From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

[Sly Wren]

 

If I were you I would investigate the concept of tree swords. If Dawn's pale stone was a petrified weirwood and not a meteor, then you have a precedent for a white stone to burn red via the red leaves which are described as bits of flame, red hands, etc. Of course weirwoods are covered in blood sacrifice, so.... Anyway, there's a lot about tree swords and wooden swords, and I've always wondered what the meaning is. At this point I basically do not believe in coincidence where it concerns Martin. 

 

Again great job on the threads and keep it up. ;)

I will look into it--thanks!

 

As for the blood sacrifice--that is a sticking point for me, rational or not. Jon repeatedly shrinks from it. Has seen it either directly in action or results of it and been (rightly) horrified. 

 

Even in the first chapter of Game, when Ned executes Gared, Ned is not enjoying this duty. The traces of ancient sacrifice, while clearly still there, are now under the auspices of duty--to king of Westeros (vs. more ancient kings or the gods). "Ritual sacrifice" is, in Ned's head, nothing of the sort. It's an onerous duty to his king. To his sense of honor. But ned tried first to convince Gared to return to the Wall (as he tells Cat). Only executes the man when he's beyond reason. 

 

Jon, who is so very like Ned, has grown up with this as his role model. Duty, not blood sacrifice. Protect the innocent. Jon's annoyed at Theon's kicking of Gared's head. 

 

Jon sacrifices what he wants, gives up what he wants most (IE: going to Robb) for that sense of duty Ned taught him. When he plans the attack on Winterfell, he only asks for volunteers--won't force men to follow him on this.

 

So I have a really hard time getting my head around the idea that all the imagery he's been seeing about the Sword of the Morning and the red blade on the Wall fits with the blood sacrifice of Valyrian steel. Everything about Jon rejects that ethic. And that rejection has grown. He sees the Sword only after sending Ghost away and giving up the NW details--sacrificing what he wants to do to protect his mission. He sees the ice transforming things after staying away from the NW who favor Craster. Jon's mission seems based on self-sacrifice and duty. NOT blood sacrifice. Really think his sword will be the same.

 

Sly Wren, I forgot to make this point to you earlier. The red fire may indicate an umpire fuel source, and blue fire sword would really be the hottest type of sword. Pale flame or blue flame may indicate purity. That's another reason I associate red flame to black evil swords. There may be a purpose even for those, as this is Martinland and very little is pure evil or good, but regardless, the darker the flame the dirtier the fuel.

"Impure"--right? Just a typo? Or are you saying "umpire" in a reference I'm missing?

 

I like the idea the colors and fires being related to purity. Again, though, that would seem to point the impurity away from Jon and his aversion to blood sacrifice. Self-sacrifice seems like a "purer" thing in Martinland. As Arthur says to Jaime, 
"blood is the seal of our devotion"--meaning his own blood. The blood from Jaime's knees after kneeling all night in the sept. The blood from the cut Dawn makes in Jaime's shoulder when Arthur touches him with the sword. The cut Jaime doesn't fell. Self-sacrifice=nobility and purity.

[LmL]

I will look into it--thanks!
 
As for the blood sacrifice--that is a sticking point for me, rational or not. Jon repeatedly shrinks from it. Has seen it either directly in action or results of it and been (rightly) horrified. 
 
Even in the first chapter of Game, when Ned executes Gared, Ned is not enjoying this duty. The traces of ancient sacrifice, while clearly still there, are now under the auspices of duty--to king of Westeros (vs. more ancient kings or the gods). "Ritual sacrifice" is, in Ned's head, nothing of the sort. It's an onerous duty to his king. To his sense of honor. But ned tried first to convince Gared to return to the Wall (as he tells Cat). Only executes the man when he's beyond reason. 
 
Jon, who is so very like Ned, has grown up with this as his role model. Duty, not blood sacrifice. Protect the innocent. Jon's annoyed at Theon's kicking of Gared's head. 
 
Jon sacrifices what he wants, gives up what he wants most (IE: going to Robb) for that sense of duty Ned taught him. When he plans the attack on Winterfell, he only asks for volunteers--won't force men to follow him on this.
 
So I have a really hard time getting my head around the idea that all the imagery he's been seeing about the Sword of the Morning and the red blade on the Wall fits with the blood sacrifice of Valyrian steel. Everything about Jon rejects that ethic. And that rejection has grown. He sees the Sword only after sending Ghost away and giving up the NW details--sacrificing what he wants to do to protect his mission. He sees the ice transforming things after staying away from the NW who favor Craster. Jon's mission seems based on self-sacrifice and duty. NOT blood sacrifice. Really think his sword will be the same.
 
"Impure"--right? Just a typo? Or are you saying "umpire" in a reference I'm missing?
 
I like the idea the colors and fires being related to purity. Again, though, that would seem to point the impurity away from Jon and his aversion to blood sacrifice. Self-sacrifice seems like a "purer" thing in Martinland. As Arthur says to Jaime, 
"blood is the seal of our devotion"--meaning his own blood. The blood from Jaime's knees after kneeling all night in the sept. The blood from the cut Dawn makes in Jaime's shoulder when Arthur touches him with the sword. The cut Jaime doesn't fell. Self-sacrifice=nobility and purity.

Yes, impure. :)

This is why I keep pointing at the Azor Ahai dream. When he has the red blade, it is a nightmare and Jon finds himself doing things he would never do in real life.

Red blade = nightmare

Ergo, since I agree for the most part with your analysis of Jon - he only sacrifices himself - I don't think he will have a red blade. And if he does, it will be something of a personal nightmare.

That's why I keep suggesting Dawn might burn blue or white - that would be more consistent with Jon as the virtuous sword of the morning, if in fact that's where this is headed.

But I also think it's worth noting that he is so tormented over breaking his vows in any fashion, and yet is forced to do it. This might go farther, and Jon will find himself doing even worse things that he hates to do... but that are necessary for some reason. Remember, Martin is a bit twisted and we don't know what exactly he is doing with blood sacrifice yet.

[Lady Barbrey]

In the interest of contributing something other than quibbling over facts and details, I shall leave you guys this bit. 

 

When Stannis draw Lightbringer from the pyre of burning gods (the mother, specifically, which represents the moon goddess from which Lightbringer was made), pay attention to the two squires who pick it up. These two represent the son of AA, I am thinking. Which very well might be the Last Hero.  I am skipping a few paragraphs in this sequence for space considerations:

 

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. His squires stepped up to attend him. Davos watched as his son Devan pulled a long padded glove over the king’s right hand. The boy wore a cream-colored doublet with a fiery heart sewn on the breast. Bryen Farring was similarly garbed as he tied a stiff leather cape around His Grace’s neck.

 

The king plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade-green flames swirling around cherry-red steel. Guards rushed to beat out the cinders that clung to the king’s clothing.

 

A ragged wave of shouts gave answer, just as Stannis’s glove began to smolder. Cursing, the king thrust the point of the sword into the damp earth and beat out the flames against his leg. “Lord, cast your light upon us!” Melisandre called out.

 

Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers. Melisandre sang in the tongue of Asshai, her voice rising and falling like the tides of the sea. Stannis untied his singed leather cape and listened in silence. Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying.

 

​The Lord of Light "casts" his light upon people by dropping his fiery hand - the fiery hand of R'hllor has 1,ooo fingers, remember, that's our meteor shower - and by thrusting his sword in the damp earth (the sea of earth, or near the shoreline..) and recall our introduction to Pyke:

 

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past.

 

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sidedpillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire.

 

 

Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown.(ACOK, Theon)

 

Same story. Anyway, back to Dragonstone:

 

 

The fire had started to dwindle by the time Melisandre and the squires departed with the precious sword. Davos and his sons joined the crowd making its way down to the shore and the waiting ships. “Devan acquitted himself well,” he said as they went.

 

“He fetched the glove without dropping it, yes,” said Dale.

 

​The fiery hand represents the metoer shower, as I said, and so Devan fetches both Lightbringer and the glove, because they refer to the same thing. Moon meteors. Which are made into a red sword.  

 

Allard nodded. “That badge on Devan’s doublet, the fiery heart, what was that? The Baratheon sigil is a crowned stag.”

 

“A lord can choose more than one badge,” Davos said. Dale smiled. “A black ship and an onion, Father?” Allard kicked at a stone. “The Others take our onion … and that flaming heart. It was an ill thing to burn the Seven.”

 

By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king’s patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

 

The onion in the sky over Davos's black ship is the moon, not an onion. And you'll notice Allard kicks the stone in between the two sentences about the onion. The Others take the stone moon... and the burning heart. I honestly am not sure what this is telling us about the Others. When you "give someone a sword," it can me stabbing them with it. I dunno. 

But here's point of all this: the sigils. Daven goes from black ship and white moon to a burning heart. What about house Farring???

 

House Farring is a noble house of the Crownlands. According to semi-canon sources, they blazon their arms with per pale purple and white, two knights combatant with swords, counter-charged.^[1]

 

Go take a look: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Farring

 

Its a white knight on purple with a white sword fighting against a purple person with a purple sword. The tip of the purple sword that crosses the white side is white, and vise versa (not sure if this detail is important or not). So, for starters, this has something to do with House Dayne, right? Bryen Farring went from purple and white knights fighting to a burning heart. Not sure if the transitions mean anything - probably, I'd guess. A stone moon turning into a burning heart is exactly how you forge Lightbringer; but what is the meaning of the second? 

 

Why is the white knight fighting the purple? Theses are the young squires of Stannis - and I again I think this implies "son of AA." Most are familiar with Davos's "shadow chaser" scene at the pained table, when his shadow falls on the map like a sword, and he lights fires to "chase the shadows" from the room. Devan does something similar in ADWD, chasing shadows from Mel's tower room. All of this strengthen the idea of "Eldric Shadowchaser as the Westerosi son of AA." It could be that the two squires are showing us different things about one person, or that AA had two sons (second son / sun, anyone?).  I've also suggested that AA was defeated at Battle Isle and that someone may have taken his sword (I've suggested a lot of things, to be fair).  It could also be that the scene is showing us different phases, and everyone is AA: Stannis thrusts the sword into the damp earth, and then another AA type picks it up after it lands (making a sword from the meteors). 

 

This would also strengthen the idea that the Dayne's are descendants of the Amethyst Empress, or possibly her and AA. 

 

And again, we have an association with purple (Dayne eyes in this case?) and the white sword / white knight. 

 

Finally, I'll point out that after a red sword's fire goes out... it is a black sword. 

 

One interp of the Farring sigil is that is that it represents First Men (white, ice) merging with GEotD (purple). Meaning, house Dayne is one half GEotD blood and one half FM blood. Or it could indicate the son of AA is a Dayne - purple eyes, white sword. But it also seems to imply this person turned to fire magic also, as the Farring sigil becomes a burning heart. 

 

Finally, the seventh wife of Walder Frey is a Farring. 

 

The seventh wanderer is the ice moon, and fire moon the eighth. I've seen the wives of Walder Frey used to represent the wanderers before, when Cat jokes about becoming the ninth lady Frey, and killing the eighth to do so. This would associate house Dayne with the ice moon, potentially. The idea is that the comet is the into wanderer, and kills the eighth, leaving 7. 

 

“We must accept?” he echoed peevishly. “I don’t see you offering to become the ninth Lady Frey, Cat.”

 

“The eighth Lady Frey is still alive and well, so far as I know,” she replied. Thankfully. Otherwise it might well have come to that, knowing Lord Walder. (ASOS, Cat)

 

I am sort of seeing a link here between the 7th wanderer, the ice moon, and house Dayne. And the Others. 

Anyway, see what you guys make of this. 

Hi LmL - you directed me back to Bryan so here I am.  First, the wanderers.  I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing.   The Frey wives might indicate wanderers but I'm not sure how that would be significant to the story.  I love some of the conclusions you come up with from the celestial symbolism but I'm not as into it as you, so a lot of the details go out of my head.  I have just seen you you make mention of 7 wanderers the last is the moon, the comet as the 8th, killed by a ninth.

 

Hodor to me is a "wanderer" in the sense of Odr, Odin's wandering God aspect, but I got that from myth not the stars, and it is evident the boy already is the "wandering" aspect of our Odin figure's mini me.  He is often said to be wandering - I noticed this on my first read through starting twenty years ago. However, it's more and more often an enslaved and directed walking rather than wandering,  and I hate it when Bran does it to him as much as Hodor does.  So if I think of Hodor as a wanderer, I don't think of him so much as another wandering star or planet, but as Planetos itself, because it too seems to be enslaved to something that is putting it off course for its own ends and out of the natural balance.    

 

Planetos' seasons, if someone in the world book is correct, are off because the days and nights are out of balance, which leads to the seasons being out of balance.  Yandel never corrects the author to say days and nights in Winteros are NOT out of balance, so I assume that they are and it's just a given.  That tells me that the essential imbalance comes from day and night out of balance.  If we look at the oldest myth we know about on Planetos: Maiden Made of Light and Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light is the day (not the sun as I've seen suggested) because her counterpart, the Lion of Night, is the night.  Something is affecting the revolution of Planetos around its own axis.  It doesn't turn to face the sun in a natural way, or turn away from it in a natural way. It halts and pauses, retreats, advances, speeds up - it wanders.  I'm sure you've come to this conclusion in your astronomy threads but I honestly get lost in them (sorry!) so I don't know.  

 

Anyway, if I connect this to what is happening to Hodor as 'my' wandering figure, then the problem with Planetos comes down to an initial cometary impact (Hodor hitting his head), affecting the planet's revolution (Hodor's wandering), and compoundment of the problem with forced and ignorant skinchanging  (a Long Night is coming for Hodor - probably a long period of occupation by Bran or Bloodraven). Or on the flip side, sorcery.  I think this ties in well with the theme of enslavement that's going on in the books too.

 

If Bran can figure out how to restore Hodor to his senses, instead of enslaving him for his own ends, then I think he'll receive the key (in some form) to restoring a normal pattern to Planetos. If Bran doesn't, the Long Night continues, and I think Hodor will kill Bran out of frustrated fury.  That's the other mythological basis for the name Hodor. Hodor is a god who accidentally kills his brother Baldr (Bran has a lot of Baldr symbolism), and "all the light goes out of the world" (compare this to kinslaying BSW/AE - but in this case Bran is literally killing Hodor's soul by skinchanging him and Hodor accidentally kills Bran physically out of frustration and self-defense). This will actually mean the end of the world, and I believe it to be the core spiritual battle going on out there at the ends of the earth.

 

Martin is playing with both etymologies - Hodor and Odr - with Hodor's name. Odr, who is Odin but only his "wandering god" aspect, a spiritual enslavement/death, and Hodor, who accidentally kills his brother Baldr.

 

That's my take on it anyway.  It might play very well into your own theories, or contradict them.  But I think that if Martin is using wandering star or planet symbolism in other places, it is a key to look at our wandering character, Hodor.

 

Bryan Farring - I honestly don't know.  If he's a Dayne/Targaryan descendent or representative, and the white cold kills him, perhaps it's a minute foreshadowing of what's to come for Dany if she brings her dragons north.  I don't see him as a son, but as someone close who however briefly reminds Stannis of the cost of what he's doing.  If Shireen gets burned in the end, Bryan's death will likely be one of Stannis's considerations in going through with it, because through personalizing the boy he can personalize the rest of his "boys", his army. One for the many.

[LmL]

I have picked up on the Hodor as the earth idea, but you've taken it farther here and you have some great ideas. I was sharing all that because of the Farring & Devan being the ones to pick up the sword after the flames go out, but you picked up a different part and ran - that's terrific, I think you're in to something.

The planet is occupied and enslaved by a foreign presence - just as Hodor is - and those are the greasy black bloodstone meteors, IMO. What you ice described is exactly what is happening to the earth. All this shadow and necromancy comes from the moon meteors, IMO. It's a variation on Lovecraft's various meteors which come to earth and cause horrific magical consequences.

I really love this analogy - occupied Hodor as occupied earth. The idea that he knows something important which he can only say if his condition is resolved is fascinating. It works well as a miniature puzzle for Bran which symbolizes the greater struggle. Check out the scene where Bran Hodor and co are fighting up the hill to BR's cave. Hodor is acting like a planet knocked of course, and Bran is skin changing him in that scene.

As for the wanderers, just remember that the astronomy ideas fit on top of other themes, so your observations about wandering are in no way in conflict.

I'll have to consider these ideas and look over the Hodor stuff. I am aware of the Hodr / Norse ideas but you seem to know them better. Please continue with the line of inquiry, I think it's on to something.

[Sly Wren]

Yes, impure. :)

This is why I keep pointing at the Azor Ahai dream. When he has the red blade, it is a nightmare and Jon finds himself doing things he would never do in real life.

Red blade = nightmare

Ergo, since I agree for the most part with your analysis of Jon - he only sacrifices himself - I don't think he will have a red blade. And if he does, it will be something of a personal nightmare.

That's why I keep suggesting Dawn might burn blue or white - that would be more consistent with Jon as the virtuous sword of the morning, if in fact that's where this is headed.

Okay--I just realized I misinterpreted the purpose of your first few posts in this thread.

 

I thought you were basically saying "Jon has to have a red Valyrian blade in the dream because he is AA and that's why he kills Robb"--not what you just said above.

 

So, we were arguing about something that didn't exist--except in my head.

 

My apologies for making you argue with my illusions. And I thank you for your forbearance.

 

The above--agree that it could just be a nightmare based on what Mel has told him. I still lean to my interp (ice takes on colors), in this case because (partly) Jon dismisses Mel's AA talk. He does read in the Jade Compendium about AA--but the details of the dream seem to go beyond that. Still, his brain could be conflating AA with the battle for the Wall. I still think it more fits with his other nightmares about what he must do (go into the crypts) mixing with his guilt and insecurities--but I think I'm finally getting your point, yes? And fully agree it works.

 

But I also think it's worth noting that he is so tormented over breaking his vows in any fashion, and yet is forced to do it. This might go farther, and Jon will find himself doing even worse things that he hates to do... but that are necessary for some reason. Remember, Martin is a bit twisted and we don't know what exactly he is doing with blood sacrifice yet.

I've thought about this as well. My current theory is that he may have to give up Ghost--the other half of himself--to come back from the underworld. A form of self-sacrifice. 

 

Ghost is noted to be gone before the "Ice-is-magic" moment at Craster's. He gives Jon a meal the night before--better than the rest of the NW. But in the morning, Ghost is gone and the fire is out.

 

Same with the "Sword of the Morning moment." Ghost is gone--sent away by Jon the night before--and Jon notes it, yet still allows himself to hope. 

 

I'm hoping it's coincidence, but it kind of makes sense. So much of what Jon has learned has required self-deprivation. Ghost is his comfort, his tie to his family, his other self. I think Jojen has it right about the Starks and their wolves--you are Summer and Summer is you. Seems more personal even than what V6 describes. Jon's having to let him go--(warging out of Ghost and back to self???)--seems like a potential sacrifice to come back with what he needs to fight.

 

So, like Sansa (via Lady) and Bran (via weirwood), Jon would be another Stark closely tied to the world of the dead. I think his tie with Ghost would last--there are hints that Sansa is still tied to Lady. But that would be a big cost--as sacrifice of himself. Very different from the blood sacrifice of the Valyrians, but still having power. A power not tainted by hell, for lack of a better way to put it.

 

Maybe.

[Lady Barbrey]

I have picked up on the Hodor as the earth idea, but you've taken it farther here and you have some great ideas. I was sharing all that because of the Farring & Devan being the ones to pick up the sword after the flames go out, but you picked up a different part and ran - that's terrific, I think you're in to something.

The planet is occupied and enslaved by a foreign presence - just as Hodor is - and those are the greasy black bloodstone meteors, IMO. What you ice described is exactly what is happening to the earth. All this shadow and necromancy comes from the moon meteors, IMO. It's a variation on Lovecraft's various meteors which come to earth and cause horrific magical consequences.

I really love this analogy - occupied Hodor as occupied earth. The idea that he knows something important which he can only say if his condition is resolved is fascinating. It works well as a miniature puzzle for Bran which symbolizes the greater struggle. Check out the scene where Bran Hodor and co are fighting up the hill to BR's cave. Hodor is acting like a planet knocked of course, and Bran is skin changing him in that scene.

As for the wanderers, just remember that the astronomy ideas fit on top of other themes, so your observations about wandering are in no way in conflict.

I'll have to consider these ideas and look over the Hodor stuff. I am aware of the Hodr / Norse ideas but you seem to know them better. Please continue with the line of inquiry, I think it's on to something.

One thing here is that I don't think Hodor knows something.  I think the process of restoring him will be the revelation Bran needs to understand how to restore the planet.  So it will be both a personal and inner revelation but also a revelation about his powers, and the process that might be needed (likely involving other characters such as Jon) if the earth is to be restored as well.

[Lady Barbrey]

Okay--I just realized I misinterpreted the purpose of your first few posts in this thread.

 

I thought you were basically saying "Jon has to have a red Valyrian blade in the dream because he is AA and that's why he kills Robb"--not what you just said above.

 

So, we were arguing about something that didn't exist--except in my head.

 

My apologies for making you argue with my illusions. And I thank you for your forbearance.

 

The above--agree that it could just be a nightmare based on what Mel has told him. I still lean to my interp (ice takes on colors), in this case because (partly) Jon dismisses Mel's AA talk. He does read in the Jade Compendium about AA--but the details of the dream seem to go beyond that. Still, his brain could be conflating AA with the battle for the Wall. I still think it more fits with his other nightmares about what he must do (go into the crypts) mixing with his guilt and insecurities--but I think I'm finally getting your point, yes? And fully agree it works.

 

I've thought about this as well. My current theory is that he may have to give up Ghost--the other half of himself--to come back from the underworld. A form of self-sacrifice. 

 

Ghost is noted to be gone before the "Ice-is-magic" moment at Craster's. He gives Jon a meal the night before--better than the rest of the NW. But in the morning, Ghost is gone and the fire is out.

 

Same with the "Sword of the Morning moment." Ghost is gone--sent away by Jon the night before--and Jon notes it, yet still allows himself to hope. 

 

I'm hoping it's coincidence, but it kind of makes sense. So much of what Jon has learned has required self-deprivation. Ghost is his comfort, his tie to his family, his other self. I think Jojen has it right about the Starks and their wolves--you are Summer and Summer is you. Seems more personal even than what V6 describes. Jon's having to let him go--(warging out of Ghost and back to self???)--seems like a potential sacrifice to come back with what he needs to fight.

 

So, like Sansa (via Lady) and Bran (via weirwood), Jon would be another Stark closely tied to the world of the dead. I think his tie with Ghost would last--there are hints that Sansa is still tied to Lady. But that would be a big cost--as sacrifice of himself. Very different from the blood sacrifice of the Valyrians, but still having power. A power not tainted by hell, for lack of a better way to put it.

 

Maybe.

Aha, that's what I meant up thread that I agreed with both of you when you seemed to be disagreeing!

[Nozlym]

Did you see the bit about Bryen Farring and purple and white knights?

nah what post is it?

[Lady Dyanna]

I have had an epiphany! And without a visit to the underworld to boot! I think I know now why Dawn will burn red!!!

I was having a discussion elsewhere and Voice made the following statement:

Does a spell hold it together? Can it survive the death of the ww that holds it or are they linked?

I kept these two questions together, because, in my mind, the are linked.

I don't know if you were around or saw it, but this was my very reasoning for proposing the continued existence of the Night's King in Heresy. I think this is why Dawn exists, because rather than be "killed" the Night's King was simply "brought down." Thus defeated and exiled, he lived. And, in my opinion, he continues to live.

So in this way, Dawn also lives. I think this is one reason for their glow, the blades are tied to the life force of the Others, which itself, seems to manifest as a eerie blue starlight.

Now I'm not sure about the first part of that, but the swords of the others definitely seem to be tied to them in some manner. As speculated elsewhere, most probably by a spell of some sort. Remember that when Sam killed his ww the sword is never mentioned again. Now the Others have blue eyes and blood, etc, so for them the sword burns blue. But what if the Dawn is a similar type of sword and it is also tied to the life force or bloodline of its wielder? What is the color of human blood? Why it's RED! So what do you think?

[Sly Wren]

I have had an epiphany! And without a visit to the underworld to boot! I think I know now why Dawn will burn red!!!

I was having a discussion elsewhere and Voice made the following statement:
Now I'm not sure about the first part of that, but the swords of the others definitely seem to be tied to them in some manner. As speculated elsewhere, most probably by a spell of some sort. Remember that when Sam killed his ww the sword is never mentioned again. Now the Others have blue eyes and blood, etc, so for them the sword burns blue. But what if the Dawn is a similar type of sword and it is also tied to the life force or bloodline of its wielder? What is the color of human blood? Why it's RED! So what do you think?

This has possibilities.

 

Nan tells Bran: 

“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

 

The bolded could be seen as fairytale exaggeration--but so far, Nan's tales mostly seem to have some truth to them. Why do the Others hate not only warm weather and iron (warding) but "hot blood?"

 

Dawn is described as "alive with light" in the sun. The Others' swords in the Game prologue: 

"The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight , translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor."

 

Blue in the Others=death. "Blue as the eyes of death." Alive in cold moonlight, but shimmering with the color of death.

 

So, if Dawn, which shares some qualities (based on the limited info that we have) with the Others' swords is alive in the sunlight (hated by Others) and has to be wielded by a specific bloodline (perhaps like the Other's sword--which seems to disappear after Sam kills its wielder)--seems at least possible that Dawn would be alive with the warm life force. Hot human blood. Red light. And might even explain why the Others hate hot-blooded things. 

 

You have probably already put all of this together--am just sorting it out in my own head.

 

But it makes some sense--power of life vs. power of death. Unnatural death is the real enemy. And Dawn opposes it.

 

So far, I'm liking this very, very much!!! 

 

And am very glad your epiphany did not require an underworld. :)

[LmL]

Okay--I just realized I misinterpreted the purpose of your first few posts in this thread.

 

I thought you were basically saying "Jon has to have a red Valyrian blade in the dream because he is AA and that's why he kills Robb"--not what you just said above.

 

So, we were arguing about something that didn't exist--except in my head.

 

My apologies for making you argue with my illusions. And I thank you for your forbearance.

 

The above--agree that it could just be a nightmare based on what Mel has told him. I still lean to my interp (ice takes on colors), in this case because (partly) Jon dismisses Mel's AA talk. He does read in the Jade Compendium about AA--but the details of the dream seem to go beyond that. Still, his brain could be conflating AA with the battle for the Wall. I still think it more fits with his other nightmares about what he must do (go into the crypts) mixing with his guilt and insecurities--but I think I'm finally getting your point, yes? And fully agree it works.

 

I've thought about this as well. My current theory is that he may have to give up Ghost--the other half of himself--to come back from the underworld. A form of self-sacrifice. 

 

Ghost is noted to be gone before the "Ice-is-magic" moment at Craster's. He gives Jon a meal the night before--better than the rest of the NW. But in the morning, Ghost is gone and the fire is out.

 

Same with the "Sword of the Morning moment." Ghost is gone--sent away by Jon the night before--and Jon notes it, yet still allows himself to hope. 

 

I'm hoping it's coincidence, but it kind of makes sense. So much of what Jon has learned has required self-deprivation. Ghost is his comfort, his tie to his family, his other self. I think Jojen has it right about the Starks and their wolves--you are Summer and Summer is you. Seems more personal even than what V6 describes. Jon's having to let him go--(warging out of Ghost and back to self???)--seems like a potential sacrifice to come back with what he needs to fight.

 

So, like Sansa (via Lady) and Bran (via weirwood), Jon would be another Stark closely tied to the world of the dead. I think his tie with Ghost would last--there are hints that Sansa is still tied to Lady. But that would be a big cost--as sacrifice of himself. Very different from the blood sacrifice of the Valyrians, but still having power. A power not tainted by hell, for lack of a better way to put it.

 

Maybe.

 

I've been of the opinion that the wolf body of Ghost will indeed need to die - the Mithras parallels with Jon that Martin has already shown us he using indicate this. The white bull - which is a part of Mithras - must be sacrificed for Mithras to be reborn. Gerold Hightower the white bull already was sacrificed at the ToJ, and I think Ghost will serve the same function.

But because we know that a skinchanger's spirit begins to merge with the animal after the human body dies, when Ghost is presumably sacrificed to restore Jon, the spirit that goes back into the resurrected body will be both Jon and Ghost. GhostJon, Jon merged with his white shadow, etc etc. So it's not QUITE as sad as it might be, though as an animal lover it will of course be hard to read if it happens. :( But GhostJon will of course be reborn to takes names and kick ass, so that's going to be interesting.

I'm glad we are communicating clearly, this is kind of what I was becoming a little bit frustrated about, or at least, felt we were talking past each other. I'm not very solid on anything in regards predicting the future, and I think all potentialities that have a decent amount of logic to them should be considered. What I was trying to express was more of an "if ____, then ____" as far as the red sword and sacrifice and all that. I feel damn certain that Lightbringer of Azor Ahai was a terrible ting, black steel bathed in blood and burning black and red (the dirtiest kind of fire, if you will), or even with "shadow fire," which may or may not be the same thing as black fire, but what I do not know is if this horrible weapons still managed to play some role. George has shown us many instances of darker actions which may serve a higher purpose, or at least showing us situation made to leave us wondering. The red wedding is a good example. I wouldn't have done it, and it certainly wasn't moral, but there is an argument to be made from Tywin's POV that he was ending a bloody war as decisively and as soon as possible. Now, Tywin was burning and pillaging the river lands, so don't take this as any sort of justification- I just think Martin is playing with this idea, and I do not know where he is going with it. 

 

Consider - after Nazi Germany fell, the United States gained access to all of its scientific research, most of which was done through cruelty and horror - unspeakable horror, as we all know. But, I know for a fact that we took what they discovered and made use of some of it, and some of it led to scientific or medical breakthroughs which in turn did benefit people. It doesn't in any way justify what the Nazi's did, but once its been done, you can argue making use of the information for a higher purpose is better than throwing it away. I don't even know how I feel about that, as its all so horrific to even consider, but compare this idea to Lightbringer. There still may have been a way to make use of that evil blade, perhaps by confronting another evil just as foul, something like that. There's also many indications that Lightbringer was broken, and reforged. Perhaps there was a way to purify or stabilize the weapon. 

 

Here's what that might have looked like: the bloodstone greasy black meteors are a form of frozen fire, as they are cooled magma according to my ideas about a molten moon which exploded, but they drink light, and are therefore more like "frozen shadow fire." Dragonglass or obsidian is formed in the fires of the earth - a natural process. Dragonglass is a naturally produced refined essence of the sacred fires of the planet. It bears the positive aspects of fire - it slays ice demons, and it provides light (harsh light, true, but it is illuminating). I'm not sure if using the candle invokes bloodshed - it seems to - but it also seems that it is the sorcerer's own blood which is used to activate them. 

 

Original Lightbringer, or Nightbringer as it may be, was made from the meteorite ore of frozen shadow fire. Steel and stone. But I have found this very interesting three-ingredient pattern for these swords in many places - steel/iron, stone, and GLASS. One easy example are the Bones mountains - they have the steel road, the stone road, and the sand road. The sand road leads to a "city of serpents" - Bayasabhad - so that's serpent sand, or dragon glass. This might not seem like anything important, but I have found this pattern in very important places... I could do my normal 17 quotes with analysis here, but I shall just move ahead, because the implication is obvious - Nightbringer, with only stone and steel, with only the shadow aspect of fire, was not a balanced or complete weapon.  We know the LH's blade broke, and that the cotf "helped him" somehow. I say they suggested adding dragonglass to that mofo - this is a variation of Radio Westeros' ideas about dragonglass and Lightbringer. At this point, the weapon has bright and dark fire, the light and shadow aspects. Perhaps THIS version of LB might be a positive weapon, with some kind of positive usage. 

 

I suppose it's possible the broken black LB was reforged with white dragonglass, or bleached somehow, and became Dawn. This doesn't quite feel right to me, as I think there should be some remnant of the blackness to be found in Dawn, which there is none of, but I can't rule it out either. Just though i would mention it. 

 

One of the things I feel pretty strongly about, as far as the usage of Dawn as Original Ice, is that it was the weapon which broke AA's dark Lightbringer. The LH's blade snapped because of the cold, and every time there is a duel with a cold sword and a non-cold sword or even a hot sword, the cold sword wins and the hot swod breaks. The Hound vs Beric is a great example, as the Hound's sword is called "the cold one" twice in that fight. Waymar's castle forged steel break against the Other's ice blade. Thoros's swords are also known for always breaking. Then there are mor subtle instances where a dark stone wall or rock is broken 2/3rds of the way up by ice:

 

The narrow track ended abruptly where a massive shoulder of black granite thrust out from the side of the mountain. After the bright moonlight, its shadow was so black that it felt like stepping into a cave. “Straight up here,” the ranger said in a quiet voice. “We want to get above them.” He peeled off his gloves, tucked them through his belt, tied one end of his rope around his waist, the other end around Jon. “Follow me when the rope grows taut.”

 

Once his foot slipped as he put his weight on it and his heart stopped in his chest, but the gods were good and he did not fall. He could feel the cold seeping off the rock into his fingers, but he dared not don his gloves; gloves would slip, no matter how tight they seemed, cloth and fur moving between skin and stone, and up here that could kill him. His burned hand was stiffening up on him, and soon it began to ache. Then he ripped open his thumbnail somehow, and after that he left smears of blood wherever he put his hand. (Jon is making bloodstone here, just as Dany did in her wake the dragon dream where her feet were bleeding on the stone) He hoped he still had all his fingers by the end of the climb.

 

Up they went, and up, and up, black shadows creeping across the moonlit wall of rock. Anyone down on the floor of the pass could have seen them easily, but the mountain hid them from the view of the wildlings by their fire. They were close now, though. Jon could sense it. Even so, he did not think of the foes who were waiting for him, all unknowing, but of his brother at Winterfell. Bran used to love to climb. I wish I had a tenth part of his courage.

 

The wall was broken two-thirds of the way up by a crooked fissure of icy stone. Stonesnake reached down a hand to help him up. He had donned his gloves again, so Jon did the same. The ranger moved his head to the left, and the two of them crawled along the shelf three hundred yards or more, until they could see the dull orange glow beyond the lip of the cliff.

 

So, the black shadow rangers are climbing up a black stone wall which is lit by moonlight - and it is broken by a crooked fissure of icy stone, 2/3rds of the way up.

 

We often see the Wall divided into thirds in this manner, towers rate sometimes the same, etc etc. I'm sure you take my implication. Anyway.  

[LmL]

nah what post is it?

 

This one :)

[Voice]

[spoiler]

LmL, I was thinking about Dawn the sword yesterday, and I swear came to this same conclusion independently.  Opened up this thread and here it was, with all the quotes and everything! And showing that Jon's dream was a re-enactment of the blood betrayal! I never saw that but I think you are exactly right.  And the above relates to Jon AND Dany.

 

Here's how I got to this reasoning.  I'm skipping out the AA myth because the thing confuses me, and I think it's twisted and false anyway, and for the moment all astronomy. I am just reconstructing out of my own head as a brief summary, taking in Dany's vision of the God-Emperors in her HotU, the Amethyst empress and the milky sword, Sly Wren's comments about blood sacrifice, etc.

 

First, something should be said about the milky swords in the HotU vision that I think has been missed.  There are not a whole lot of swords.  Dany is seeing the god-emperors all at once, but they are a sequence not a mass.  And each of them carry that same sword, so it is an inheritance passed down from one to the other. I believe Dawn, then, is not one of many, but unique, its purpose is to IDENTIFY the true God-Emperor, and it has a power we don't yet know about. (This is so Arthurian but then so are the Daynes in toto).  In a sense, the writers are giving us the Daynes and Dawn's back history, either as a mirror of Westeros or as a sequence.

 

So here's my little reconstruction of the Daynes and Dawn's back history in a way that makes sense to me, and how it relates to Jon and Dany.  The Amethyst Empress (purple-eyed) is murdered and usurped by her brother the Bloodstone Emperor.  But her children escape (and honestly, these secret children, switched children, hidden heirs have been such a trope in the books that I don't even consider this a jump) with the sword - that can identify their heritage if the time ever comes - and flee to the furthest continent, Westeros, to hide themselves from the Bloodstone Emperor.  (This  mirrors Dany and Viserys fleeing from Robert - it's all in where you stand! - so I am finally understanding that usurper imagery you and J. Stargaryan talked about, LmL).  

 

Where's the proof: we have a purple-eyed people with a greatsword Dawn living in Westeros today.  The Amethyst empress line did not die out.  Amethyst Empress, milky white sword, from the GEof DAWN.  This means that while they might have named Starfall after Dawn's original meteor origin in Asshai, there was no meteor in Dorne from which the sword was made.  

 

What's more, the advent of the purple-eyed to Westeros is followed by a mass exodus of First Men from Essos across the Arm of Dorne.  Why?  I would suggest they are fleeing slavery and worse in the Not-So-Great Empire of the Dawn after the BSE and his descendants take charge.  A Braavos-like retreat to a land that never has a history of slavery over thousands of years? Because that's what it seems like. Moses and the Red Sea.  Yandel says it made no sense the Children broke the Arm when Westeros was already filled with First Men. It does make sense if it was not the First Men they were protecting Westeros from, but from a greater threat - their pursuers.  This would be the CotF first alliance I think with the purple-eyed people and the First Men, or in fact the CotF weren't involved at all.  That sword did it!   Many of the foul descendents and minions, shadow-cursed, of the Bloodstone Emperor were swept away by the sea.  We have one clue to this: the one island near Essos, which would have been one of the first areas to cross of the former Arm of Dorne towards Westeros is called Bloodstone Island.  This is where the shadowspawn rearguard didn't get swept away and there are descendents likely living there now, in fact they likely spread to Valyria and Slaver's Bay.  The First Men/CotF pact we hear about follows hard upon this breaking, and maybe precedes it.

 

Doesn't this have echoes in Dany and Jon's stories?  Dany's first acts - instincts - are to free the slaves, at a time when we might all agree she should be concentrating on other issues.  Jon's are to save the wildlings from their pursuers, the Others, at a time when it would be wiser - for himself - to consolidate his command and not alienate his Brothers.  These two are enacting in their own way the Moses role of the purple-eyed people as leaders and saviours of the First Men, because they are the inheritors of that bloodline and tradition.

 

But there's a difference between them that is glaring that can be traced once again to the past.  I am not going to go into the Long Night here except to say defeating it was accomplished without dragons. So there is no reason to believe they need to be used during the next one.

 

The difference between Jon and Dany is that Dany has touched the "shadow" and Jon has not.  If, after the Long Night, a branch of the purple-eyed people went to Essos, and became the Valyrians, then the Church of the Starry Eyes or whoever's purpose was realized.  The Valyrians are corrupted versions of the purple-eyed people.  What's more, they were purposefully corrupted.  There might have been dragons in the Fourteen Flames, but the shadow binders from Asshai taught the Valyrians how to tame them with sorcery and blood magic.  So this is where I have a major problem with Quaithe, and think I might be in disagreement with you, LmL and Sly Wren and others.  Quaithe is a shadow binder who tells Dany she must touch the shadow to know the truth.  

 

But that is not what Dany's ancestors tell her.  In that vision in the House, what do these emperors lining the hall tell Dany to do? They tell her to run faster.  I had already explained in another post, that i had seen that darkness that was lurching behind her as her dragon self, something she must turn to embrace, something that Quaithe tells her she must embrace, something we think she must.  But that's not what the dawn emperors are telling her at all.  They are telling her to run away from it as fast as you can. And she tries. The problem is that she has already passed a line by the time she gets that vision in the HotU, she has committed blood sacrifice and fire magic in burning Mirri, and she has also participated indirectly in a blood betrayal of Viserys (she could have stopped Drogo).  So she comes to a dead end and must turn around and walk right into it, reversing the already-reversed chronological order of the images so that the first one is the last, and her fate.  The beautiful woman being fucked and chewed on by 'dwarves' is Westeros but it is also Dany, potential amethyst empress reborn, shadow cursed if she embraces her dragon self.

 

Doesn't this too make sense of the split red door imagery we were talking about in the last thread?  The red door offers her protection for her human self on the one hand, but transformation to her dragon self on the other, another kind of protection.  She has to choose and she chooses dragons.  I don't know if she can step back from that, or meld it somehow. 

 

Another question is: did she ever have a choice?  She comes from a line already corrupted.  But could she choose not to become so herself and thus become a possible saviour instead of possible destroyer?  Or was it inevitable even before she birthed her dragons and did not stop her brother from dying?  This is an essential question for me when considering Jon's heritage.  If he comes from Rhaegar's line instead of Arthur's, does he even have a choice?

 

I will say this: anything that comes from Asshai is poison to descendants of the purple-eyed people.  However well-intentioned, Melisandre from Asshai was poison to Stannis, and she will be poison to Jon if he allows her to influence him.  The shadow-binders who taught the Valyrians to tame dragons were poison to that people, making them conquerors and slavers of the worst kind, engaged in blood betrayal after betrayal slaughtering their cousins and brothers in the Dance with Dragons, in imitation of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Quaithe encouraging Dany to touch the shadow is offering poisonous advice.  And the main one is that the prophecy of Azor Ahai, that came from Asshai, is poison, a twisted version of the truth that will lead to destruction. That is the prophecy, targeted at the already corrupted line of the Targaryans, that Dany is fulfilling and it could lead to her own and the world's destruction.

 

The Citadel's Maesters are not wholly wrong.

 

[/spoiler]So now I come to Jon, who I am more and more feeling might be Arthur's rather than Rhaegar's.  What do we know about the Daynes?  That they conquered their region but preferred to stay there, not challenging the Martells. They might have practiced incest because the purple eyes still seem a strong trait, but not found outside the house, and this practice might have been passed on to their cadet branch, the Valyrians.  The Daynes would not have been keeping the blood of the dragon 'pure'; they were keeping the blood of the Amethyst Empress pure, which must endow them with something.  They feel "hidden" in many ways.  The Swords of the Morning are chosen from among them (probably by the women, our Ladies of the Lake)  with Dawn going to the worthiest person and best warrior most likely, I would suggest, able to resist temptation and fight the "shadows" internally and externally. They are an old line, 10,000 years, going back to the first of the First Men.  They carry the original Dawn, not the Valyrians (who do attempt to make copies in imitation of it but with much different materials), so their line is probably the most direct or concentrated from the Amethyst Empress.  The names of their keeps are steeped in Arthuriana, so this whole "true king" thing with the excalibur sword is a good mirror for the Amethyst empress myth.

 

Is this Jon's heritage?  I'd prefer him to be the true Great Emperor of the Dawn, wielder of Dawn, the Shadowchaser (Eldric) than a weak copy of Dany's Lightbringer, which is all being Rhaegar's kid is actually shaping up to be. 

 

And I can't help feeling that if the Valyrians and their dragons made flesh are an offshoot of the Daynes, then so are the Others.  What happens when you take the red, the fire, out of purple?  You're left with cold and blue.  

 

Wow I could just keep going, so I better stop.  This began as support for LmL that the sword should not burn red unless there's been a blood magic sacrifice, and then turned into a saga.  All the jumble in my head from yesterday poured out.  Where do you guys think I'm going wrong with this logic?

 

Dude.

 

Wow.

 

I was referred to this post from our forensic reread of the AGoT Prologue at THL and I am very thankful I was. I really like this.

 

One of the things I've always enjoyed and respected about LmL's analysis is that he ties together such a vast quantity of the messy little details of Essos in a way that makes sense with the main storyline. But, my own inclinations regarding that main storyline in Westeros often seem contradictory to his conclusions. He thinks I place too much emphasis on Ice, I think he places too much emphasis on dragonfire  and Valyrian heritage.

 

Your interpretation here seems to be a very nice middle ground, but I don't understand why the Daynes needed to have the original Dawn with them as they came to Westeros. In your scenario, could the Daynes not have aquired Dawn in the Battle for the Dawn that occurred north of the Neck? (I'm just curious how much of my understanding I can incorporate into your understanding, because I dig it.)

 

I left the last few paragraphs outside the spoilertag because I could not agree with them more. Evidence for the interpretation that Jon might have Valyrian ancestry is not exactly subtle. Dayne ancestry, on the other hand, is. Subtlety alone is not enough to warrant strong consideration, however. But, the reasons you cite really do warrant it. For reasons I cannot understand, people keep looking to House Targaryen for a savior.

 

Dragons are not heroes.

 

Heroes kill dragons.

 

I don't want to belabor that point too much, instead I'd like to mention another of yours that I did spoilertag. The matter of choice. I have not read all the comments in the thread, but I'm sure by the time I post this, someone will have mentioned that choices matter. I agree. They do. But, so does blood. I would argue that Dany's Valyrian blood predisposes her to some incredibly cruel choices. It may be genetic, or it may not. It makes no matter either way. She is the blood of the dragon, and dragon is as dragon does. LOL

 

If Jon is a Dayne, this may be true of him as well. That no matter what his choices are, he makes the choices that the next Sword of the Morning is bound to make. Getting helpless wildlings south of the Wall fits this modus operandi in my mind.

 

So, just my two coppers as I attempt to catch up on this thread. Truly nice job Lady Barbrey!

[LmL]

I too am impressed with Lady Babs, her mind is generating some really interesting stuff.  :cheers:

[Sly Wren]

I've been of the opinion that the wolf body of Ghost will indeed need to die - the Mithras parallels with Jon that Martin has already shown us he using indicate this. The white bull - which is a part of Mithras - must be sacrificed for Mithras to be reborn. Gerold Hightower the white bull already was sacrificed at the ToJ, and I think Ghost will serve the same function.

But because we know that a skinchanger's spirit begins to merge with the animal after the human body dies, when Ghost is presumably sacrificed to restore Jon, the spirit that goes back into the resurrected body will be both Jon and Ghost. GhostJon, Jon merged with his white shadow, etc etc. So it's not QUITE as sad as it might be, though as an animal lover it will of course be hard to read if it happens. :( But GhostJon will of course be reborn to takes names and kick ass, so that's going to be interesting.

Yes--exactly! A sacrifice that is still self-sacrifice. Not sure how it will happen yet--but this would be a way for Jon to sacrifice which is consistent with the ways he has sacrificed in the text. Not having to break from his pattern--just intensifying it.

 

I'm glad we are communicating clearly, this is kind of what I was becoming a little bit frustrated about, or at least, felt we were talking past each other. 

Amen! I should have known better than to restart a thread that was so interesting last time around when I'm swamped this week--reading too fast. Will need to read more slowly in future. 

 

[spoiler]I'm not very solid on anything in regards predicting the future, and I think all potentialities that have a decent amount of logic to them should be considered. What I was trying to express was more of an "if ____, then ____" as far as the red sword and sacrifice and all that. I feel damn certain that Lightbringer of Azor Ahai was a terrible ting, black steel bathed in blood and burning black and red (the dirtiest kind of fire, if you will), or even with "shadow fire," which may or may not be the same thing as black fire, but what I do not know is if this horrible weapons still managed to play some role. George has shown us many instances of darker actions which may serve a higher purpose, or at least showing us situation made to leave us wondering. The red wedding is a good example. I wouldn't have done it, and it certainly wasn't moral, but there is an argument to be made from Tywin's POV that he was ending a bloody war as decisively and as soon as possible. Now, Tywin was burning and pillaging the river lands, so don't take this as any sort of justification- I just think Martin is playing with this idea, and I do not know where he is going with it. 

 

Consider - after Nazi Germany fell, the United States gained access to all of its scientific research, most of which was done through cruelty and horror - unspeakable horror, as we all know. But, I know for a fact that we took what they discovered and made use of some of it, and some of it led to scientific or medical breakthroughs which in turn did benefit people. It doesn't in any way justify what the Nazi's did, but once its been done, you can argue making use of the information for a higher purpose is better than throwing it away. I don't even know how I feel about that, as its all so horrific to even consider, but compare this idea to Lightbringer. There still may have been a way to make use of that evil blade, perhaps by confronting another evil just as foul, something like that. There's also many indications that Lightbringer was broken, and reforged. Perhaps there was a way to purify or stabilize the weapon. 

 

Here's what that might have looked like: the bloodstone greasy black meteors are a form of frozen fire, as they are cooled magma according to my ideas about a molten moon which exploded, but they drink light, and are therefore more like "frozen shadow fire." Dragonglass or obsidian is formed in the fires of the earth - a natural process. Dragonglass is a naturally produced refined essence of the sacred fires of the planet. It bears the positive aspects of fire - it slays ice demons, and it provides light (harsh light, true, but it is illuminating). I'm not sure if using the candle invokes bloodshed - it seems to - but it also seems that it is the sorcerer's own blood which is used to activate them. 

 

Original Lightbringer, or Nightbringer as it may be, was made from the meteorite ore of frozen shadow fire. Steel and stone. But I have found this very interesting three-ingredient pattern for these swords in many places - steel/iron, stone, and GLASS. One easy example are the Bones mountains - they have the steel road, the stone road, and the sand road. The sand road leads to a "city of serpents" - Bayasabhad - so that's serpent sand, or dragon glass. This might not seem like anything important, but I have found this pattern in very important places... I could do my normal 17 quotes with analysis here, but I shall just move ahead, because the implication is obvious - Nightbringer, with only stone and steel, with only the shadow aspect of fire, was not a balanced or complete weapon.  We know the LH's blade broke, and that the cotf "helped him" somehow. I say they suggested adding dragonglass to that mofo - this is a variation of Radio Westeros' ideas about dragonglass and Lightbringer. At this point, the weapon has bright and dark fire, the light and shadow aspects. Perhaps THIS version of LB might be a positive weapon, with some kind of positive usage. 

 

I suppose it's possible the broken black LB was reforged with white dragonglass, or bleached somehow, and became Dawn. This doesn't quite feel right to me, as I think there should be some remnant of the blackness to be found in Dawn, which there is none of, but I can't rule it out either. Just though i would mention it.[/spoiler] 

Agreed on Martin's playing with the ideas of morality, practicality, greater vs. lesser good throughout the novels.

 

And the potential for redemption of the defiled, obscene, or broken. 

 

The idea of glass's being key to the forging of magical weapons--Dawn is milkglass after all. But one reservation I have with the idea that the Children helped the Last Hero reforge his sword is that they are not metal-workers in the records we have. So, either reforging the sword or giving info on reforging seems less likely than having created or found or otherwise acquired a new weapon, whole and entire, that could replace and surmount the broken sword.

 

I have no idea if the actual Lightbringer will play a role--as you are well aware, we have a sword being redeemed via Brienne and Jaime. May be that's how Martin will play with the myth. But I agree--based on what we know of Dawn (not much) it does seem "undefiled" vs. "cleansed." 

 

[spoiler]One of the things I feel pretty strongly about, as far as the usage of Dawn as Original Ice, is that it was the weapon which broke AA's dark Lightbringer. The LH's blade snapped because of the cold, and every time there is a duel with a cold sword and a non-cold sword or even a hot sword, the cold sword wins and the hot swod breaks. The Hound vs Beric is a great example, as the Hound's sword is called "the cold one" twice in that fight. Waymar's castle forged steel break against the Other's ice blade. Thoros's swords are also known for always breaking. Then there are mor subtle instances where a dark stone wall or rock is broken 2/3rds of the way up by ice:

 

The narrow track ended abruptly where a massive shoulder of black granite thrust out from the side of the mountain. After the bright moonlight, its shadow was so black that it felt like stepping into a cave. “Straight up here,” the ranger said in a quiet voice. “We want to get above them.” He peeled off his gloves, tucked them through his belt, tied one end of his rope around his waist, the other end around Jon. “Follow me when the rope grows taut.”

 

Once his foot slipped as he put his weight on it and his heart stopped in his chest, but the gods were good and he did not fall. He could feel the cold seeping off the rock into his fingers, but he dared not don his gloves; gloves would slip, no matter how tight they seemed, cloth and fur moving between skin and stone, and up here that could kill him. His burned hand was stiffening up on him, and soon it began to ache. Then he ripped open his thumbnail somehow, and after that he left smears of blood wherever he put his hand. (Jon is making bloodstone here, just as Dany did in her wake the dragon dream where her feet were bleeding on the stone) He hoped he still had all his fingers by the end of the climb.

 

Up they went, and up, and up, black shadows creeping across the moonlit wall of rock. Anyone down on the floor of the pass could have seen them easily, but the mountain hid them from the view of the wildlings by their fire. They were close now, though. Jon could sense it. Even so, he did not think of the foes who were waiting for him, all unknowing, but of his brother at Winterfell. Bran used to love to climb. I wish I had a tenth part of his courage.

 

The wall was broken two-thirds of the way up by a crooked fissure of icy stone. Stonesnake reached down a hand to help him up. He had donned his gloves again, so Jon did the same. The ranger moved his head to the left, and the two of them crawled along the shelf three hundred yards or more, until they could see the dull orange glow beyond the lip of the cliff.

 

So, the black shadow rangers are climbing up a black stone wall which is lit by moonlight - and it is broken by a crooked fissure of icy stone, 2/3rds of the way up.

 

We often see the Wall divided into thirds in this manner, towers rate sometimes the same, etc etc. I'm sure you take my implication. Anyway.[/spoiler]  

Very cool (bad pun)--you're right about the hot sword breaking against the cold. Is this why Valyrian steel might hold against an Other sword? 

[Sly Wren]

Aha, that's what I meant up thread that I agreed with both of you when you seemed to be disagreeing!

:cheers: Yes--I should have listened to you more carefully, too.

 

 

Dude.

 

Wow.

Amen. Dude. :)

[Voice]

I have had an epiphany! And without a visit to the underworld to boot! I think I know now why Dawn will burn red!!!

I was having a discussion elsewhere and Voice made the following statement:
Now I'm not sure about the first part of that, but the swords of the others definitely seem to be tied to them in some manner. As speculated elsewhere, most probably by a spell of some sort. Remember that when Sam killed his ww the sword is never mentioned again. Now the Others have blue eyes and blood, etc, so for them the sword burns blue. But what if the Dawn is a similar type of sword and it is also tied to the life force or bloodline of its wielder? What is the color of human blood? Why it's RED! So what do you think?

 

:cheers:

 

I don't have time to fully catch up, but a few issues with this scenario come to mind. First, is that Arthur Dayne also had red blood, but Dawn did not glow red in his hand. Not only that, but Dawn has tasted red human blood many times in the past 10,000 years. In text, we read of it drawing Jaime's blood, as well as ending the Smiling Knight's life. So, I'm not sure how human blood will make it take fire. Mayhaps Ghosts?

[LmL]

Yes--exactly! A sacrifice that is still self-sacrifice. Not sure how it will happen yet--but this would be a way for Jon to sacrifice which is consistent with the ways he has sacrificed in the text. Not having to break from his pattern--just intensifying it.

 

Amen! I should have known better than to restart a thread that was so interesting last time around when I'm swamped this week--reading too fast. Will need to read more slowly in future. 

 

Agreed on Martin's playing with the ideas of morality, practicality, greater vs. lesser good throughout the novels.

 

And the potential for redemption of the defiled, obscene, or broken. 

 

The idea of glass's being key to the forging of magical weapons--Dawn is milkglass after all. But one reservation I have with the idea that the Children helped the Last Hero reforge his sword is that they are not metal-workers in the records we have. So, either reforging the sword or giving info on reforging seems less likely than having created or found or otherwise acquired a new weapon, whole and entire, that could replace and surmount the broken sword.

 

I have no idea if the actual Lightbringer will play a role--as you are well aware, we have a sword being redeemed via Brienne and Jaime. May be that's how Martin will play with the myth. But I agree--based on what we know of Dawn (not much) it does seem "undefiled" vs. "cleansed." 

 

Very cool (bad pun)--you're right about the hot sword breaking against the cold. Is this why Valyrian steel might hold against an Other sword? 

 

Something like that - it may be that V steel is the only steel that can handle magical fire. Much is made of Beric's and Thoros's swords not being able to handle it. But v steel is well nigh indestructible. I'm not sure what the deal is with the Other's swords.. perhaps v steel acts like dragonglass, or perhaps only a v steel infused with dragonglass will work.

 

Yes, the cotf are not metalworkers, but they may have supplied the dragonglass. The GEotD certainly were. I suspect the LH story is a bit figurative - instead of his sword breaking fro the cold, it broke against Dawn, original Ice. Instead of the idea that he was far in the north when it broke and reforged, perhaps that happened south of the neck, at Oldtown. Instead of 12 companions who died, maybe it was 12 companions who died and were resurrected. This is how I see the old stories - always an element of truth, but always buried or stylized. The Grey King did "slay" the sea dragon, if the Grey King was one of the greenseers who was responsible for the moon destruction. The sea dragon was a moon meter, so whoever killed the moon and caused the sea dragon to fall can be said to have "slain" it. Etc. 

 

Consider one more thing about sword fire. There is no chance that V steel burns blue or silvery blue. None. If v steel burns, it will have shadow fire, black fire, or red and black fire. WE've seen flaming silvery blue swords, so we know they are a thing. What sword could possibly burn this way, except for Dawn? 

[Lady Dyanna]

Sorry to be so far behind on the thread, but time only allows for so much...

That night she lay upon her thin blanket on the hard ground, staring up at the great red comet. The comet was splendid and scary

all at once. The Red Sword, the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way she could see the sword too, only it wasnt a new sword, it was Ice, her fathers greatsword, all ripply Valyrian steel, and the red was Lord Eddards blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the Kings Justice had cut off his head. Yoren had made her look away when it happened, yet it seemed to her that the comet looked like Ice must have, after.

 

Here's the thing Sly Wren - I totally agree with your thematic analysis. Jon rejects blood sacrifice, instead becoming a sacrifice himself. But the only way a sword ever turns red is through blood sacrifice of others. The comet is compared directly to Ned's sword, covered in blood, and lest we think george is somehow referring to original Ice (Dawn), he notes the "Valyrian steel" aspect of it. That's burning red comet, which resembles a black sword covered in blood. Blood red = fire red.

 
Let's step back from this a minute. Yes, the sword is covered in blood, but whose blood is it? It's Ned's blood. And what is Ned's blood symbolic of, if not self-sacrifice? Ned may not have realized that the price would be his life, but he proved more than willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of his family and more specifically Sansa. The blood of self-sacrifice, yet the sword still burns red. 

Lightbringer turns red in the Azor Ahai story when it is thrust into Nissa Nissa's heart. Beric's sword burns red (in the darkness of the cave) when he coats it with blood. Black Valyrian steel is made with blood sacrifice. Ned's black Ice becomes covered in blood, so he dips it in the black pond to clean it.  Blood, darkness, death, nightfall, and the comet. Glass candles also seem to require blood to activate. All Valyrian magic is rooted in blood and fire - and they make black swords through a magic process.

 
But, if we look at the tale as told, Nissa Nissa sacrificed herself willingly to temper the sword. Same thing with Beric. He uses his own blood to coat his sword, not the blood of another. Sounds like more examples of self-sacrifice to me. In both cases the sword burns red.

If Jon is rejecting blood sacrifice and dark sorcery, he should NOT, under any circumstances, have a red sword. What happens in his dream when his sword is red? He acts out the actions of the Bloodstone Emperor, usurping and murdering his sibling, and of Azor Ahai, murdering his love with a black sword burning red. Red fire sword always equals death. Jon can't tell his friends from his enemies with that red sword.

 
I find it hard to equate the red sword to death. Who in this series is equated more with death than the Others, and yet their swords burn a cold blue, just like their blood. To me, it seems that red just might be the color of self-sacrifice. In reality, Jon was responsible for neither Ygritte's or Robb's death, yet he holds himself accountable. He had to sacrifice their safety, along with his own desires to be true to his duty. In effect, they are the victims of his own self-sacrifice in his eyes. 

It's this pale WHITE sword which returns color to the world, and is associated with beginnings.  Again, it needs be said, the only occurrences of a red dawn are heavily death-aspected, not associated with hope. In the Arya scene above, after thinking about Ned's Valyrian steel sword covered in blood and the red comet, she thinks of Jon Snow. She despairs because she knows she cannot go to the Wall and say hi, though she wishes she could. 
 
So in other words, if that white sword does burn red, that means it's received blood sacrifice, and that probably won't be a good thing.

 
Unless, of course, it continues to be the blood of self-sacrifice.  

It is the previous chapter at nightfall that Jon sees the streaks of red fire turning to rivers of black ice. But Dawn brings all the colors, and red is not even mentioned here.  Now to be fair, just before this, before the sun rises, there is a "deep red blush to the east." But that happens before the sun comes up, as the stars are going out. The dawn light itself has no red here. The sword in the darkness burns red, and brings the dawn, seems to be the message. But when dawn arrives, there is no more red. Dawn itself brings all the colors back.

Yes, but Jon's battle also occurs before the sun rises. Maybe by the time the actual dawn comes, there will no longer be reason for the sword to burn at all. The battle is done.

[Lady Dyanna]

[Spoiler]

LmL, I was thinking about Dawn the sword yesterday, and I swear came to this same conclusion independently.  Opened up this thread and here it was, with all the quotes and everything! And showing that Jon's dream was a re-enactment of the blood betrayal! I never saw that but I think you are exactly right.  And the above relates to Jon AND Dany.
 
Here's how I got to this reasoning.  I'm skipping out the AA myth because the thing confuses me, and I think it's twisted and false anyway, and for the moment all astronomy. I am just reconstructing out of my own head as a brief summary, taking in Dany's vision of the God-Emperors in her HotU, the Amethyst empress and the milky sword, Sly Wren's comments about blood sacrifice, etc.
 
First, something should be said about the milky swords in the HotU vision that I think has been missed.  There are not a whole lot of swords.  Dany is seeing the god-emperors all at once, but they are a sequence not a mass.  And each of them carry that same sword, so it is an inheritance passed down from one to the other. I believe Dawn, then, is not one of many, but unique, its purpose is to IDENTIFY the true God-Emperor, and it has a power we don't yet know about. (This is so Arthurian but then so are the Daynes in toto).  In a sense, the writers are giving us the Daynes and Dawn's back history, either as a mirror of Westeros or as a sequence.
 
So here's my little reconstruction of the Daynes and Dawn's back history in a way that makes sense to me, and how it relates to Jon and Dany.  The Amethyst Empress (purple-eyed) is murdered and usurped by her brother the Bloodstone Emperor.  But her children escape (and honestly, these secret children, switched children, hidden heirs have been such a trope in the books that I don't even consider this a jump) with the sword - that can identify their heritage if the time ever comes - and flee to the furthest continent, Westeros, to hide themselves from the Bloodstone Emperor.  (This  mirrors Dany and Viserys fleeing from Robert - it's all in where you stand! - so I am finally understanding that usurper imagery you and J. Stargaryan talked about, LmL).  
 
Where's the proof: we have a purple-eyed people with a greatsword Dawn living in Westeros today.  The Amethyst empress line did not die out.  Amethyst Empress, milky white sword, from the GEof DAWN.  This means that while they might have named Starfall after Dawn's original meteor origin in Asshai, there was no meteor in Dorne from which the sword was made.  
 
What's more, the advent of the purple-eyed to Westeros is followed by a mass exodus of First Men from Essos across the Arm of Dorne.  Why?  I would suggest they are fleeing slavery and worse in the Not-So-Great Empire of the Dawn after the BSE and his descendants take charge.  A Braavos-like retreat to a land that never has a history of slavery over thousands of years? Because that's what it seems like. Moses and the Red Sea.  Yandel says it made no sense the Children broke the Arm when Westeros was already filled with First Men. It does make sense if it was not the First Men they were protecting Westeros from, but from a greater threat - their pursuers.  This would be the CotF first alliance I think with the purple-eyed people and the First Men, or in fact the CotF weren't involved at all.  That sword did it!   Many of the foul descendents and minions, shadow-cursed, of the Bloodstone Emperor were swept away by the sea.  We have one clue to this: the one island near Essos, which would have been one of the first areas to cross of the former Arm of Dorne towards Westeros is called Bloodstone Island.  This is where the shadowspawn rearguard didn't get swept away and there are descendents likely living there now, in fact they likely spread to Valyria and Slaver's Bay.  The First Men/CotF pact we hear about follows hard upon this breaking, and maybe precedes it.
 
Doesn't this have echoes in Dany and Jon's stories?  Dany's first acts - instincts - are to free the slaves, at a time when we might all agree she should be concentrating on other issues.  Jon's are to save the wildlings from their pursuers, the Others, at a time when it would be wiser - for himself - to consolidate his command and not alienate his Brothers.  These two are enacting in their own way the Moses role of the purple-eyed people as leaders and saviours of the First Men, because they are the inheritors of that bloodline and tradition.
 
But there's a difference between them that is glaring that can be traced once again to the past.  I am not going to go into the Long Night here except to say defeating it was accomplished without dragons. So there is no reason to believe they need to be used during the next one.
 
The difference between Jon and Dany is that Dany has touched the "shadow" and Jon has not.  If, after the Long Night, a branch of the purple-eyed people went to Essos, and became the Valyrians, then the Church of the Starry Eyes or whoever's purpose was realized.  The Valyrians are corrupted versions of the purple-eyed people.  What's more, they were purposefully corrupted.  There might have been dragons in the Fourteen Flames, but the shadow binders from Asshai taught the Valyrians how to tame them with sorcery and blood magic.  So this is where I have a major problem with Quaithe, and think I might be in disagreement with you, LmL and Sly Wren and others.  Quaithe is a shadow binder who tells Dany she must touch the shadow to know the truth.  
 
But that is not what Dany's ancestors tell her.  In that vision in the House, what do these emperors lining the hall tell Dany to do? They tell her to run faster.  I had already explained in another post, that i had seen that darkness that was lurching behind her as her dragon self, something she must turn to embrace, something that Quaithe tells her she must embrace, something we think she must.  But that's not what the dawn emperors are telling her at all.  They are telling her to run away from it as fast as you can. And she tries. The problem is that she has already passed a line by the time she gets that vision in the HotU, she has committed blood sacrifice and fire magic in burning Mirri, and she has also participated indirectly in a blood betrayal of Viserys (she could have stopped Drogo).  So she comes to a dead end and must turn around and walk right into it, reversing the already-reversed chronological order of the images so that the first one is the last, and her fate.  The beautiful woman being fucked and chewed on by 'dwarves' is Westeros but it is also Dany, potential amethyst empress reborn, shadow cursed if she embraces her dragon self.
 
Doesn't this too make sense of the split red door imagery we were talking about in the last thread?  The red door offers her protection for her human self on the one hand, but transformation to her dragon self on the other, another kind of protection.  She has to choose and she chooses dragons.  I don't know if she can step back from that, or meld it somehow. 
 
Another question is: did she ever have a choice?  She comes from a line already corrupted.  But could she choose not to become so herself and thus become a possible saviour instead of possible destroyer?  Or was it inevitable even before she birthed her dragons and did not stop her brother from dying?  This is an essential question for me when considering Jon's heritage.  If he comes from Rhaegar's line instead of Arthur's, does he even have a choice?
 
I will say this: anything that comes from Asshai is poison to descendants of the purple-eyed people.  However well-intentioned, Melisandre from Asshai was poison to Stannis, and she will be poison to Jon if he allows her to influence him.  The shadow-binders who taught the Valyrians to tame dragons were poison to that people, making them conquerors and slavers of the worst kind, engaged in blood betrayal after betrayal slaughtering their cousins and brothers in the Dance with Dragons, in imitation of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Quaithe encouraging Dany to touch the shadow is offering poisonous advice.  And the main one is that the prophecy of Azor Ahai, that came from Asshai, is poison, a twisted version of the truth that will lead to destruction. That is the prophecy, targeted at the already corrupted line of the Targaryans, that Dany is fulfilling and it could lead to her own and the world's destruction.
 
The Citadel's Maesters are not wholly wrong.
 
So now I come to Jon, who I am more and more feeling might be Arthur's rather than Rhaegar's.  What do we know about the Daynes?  That they conquered their region but preferred to stay there, not challenging the Martells. They might have practiced incest because the purple eyes still seem a strong trait, but not found outside the house, and this practice might have been passed on to their cadet branch, the Valyrians.  The Daynes would not have been keeping the blood of the dragon 'pure'; they were keeping the blood of the Amethyst Empress pure, which must endow them with something.  They feel "hidden" in many ways.  The Swords of the Morning are chosen from among them (probably by the women, our Ladies of the Lake)  with Dawn going to the worthiest person and best warrior most likely, I would suggest, able to resist temptation and fight the "shadows" internally and externally.  They are an old line, 10,000 years, going back to the first of the First Men.  They carry the original Dawn, not the Valyrians (who do attempt to make copies in imitation of it but with much different materials), so their line is probably the most direct or concentrated from the Amethyst Empress.  The names of their keeps are steeped in Arthuriana, so this whole "true king" thing with the excalibur sword is a good mirror for the Amethyst empress myth.
 
Is this Jon's heritage?  I'd prefer him to be the true Great Emperor of the Dawn, wielder of Dawn, the Shadowchaser (Eldric) than a weak copy of Dany's Lightbringer, which is all being Rhaegar's kid is actually shaping up to be. 
 
And I can't help feeling that if the Valyrians and their dragons made flesh are an offshoot of the Daynes, then so are the Others.  What happens when you take the red, the fire, out of purple?  You're left with cold and blue.  
 
Wow I could just keep going, so I better stop.  This began as support for LmL that the sword should not burn red unless there's been a blood magic sacrifice, and then turned into a saga.  All the jumble in my head from yesterday poured out.  Where do you guys think I'm going wrong with this logic?

[/spoiler]
:bowdown: You have some really great ideas in here! Not sure that I agree with all of them, but a lot of it makes quite a bit of sense. Especially the flight of the descendants of the AE. I'm not sure if Dawn came with them or not, but with all of the early dragon like built creations that the current people of Westeros can't account for, it certainly makes sense to have had at least some immigration from the GEotD.

As for Jon's parentage. I'm beginning to think that there might be more of a hexagon surrounding both him and Dany. I'm probably completely off base, but I think that Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, Arthur, Ashara and Lyanna are all somehow mixed together in this. I'm not sure about who played what part, but somehow the more that I look at it, the more complicated it becomes. Or maybe my brain is just protesting being made to think so much! ;)