Joffrey was killed, Tyrion killed Tywin, and he's rejected Cersei; meanwhile Catelyn was literally killed, revived, and took up leadership of the Brotherhood without Banners, all whilst leading a guerrilla war against the Lannister/Tyrell/Bolton/Frey alliance and looking for her children.

But who cares about all that lol sending Jaime to Dorne is much more fun amirite?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well luckily you're probably wrong.

Lady Stoneheart has been set up to have a huge impact on Jaime and Brienne's future storylines, the future of the riverlands (including a likely second Red Wedding at Riverrun), the fate of the Freys (particularly Lord Walder), and all this will likely have an impact on the second civil war/dance of the dragons/war of five kings (whatever you want to call it).

And I don't think Jaime will be given a trial by combat anyway. Jaime broke several promises made directly to Cat - he doesn't need a trial anymore than Merrett Frey did. Plus we know that months have passed between Brienne leading him away and the Epilogue of ADwD, which would suggest that the situation is not as simple as a trial by combat.

But really, regardless of what happens, Jaime and Catelyn's reunion should be one of the most dramatic encounters in the series so far. The last time they interacted, he had been a prisoner for months and she was the mother of the King in the North. But since then Jaime lost his hand, Joffrey was killed, Tyrion killed Tywin, and he's rejected Cersei; meanwhile Catelyn was literally killed, revived, and took up leadership of the Brotherhood without Banners, all whilst leading a guerrilla war against the Lannister/Tyrell/Bolton/Frey alliance and looking for her children.

But who cares about all that lol sending Jaime to Dorne is much more fun amirite?

Obviously, the show mostly skipped those arguably huge impacts you seem to attribute to UnCat and her reunion with Jaime. Stannis is likely to win an easy victory against the Boltons if they are not powered up in the future episodes. Perhaps Stannis will be the one to bring justice to the Freys. Or perhaps the Freys will wait until Dany comes. Yes the show left Blackfish and Edmure dangling but the more they dangle, they less they are likely to be given screen time. And the Second Dance of Dragons is being less likely each passing day.

And which promises Jaime broke to Cat in the books?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously, the show mostly skipped those arguably huge impacts you seem to attribute to UnCat and her reunion with Jaime. Stannis is likely to win an easy victory against the Boltons if they are not powered up in the future episodes. Perhaps Stannis will be the one to bring justice to the Freys. Or perhaps the Freys will wait until Dany comes. Yes the show left Blackfish and Edmure dangling but the more they dangle, they less they are likely to be given screen time. And the Second Dance of Dragons is being less likely each passing day.

And which promises Jaime broke to Cat in the books?

Jaime swore an oath not to take up arms against House Tully. It's one of his central conflicts in AFfC, as he tries to find a way to force the Blackfish to submit without breaking the promise he made to Catelyn. He thinks he succeeded by ending the siege of Riverrun without violence, but Stoneheart does not see it that way. And that ties back into the major theme surrounding Jaime, Brienne and Catelyn of the futility of vows:

“So many vows... they make you swear and swear. [...] It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime swore an oath not to take up arms against House Tully. It's one of his central conflicts in AFfC, as he tries to find a way to force the Blackfish to submit without breaking the promise he made to Catelyn. He thinks he succeeded by ending the siege of Riverrun without violence, but Stoneheart does not see it that way. And that ties back into the major theme surrounding Jaime, Brienne and Catelyn of the futility of vows:

He didnot break that vow. He didnot take arms against House Tully. He made a threat and it worked. We do not know how Stoneheart sees that yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He didnot break that vow. He didnot take arms against House Tully. He made a threat and it worked. We do not know how Stoneheart sees that yet.

You're right - I just double checked the Brienne chapter where she encounters Stoneheart, and she does not mention the vow.

However, my original point still stands: Stoneheart has absolutely no intention of giving Jaime a trial, and there's certainly no chance she'll let his fate be decided through a trial by combat against Brienne. If Jaime survives (and that seems most likely, we both agree), I'm sure it'll come with a price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right - I just double checked the Brienne chapter where she encounters Stoneheart, and she does not mention the vow.

However, my original point still stands: Stoneheart has absolutely no intention of giving Jaime a trial, and there's certainly no chance she'll let his fate be decided through a trial by combat against Brienne. If Jaime survives (and that seems most likely, we both agree), I'm sure it'll come with a price.

Even the Hound was given a trial. Stoneheart's grip at the BwB is not absolute because Thoros and people who are with him think that they are drifting away from their original purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would feel very let down with Jaime's redemption arc if it ends with being hung by LSH and BwB


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even the Hound was given a trial. Stoneheart's grip at the BwB is not absolute because Thoros and people who are with him think that they are drifting away from their original purpose.

That was the BwB before LSH. Who's to say that she'll grant one for Jaime. And yes, there is a schism growing in the organization. Not sure that LSH and her merry gang might not be together for much longer. Either way, it is very unlikely that he dies at this confrontation. I was worried for Brienne not making it but now that there is so much speculation about her heading North after Stannis, I'd say LSH seems to be shaping up to be a slight detour for these characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would feel very let down with Jaime's redemption arc if it ends with being hung by LSH and BwB

I agree. Jaime has to do a few more things before his time is up. And I think we'll see vengeance against Walder Frey in book & season 6.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad they cut her. I thought it was a mistake to do it in the books. It made a great dramatic reveal when it happens, but after that the idea just seems cheesy to me. I imagine they cut her for a couple of reasons. They thought it wouldn't work well on screen. They didn't want the actress to have to come back in heavy makeup and play a revenge seeking zombie. It also will take away from another resurrection that's bound to happen in the next book.

Finally, and probably the biggest reason, it's a dead end subplot. LS in the books may not go on once she's served her narrative purpose. I think it's once case where they show may have made the right decision changing things, though I'm admittedly biased because I think it's lame in the books.

Amen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was the BwB before LSH. Who's to say that she'll grant one for Jaime. And yes, there is a schism growing in the organization. Not sure that LSH and her merry gang might not be together for much longer. Either way, it is very unlikely that he dies at this confrontation. I was worried for Brienne not making it but now that there is so much speculation about her heading North after Stannis, I'd say LSH seems to be shaping up to be a slight detour for these characters.

Agreed. If you reread the part where Brienne swore to Cat, the only term Brienne demanded was this:

"And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis.”

Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying that Robb’s turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck. “When the time comes, I will not hold you back.”

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly’s longsword, and laid it at her feet. “Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or... whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new.”

“And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise.”

Brienne will keep her promise by bringing Jaime to UnCat and she will champion Jaime in the trial by combat. After she wins (by possibly slaying Lem), she will remind UnCat this oath and tell her that she will go North to avenge Renly. UnCat will not be able to stop her, nor Jaime. This way, she seems to get on her way to North.

Edited by Mithras

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“When the time comes, I will not hold you back.”

Brienne will keep her promise by bringing Jaime to UnCat and she will champion Jaime in the trial by combat. After she wins (by possibly slaying Lem), she will remind UnCat this oath and tell her that she will go North to avenge Renly. UnCat will not be able to stop her, nor Jaime.

If it plays out that way, I will not be able to stop laughing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it plays out that way, I will not be able to stop laughing.

Well, that term was put for a reason. And in the show, Brienne is still determined to slay Stannis. And she is going North.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can debate plot condensing, dwindling screen time, actor availability or any other rationale until the cows come home. My gut feeling is that they lack the nerve and confidence to have successfully pulled it off.



Dragons aside (who from their birthing to the present have been brilliantly handled) the supernatural aspects of the show are usually handled … well, badly.



Either they cutaway completely due to budget, (fist of the first men?) give us about 60 seconds of white walkers per season or else they fail to stick the landing (shadow baby, for example, was well set up with the Melisandre birthing scene then horribly executed entering Renly’s tent with all the subtlety of the smoke monster from Lost. Not hard to see how, with greater subtlety, that scene could've been deeply unsettling, i.e: Renly’s shadow suddenly moving incongruously to his own movements on the wall.)



Ditto, the practically non-existent direwolwes – another casualty of the Stoneheart excision in Arya’s case since at no point have they established her psychic connection to Nymeria: something they could’ve done quite easily via nightmares of her mother being thrown into the river before switching the p.o.v to Nymeria dragging out a body for the brotherhood to find.



It’s as if, because of all its acting strengths elsewhere & overarching emphasis on King’s Landing, we’re not supposed to notice the conspicuous weakness of the show as supernatural/fantasy at all. But when you go back through and watch it from the top, the mystical & supernatural aspects of the show have been the weak link from the start and certainly since Pyatt Pree and The House of The Undying, which surgically removed almost every interesting nuance. Okay sure, you pass up the spoiler/prophetic R/W imagery of the guy with the wolf’s head sitting on the throne, but the five rat midgets in a dark room feasting on the woman symbolising Westeros being ravaged by the war of the five kings? How do you pass up incredible visual symbolism ripe for adaptation to a visual medium like that if you know what you’re doing?



While I hold D& D in huge regard and respect for all that they’ve achieved in bringing G.O.T. to the screen in terms of knowing what they’re doing, repeatedly the handling of the supernatural aspects works against that better feeling and convinces me they sometimes don’t.



Of course, things have to be cut and slimmed down for any adaptation from book to screen to work. I get that argument totally, and am sick of hearing it as an excuse. When you witness the umpteenth superfluous brothel scene, crappy CG skeletons that feel completely out of place, or downright weaker material like The Mountain’s resurrection making the cut at the same time as the stronger supernatural content with powerful emotional resonance is going AWOL, it becomes an exercise in frustration as much as anything.



Ultimately, Lady Stoneheart appears to be gone and my feeling if she is, is that once this thing is done & dusted, they’ll regret it as the great missed opportunity they let slip through their fingers. Certainly from a horror perspective, where only the (often rather cheesy) White Walkers are ever really given that role.



The better news is if she HAD made the cut, there’s every chance it wouldn’t have been Michelle Fairley in top drawer prosthetics (i.e: crème-de-la-crème of Walking Dead effects crew involvement) which is what the plotline deserved. Based on past experience of almost every supernatural moment (up to and including Bloodraven) I’d been looking forward to seeing realised on screen, there’s every chance they would have fudged it somehow: glowing eyes that made non readers think she’d been white-walkered, an OTT Harvey Dent-style look (half woman, half CG skeletal terminator!) or even worse: 100% CGI like those awful Harryhausen-homage skeletons in The Children. Something to mess it up or cheapen it somehow would have slipped into the mix when it’s pretty clear the ONLY way to go with Stoneheart to have her make the “holy shit!” emotional as well as horror gut-punch, visually, is a recognisable Fairley in restrained, believable prosthetics.



You only have to look at some of the great fan art/photoshopping out there to realise this route could've made it the most haunting plotline of the show: http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2014/232/d/e/lady_stoneheart_by_slothmaker-d7vzl29.png



That road would have floored a lot of people, but is it the road they would’ve taken with the clock ticking and their budget against the wall? I doubt it.



So don’t entirely mourn its loss.



Someone once made the point on here it’s better to never see a character adapted that you loved than to see them on screen done badly, and I’d agree with that.



I’ll still watch the show, still support it, and still cheer on the many things it gets right. But this, along with dropping the Riverlands plotlines with Jaime, Brienne & Edmure was a clusterfuck, imo, and if the emphasis now is simply on racing to the finish line, then I guess you start to see the casualties of that more clearly.



The sad thing is that done right (i.e: tragic monster not zombie schlock) I think Stoneheart genuinely could’ve been one of the bravest, boldest moments in the show’s entire run as opposed to the jumping-the-shark moment they secretly probably feared.



We’ll never know for sure of course – creative cold feet or expediency? – but did they chicken out?



Quite probably.


Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is a camp of people out there who find resurrection not a very interesting fantasy but do find dragons a very entertaining fantasy I am in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can debate plot condensing, dwindling screen time, actor availability or any other rationale until the cows come home. My gut feeling is that they lack the nerve and confidence to have successfully pulled it off.

Dragons aside (who from their birthing to the present have been brilliantly handled) the supernatural aspects of the show are usually handled … well, badly.

Either they cutaway completely due to budget, (fist of the first men?) give us about 60 seconds of white walkers per season or else they fail to stick the landing (shadow baby, for example, was well set up with the Melisandre birthing scene then horribly executed entering Renly’s tent with all the subtlety of the smoke monster from Lost. Not hard to see how, with greater subtlety, that scene could've been deeply unsettling, i.e: Renly’s shadow suddenly moving incongruously to his own movements on the wall.)

Ditto, the practically non-existent direwolwes – another casualty of the Stoneheart excision in Arya’s case since at no point have they established her psychic connection to Nymeria: something they could’ve done quite easily via nightmares of her mother being thrown into the river before switching the p.o.v to Nymeria dragging out a body for the brotherhood to find.

It’s as if, because of all its acting strengths elsewhere & overarching emphasis on King’s Landing, we’re not supposed to notice the conspicuous weakness of the show as supernatural/fantasy at all. But when you go back through and watch it from the top, the mystical & supernatural aspects of the show have been the weak link from the start and certainly since Pyatt Pree and The House of The Undying, which surgically removed almost every interesting nuance. Okay sure, you pass up the spoiler/prophetic R/W imagery of the guy with the wolf’s head sitting on the throne, but the five rat midgets in a dark room feasting on the woman symbolising Westeros being ravaged by the war of the five kings? How do you pass up incredible visual symbolism ripe for adaptation to a visual medium like that if you know what you’re doing?

While I hold D& D in huge regard and respect for all that they’ve achieved in bringing G.O.T. to the screen in terms of knowing what they’re doing, repeatedly the handling of the supernatural aspects works against that better feeling and convinces me they sometimes don’t.

Of course, things have to be cut and slimmed down for any adaptation from book to screen to work. I get that argument totally, and am sick of hearing it as an excuse. When you witness the umpteenth superfluous brothel scene, crappy CG skeletons that feel completely out of place, or downright weaker material like The Mountain’s resurrection making the cut at the same time as the stronger supernatural content with powerful emotional resonance is going AWOL, it becomes an exercise in frustration as much as anything.

Ultimately, Lady Stoneheart appears to be gone and my feeling if she is, is that once this thing is done & dusted, they’ll regret it as the great missed opportunity they let slip through their fingers. Certainly from a horror perspective, where only the (often rather cheesy) White Walkers are ever really given that role.

The better news is if she HAD made the cut, there’s every chance it wouldn’t have been Michelle Fairley in top drawer prosthetics (i.e: crème-de-la-crème of Walking Dead effects crew involvement) which is what the plotline deserved. Based on past experience of almost every supernatural moment (up to and including Bloodraven) I’d been looking forward to seeing realised on screen, there’s every chance they would have fudged it somehow: glowing eyes that made non readers think she’d been white-walkered, an OTT Harvey Dent-style look (half woman, half CG skeletal terminator!) or even worse: 100% CGI like those awful Harryhausen-homage skeletons in The Children. Something to mess it up or cheapen it somehow would have slipped into the mix when it’s pretty clear the ONLY way to go with Stoneheart to have her make the “holy shit!” emotional as well as horror gut-punch, visually, is a recognisable Fairley in restrained, believable prosthetics.

You only have to look at some of the great fan art/photoshopping out there to realise this route could've made it the most haunting plotline of the show: http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2014/232/d/e/lady_stoneheart_by_slothmaker-d7vzl29.png

That road would have floored a lot of people, but is it the road they would’ve taken with the clock ticking and their budget against the wall? I doubt it.

So don’t entirely mourn its loss.

Someone once made the point on here it’s better to never see a character adapted that you loved than to see them on screen done badly, and I’d agree with that.

I’ll still watch the show, still support it, and still cheer on the many things it gets right. But this, along with dropping the Riverlands plotlines with Jaime, Brienne & Edmure was a clusterfuck, imo, and if the emphasis now is simply on racing to the finish line, then I guess you start to see the casualties of that more clearly.

The sad thing is that done right (i.e: tragic monster not zombie schlock) I think Stoneheart genuinely could’ve been one of the bravest, boldest moments in the show’s entire run as opposed to the jumping-the-shark moment they secretly probably feared.

We’ll never know for sure of course – creative cold feet or expediency? – but did they chicken out?

Quite probably.

Great post. Thank you so much for this.

Edited by Inquisitor Trevelyan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can debate plot condensing, dwindling screen time, actor availability or any other rationale until the cows come home. My gut feeling is that they lack the nerve and confidence to have successfully pulled it off.

You followed this statement up with a ton of text, but at no point do you justify your claim that cutting Stoneheart betrays a lack of nerve, confidence, or (as you say later) boldness. What does that even mean? What is "bold" about the Stoneheart character, exactly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't miss Catelyn alive or dead. And they've removed 90% of the slogging through the riverlands and the horrors of war on the smallfolk. Also, they're trying to get us pumped to have the actual surviving Starks take their revenge on houses Frey and Bolton.


Edited by Lazarová

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now