[Book Spoilers]What was really wrong with Hound v Brienne

[ummester]

Quotes don't seem to be working? Anyway's, I'm agreeing with the comment that suggests in the book Hound was there for Arya's and would add Sansa's character development. He was a mentor character for the Momomyths, like Ned.

In the show, the hound, like all of the characters, develop more a life of their own - not necessarily in support of Monomyths, POVs and so on. The become unique visual entity's in their own right, It's just a difference between the mediums.

As a unique visual entity, Show Hound requires something flashy for the big final scene, where book Hound did not.

[GallowsKnight]

At the risk of extreme crudness, people tend to overlook that Sandor's shitting was interrupted. We don't know the exact details. But that's why I figure he lost the fight. Ever been interrupted or try to do anything important needing to crap?

[Jerpp]

Even the best woman fighter can not beat a very good male fighter, hell even just an above average trained fighter. MMA woman fighters have tried this.

Maybe if it were a really favorable matchup - for example against Loras where she has a clear size advantage - it could work.

But even after all of that all they had to do was just emphasize that the Hound was already dying due to his wound and war seriously weakened. That's it and I would buy it.

I understand that the show has to pander to feminists, but atleast pay for our dinner before you f*** us guys.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

My only problem was Brienne out raging Sandor. Nobody outrages Sandor except perhaps his brother.

[DorneStorm80]

Thanks for the comments everyone. What I was trying to do with this post was move the discussion about this scene away from the pointless debate about whether a girl can beat a boy in a fight. It seems to me that this scene is a very significant change from the books in terms of what we should think about the hound. I think it is a bad change but even if you disagree I think it is worth talking about.

I think it's bad for the story even though I think the scene itself is very good. I just feel that the writers have sacrificed the story in order to create a good scene.

I think my point about it being a comic book fight has been misunderstood. I wasn't commenting on what the fight looked like or how realistic it was. What I mean is that there is a popular strand of comic books that divide people into ordinary people and super people (some are heroes and others are villains). Watching super people beat up ordinary people gets boring after a while so what we really want are showdowns between super people. I felt that this fight scene came across a bit like that, but that seems to fly in the face of what game of thrones is trying to do. I can just imagine a bunch of people sitting around in the writers' room trying to come up with ideas for the episode and somebody says "hey, you know what would be cool, to see the hound fight brienne", and someone replies "but how would fit in the story?" "Who cares, it will look awesome."

I'm by no means a show fan overall, but I think D + D knocked this one out of the park...maybe the best scene of the whole series for me.

It fits perfectly into each character's developments...and that's why it's tragic and believable.

Brienne: ...so wanting to finish a righteous quest and finally fulfill an oath to its completion...but being misread as a Lannister mercenary.

Hound: ....in the midst of a grudging atonement of behavior...but being misread as an irredeemable miscreant/molester.

There's no time here to think things through, based on the prejudiced assessments each has about the other...For the Hound, this Lannister mercenary wants to kill him... right now. For Brienne, if she doesn't eliminate the Hound, he will continue to rape and torture Arya.

There's no reason for them to fight? There's every reason each must be eliminated at that point.

The only character who could de-fuse the collision is Arya...and unfortunately--but completely understandably--she's siding with the Hound. She knows him, and knows he's not a threat. We know Brienne is not a threat--but Arya doesn't.

And even then, the writers throw in a last bit of wise logic from the Hound, who berates Brienne about the hypothetical that even if she is the "white knight" in this fight...what good would it do Arya? What "good" sanctuary is left for Arya?

The build-up is quick yet so organic and realistic...Both have been trained to kill, if necessary...Based on the evidence, they need to kill...so...they have to fight, based on the objective: Arya.

The tragedy is that neither gets her--she slips away. The Hound is left to a tortuous, lingering mortality. Brienne has apparently screwed up another mission, with nothing but injuries and a near-death trauma in her grasp.

I would say that, yes, it does look awesome...but for once in this series, it actually means something--no, not in determining who sits on what royal chair, but in showing a heartbreaking but realistic missed opportunity for each of those characters.

[ummester]

My only problem was Brienne out raging Sandor. Nobody outrages Sandor except perhaps his brother.

Sandor was infected because of his neck, so was not at full strength. I found it plausible Brienne could go some rage rounds with him in that state.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Sandor was infected because of his neck, so was not at full strength. I found it plausible Brienne could go some rounds with him in that state.

Wasn't there some other injury he had too?

[rocksniffer]

i liked it. i think brienne won cause the hound wasn't at his best...or even close to his best. if we are to believe the neck injury had mortified then he was on death's doorstep anyway....

Pod was the putz in this scene, something i didn't like...

[Nihlus]

I like how she somehow beat him in a hand to hand brawl even though he has SIXTY POUNDS on her, crippling neck wound be damned. I also liked when Sandor punched Brienne in the face with his mailed fist and she was just fine afterwards, not even showing any signs of injury in that episode or the episode immediately after. Realistic.

I do agree that his original 'death' was far better. It fit the recurring idea that no matter how badass you are, you're still human. Drogo gets a cut and dies from an infection because he's a moron. Jaime gets captured by some no-names and gets his hand cut off. Gregor wins his battle but then dies from poison. Robert Baratheon degenerates into a fat slob and gets killed by a wild animal. Arthur Dayne and his two almost-as-badass partners get taken down by men with no particularly great combat talent (well, compared to other noblemen) because they were outnumbered 7 to 3. And Sandor Clegane goes down to three regular men-at-arms in a bar fight that he actually won (though that wouldn't have been the case if not for Arya killing the squire), because he took crippling wounds in the process. An inglorious and ultimately pointless end for the Hound.

[Graven]

i liked it. i think brienne won cause the hound wasn't at his best...or even close to his best. if we are to believe the neck injury had mortified then he was on death's doorstep anyway....

Pod was the putz in this scene, something i didn't like...

And the Valyrian steel on top of that.

I like Brienne, she is one of the legitimate and rare good people out there, but the show did promote her a lot, in the books she is not comfortable with the idea of killing, and she struggles vs Rorge and Biter, in the show, she killed those men in the road without hesitation, then she makes short work of Jaime, sure he was weak and with his hands tied, but in the books i recall she having a hard time even then, and gets to fight and win against the hound.

[atheron70]

I feel as though I disliked the outcome for different reasons then most, which is that I absolutely dislike the character of Brienne (particularly in the show). Even in the first episode of season 5, I find her singular mindset to be utterly dull and annoying. She roams around Westeros trying to fulfill one oath or the other if only for the sake of fulfilling her oath. What I mean is, she found Arya and Arya refused to go. Rather than admit her defeat, she chose to fight Clegane, beat him, and still lost Arya. It just made the Hound's death feel rather silly, and I just don't understand how people enjoy Brienne's single-minded perseverance. It's admirable. MAYBE, but just boring. She's going to end up 0 for 2 on the Stark girls and my money is she'll just keep on trudging after them despite their reluctance. And I find it boring. What fun is a character who spends their time following other characters around?

[JonSnowGOAT]

I feel as though I disliked the outcome for different reasons then most, which is that I absolutely dislike the character of Brienne (particularly in the show). Even in the first episode of season 5, I find her singular mindset to be utterly dull and annoying. She roams around Westeros trying to fulfill one oath or the other if only for the sake of fulfilling her oath. What I mean is, she found Arya and Arya refused to go. Rather than admit her defeat, she chose to fight Clegane, beat him, and still lost Arya. It just made the Hound's death feel rather silly, and I just don't understand how people enjoy Brienne's single-minded perseverance. It's admirable. MAYBE, but just boring. She's going to end up 0 for 2 on the Stark girls and my money is she'll just keep on trudging after them despite their reluctance. And I find it boring. What fun is a character who spends their time following other characters around?

I agree completely.

[Pashernate Reader]

And Pod follows her around.

[Sir Bronn]

Brienne was very good ,but The Hound was 1 class higher.The Hound was infected ,tired and that's why Brienne won.I can understand that Brienne could win sword fight in these circumstances ,but on the fists she was no match for the Hound and for me this fights ruins the Hound a bit,because those who only watched shows will think that Brienne>Hound and that annoys me!

[Dagon]

When the hound grabs the Valarian blade shouldn't his fingers have sliced off?

Yup.

[Pod The Impaler]

My personal feeling...

It was a good on-screen fight, and I do not have a problem with the general outcome, but I think it could have been prefaced a bit better in regard to both the outcome and the reason why the fight took place at all:

- Some reference to The Hound being already ill; Arya might have said "you can be sick later" instead, and it would have been enough.

- As Brienne realized he's the Hound, the Hound realizes that's Tyrion's squire / Ser Ilyn's nephew that Brienne's travelling with, and says so. The Hound would know that boy, and see her Lannister allegiances (not by her sword and armour, which could reinforce the point, not make it on its own).

- This would also make a better set up for how Arya escapes. While Brienne is fighting the Hound, she clobbers Podrick Payne with rock or something, before sneaking off. Pod comes to, and by then she's gone.

- After the fight (in season 5, Ep1), they should have shown Brienne injured from the fight as well. These two beat the stuffing out of each other, with many a blow to the face on both sides. The Hound's the strongest & toughest person she's ever fought; even winning, she should look like hell. Instead of just plain sulking, Brienne should have a swollen / bruised face and broken lip at least. Show her feeling mentally and physically beaten. Just that slight touch of realism makes a great improvement. (And as makeup effects go, fake cuts and bruises are minor stuff.)

- And yes, the Hound's Valyrian-blade-grab is... problematic.

[roxWolfox]

Meh. Catelyn still had her fingers intact after grabbing a Valarian blade.

It was brutal, and something no-one wanted to see happen, but it did. The Hound had to bite it, and Brienne needed to have a big battle. Both needs were met.

I just reread the Twitter Recap from last year (on WIC site), and the reactions from book readers was classic. I couldn't watch the scene the night it aired, but I did watch it on my second viewing, and it shook me to the core...much more than the RW did. Kudos to DnD for making me wail.