Hos the Hostage

If Sansa is a skinchanger, how&when will she start manifesting it?

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A huge part of Sansa's Stark identity was cut off when Lady was killed. Unlike her siblings, she can't have wolf dreams. But wargs and skinchangers are born, not made. If wargs can't be made, then they can't be unmade either, right? Arya's power to skinchange becomes stronger when she becomes blind. It is expected that Jon's warging powers will be stronger during his limbo state. What is your theory on how (if it happens) Sansa will use her skinchanging powers? Is there any foreshadowing in the text, other than 'she turned to a wolf with wings and flew out of a window'?

 

We don't know if all Stark kids are skinchangers, but Bran and Arya surely are. Varamyr says 'the gift was strong in the boy' about Jon Snow. So probably he is a skinchanger too, and will be able to use his power only if he is separated from his wolf and tried hard(like Bran and Arya did, with raven and cat respectively). Robb is dead, Rickon is too close to Shaggy and has no PoV anyway.

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A huge part of Sansa's Stark identity was cut off when Lady was killed. Unlike her siblings, she can't have wolf dreams. But wargs and skinchangers are born, not made. If wargs can't be made, then they can't be unmade either, right? Arya's power to skinchange becomes stronger when she becomes blind. It is expected that Jon's warging powers will be stronger during his limbo state. What is your theory on how (if it happens) Sansa will use her skinchanging powers? Is there any foreshadowing in the text, other than 'she turned to a wolf with wings and flew out of a window'?

 

We don't know if all Stark kids are skinchangers, but Bran and Arya surely are. Varamyr says 'the gift was strong in the boy' about Jon Snow. So probably he is a skinchanger too, and will be able to use his power only if he is separated from his wolf and tried hard(like Bran and Arya did, with raven and cat respectively). Robb is dead, Rickon is too close to Shaggy and has no PoV anyway.

Certainly difficult to find evidence in the text that she has or will. Even the 'she turned into a wolf with bat wings' bit may be hyperbole on the part of the tale-tellers with the tale growing more absurd with each retelling. It may not even be foreshadowing at all just a superstitious viewpoint, especially because we know that is not how she left KL which is what that refers to. Now that's what the text seems to indicate, however if you are looking for a guess or an opinion I suppose there could be some possibilities.

 

I am not saying that I believe these will happen in the story just speculating, as the OP asked, as to how her skinchanging abilities might manifest.

 

Seeing as that most of her "experiences" or "training" has been related to the politics and manipulations of men and women perhaps she, like Bran can, will skinchange people. She certainly seems to be getting better at "empathy" from her training by LF, not saying LF is training her to skinchange just that he is training her on how the minds of people work. He certainly has neither the moral center nor the knowledge or even the "culture" as it were to discourage skinchanging men. In fact if he found out she could I am certain he would encourage her to do just that.

 

Also perhaps to come back to needing an animal to unlock the ability initially there could be another animal introduced, perhaps a Falcon given her love of "Noble Pursuits" she certainly has access to such in the Vale, although I don't think we have seen her 'hawking' yet in the text and none for any bird other than Eagles or Ravens. Perhaps the introduction of another animal. I am not certain.

 

Neither is a particularly strong theory and certainly not supported by the text up to this point just getting the ball rolling as it were. It may be that her worldview/psychological attachments will not allow her too. She certainly seems more enamored of Southern Ways than those of the North but perhaps blood will tell. No harm in speculating anyways.

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Hi there,  I'm thinking this has been discussed somewhere on asoiaf....  whether it has or hasn't, it's a great question, and I like thinking about it because I'd really like the Stark kiddies to have a greater understanding of their power.  Obviously Bran has an awareness of his warging capabilities, and I'm fairly certain Jon does as well as he goes to great lengths denying it in his own head.  Arya seems to have awareness of her warging as she talks about seeing through the cat's eyes up in the rafters when she whacks the Kindly Man... 

 

Sansa has been followed about by a yellow dog, hasn't she?  She has awakened with the dog sleeping next to her, and I'm remembering this in King's Landing as well as in the Eyerie, but perhaps I'm remembering wrong.  I suspect Sansa may be flitting in and out of the dog when she sleeps.... her empathetic abilities may be tied to her warging talents as some here have pointed out, and I agree with that.  I'm looking forward to seeing Rickon who, I've little doubt, is also a warg.  I suspect Rickon's warging will be a very Id-centered--- like unconscious-- relationship with Shaggydog as he's still very, very little.  However, I wonder if that can make the connection even stronger, if less controllable. 

Edited by Knight ofthe Laughing Tree

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When did Arya start having wolf dreams? The first one I remember is her first chapter in ASoS, when Nymeria and her pack attack and kill the four men pursuing Arya after she escapes from Harrenhal. Just before her escape, she spends time in the Harrenhal godswood, and hears a wolf howl. That's when she decides to quit playing with wooden swords, and starts the escape plan.

 

Sansa hasn't been anywhere near a godswood with a weirwood heart tree since Winterfell. The Gates of the Moon should have one. That could be a key moment that would allow Sansa to reconnect with the Old Gods.

 

Sansa's wolf link is gone. When she girded herself in her "courtesy armor" during her time in KL, she was effectively playing a "cold fish", and thus channeling her Tully heritage. (Fish are often described as armored in mail - remember Bilbo and the riddles.) She's past that now.

 

Sansa is often linked with Air - she is called "little bird ", "little dove", she traveled to the Eyrie, she hangs out with her cousin the Falcon Lord. I suspect Sansa will end up connecting to her other grandparent's line - the Whents. She will warg bats, perhaps the dreaded giant cave bats whose skeletons are quite prominent in the CotF cave Bran is in. For all we know giant cave bats are the natural enemies of giant ice spiders.  

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I just don't see it happening but I do like here a lot more since ASOS, so I hope she can reconnect with her family and heritage that way.

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You should have a look at this thread:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118702-six-pups-in-the-snow-a-direwolves-reread/

They have a very close look at Sansa's connections with dogs and birds. The contributors to the discussion are also very able writers so that it is fun to read their comments and theories.

 

I'd like to add to this thread that Jon Snow has already warged Ghost: When he is part of the raiding party, he sees the wildling's host through Ghost's eyes for the first time. Thus, warging has nothing to do with distance as suggested above (I hope I did not misunderstand this :

 

So probably he is a skinchanger too, and will be able to use his power only if he is separated from his wolf and tried hard(like Bran and Arya did, with raven and cat respectively).

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I like the idea that they lose the ability when their wolf dies, this would make more sense to me as it seems to unlikely that every child of the Starks in this generation, no matter their parentage, gets skin changing skills.

 

It seems likely that in the past various Starks had direwolf pets, it's their house sigil after all, and back then, maybe those guys could warg their wolves.

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Well, I bet against.

 

She is without her wolf, and before the wolves were found and accepted no one of the boys had a connection with an animal.

 

So Warg are somehow made by the meeting of a predisposed person with some predisposed animal, and on that basis both thaught and practiced.

After the first it is easier, and it is easier to "use" as a vessel an animal that was already a vessel, in the same way as it is easier to ride a horse that was already broken to be ridden.

 

My take is that Sansa missed both her "practical" training with her tuned wolf, suffered a trauma from Lady's death and was not trained in any way by nobody.

 

So Bran is the best warg: practicing and training. Jon is instinctively good and practicing. Rickon is having lots and lots of time with his wolf. Arya is doing it less since the distance has grown. Robb is dead, and Sansa is the least warging one.

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Wargs can teleport inside multiple creatures though. So your corresponding direwolf dying doesn't necessarily preclude the ability itself, rite?

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I seem to recall Martin saying that Sansa had warging (or skinchanging) abilities but that their development had been delayed by the loss of her wolf.  I'm not positive about this, but it does make sense.

 

As to which animal, I kind of like the idea of a falcon.  Hawking is apparently an activity of young noblewomen ( Arya mentions that her mother had promised her a hawk when she got older).  The falcon is the sigil of the Vale, and Sansa has often been described as a little bird.  

 

As to warging people, the only person Bran has warged is Hodor, and I got the impression that was only because of his limited mental capacity. 

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It is interesting in regards Sansa's strange connection with the dog in the Eyrie. But I believe instead of for being a possible skin changer, she has a connection with Haranheal. Since her grandmother is a Wheant on her mother side whos sigal is a black bat as well as someone mentioning about her escaping like a winged bat in Arya's ASOS chapter. Preston Jacobs made interesting points o his LF dept scheme videos . Please correct me if I am off.

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It is interesting in regards Sansa's strange connection with the dog in the Eyrie. But I believe instead of for being a possible skin changer, she has a connection with Haranheal. Since her grandmother is a Wheant on her mother side whos sigal is a black bat as well as someone mentioning about her escaping like a winged bat in Arya's ASOS chapter. Preston Jacobs made interesting points o his LF dept scheme videos . Please correct me if I am off.

 

 

She did not escape King's Landing that way. She left with LF.

Superstitious smallfolk think that's how she escaped King's Landing after killing Joffrey. Nobody else does. So any theory resting on that point alone is doomed to failure.

However one could make a case, and I have seen it made, that the statement alone, not whether it is true or not, is foreshadowing.

 

That theory seems a bit of a stretch for me. I don't hate it I just see it as too extraneous.

 

I will reiterate as I did in my previous post, I really can't be certain she will skinchange/warg at all. Seems unlikely but you never know.

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what is your opinion regarding her possible connection with Haranhael or her Whent lineage.  

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You should have a look at this thread:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118702-six-pups-in-the-snow-a-direwolves-reread/

They have a very close look at Sansa's connections with dogs and birds. The contributors to the discussion are also very able writers so that it is fun to read their comments and theories.

 

I'd like to add to this thread that Jon Snow has already warged Ghost: When he is part of the raiding party, he sees the wildling's host through Ghost's eyes for the first time. Thus, warging has nothing to do with distance as suggested above (I hope I did not misunderstand this :

 

I checked out that link and searched within the topic for content about Sansa, but couldn't find what you refer to, Eisfee... could you give more detail about what they discuss?

 

(ETA: fixed a typo)

Edited by LinsarellaSand

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Sansa has been followed about by a yellow dog, hasn't she?  She has awakened with the dog sleeping next to her, and I'm remembering this in King's Landing as well as in the Eyerie, but perhaps I'm remembering wrong.  I suspect Sansa may be flitting in and out of the dog when she sleeps.... her empathetic abilities may be tied to her warging talents as some here have pointed out, and I agree with that.  I'm looking forward to seeing Rickon who, I've little doubt, is also a warg.  I suspect Rickon's warging will be a very Id-centered--- like unconscious-- relationship with Shaggydog as he's still very, very little.  However, I wonder if that can make the connection even stronger, if less controllable. 

 

I think you're referring to the "old blind dog" which she sleeps with when her and Littlefinger stop on the way to the Eyrie. 

 

The only indication for her relationship with the dog that I can think of/find is the following, in ASOS, Chapter 68:

"It was eight long days until Lysa Arryn arrived. On five of them it rained, while Sansa sat bored and restless by the fire, beside the old blind dog. He was too sick and toothless to guard with Brian anymore. And mostly all he did was sleep. But when she petted him, he whined and licked her hand, and after that they were fast friends."

 

And then later on in the chapter, after the wedding:

 

"Sansa found Bryan's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke, and licked her face. 'You sad, old hound', she said, roughing his fur." [then Marillion comes over, wanting to "warm" her] "The old dog raised his head and growled, but the singer gave him a cuff and sent him slinking off, whimpering."

 

While it certainly seems as though Sansa has a connection with the dog, and he is protective of her, I don't know that what's given is enough to indicate that she's warging into the old dog...

 

Is there other evidence for this sort of relationship, which I've missed?

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Her keeping a falcon whom she could warg into at will would be awesome :ack:

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what is your opinion regarding her possible connection with Haranhael or her Whent lineage.  

 

She may well, distantly, have connections to the Whents and thus even further distantly to Harrenhall should the powers that be, who have now awarded it to many other families since, decide to back whatever claim she may make.

I just don't see them as being important to her character arc or to the completion of the story in general. It's a nice theory I just don't think we'll see it in the story.

I think there would have to be a lot of storytelling around that very specific storyline from WoW on out for that to come true and her possibly released chapters do not seem to indicate she's going that way.

I could be wrong I just don't see her going that way.

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the reason I mentioned it because LF is the lord of  Harrenhall, and since we know he has been gathering provisions in the Vale to prepare for Winter. His interest in Sansa is either weird or has its purpose. 

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the reason I mentioned it because LF is the lord of  Harrenhall, and since we know he has been gathering provisions in the Vale to prepare for Winter. His interest in Sansa is either weird or has its purpose. 

 

What it can't be both weird and have a purpose?  :D

 

He was in stupid in love with her mother and people say she's even prettier than Catelyn was at her age. So that definetly covers the weird angle without going to much into it.

 

She is a girl with a powerful name. She is, to most people's minds, the rightful inheritor of Winterfell. He has Harrenhall and the Vale. If LF, Lord Petyr Baelish to the likes of you and me, can do away with a particular Emmon Frey and can also control Sansa he has virtual contol over everything from the Riverlands north. He is a man who thrives on keeping his motives hidden and his "allies" unaware of what he is really doing. I assure you it has a purpose even if it is not immediately apparent. After all he's even sneaky enough to convince Lysa to murder Jon Arryn which we were lead to believe was other people until much later in the story. He has plans within plans.

 

He certainly has a few big flaws and I'm sure Sansa will exploit them once the student has become the master.

 

As far as the Harrenhall thing goes unless he marries her, or names her his heir, she has no rightful claim to Harrenhall. Even the whole Whent thing gives her absolutely zero legal claim. The place has changed hands more than any other castle in the story. Once LF passes on, unless Sansa is his legal heir somehow, it would revert to the Lannisters whom are the current rulers and in charge of the enfeoffment process in Westeros currently. If there is a dispute over a fief it goes to the Crown to decide and somehow I doubt they would let Sansa keep it if somehow she would even want to make a claim on such an accursed blood soaked castle. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

Her chapter as released so far does not seem to indicate that is the direction she is going, but I could be wrong and they sound like early chapter stuff as well so I make no predictions. It just doesn't seem to have the most natural progression of her story arc to me. There are better ways to turn Sansa into a true player than going anywhere near Harrenhall, she's already right where she needs to be learning from one of the best.

 

After her "education" is finished Winterfell is the most obvious choice, she has more support and a better legal claim there than anywhere. She is a Northern girl after all and is a Stark. Who would even want stinky old Harrenhall anyways? The place is is cursed and quite literally a death trap anyways. Even Lord Baelish prefers to be other places and he's the rightful ruler.

I suppose a case could be made that the Vale might be another choice but we haven't seen the right events transpire there yet to make that claim with as much certainty I think.

Edited by Bran the Bringer

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That is a good point, I honestly do not know where Sansa arc will progress. After reading the sample chapter, something is bond to go wrong ever since the mad mouse is reintroduce in the story. LF is a puzzling character that everything is going his way and yet his flaw maybe Sansa, but I see no indication of him making dump decisions (unlike his show counterpart).

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