Sansa's Empowerment Arc & The Future

[hallam]

You have a point here. I would add that LF little plan involves travelling with Sansa up north then returning and telling Cersei that the Bolton's got Sansa and somehow Cersei not realizing anything about LF involvement. There are plenty of plot holes.

Cersei has made an incompetent Master of Whispers. LF is clever enough to deceive Qyburn.

Ever done intelligence analysis? It isn't as easy as you might imagine.

this is not the middle ages (unless Henry VII had a few dragons I forgot about) this is Westeros, a world where GRRM made it clear that homosexuality is not a mortal sin in the eyes of the Seven and most people in Westeros (though they dislike it) don't view it as a complete aberration, just something to mock Loras over,

That is your interpretation of the books. The showrunners have decided that a plot based on anti-gay religious bigots will make more sense to their audience than the plot you would like. Tough nougies, they are in charge.

It is also clear that brothels are OK in Westeros, until the Sparrows show up.

1) Did you actually read the complaints about the Loras scene? A lot of the "stupid people" who didn't like it clearly understood that it would be important for Loras's arrest, but that doesn't mean it was "necessary" or "good" for that matter.

People were mad because, once again, D&D were using Loras's character BECAUSE he is gay, and that they were using homosexuality as a tool for plot.

2) We're not in medieval England, we're on Westeros, a kingdom where we have no written proof that homosexuality is a mortal sin.

1) I read the interminable whines and no, nobody who was whining realized that it was likely to be a plot device until I and several other pointed it out for the fifth or sixth time. Some people refused to believe it was going to be a plot point even after we pointed out that there was a cue in the scene.

2) The show makes its own rules. I can see very good reasons why GRRM might not want to make anti-gay bigotry a High Sparrow issue, the character looks set to be more important in the next book than this for a start. Whining about the show runners making a connection between the bigotry of the High Sparrow and Rick Santorum is pathetic.

No, the series isn't. However, the character arc of Sansa Stark is. That's the entire purpose of the character's existence. To have 'character growth'.

No, the purpose could be to show that people like that end up as roadkill in Westeros.

No it isn't taken out of context, he is talking about people adapting his work and playing around with his characters and to quote later on "And that's Wild Cards. A world and characters created to be shared. It's not at all the same with Ice & Fire. No one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but me."

Wrong, he said that in the context of a rant about being paid for his work. He has been paid plenty to make GoT, he accepted they would play with his characters, they have his express permission.

[ARYa_Nym]

it is showing a spectacular lack of awareness, she would not have survived without Yoren, Gendry, The Hound and Jaquen, if she thinks he did everything on her own she is stupid, she should have realised that her greatest skill is that she could adapt and make friends and manipulate and form a new pack quickly when she loses an old one, Bran is self aware enough to know that without Hodor he would be dead, and uses that I am not saying Arya has nothing to be upset about my problem is the way she expressed it, and if she does try to lone wolf like Jon did and Robb did (both pissed off their "pack") she will die

Where did she say she did everything on her own? She didn't. What she said was that she was alone now at the time she was in Braavos. & that is true. She also said that Jaqen wasn't really her friend. To be confused and think that they were actually comrades and he was a member of her pack would show that she lacks awareness of what the situation really was.

But helping her doesn't mean they genuinely cared or in her friend's case that they wanted to stay with her. The latter is one thing that the show did well. When she tells Gendry I can be your family and he essentially tells her no. He does not want a life where she is his lady and he has to follow her orders. In his mind the power dynamic is not as equals and he at the time wanted to make his own way with the BWB. He would not have made it without her either. Comparably, just because he saw the realities of his present situation doesn't mean that he never realized what she did for him nor in turn just because she realized her present situation it doesn't mean that she didn't understand that she had help. What does help in the past matter when she is in a country where she does not know anyone or the language and she needs immediate help now? She is not dumb because she realizes that they are not there and cannot help her now.

She did make new friends. Hell, she has more friends in Braavos then she ever did when she was off on the road in the Riverlands.

[Sultan of Westeros]

it is showing a spectacular lack of awareness, she would not have survived without Yoren, Gendry, The Hound and Jaquen, if she thinks he did everything on her own she is stupid, she should have realised that her greatest skill is that she could adapt and make friends and manipulate and form a new pack quickly when she loses an old one, Bran is self aware enough to know that without Hodor he would be dead, and uses that I am not saying Arya has nothing to be upset about my problem is the way she expressed it, and if she does try to lone wolf like Jon did and Robb did (both pissed off their "pack") she will die

She is just a child who saw her father getting decapitated, witnessed the horrors of war during her travels, survived incarnation by brave companion and at harrenhall, saw the head of her brother's wolf sewn onto his own and saw body of her mother lying on river bank. Give her a break if she has some misconstrued feelings and opinions.

[OldGimletEye]

we don't how LFs plans turn out. so how we can say they're stupid?

A mind numbingly dumb idea can sometimes work out. And sometimes a brilliant idea can fail. The bottom line is that LF entrusted his most valuable political asset to a bunch of bozos, whom he knew little about. That was extremely risky and stupid and really not necessary given the loyalty of the Vale to him and Cersei's weak political position.

The person whose approval LF really needs is Sansa Stark's and not Cersei Lannister's or Roose Boltons or Stannis Baratheon's. But, he has probably pissed that approval away with his scheme.

But, I guess D & D needed LF to look like an extreme risk taking idiot in order to have their Sansa/Ramsay scene.

[RJDLM]

Where did she say she did everything on her own? She didn't. What she said was that she was alone now at the time she was in Braavos. & that is true. She also said that Jaqen wasn't really her friend. To be confused and think that they were actually comrades and he was a member of her pack would show that she lacks awareness of what the situation really was.

But helping her doesn't mean they genuinely cared or in her friend's case that they wanted to stay with her. The latter is one thing that the show did well. When she tells Gendry I can be your family and he essentially tells her no. He does not want a life where she is his lady and he has to follow her orders. In his mind the power dynamic is not as equals and he at the time wanted to make his own way with the BWB. He would not have made it without her either. Comparably, just because he saw the realities of his present situation doesn't mean that he never realized what she did for him nor in turn just because she realized her present situation it doesn't mean that she didn't understand that she had help. What does help in the past matter when she is in a country where she does not know anyone or the language and she needs immediate help now? She is not dumb because she realizes that they are not there and cannot help her now.

She did make new friends. Hell, she has more friends in Braavos then she ever did when she was off on the road in the Riverlands.

She is just a child who saw her father getting decapitated, witnessed the horrors of war during her travels, survived incarnation by brave companion and at harrenhall, saw the head of her brother's wolf sewn onto his own and saw body of her mother lying on river bank. Give her a break if she has some misconstrued feelings and opinions.

look I have an opinion, it will not change unless she changes in another book, I am not trying to change people's minds and you won't change mine, you have your interpretation of Arya, I have mine and I just happen to think that she is overrated, not a bad character, just overrated, you have your interpretation I have mine, leave it

there was a reason when I first said I didn't particularly like Arya I said: "I know it is heresy"

[Sultan of Westeros]

look I have an opinion, it will not change unless she changes in another book, I am not trying to change people's minds and you won't change mine, you have your interpretation of Arya, I have mine and I just happen to think that she is overrated, not a bad character, just overrated, you have your interpretation I have mine, leave it

Fair enough

[R4W13Y]

That's it, until now people would just be like "hey, you don't know the whole story, it didn't happened yet, just wait and see". And now that it did happened, everyone is telling us that "you should have seen it coming, it was obvious, it needed to happen, Ramsay is not a gentleman".

I just don't get it :dunno:

This is just...such a beautiful, wonderful point. I'd kiss you if I could.

Ok, so when LF told Sansa about the marriage proposal to the Bolton's, why didn't Sansa say something like:

"You know LF, I have no fucking clue to what you're trying to pull here. You're trying to run some double reverse here when running power-o would be just fine. You have the Vale military forces under your control and why not just bring them in after Stannis and the Bolton's bleed each other white. Bring them in to retake the North and I'll think about marrying you, which by the way, you need me as I'm the legitimate heir of the North. And since, the North loves their Starks, having me would make your play for the North much easier. I'm a valuable political asset, but instead you've got this notion to hand me over to some family whom you really no nothing about."

And who in fuck cares what Cersei thinks? What is she going to do you? Is she call going to call her allies from Highgarden and Sunspear to stop you? I don't think so. I'm the one that needs to be convinced here, not Cersei."

That, I think would have been much more empowering, rather than the convoluted scenario Dumbo & Dumbo came up with.

:agree:

lets be clear sansa was parked in the vale because grrm had screwed up his timings and needed to kill time for a bit, then realised that wouldn't work for some characters but sort of forgot about sansa and shes still too young to do much.

her book "arc" is a 1 degree movement. fine if you like that sort of thing but gives the lie to her being a main character for grrm at this point. she might well sit the entire song of fire and ice out in the vale which might be great for sanfans....

however in tv when you have built up a character it would be a criminal waste to leave her in the vale of lacuna (especially as 2 of her living siblings are MIA and the other one is doing a subplot bravosi karate kid thing)

Here's what I don't understand. You, and others, have repeatedly told people who've complained about this storyline having no logic and destroying 4.5 seasons worth of characterizations for a multitude of characters keep saying "we don't know what will happen! Keep watching!"...how can you then say the exact same thing about George's novels that have yet to be written? I will thus turn it back on you: "how do you know where Sansa's story in the Vale leads or why she ended up there? We don't know what will happen! Keep reading!"

For what it's worth, about using the "we don't know what will happen" argument for this scene/plot in the show, I have this to say:

No, we do not know for certain. But it's likely that what will happen is some combination of Brienne, Pod, and Theon saving Sansa and leaving Winterfell. This is a sound prediction based on the entire arc of the season so far.

because since Aristotle characterised the Tragedy as the path from Hubris to Catharsis that has been the model of Western storytelling, it is incredibly boring to watch a character who is not affected in any way by the events of the story, growth doesn't have to make you a better person, just a different one, the thing is since they killed Lady Show Sansa has been stuck in a rut as a victim and that is no fun to watch, book Sansa is getting out of that rut which is why people are enjoying the character (I don't think there were any Sansa fans in ACOK)

Yeah reading through those "growth" discussions I was confused that people were taking it to mean "better" or "stronger". Growth in a literary sense means "change" and "development", negative or positive, good or bad.

This cannot be said enough, especially the bolded part.

It's really not about the show deviating from the books, it's really not about the scene being worse because it happened to Sansa instead of Jeyne Poole/anyone else - it's because it didn't need to happen at all. And because they had to resort to a whole bunch of utter stupidity to have this scenario play out (how did Sansa get out of her marriage to Tyrion again? LF has to go and see to Cersei why? Sansa is going to avenge her family and bring down the Boltons by.... marrying into them? WTF?).

Resistance to the Boltons could easily have been portrayed in many other ways, even if the show stuck only with information from the books. Since they actually don't have to stick strictly to the books, there are probably an infinite number of ways they could show it. But no; let's have a rape..... again.

And because this just cannot be said enough times, I will repeat it: "It's just complete non-sense for Sansa to be married to Ramsay in the first place."

:agree:

I'm a dude and most of the time I get fed up with the annoying SJCs of the interenet, this isn't about sexism or a gender war, it is about plain lazy writing

:agree:

From what I can tell, they've removed almost all of the (much more interesting) political stuff/context that made the Jeyne thing even remotely close to being necessary. So they cut out that actual intriguing stuff, but kept the rape/torture, rriiigghhtt?

:agree:

Then please tell me why they couldn't either:

1) leave her out of season 5

2) make up something more "exciting" for her to do in the Vale, like they did for so many other characters that they were trying to stall with, like Dany, Jon, Bran... they could have had LF murder people, if you need murder to spice things up. They could have had her scheming and rallying the Vale against the Boltons and Lannisters. They could have had someone try to kidnap her to bring her to Cersei, but ansa being smart and figuring what they are up to. They could have had other major characters popping up in the Vale - Brienne and Pod, abd others, why not, when they are changing things so much anyway? Or they could have sent her with Vale soldiers to the North to rally the northerners against the Boltons.

Anything that would make sense and wouldn't completely derail her character arc, and would not include marrying Ramsay Bolton and getting raped.

:agree:

[hallam]

a stark (albeit a fake one) needed to be married to ramsey according to GRRM. his was a fake one, the show used a real one.

now why is there no need for that?

Ros as a whole was simply a travesty, from the character's introduction, to her progress in-universe, and her eventual cartoonish death, all in bad taste.

Ros appears as three separate whores in the books. Making them into one character made perfect sense not least because it allowed them to like Winterfell to Kings Landing. Having Joffrey demonstrate that he was a psychopath and not just killing enemies was important.

So are we expecting Fat Walda being murdered by Sansa and whole ghost of winterfell scenes in next episodes?

I am pretty sure there will be fewer complaints when that happens. Stannis is about to slaughter a few hundred men so he can park his bum on the Iron throne but there will be zero complaints about that.

I firmly believe it's all about Sansa and naff all to do with Ramsay. Theon is semi-relevant but only in the short term, I suspect. Even though we didn't see it we heard sansa's childhood being literally ripped away (sorry, that sounded graphic even writing it, but it does seem to met that is what has happened). Alfie Allen did a really good job telling us all we needed to know seeing Theon's face. I actually think it's a clever piece of work. Anything less and Theon suddenly refinding himself would have seemed really naff. I don't think his future extends much past getting Sansa further along her way, though. Unless they can get Qyburn to... no, let's not even go there. :blushing:

Well if the slavers find that dwarf-cock merchant, perhaps they can get a spare.

I don't think there is much left for Theon other than 'redeeming heroic death'.

[TheJadeKnight]

Coming at this from a film and television production angle, I can see how certain creative decisions here might have made sense for D&D. If Littlefinger's ultimate plan is to install Sansa in a position of power in the North, then this would be consistent. We did get some more hints as to his show plan this week. It seems to me that having Sansa there when Stannis comes ensures that whoever wins, he has an ally in Winterfell. He can then finish them off and become Warden of the North, under decree of Tommen. He already controls the Vale and Harrenhaal. I also doubt that his employee who rats on Loras just did all of this of his own volition. I would bet that LF is playing the Tyrells and the Lannisters against one another. He probably expects that the Tyrells will win, and he has collaborated with them in the past, which gives him ties to the Reach. From childhood I would assume that he has relatively strong ties to the Riverlands as well. All of this gives him considerable influence over four of seven kingdoms. I really don't understand why this is such a terrible plan according to some people. The only part where I have to suspend disbelief is that he doesn't know how bad Ramsay really is. Other than that, this is perfectly in line with his character, assuming that he doesn't really care if Sansa is hurt (which is debateable).

Additionally, Sansa's Vale storyline is not captivating television, and relies upon a lot of introspection. It also involves introducing a lot of new minor characters in a season where they already have to introduce Dorne, the Faceless Men, the Sons of the Harpy, and the Sparrows. The Boltons are well known to the audience, and are more clearly antagonists to not just her but everybody, which places her close to the center of far more important events than whatever is happening in the Vale. I agree with other posters here who have stated that Sansa does have some agency in choosing to go to Winterfell. Sure, she might be manipulated by Littlefinger into doing this to a certain extent, but just because she is slowly becoming more of a player doesn't mean she can all of a sudden outplay LF, who is a master schemer. She doesn't exactly trust LF completely, but trusts him enough to believe that if she can do her part and manipulate Ramsay and gather info, LF will come through with whatever his side of the plan is and she can have justice for her family. That is some kind of plan on her part, and it is agency. Furthermore, she knows from the start that marrying Ramsay likely involves consummation , and makes clear to LF that she will be willing to go through with the deed. As she spends more time in Winterfell, she observes and learns more about Ramsay, and it is clear that she understands that he is not a good person, but she says to Myranda (although she likely may just be putting on a strong front) that she will not be intimidated by the Boltons or anyone else.

Now we get to the scene itself. If you accept all of the previous, then some version of this scene is inevitable barring intervention from outside agents like Brienne or Stannis. We see at the beginning of the scene that Sansa is extremely uncomfortable while Ramsay talks to her, just as she was when she believed that Tyrion was going to comsummate their marriage. This is understandable, especially considering what she does know about Ramsay. However, once he commands Theon to stay, the entire character of the situation shifts yet again into something far worse. The writers could have had Theon not witness, and maybe even cut to black before any of it begins, but why would the writers not show what is undoubtedly an important (albeit horrible and disturbing) moment for a main character? So, if you accept everything in the first two paragraphs, and accept that the scene should have been shown (which is, again, debateable), then what other way could they have shown it? Technically they could have shown us everything (Sophie is old enough, although I wouldn't want that for the show or the character). All they do show is her face after Ramsay throws her down, which is in completely understandable distress. But I really do believe that the writer's showing Theon during the rest of the scene was mainly for production reasons and not because they thought the scene was more important for his character (although it is undoubtedly important, and Alfie does a fantastic job with the scene).

Ultimately, I think there is some room for debate on this issue, but I think it should be recognized that there are legitimate reasons for many of the changes that D&D have made to adapt the show, and that given these changes, they generally do a decent job. I know that might be unpopular around this forum, but if you ask most Unsullied, they don't see nearly as much of this so-called "terrible writing" as book fans do, and I don't think it's because Unsullied are somehow less intelligent or knowledgeable about story structure. I might change my mind on this particular issue, but it all depends on how this story pans out and how Sansa deals with this going forward, which regardless of what many posters here seem to claim or think, we still aren't 100% sure of yet. And also, I would like to point out that all of this outrage is over the debateable characterisation and treatment of a fictional character who inhabits a fictional midieval fantasy world. You would think that Tumblr feminists could direct their moral preaching at people truly deserving of it in the real world like the people forcing young women to mutilate their genitalia, killing them for being raped, forcing them to wear full body coverings, etc., etc., etc.. I just think a little perspective would be nice. Not that I don't enjoy a good nerdy internet debate.

[Annara Snow]

Wrong, he said that in the context of a rant about being paid for his work. He has been paid plenty to make GoT, he accepted they would play with his characters, they have his express permission.

Wrong. He said that in the context of a rant about not wanting to let people do anything they want with his characters. Specifically, that line was about writing literature in shared worlds, something he does get paid for, and other authors wanting to do things like include his characters in their stories so they could be raped.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

No, the purpose could be to show that people like that end up as roadkill in Westeros.

+1, lol.

All the whining about "empowerment," "character arcs" is hilarious. Obvious some posters are trying to apply lessons from their Modern Literature 101 class to the show.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

So, if you accept everything in the first two paragraphs, and accept that the scene should have been shown (which is, again, debateable), then what other way could they have shown it? Technically they could have shown us everything (Sophie is old enough, although I wouldn't want that for the show or the character). All they do show is her face after Ramsay throws her down, which is in completely understandable distress.

You would think that Tumblr feminists could direct their moral preaching at people truly deserving of it in the real world like the people forcing young women to mutilate their genitalia, killing them for being raped, forcing them to wear full body coverings, etc., etc., etc.. I just think a little perspective would be nice. Not that I don't enjoy a good nerdy internet debate.

First quoted paragraph, +1. Sophie Turner herself in Time magazine was just quoted as saying that she "loved" doing the scene. But, hey, I suppose some teenage internet posters know better than the actress who played the part.

Second quoted paragraph, +1000. The feminist trolling of Hollywood productions is histrionic.

[OldGimletEye]

Littlefinger won't invade if Stannis is defeated, he can't go against the Iron Throne without a King to follow, Stannis, in this case.

Sansa thinks fondly of Littlefinger at the moment, and as for Ramsay, as the writers clarified, he couldn't have known, Sansa agreed to the plan either way. But yeah, revealing Sansa while Cersei is still on the lookout for her is stupid, and the Boltons agreeing to such a marriage is suicide as well... but eh, the show version of Cersei seems considerably more fixated on Tyrion and the Tyrells than Sansa.

I don't think so. LF is planning for a Bolton victory here. I think he's undermining Cersei's confidence in the Bolton's by telling her they have had Sansa Stark and have kept it a secret. That way, when he moves into the Vale to remove the Bolton's he will have Cersei's blessing. And he hopes Sansa will see him as the big hero when he comes in with his Vale forces to remove the Boltons.

I think a Stannis victory would actually complicate things for LF.

[Annara Snow]

Chebyshev's summary of Sansa's arc on the show and the sexism is excellent: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/119391541235/why-sansa-really-kneeled-how-sexism-shaped-sansa

Miodrag also makes some great points about the episode, and refutes all the show apologists' arguments:

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/#comments

"When show apologists say that the difference between Ramsay’s wedding nights in the book and in the show is no big deal, they miss the point because they ignore the narrative logic. Ramsay’s wedding night in the show could be tantamount to this hypothetical situation: Theon and Jeyne escaped Winterfell and Stannis’ forces captured them, but then, for some reason, Jeyne agrees to marry Clayton Suggs and, to her horror, he brutalizes her on their wedding night. That would mean that Jeyne’s escape from Ramsay was actually ineffective in a narrative sense and that, after the author manipulated the readers for a while into thinking she’s on her way to some sort of salvation, she just ends up in the same place as in Winterfell.

That would be repetitive and cheap and exploitative. Luckily, Martin will not do that, just like he never did anything similar. His world is no cartoon city, people do suffer terrible fates in his books, but never without a narrative reason, and never in a repetitive manner.

When you’re repetitive in a short form of fiction, it’s clumsy and silly. When you’re repetitive in a huge saga, it can be tiring and draining. But when you’re repetitive in an adaptation of the source material that is anything but repetitive, it’s outright pathetic. And when the repetition includes sensitive matters like violence, it’s also insulting and tasteless."

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

+1, lol.

All the whining about "empowerment," "character arcs" is hilarious. Obvious some posters are trying to apply lessons from their Modern Literature 101 class to the show.

Precisely what i think.

[nationalanthem91]

I don't see why escaping a situation that you created yourself is so empowering.

What did she gain from this whole plan if the"big moment" is the escape? Wasn't she there for REVENGE!

THIS SO MUCH. I agree 100% and if I could agree even more, I would. I'm sure we are in the minority, but I have said it many times and I'll say it again. Escaping, especially after everything she has endured and gone through in order to take back her home, would be so foolish and it honestly would annoy me. I GET that the Boltons are merciless monsters. I GET that she was raped. I get all of that, but what could she possibly gain by running away? Sure, her sound of mind, but in a way, she would let both Rose and Ramsay win if she leaves. She would be too terrified to continue her plot, and then where would she be? Right back at square one with either Brienne, Stannis, or Jon.

If she was capable of holding her own through the end of the season and actually staying in Winterfell, I think I'd gain a bit more respect for her. How much more rewarding would it be to see her go through this horrible stuff, only to remain unbroken? I think that'd be great.

[starklover]

THIS SO MUCH. I agree 100% and if I could agree even more, I would. I'm sure we are in the minority, but I have said it many times and I'll say it again. Escaping, especially after everything she has endured and gone through in order to take back her home, would be so foolish and it honestly would annoy me. I GET that the Boltons are merciless monsters. I GET that she was raped. I get all of that, but what could she possibly gain by running away? Sure, her sound of mind, but in a way, she would let both Rose and Ramsay win if she leaves. She would be too terrified to continue her plot, and then where would she be? Right back at square one with either Brienne, Stannis, or Jon.

If she was capable of holding her own through the end of the season and actually staying in Winterfell, I think I'd gain a bit more respect for her. How much more rewarding would it be to see her go through this horrible stuff, only to remain unbroken? I think that'd be great.

I agree. I don't think she will be going anywhere anytime soon. If you watch the preview again it looks like she's locked in a room :(

[thequicksilverthings]

But she does

tell Theon that her family has friends in the North

Which means we are bound for some empowerment through rape. Needless to say, it is absolutely despicable sexist trope. Apparently someone forgot that women don't need to suffer rape to be empowered.

:agree: I've been trying so hard to point this out to people.

[JonisHenryTudor]

ooops....

[JonisHenryTudor]

A mind numbingly dumb idea can sometimes work out. And sometimes a brilliant idea can fail. The bottom line is that LF entrusted his most valuable political asset to a bunch of bozos, whom he knew little about. That was extremely risky and stupid and really not necessary given the loyalty of the Vale to him and Cersei's weak political position.

The person whose approval LF really needs is Sansa Stark's and not Cersei Lannister's or Roose Boltons or Stannis Baratheon's. But, he has probably pissed that approval away with his scheme.

But, I guess D & D needed LF to look like an extreme risk taking idiot in order to have their Sansa/Ramsay scene.

I agree that was a weird decision on his part to leave her there, but I also agree that we have to see how it plays out to see what his plan is. It is weird, no argument there, but in his mention of an alliance with Roose; there must have been something LF needed that was not stated on the show...yet.

Coming at this from a film and television production angle, I can see how certain creative decisions here might have made sense for D&D. If Littlefinger's ultimate plan is to install Sansa in a position of power in the North, then this would be consistent. We did get some more hints as to his show plan this week. It seems to me that having Sansa there when Stannis comes ensures that whoever wins, he has an ally in Winterfell. He can then finish them off and become Warden of the North, under decree of Tommen. He already controls the Vale and Harrenhaal. I also doubt that his employee who rats on Loras just did all of this of his own volition. I would bet that LF is playing the Tyrells and the Lannisters against one another. He probably expects that the Tyrells will win, and he has collaborated with them in the past, which gives him ties to the Reach. From childhood I would assume that he has relatively strong ties to the Riverlands as well. All of this gives him considerable influence over four of seven kingdoms. I really don't understand why this is such a terrible plan according to some people. The only part where I have to suspend disbelief is that he doesn't know how bad Ramsay really is. Other than that, this is perfectly in line with his character, assuming that he doesn't really care if Sansa is hurt (which is debateable).

Additionally, Sansa's Vale storyline is not captivating television, and relies upon a lot of introspection. It also involves introducing a lot of new minor characters in a season where they already have to introduce Dorne, the Faceless Men, the Sons of the Harpy, and the Sparrows. The Boltons are well known to the audience, and are more clearly antagonists to not just her but everybody, which places her close to the center of far more important events than whatever is happening in the Vale. I agree with other posters here who have stated that Sansa does have some agency in choosing to go to Winterfell. Sure, she might be manipulated by Littlefinger into doing this to a certain extent, but just because she is slowly becoming more of a player doesn't mean she can all of a sudden outplay LF, who is a master schemer. She doesn't exactly trust LF completely, but trusts him enough to believe that if she can do her part and manipulate Ramsay and gather info, LF will come through with whatever his side of the plan is and she can have justice for her family. That is some kind of plan on her part, and it is agency. Furthermore, she knows from the start that marrying Ramsay likely involves consummation , and makes clear to LF that she will be willing to go through with the deed. As she spends more time in Winterfell, she observes and learns more about Ramsay, and it is clear that she understands that he is not a good person, but she says to Myranda (although she likely may just be putting on a strong front) that she will not be intimidated by the Boltons or anyone else.

Now we get to the scene itself. If you accept all of the previous, then some version of this scene is inevitable barring intervention from outside agents like Brienne or Stannis. We see at the beginning of the scene that Sansa is extremely uncomfortable while Ramsay talks to her, just as she was when she believed that Tyrion was going to comsummate their marriage. This is understandable, especially considering what she does know about Ramsay. However, once he commands Theon to stay, the entire character of the situation shifts yet again into something far worse. The writers could have had Theon not witness, and maybe even cut to black before any of it begins, but why would the writers not show what is undoubtedly an important (albeit horrible and disturbing) moment for a main character? So, if you accept everything in the first two paragraphs, and accept that the scene should have been shown (which is, again, debateable), then what other way could they have shown it? Technically they could have shown us everything (Sophie is old enough, although I wouldn't want that for the show or the character). All they do show is her face after Ramsay throws her down, which is in completely understandable distress. But I really do believe that the writer's showing Theon during the rest of the scene was mainly for production reasons and not because they thought the scene was more important for his character (although it is undoubtedly important, and Alfie does a fantastic job with the scene).

Ultimately, I think there is some room for debate on this issue, but I think it should be recognized that there are legitimate reasons for many of the changes that D&D have made to adapt the show, and that given these changes, they generally do a decent job. I know that might be unpopular around this forum, but if you ask most Unsullied, they don't see nearly as much of this so-called "terrible writing" as book fans do, and I don't think it's because Unsullied are somehow less intelligent or knowledgeable about story structure. I might change my mind on this particular issue, but it all depends on how this story pans out and how Sansa deals with this going forward, which regardless of what many posters here seem to claim or think, we still aren't 100% sure of yet. And also, I would like to point out that all of this outrage is over the debateable characterisation and treatment of a fictional character who inhabits a fictional midieval fantasy world. You would think that Tumblr feminists could direct their moral preaching at people truly deserving of it in the real world like the people forcing young women to mutilate their genitalia, killing them for being raped, forcing them to wear full body coverings, etc., etc., etc.. I just think a little perspective would be nice. Not that I don't enjoy a good nerdy internet debate.

:cheers: