From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

[Sly Wren]

291-300

#291 LmL                

Posted Today, 06:05 PM

DarkSister1001, on 30 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:

Right on.  Is that the Mythical Astronomy of Ice & Fire?  That symbolism called to mind the movie "Nell" with Jodi Foster & Liam Neeson.  "Skewer in the belly."   

yep. that's the one. I haven't seen that movie but the double entendre of the "sword thrust" has gotten around, that's for sure. The entire concept of obelisks comes from the Ben Ben stone and the concept of the Shiva-linga. All penis, all the time. Mankind is still a 3 year old staring at his own junk going "hey what's that thing? It's just so FASCINATING"

        

#292 wolfmaid7

Posted Today, 09:19 PM

LmL, on 30 Sept 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

I mean I think reasonable people can disagree, but I read the following and I'm not seeing you angle. And I don't think it's relevant what you or I would do in their situation - we are human - and the whole point of the cotf, those who sing the song of earth , is that they are not like humans. They think differently, they live ion a different scale. Anyway, the following seems really unambiguous to me:

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. “Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once.

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.  (ADWD, Bran)

It's presented as a pretty clear dichotomy - men would do this, children do that. I'm not seeing any hint of a secret plan. Leaf is acknowledging that "the time will come" for them, the direwolves, all the magical creatures. This is their long dwindling - I don't see any signs of increased activity in the world. They've been slowly fading for a long time. I am not remembering anything that would indicate that Leaf's journey was anything unusual - I imagine they occasionally go out in to the world in disguise, because Leaf knew how to do it, you know? Some one showed her, I would imagine. Likewise, we don't know how long the tradition of having a human greenseer in the Bloodraven cave has been going on for - did Bloodraven replace someone? What about before him? We don't even know why the children need a human greenseer instead of a cotf greenseer. In any case, my point is that Leaf seems to be acknowledging that their sun is setting, their time has come, etc etc. I just don't see anything about revolution or drastically changing the world.

Now I could be wrong - there's a LOT we don't know about them, I'm just taking bout my basic gut reaction from the text. Perhaps there's a quote I'm not thinking of. I dunno... I just think the children are supposed to be like "elves" - they are close to nature, they don't think like men, etc. If they do act violently, it's going to be in defense of nature, which I imagine we agree on. That's a scenario I could certainly see. But I'd probably be in favor of whatever they were doing in that situation, because violation of nature offends me, you know?  I'm a militant environmentalist, dammit. Anyway... 

I think we are on the same page here, actually. They have an afterlife, which seems a lot like a universal consciousness state. At most, it's a shadow on the soul of an animal a future skinchanger can sort of feel. That's fine by me - George can depict an afterlife however he wants, it's still a death state, a Bardo realm, etc. 

But if a cotf greenseer helped create an Other, or tried to raise the dead, well now... that's a different story. That's a violation, or perhaps we should say "abomination."

Oh I don't imagine I was the first person to figure that out, it's a pretty big theme that a lot of people probably saw on the first read, whereas I took many re-reads to start thinking that way. I only meant I was just talking about that topic upthread. But it's an important topic, for sure. I thin kit's one of the few clear moral guidelines in the story - don't upset the balance. Between anything - ice and fire, light and dark, life and death, the cycles of the seasons... all of it. It's all about the "Lord of Harmony." In a world with lots of grey characters and difficult moral quandaries, it's important to see that there is a fundamental, universal value of right and wrong. 

Well, we definitely don't know i the seasons were eve balanced. There's a bit in the Worldbook which suggests some maesters think it was once regular - and obviously they are only speculating, but I thought it was iterating that the idea was inserted in there in the first place. The main reason I tend to think they were balanced is because of two reasons: one, the seasons are super funky, it's a central mystery, and if they were never balanced, there's kind of... no mystery, you know? The big fun answer would be "here's how the season got a f*cked up.." and we'd all be like "ahhh... cool..." which is really what fantasy is all about, the wow factor. Even with someone who writes like George does, this is still important, I think.

The second reason is that my whole astronomy scenario suggests that the seasons were regular. Even assuming I've got various specifics wrong, if there's any truth at all to the idea that a second moon-like object used to exist, and was struck by a comet in the dawn age resulting in greasy black stone meteors, and that this was the cause of the Long Night... I mean if any part of that is remotely close to the truth, we have smoking gun (smoking sword) evidence to suggest something drastic happened to alter the seasons. The more detailed layer of my theory, that the destroyed moon in the past was some kind of molten "fire moon" which had something to do with the nature of fire magic on planetos, and that the remaining moon is the "ice moon," similarly tied to ice magic on Planetos... it kind of suggests that the seasons themselves were kept in balance by these two magical ice and fire moons, and that whatever disaster befell the second moon at the time of the Long Night is what threw the seasons out of whack.

The way I see it is that fire magic was tied to the area which is now "the Shadow" by Asshai, and that it used to be more like a "heart of summer" to stand on the equator, whereas the "heart of winter" is at the north pole or whatever. When the fire moon was burned and exploded, that mirrored Dany's waking of dragons from stone in the pyre of her "solar king" Khal Drogo, her "sun and stars." Dany undergoes a fire transformation of some kind, where she "has the fire inside her" as Mel does when having an ecstatic fore transformation/ vision experience. This is what happened to the moon - it had the fire inside of, and it gave birth to black shadows. Just like the black shadow Mel birthed, just like Drogon the winged shadow (whose wings have a habit of "darkening the world," etc.). Just like burnt and corpse-stinking baby Rhaego. All the children of the sun and moon which represent Lightbringer represent shadow, darkness, corrupted fire magic, etc. That's the way I see it, anyway.

 

The idea of these almost black dragon-forged Valyrian steel swords is very similar - Ned's sword "drinks the light." The dragons meteors of the Qarthine legend "drank the sun's fire." You'll recall that the greasy black stone of Assshai also "drinks the light," and that entire area is in fact shadowed in general. I hope you catch my drift, agree or not - when the fire moon bit the dust, it had a corresponding effect on earth. Fire magic, either at Asshai / Shadowlands or just overall, everywhere, became "shadowed." Black fire, shadow fire, it's all the same idea. The black dragons breathe black fire, the dragon swords are black, sun-drinking swords, and so to, the black meters, which I think are the same thing as the greasy black stone.  It's basically similar to a Lovecraft meteor - they drink light and color and leech the life from things. They are magical and toxic.  Everything we know about places like Yeen, Isle of Toads, Asshai, etc, seems to point in this direction.

So, to finish the idea of what happened to the seasons and fire magic on earth, and why the Long Night fell.. those black moon meteors, having been burned black and transformed by the sun'd fiery comet sword of destruction, now fall down to earth and cause further mayhem.  One falls on the arm of Dorne, looking like a sun-spear, and is remembered as the Hammer of the Waters. I think think the reason George named one of the Stepstones Islands "Bloodstone" was to leave a clue about this.   If greenseers did cause the comet - moon collision (meaning of Azor Ahai is the the Bloodstone Emperor and a greenseer as I suggest), the "greenseers did drop the Hammer of the Waters."  I like this because George seems to like to give each myth a part of the truth, but distorted in some way. So I think it fits. 

There are only two thing which can cause a nuclear winter, besides actual nuclear weapons - a supermassive volcanic eruption, or a large comet impact. I think the Long Night was a magical version of a nuclear winter - which just means "so much debris is thrown in to the atmosphere that it blocks the sunlight for several years leading to grey and purple days and very poor farming."  This would be similar tot he idea that the Doom was a magical version of a large volcanic eruption. Now imagine a few of these burnt and shadow-transformed chunks of fire moon crashing down on the planet. Not only do we get the normal result - floods (Durran Godsgrief), earthquakes (giants awoke in the earth), and nuclear-winter level atmospheric debris (don't forget the debris from the destroyed MOON  )... but we also get the corruption of fire magic, right at the heart near Asshai, and we get the localized toxic, necromantic magic of these black stones. The Bloodstone Emperor worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky, and he definitely did him the necromancy. 

I have a theory about a moon meter lodged somewhere in the ice having to do with the Others, but I have gone on long enough for now. That's my tale on the seasons... whew. 

I would be the first to agree with you and infact have pointed out before that the children "did" think differently that's why they basically lost the wars with the FM and the Andals.The WB gave a story about how Gendel and Gorne were able to swindle a Clan of COTF and Giants out of  a cave they were fighting for and it is this "guile" is what  i think they was missing.

Now consider who "do" they have sitting on their throne as a Shaman? One of the best strategic players of the game.BR isn't bringing nothing to the table,he's adding his way of thinking to the collective.

So lets look at that now,weigh who they had and for how long and look at the quote again a different way

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.  (ADWD, Bran)"

We have her retelling of what used to be.i.e They had the Giants and low numbers to keep them under control.That was at the begining.Leaf's statement isn't contradictory we maybe just reading it wrong therefore when we read it wrong it becomes contradictory.Sun rising may have nothing to do with their population but their status in the land because in the next line she says the Giants are almost gone those who were their brothers in life in the environment and their bane who helped keep  them in check interms of numbers. So in light of that what do we think happened to their population?

Leaf is actually giving us two reply one that evokes sympathy from Bran and has truth in it;the other message is behind her words its in the logic of what she's saying.They had Giants to keep them in check,humans at one point decimated them and approximately 8,000yrs left them quite alone.

Now getting back to the final line and again we need to take this in totallity especially the statement you quoted and the one below.

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

Now i'll go back to the connotation of the statement you quoted,the obvious which you pointed out but the other which is in the COTFs worldview.They understand that their survival and the survival of the other creatures around them depended on a balance they needed to have somethingto offset them and now that something is all but gone.So we maybe looking at them being more than what we think they had in numbers.Is it possible that in the thousands of years they've had time to recover because they were left in isolation and their control is but extinct. 

Now lets look at the other problem we have a species in the land with no known predator except itself...Man.

Leaf's whole speech is about how the delicate balance among the beings are off we may not know if they had a population growth spurt but we know for danm sure breeding,war,expanding and consuming resources is a human malady.So Leaf's quote which i quoted above does infer that BR hung around for them also so they are not going to just accept their fate else she wouldn't have said that.What we should consider in light of their worldview what does "for them,and the realms of men look like" 

Does it mean a culling of the apex predator? Maybeee.Them that may not be a bad thing,but what ensue survival of both species.They would essentially be introducing a kind of wolf for humans.

I would liken the COTF to Fae folk than elves because based on how Bran got to the cave and the story of the LH.

So if what we know about them is true that they are skinchangers and they had a greenseer that meant they always had eyes in the forest right.So they waited till this dude lost all his friends,his horse and poor fido and until the others were snapping at his heals to offer help? Yeahhhh i call that knowing that your enemy is  ore likely to say yes to whatever deal your offering when he's lost everything.That's a fae move right there,helping you for sure but having some other angle.I dub that the "Rumplestilskin ploy".

On the seasons its all a matter of context,we know that magic is the reason the seasons are messed up and that may have nothing to do with a second moon getting destroyed.Which in itself could be just one of those cosmic things that happen in the universe and life would either acclimate or cease to exist if it didn't.I'm thinking this is more closer to home i just don't see any amount of sorcery in this story having the juice to cause a comet to obliterate a moon.

Now the reason i think it may never have been regular is a contextual thing,all life on planetos is cool with this whatever happened in the distant pass has no bearing on these people because they have been used to it.Long summers,long winters,short summers short winters that are sporadic as hell.Why i think its closer to home is magically any alterations is possible and to me that has to do with the greenseers. Nothing no one can do is going to put another moon in the sky.That's a done deal unless they can magic a moon to replace the old one that story line to me is dead.

Edited by wolfmaid7, Today, 09:43 PM.

        

#293 Sly Wren                    

Posted 42 minutes ago

LmL, on 30 Sept 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

I agree. And good points about kinslaying and needle both. I think someone has mentioned the idea of needle sewing things up before... somewhere... sometime.. not sure. Makes sense though. I like it. It might just mean that a sword can be a sewing needle, or it could mean Arya's specific sword. Or it could mean Arya will be a sword that is a needle. Or it could be all three! 

I second this re: Needle--Sweetsunray has argued about Arya's concepts of justice vs. mere violence. I keep hoping this analysis is right. Ned makes it clear to Bran that using a sword for executions is not something that should be done lightly. You should look a man in the eye, hear his words, etc. Could also mean--violence is not a solution per se. Have to have justice with it.

The Stark kids seem to have learned that--Robb's executing Karstark in front of a heart tree. Jon's stopping himself from hang in Slynt and instead executing him himself. So, a sword as a needle--carefully and surgically applied. Not a scythe or a hammer--precise. I could see that as seeing things up.

And I like the idea that a sword is part of the solution--back to Arthur cutting Jaime with Dawn, saying "blood is the seal of our devotion." Swords must be used "rightly." Sewing things up vs. just tearing down. It works.

Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

Once there were 2 moons in the sky, but one moon got to close to the Sun and hatched dragons.

2 moons=2 wives    Elia and Lyanna   Sun=Rhaegar who impregnated Lyanna to give birth to Jon

Azor Ahai had to thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa= Rhaegar doing the deed with Lyanna

Lyanna died like Nissa Nissa giving light/life to Lightbringer/Jon

I buy that to an extent. Difference: in the legend, AA knew he was killing his wife to make an existing sword stronger. While childbirth carries innate risk, especially in medieval times, it isn't an innate death sentence. 

So, the idea of a person's being a sword--yes. We see Jon use that metaphor in his first POV--"I'm the better sword." But that the myth only means a person--can't see that yet.

DarkSister1001, on 30 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:

Right on.  Is that the Mythical Astronomy of Ice & Fire?  That symbolism called to mind the movie "Nell" with Jodi Foster & Liam Neeson.  "Skewer in the belly."   

HA! I'd completely forgotten that movie. But it does apply to Barbrey and Brandon.

LmL, on 30 Sept 2015 - 5:05 PM, said:

yep. that's the one. I haven't seen that movie but the double entendre of the "sword thrust" has gotten around, that's for sure. The entire concept of obelisks comes from the Ben Ben stone and the concept of the Shiva-linga. All penis, all the time. Mankind is still a 3 year old staring at his own junk going "hey what's that thing? It's just so FASCINATING"

True enough. Still, back to the needle idea--Martin does seem to argue for some discretion, for all kinds of swords.

Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

I believe that the AA hero from legend is who the Daynes associate from with having his weapon Dawn.

The Sword of the Morning title is in my mind another intrepretation of the R'hllor prophecy of Azor Ahai coming again

Could be--though I'm still leaning in the direction of "AA not a good guy." 

On this note--when Mel looks in her fires and asks to see AA. Does she want to see the "real" AA? The guy who killed his wife? Or does she want to see what she thinks AA is--a savior? 

In other words, when she sees only "Snow"--is that because Jon is actually AA? Or because he's what Mel thinks AA is?

Am hoping that actually makes sense.

        

#294 Sly Wren                    

Posted 34 minutes ago

Lady Barbrey, on 30 Sept 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

That's the main question for me in regards to this question of whether it is a good thing or not: does Martin's world believe in a soul's continuance free of flesh/earth - i.e. as spirit in some kind of afterlife?  I think of Beric here - he wanted to be free of his flesh, it was a prison for him.  Religiously (and in many mythologies), flesh=earth.  In this story as well, souls don't seem to leave their bones completely.  The dragons and the Stark bones seem to have some sort of consciousness in them, creating a mood or emotion of animosity or acceptance as the case may be.  That doesn't seem right to me - it's like skinchanging remnants that can't leave.  Varamyr only has a semblance of freedom because he's in a wolf.  Imagine being stuck in some bones in a crypt.   The wolf is home to him and he prefers it to a real death, but he doesn't know what a real death is. His refusal to take that step, cheating death in a way - I doubt the Faceless Men would approve!

1. I had not made the connection between the dragons and the Stark bones--this will take some thinking on. But is it Stark bones alone with "consciousness" in them? When the wolf bites the arm and feels the life in it until the bone breaks--seems like the life is in any human bone, no? Or were you meaning something else.

2. Agree re: Varamyr. But am wondering if the problem is that he is tied to this life because he's afraid to die. Some of his memories re: deaths are truly horrifying. So, if he flits about after dying trying to hold to something, is that because he's actually bound or because he wants to stay? Not sure if that makes any sense, but as you say--he's trying to cheat death. Is that why he's bound, not just because he's a skinchanger?

3. The crypt--is the Starks are bound--are they permanently bound? Or just bound until "the horn wakes the sleepers" as we discussed before? My brain's now on a flight of fancy: if the horn wakes sleeping Starks, what happens once they've fought their battle? Do they go free, like Aragorn's oath breakers? Is it all over? Or does it start again--with all future buried Starks waiting to be called? No way to answer this yet--but your "bound to stone and earth" ideas made my brain a bit spinny.

 

        

#295 Sly Wren                    

Posted 8 minutes ago

wolfmaid7, on 29 Sept 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

Here is where i diagree with you a bit more.I think that though the COTF accept that death is a part of the cycle that version includes an afterlife that is very active in nature.Hell they go into the crows and are very much involved in interacting with the living .So yes they do accept death but they do not accept permanancy  as in dead as a doornail ,transion into another form existing as something else...Yeah.

Agreed. And that transition may be threatened by a world in which "there is no place" for them. So, maybe not fighting for survival now, but for survival after death.

wolfmaid7, on 29 Sept 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

Yeah i'm not much into the  color or gemstone as codes its actually to confounding and creates a situation where there's no uniqueness as it can be superimposed to readily.

The dreagons i feel are creatures out of time that is being woken when they weren't suppose to be.Its an interesting question about Dawn i mean is it something more waiting to be quickened or is it just a shiny.

Agreed re: the dragons. I'm still trying to figure out if Dany was "meant" to have them like the Stark kids and their wolves. Or is Dany "took" the dragons. Like some of her Targ relatives tried to do. If so, the "woken out of time" argument gets dangerous.

"Dawn being quickened"--I like that phrasing. But I'm not sure either. The Others' swords seem "alive"--glowing faintly blue while their icy armor just reflects the ambient light. Suggests swords can emit their own light. But a sword needing "quickening"--am liking this. But not sure how it would work. . . 

wolfmaid7, on 29 Sept 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

More or less i agree with everything said here.

Cheers right back at ya!

        

#296 Nozlym

Posted 4 minutes ago

Sly Wren, on 30 Sept 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:

I buy that to an extent. Difference: in the legend, AA knew he was killing his wife to make an existing sword stronger. While childbirth carries innate risk, especially in medieval times, it isn't an innate death sentence.

again ur thinking to literal here. Rhaegar knew he needed another son so he went and had it with Lyanna. He didn't know it would kill her.

Sly Wren, on 30 Sept 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:

Could be--though I'm still leaning in the direction of "AA not a good guy." 

ya im with u on that note but there is still some confusion for me on AA. on one point u have him as THE hero, but then u have him as the villain. such as the BSE who most definitley seems like the villain and might be considerable candidate to be AA. but then we r getting into these metaphors where AA isnt the hero but was responsible creating the hero Lightbringer. like Rhaegar thinking the prophecy was about him ie; Azor Ahai but then figuring out he isnt so having to make his Lightbringer a.k.a Jon.

maybe the whole AA story is about two sides of the story. from ones perspective hes the hero like Jon for the wildlings. but another is hes the villain like Jon potentialy being the King and dethroning the Lannisters. 2 sides of the same coin. just like Rhaegars story. a lot of ppl see him as the bad guy but the more informed ppl ie; us readers know he wasnt.

Sly Wren, on 30 Sept 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:

On this note--when Mel looks in her fires and asks to see AA. Does she want to see the "real" AA? The guy who killed his wife? Or does she want to see what she thinks AA is--a savior? 

In other words, when she sees only "Snow"--is that because Jon is actually AA? Or because he's what Mel thinks AA is?

Am hoping that actually makes sense.

i think she was geniunely trying to look for who she thinks is AA who is Stannis but keeps getting shown something different who is actually AA but doesnt think to figure out y

 

#297 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 10:42 AM

Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

again ur thinking to literal here. Rhaegar knew he needed another son so he went and had it with Lyanna. He didn't know it would kill her.

Fair enough. But, by the same token, if the myth is about forging a sword/child, the multiple tries, killing the lion, forging in water--makes reading it ONLY as a child a bit difficult. Whereas Jon ties his identity (or the identity he wants) to a sword in Game. When Mormont gives him Longclaw, he thinks about how much he wants Ice and all that it symbolizes. A lot of Jon's development is literally tied to swords. So, "Lightbringer" as just a person--if the Lightbringer myth ends up being about Jon, really think it takes a specific sword, too. 

I should confess I’m not fully sold on the "Rhaegar took Lyanna for to fulfill prophecy" theory. I DO think it's a possibility. But I'm not sold on it yet. Or on other options.

Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

ya im with u on that note but there is still some confusion for me on AA. on one point u have him as THE hero, but then u have him as the villain. such as the BSE who most definitley seems like the villain and might be considerable candidate to be AA. but then we r getting into these metaphors where AA isnt the hero but was responsible creating the hero Lightbringer. like Rhaegar thinking the prophecy was about him ie; Azor Ahai but then figuring out he isnt so having to make his Lightbringer a.k.a Jon.

maybe the whole AA story is about two sides of the story. from ones perspective hes the hero like Jon for the wildlings. but another is hes the villain like Jon potentialy being the King and dethroning the Lannisters. 2 sides of the same coin. just like Rhaegars story. a lot of ppl see him as the bad guy but the more informed ppl ie; us readers know he wasnt.

I Agree: One way or another, the AA myth has Lightbringer bringing light. Killing a monster. These are good things, no matter haow the sword was forged. And I fully agree with the mixed natures of Rhaegar and Jon. Especially on how they are seen. How the mistakes they made are seen and how they turn out. Martin hasn't created a world of paragons (thank heavens). The idea that tainted or fallen people can lead to good/helpful results--that seems set.

Like Oathkeeper--a sword stolen, used to kill its rightful owner, broken, colored--then given to Brienne. Who, while not overly effective in her various quests, is a very good knight. Values and morality-wise. That sword seems like it's likely to do good in her hands. Despite its history. And how it was forged into its current state by the Lannisters.

Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

i think she was geniunely trying to look for who she thinks is AA who is Stannis but keeps getting shown something different who is actually AA but doesnt think to figure out y

Fair enough. Just saying--if AA isn't a hero, if there needs to be a different hero, she may be seeing the hero she actually wants. Not AA.

Am now stuck with the image of Mel singing "I Need a Hero!" in my head. Please, please, HBO--don't include this in an episode! Or ever!

        

#298 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Yesterday, 11:34 AM

Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

again ur thinking to literal here. Rhaegar knew he needed another son so he went and had it with Lyanna. He didn't know it would kill her.

ya im with u on that note but there is still some confusion for me on AA. on one point u have him as THE hero, but then u have him as the villain. such as the BSE who most definitley seems like the villain and might be considerable candidate to be AA. but then we r getting into these metaphors where AA isnt the hero but was responsible creating the hero Lightbringer. like Rhaegar thinking the prophecy was about him ie; Azor Ahai but then figuring out he isnt so having to make his Lightbringer a.k.a Jon.

maybe the whole AA story is about two sides of the story. from ones perspective hes the hero like Jon for the wildlings. but another is hes the villain like Jon potentialy being the King and dethroning the Lannisters. 2 sides of the same coin. just like Rhaegars story. a lot of ppl see him as the bad guy but the more informed ppl ie; us readers know he wasnt.

i think she was geniunely trying to look for who she thinks is AA who is Stannis but keeps getting shown something different who is actually AA but doesnt think to figure out y

I don't believe Rhaegar is Jon's father by the way ,but just a curiosity did Rhaegar have a crystal ball or a genetics program whereby he "knew" he would get another son.I mean 

As to the perspective view of AA i agree Davos on hearing this story from allador couldn't help but say man heroes are made of something else because he couldn't imagine kiling his wife.We actually don't know the particulras if this is real did he do what he did because he felt he was the one that needed to do these feats.Or did he make these sacrifices in order so he can be the one that did these amazing things.

Either way i agree with Davos if that's what it takes to be a hero ehhhh ouch.

        

#299 DarkSister1001                   

Posted Yesterday, 12:02 PM

I just had a thought.  Someone brought up BR being a little surprised when Bran referred to him as this Three-Eyed Crow.  Perhaps they are different beings.  I may be a little all-over-the-place but please take the journey with me…

A serious illness or brush with death seems to be a necessary element to connect with the Old God’s.  Jojen got his Green Dreams after a fever, Bran’s coma dream, Ned’s fever dream, Jaime’s weirwood dream after losing his hand, etc.

Dany’s fever dream telling her to wake the dragon is eerily similar to Jon’s dream that was first discussed.  They both see themselves as warriors.  Dany is in Rhaeger’s armor and Jon is armored in ice.  Jon dreams of dead mean and Dany dreams of shadows (shadows and shade are regularly used to described spirits of the dead).  Jon lived in Robb’s shadow in life and kills him in his dream.  Dany was always second to Viserys and sees him die in her dream.  There is no crow in either of them.  And (assuming R+L=J) they both have Targaryen blood, like BR.  All are capable of dragon dreams.  Perhaps BR has a different connection with them considering they’re related. 

BR is known to be cunning and ruthless.  Having blood of the FM, being north of the Wall AND a Targaryen means he too could be described as Ice & Fire.  His journey to the cave may have been a calling, like Bran’s.  But now he’s too old to leave and relies on the trees and CotF to live.  He’s a prisoner of sorts and rely’s on his captors.  The CotF are stronger with a human greenseer so they too rely on BR.  They are essential to each other’s survival but they may not agree with each other and they may not have the same plan in mind. 

Are they working towards the end of the Long Night and destruction of the Others, but have different ideas on how to get there?  Viserys was a snot-nosed, entitled, shit.  Dany was not.  She is smart, kind and capable.  She is worthy so BR sends her visions, helps her wake the dragons bc he knows they would be instrumental in defeating the Others and their wights. 

The Children were pretty pissed at the FM for cutting down their trees and war ensued.  Was that bc they were destroying nature or bc they were destroying their eyes?  The Field of Fire comes to mind.  When dragons danced in the skies and laid the area to complete waste.  This could be a fear of the Children.  They would be concerned with the collateral damage.  Winter is coming and what is the point of destroying the enemy if you destroy homes, stores and any remaining crops and leave those lucky enough to survive the war with the Others to die due to starvation and exposure?

Maybe the singers entombed in the cave are reaching out to Bran and Jojen and entering their dreams as the Three-Eyed Crow; whereas BR is reaching out to Dany and Jon to give them dragon dreams?  As well as Jon receiving gifts and dreams from the Old Gods and BR.  Jon being a warg and dragonseed may have the ability to help curb the destruction caused by the dragons killing the Others and bring about balance.  And as Sly Wren so eloquently laid out, Jon is definitely proven himself worthy.

        

#300 Nozlym

Posted Yesterday, 12:27 PM

wolfmaid7, on 01 Oct 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

I don't believe Rhaegar is Jon's father by the way ,but just a curiosity did Rhaegar have a crystal ball or a genetics program whereby he "knew" he would get another son.I mean 

wow i dont see many non believers of R+L=J around here, but Rhaegar did say the dragon must have 3 heads, meaning 3 children. but ur right it isn't specified it had to be a boy, just another child

301-310

#301 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 04:32 PM

Nozlym, on 01 Oct 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

wow i dont see many non believers of R+L=J around here, but Rhaegar did say the dragon must have 3 heads, meaning 3 children. but ur right it isn't specified it had to be a boy, just another child

There are a few ideas floating around. THese are going to be published here on Westeros after we change to the updates forum. But if you want a look now: http://thelasthearth...ys-alternatives

That said, I think Jon can be Lightbringer and/or need to have Dawn with RLJ or with some other options. So, it's all good from my point of view.

        

#302 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 04:37 PM

wolfmaid7, on 01 Oct 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

As to the perspective view of AA i agree Davos on hearing this story from allador couldn't help but say man heroes are made of something else because he couldn't imagine kiling his wife.We actually don't know the particulras if this is real did he do what he did because he felt he was the one that needed to do these feats.Or did he make these sacrifices in order so he can be the one that did these amazing things.

Either way i agree with Davos if that's what it takes to be a hero ehhhh ouch.

I agree: Seems like Davos has put his finger on it--either a hero has to do things no ordinary person would do (morally). Or AA's brand of heroism isn't heroism.

I tend towards the latter in Martin's books. People compromise their values, make mistakes, hurt others and hate themselves for it--but flat out sacrificial murder: that's a whole other ball of wax. Am thinking Davos may have compromised all he can. Those sacrifices via Mel are pushing him past him limit at some point. And it will be a hard day when Davos has to come to terms with either turning away from Stannis or going along with more abominations. I'm thinking it will be the former.

Davos may seem like the everyman, but he's got more heroism in him than Stannis.

        

#303 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 05:05 PM

LmL, on 30 Sept 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Well, we definitely don't know i the seasons were eve balanced. There's a bit in the Worldbook which suggests some maesters think it was once regular - and obviously they are only speculating, but I thought it was iterating that the idea was inserted in there in the first place. The main reason I tend to think they were balanced is because of two reasons: one, the seasons are super funky, it's a central mystery, and if they were never balanced, there's kind of... no mystery, you know? The big fun answer would be "here's how the season got a f*cked up.." and we'd all be like "ahhh... cool..." which is really what fantasy is all about, the wow factor. Even with someone who writes like George does, this is still important, I think.

Okay--I finally have enough time to read this properly--Yay!

First off: I agree. Seems like the seasons might once have been balanced. Natural order of rise and fall, life and death--all of that. For me, the real central mysteries of the novels are "what's up with the seasons?" and "how are the humans going to defeat the Long Night?" The cold is one thing, but the unnaturalness of no light--that's when people started smothering their children. That's when the Others first came "into that darkness."

But am not sure that the seasons ever get fully back on track. Restore night and day--yes. Seasons? Not sure. Am wondering if this is just the price of the tainted world brought on by--blood magic? or the BSE (in your scenario)? or something else? Asshai has gone too far--permanently shadowed. Am kind of assuming that's Lands of Always Winter, too--permanently shadowed. Like Dany says Jorah is "shadowed" after the tent (though oddly she doesn't see herself as shadowed if I remember). But the rest of Martinlandia--can it every regain that perfect balance? Or is that why the Children are dwindling? 

So, Jon with Dawn and all the rest that will go into regaining the dawn--that won't necessarily end the wacky seasons. Or "solve" the problem back to Edenic perfection. I mean, do people ever regain Eden in any story?

LmL, on 30 Sept 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

<snip>

I have a theory about a moon meter lodged somewhere in the ice having to do with the Others, but I have gone on long enough for now. That's my tale on the seasons... whew. 

I'm not sure yet I buy the two moon scenario (though it might explain Dawn--black meteors and white meteors). Nor can I really see how the moons would control the seasons. But even if all you postulate turns out to be true--do you see a scenario where this can be fixed? Can undo the seasonal imbalance?

DarkSister1001, on 01 Oct 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

BR is known to be cunning and ruthless.  Having blood of the FM, being north of the Wall AND a Targaryen means he too could be described as Ice & Fire.  His journey to the cave may have been a calling, like Bran’s.  But now he’s too old to leave and relies on the trees and CotF to live.  He’s a prisoner of sorts and rely’s on his captors.  The CotF are stronger with a human greenseer so they too rely on BR.  They are essential to each other’s survival but they may not agree with each other and they may not have the same plan in mind. 

Are they working towards the end of the Long Night and destruction of the Others, but have different ideas on how to get there?  Viserys was a snot-nosed, entitled, shit.  Dany was not.  She is smart, kind and capable.  She is worthy so BR sends her visions, helps her wake the dragons bc he knows they would be instrumental in defeating the Others and their wights. 

I can completely see this as possible. We've speculated about different factions of COTF over on Heresy. But the idea that the Singers in the cave might have their own plan--am now wondering if that's why the Singer's eyes were following Bran/Hodor. 

THis could make the dynamic very interesting. But it would fit with the novels--people have varying ideas on how to solve problems. Could see that applying to Long Night, or dwindling race, or any of the rest of it. Depending on how the Children define "the problem"--which they haven't yet. Again--makes me worry.

DarkSister1001, on 01 Oct 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

The Children were pretty pissed at the FM for cutting down their trees and war ensued.  Was that bc they were destroying nature or bc they were destroying their eyes?  The Field of Fire comes to mind.  When dragons danced in the skies and laid the area to complete waste.  This could be a fear of the Children.  They would be concerned with the collateral damage.  Winter is coming and what is the point of destroying the enemy if you destroy homes, stores and any remaining crops and leave those lucky enough to survive the war with the Others to die due to starvation and exposure?

On the first--very good question. If they are all about the song of the earth, would be the first. But if that's all it is, why are they recruiting human greenseers that are more powerful? What do they need the power for? And could also be different Children react differently--can't see anything in the texts so far that says they are all the same. We've only met a few.

On the second bolded--hadn't thought of that. Had assumed it was about basic "scorched earth" dominance. But the Targs must have known something about all of this--the Long Night reached far. 

Still, as I've been discussing elsewhere, the Targs and their relation to the Night's Watch seems odd. "Good" Queen Alysane and Jahaerys want to unite the kingdoms. End civil wars. All well and good. They come to hope the Watch. Have them abandon the Nightfort--for a cheaper, smaller, newer castle paid for by the queen. Why? Why not built up the oldest castle (which has the Black Gate) and replenish the Watch? Why did the Watch dwindle so much after the arrival of Targs? Not trying to imply conspiracy, but it does seem odd--the state of the Watch seems to have plummeted during Targ rule. Is that because they saw themselves as potential saviors?

DarkSister1001, on 01 Oct 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Maybe the singers entombed in the cave are reaching out to Bran and Jojen and entering their dreams as the Three-Eyed Crow; whereas BR is reaching out to Dany and Jon to give them dragon dreams?  As well as Jon receiving gifts and dreams from the Old Gods and BR.  Jon being a warg and dragonseed may have the ability to help curb the destruction caused by the dragons killing the Others and bring about balance.  And as Sly Wren so eloquently laid out, Jon is definitely proven himself worthy. 

I can go with a lot of this--except Jon's dragon dreams. His dreams are more crypts and wights. Not dragons. . . 

        

#304 wolfmaid7

Posted 36 minutes ago

Nozlym, on 01 Oct 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

wow i dont see many non believers of R+L=J around here, but Rhaegar did say the dragon must have 3 heads, meaning 3 children. but ur right it isn't specified it had to be a boy, just another child

Yep we out there. I'd say wait until the essays move over so you can read and give your input.The thing about prophecy in GRRM's world is it always come to pass but never in the way people think it will.He did say the dragon must always have three heads and he certainly may think it be three people.But we don't know what Rhaegar had in mind.At the point that he said there is one more he looked at Dany which means that was for her.He may have never done that in the real life setting of the story,but it was for her.So we have no clue he meant to breed the three.

We certainly don't know if the vision is what was,is or could have been.Maybe he never could put the three together but maybe Dany will be.Many ways this could go.

Sly Wren, on 01 Oct 2015 - 3:37 PM, said:

I agree: Seems like Davos has put his finger on it--either a hero has to do things no ordinary person would do (morally). Or AA's brand of heroism isn't heroism.

I tend towards the latter in Martin's books. People compromise their values, make mistakes, hurt others and hate themselves for it--but flat out sacrificial murder: that's a whole other ball of wax. Am thinking Davos may have compromised all he can. Those sacrifices via Mel are pushing him past him limit at some point. And it will be a hard day when Davos has to come to terms with either turning away from Stannis or going along with more abominations. I'm thinking it will be the former.

Davos may seem like the everyman, but he's got more heroism in him than Stannis.

I agree and i always am impressed by GRRMs play on perspective.As readers most of us seem to look at the agents of fire as some means of salvation.Like the characters who pray for an endless summer we ignore the crap that has been done before our eyes.How many people has Mel burnt simply because they don't want to accept Rhollor.Her choice to the free folk,burn the symbol of your gods and we'll give you santuary or,or...go back where you came from......Hard luck.

And AA impales an element,kills a magnificient creature and his wife so he can create a bad ass sword....If he's willing to do that start lining up your babies people hear comes AA.Again we don't know why he did this at the time was there a need to 'save the world' or was there a need to be a man of reknown?

 

#305 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 02:46 AM

wolfmaid7, on 01 Oct 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

Yep we out there. I'd say wait until the essays move over so you can read and give your input.The thing about prophecy in GRRM's world is it always come to pass but never in the way people think it will.He did say the dragon must always have three heads and he certainly may think it be three people.But we don't know what Rhaegar had in mind.At the point that he said there is one more he looked at Dany which means that was for her.He may have never done that in the real life setting of the story,but it was for her.So we have no clue he meant to breed the three.

We certainly don't know if the vision is what was,is or could have been.Maybe he never could put the three together but maybe Dany will be.Many ways this could go.

I agree and i always am impressed by GRRMs play on perspective.As readers most of us seem to look at the agents of fire as some means of salvation.Like the characters who pray for an endless summer we ignore the crap that has been done before our eyes.How many people has Mel burnt simply because they don't want to accept Rhollor.Her choice to the free folk,burn the symbol of your gods and we'll give you santuary or,or...go back where you came from......Hard luck.

And AA impales an element,kills a magnificient creature and his wife so he can create a bad ass sword....If he's willing to do that start lining up your babies people hear comes AA.Again we don't know why he did this at the time was there a need to 'save the world' or was there a need to be a man of reknown?

Yeah, I was trying to explain to someone on another thread (but gave up) that when Martin says he likes the "grey" he doesn't mean we're not supposed to look at an action like burning someone alive and saying "that's evil".  He simply makes the people that do these things humanly understandable so we don't say "he's evil".  Dany's a case in point.  I like the character and I'm looking forward to the ride when she finally swings in on Westeros, but if I lived in those days I'd probably slip some poison in her lemonade to prevent the war crimes sure to follow once those Dothraki cross the sea.

I've been thinking about the AA prophecy (which I never like to do because I think that way lies madness) and it being a false or slanted one.  Certainly a misinterpreted one.  It doesn't seem to fit perfectly on any level - the tempering of the sword I mean.  Water. The heart of a lion. The heart of a wife/lover. We'll likely find out more.  Shouldn't that have referred to all three children of either Rhaegar or Aerys/Rhaella if a person was meant?  For Aerys (assuming Tyrion is his, which I do), he killed Joanna (Tywin's "heart") to produce Tyrion and then Rhaella (to produce Dany, the end product) but who was the water house?  Of Rhaegar's children, two were from water houses, and the third if we presume Jon is RLJ, killing his "lover" but then where is the Lannister lion's heart.  I guess they can be mixed between them but it is hardly a good fit.

So I wondered if Jon as a possible Sword of the Morning is the third attempt over millennia to forge one that will balance the seasons instead of merely delay a threat of ice and/or fire.  That would be interesting to me because I've been assuming the Last Hero was a proto-Dayne but what if his mother was a Lannister?  That would make sense of all the Arthurian imagery that strangely echoes off Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion but in a twisted or only partial way.  And if there was a Sword of the Morning/Last Hero before that, maybe the mother was a water house? A Tully or a Reed - in fact I bet it was a Reed if this is true.  Moat Cailin, the Arm of Dorne.  Just a thought.

 

#306 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 02:46 AM

wolfmaid7, on 01 Oct 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

Yep we out there. I'd say wait until the essays move over so you can read and give your input.The thing about prophecy in GRRM's world is it always come to pass but never in the way people think it will.He did say the dragon must always have three heads and he certainly may think it be three people.But we don't know what Rhaegar had in mind.At the point that he said there is one more he looked at Dany which means that was for her.He may have never done that in the real life setting of the story,but it was for her.So we have no clue he meant to breed the three.

We certainly don't know if the vision is what was,is or could have been.Maybe he never could put the three together but maybe Dany will be.Many ways this could go.

I agree and i always am impressed by GRRMs play on perspective.As readers most of us seem to look at the agents of fire as some means of salvation.Like the characters who pray for an endless summer we ignore the crap that has been done before our eyes.How many people has Mel burnt simply because they don't want to accept Rhollor.Her choice to the free folk,burn the symbol of your gods and we'll give you santuary or,or...go back where you came from......Hard luck.

And AA impales an element,kills a magnificient creature and his wife so he can create a bad ass sword....If he's willing to do that start lining up your babies people hear comes AA.Again we don't know why he did this at the time was there a need to 'save the world' or was there a need to be a man of reknown?

Yeah, I was trying to explain to someone on another thread (but gave up) that when Martin says he likes the "grey" he doesn't mean we're not supposed to look at an action like burning someone alive and saying "that's evil".  He simply makes the people that do these things humanly understandable so we don't say "he's evil".  Dany's a case in point.  I like the character and I'm looking forward to the ride when she finally swings in on Westeros, but if I lived in those days I'd probably slip some poison in her lemonade to prevent the war crimes sure to follow once those Dothraki cross the sea.

I've been thinking about the AA prophecy (which I never like to do because I think that way lies madness) and it being a false or slanted one.  Certainly a misinterpreted one.  It doesn't seem to fit perfectly on any level - the tempering of the sword I mean.  Water. The heart of a lion. The heart of a wife/lover. We'll likely find out more.  Shouldn't that have referred to all three children of either Rhaegar or Aerys/Rhaella if a person was meant?  For Aerys (assuming Tyrion is his, which I do), he killed Joanna (Tywin's "heart") to produce Tyrion and then Rhaella (to produce Dany, the end product) but who was the water house?  Of Rhaegar's children, two were from water houses, and the third if we presume Jon is RLJ, killing his "lover" but then where is the Lannister lion's heart.  I guess they can be mixed between them but it is hardly a good fit.

So I wondered if Jon as a possible Sword of the Morning is the third attempt over millennia to forge one that will balance the seasons instead of merely delay a threat of ice and/or fire.  That would be interesting to me because I've been assuming the Last Hero was a proto-Dayne but what if his mother was a Lannister?  That would make sense of all the Arthurian imagery that strangely echoes off Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion but in a twisted or only partial way.  And if there was a Sword of the Morning/Last Hero before that, maybe the mother was a water house? A Tully or a Reed - in fact I bet it was a Reed if this is true.  Moat Cailin, the Arm of Dorne.  Just a thought.

 

#306 LmL                

Posted Today, 03:38 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Yeah, I was trying to explain to someone on another thread (but gave up) that when Martin says he likes the "grey" he doesn't mean we're not supposed to look at an action like burning someone alive and saying "that's evil".  He simply makes the people that do these things humanly understandable so we don't say "he's evil".  Dany's a case in point.  I like the character and I'm looking forward to the ride when she finally swings in on Westeros, but if I lived in those days I'd probably slip some poison in her lemonade to prevent the war crimes sure to follow once those Dothraki cross the sea.

I've been thinking about the AA prophecy (which I never like to do because I think that way lies madness) and it being a false or slanted one.  Certainly a misinterpreted one.  It doesn't seem to fit perfectly on any level - the tempering of the sword I mean.  Water. The heart of a lion. The heart of a wife/lover. We'll likely find out more.  Shouldn't that have referred to all three children of either Rhaegar or Aerys/Rhaella if a person was meant?  For Aerys (assuming Tyrion is his, which I do), he killed Joanna (Tywin's "heart") to produce Tyrion and then Rhaella (to produce Dany, the end product) but who was the water house?  Of Rhaegar's children, two were from water houses, and the third if we presume Jon is RLJ, killing his "lover" but then where is the Lannister lion's heart.  I guess they can be mixed between them but it is hardly a good fit.

So I wondered if Jon as a possible Sword of the Morning is the third attempt over millennia to forge one that will balance the seasons instead of merely delay a threat of ice and/or fire.  That would be interesting to me because I've been assuming the Last Hero was a proto-Dayne but what if his mother was a Lannister?  That would make sense of all the Arthurian imagery that strangely echoes off Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion but in a twisted or only partial way.  And if there was a Sword of the Morning/Last Hero before that, maybe the mother was a water house? A Tully or a Reed - in fact I bet it was a Reed if this is true.  Moat Cailin, the Arm of Dorne.  Just a thought.

I Agree!

In fact I think he is trying to sucker the Machiavellian's out there to see how far they can rationalize horrific evil... it's kind of morality Rorschach test which actually has a right answer. Blood magic is evil, just as it seems to almost everyone around Dany and Mirri Maz Duur though out that whole bit. Abomination! Abomination! That's right, Varamyr's teacher. Martin uses things like the Red Wedding and Tywin's justifications of it and the blood magic thing and the Lightbringer myth - it's a test. I say, "NO, blood magic was not used to create a hero's sword." It was made to create a night bringer, a light-drinker, a sword of evil which drank Nissa Nissa's blood and soul. That's evil, guys!  And it all lines up with the proposed astronomy scenario, which is that when the sun killed the moon with a fiery comet, the darkness fell after a bright explosion. The forging of Lightbringer brought the darkness. 

it's possible the same dark sword was rehabilitated somehow, and eventually used as the dragonsteel of the Last Hero, but that would not change the fact that it first brought the darkness. 

        

#307 LmL                

Posted Today, 03:41 AM

Sly Wren, on 01 Oct 2015 - 4:05 PM, said:

Okay--I finally have enough time to read this properly--Yay!

First off: I agree. Seems like the seasons might once have been balanced. Natural order of rise and fall, life and death--all of that. For me, the real central mysteries of the novels are "what's up with the seasons?" and "how are the humans going to defeat the Long Night?" The cold is one thing, but the unnaturalness of no light--that's when people started smothering their children. That's when the Others first came "into that darkness."

But am not sure that the seasons ever get fully back on track. Restore night and day--yes. Seasons? Not sure. Am wondering if this is just the price of the tainted world brought on by--blood magic? or the BSE (in your scenario)? or something else? Asshai has gone too far--permanently shadowed. Am kind of assuming that's Lands of Always Winter, too--permanently shadowed. Like Dany says Jorah is "shadowed" after the tent (though oddly she doesn't see herself as shadowed if I remember). But the rest of Martinlandia--can it every regain that perfect balance? Or is that why the Children are dwindling? 

So, Jon with Dawn and all the rest that will go into regaining the dawn--that won't necessarily end the wacky seasons. Or "solve" the problem back to Edenic perfection. I mean, do people ever regain Eden in any story?

I'm not sure yet I buy the two moon scenario (though it might explain Dawn--black meteors and white meteors). Nor can I really see how the moons would control the seasons. But even if all you postulate turns out to be true--do you see a scenario where this can be fixed? Can undo the seasonal imbalance?

sniip

I actually answered this question over on Lady Barbrey's God-Emperor's thread in this comment and the one after it, I'm curious what you think. You both brought up the same general question, regarding how the situation can be resolved in some kind of a two moon scenario. 

        

#308 LmL                

Posted Today, 03:43 AM

Sly Wren, on 01 Oct 2015 - 3:37 PM, said:

I agree.

Seems like Davos has put his finger on it--either a hero has to do things no ordinary person would do (morally). Or AA's brand of heroism isn't heroism.

I tend towards the latter in Martin's books. People compromise their values, make mistakes, hurt others and hate themselves for it--but flat out sacrificial murder: that's a whole other ball of wax. Am thinking Davos may have compromised all he can. Those sacrifices via Mel are pushing him past him limit at some point. And it will be a hard day when Davos has to come to terms with either turning away from Stannis or going along with more abominations. I'm thinking it will be the former.

Davos may seem like the everyman, but he's got more heroism in him than Stannis.

I agree totally, I should have multi quoted you here in my response to Lady Barbrey above. Glad we are all on the same page. Blood magic is not the stuff of heroes, heroes (like Davos) don't stab their wives in the heart, no matter how much a magical talisman is needed. That was the whole lesson with the Edric Storm thing, imo.

"What is one boy's life against a kingdom?" 

"Everything."

 

#309 Lady Barbrey

Posted Today, 05:20 AM

Well said, LmL!  And everybody else!

I've been thinking about red stallions and why there was one at the birth of Dany's dragons and at the birth of Jon.  Dany had that poor red horse - representing the stallion that mounts the world (dragon) and Drogo's soul - sacrificed.  She birthed dragons with a bit of blood magic, a lot of fire and a screaming maegi.

But what did Ned do?  Here's where this gets kind of interesting.  Remember he says a few times he regrets promises broken?  

I think he gave away Jon's birthright.  I really do.  The red horse represented a dragon.  Dawn represented the Sword of the Morning.  Jon was meant to be both.  But Ned had had enough.  He brought Lyanna home, he raised the boy as his own in secrecy - but that was enough.  Yes, Jon might have been in danger, but the two things that Jon was mean to have, the stallion and the sword, he rejected.  No Dayne.  No Targaryan.  Just Stark.  And he agrees to send Jon to the Night's Watch to keep him that way without telling him, even though he's about to swear an oath that means he can never claim his heritage.

That's... cold.

I've been looking at some Fisher King mythology.  Bran is the Fisher King, the wounded king of the Grail Castle.  Parsifal (who later becomes Galahad or Gawaine) needs to heal him.  Now this is where it gets interesting because in some stories you need a worthy knight and the sword Excalibur to do it.  Also in some stories when you heal the Fisher King, you heal the wasteland around him.  How does that happen?  A lot of times it's just by asking the right question (and the questions they propose are preposterously stupid like Who are you? What ails you?).  

But in a few stories, the grail knight plunges the sword into the land. Heals the land; heals the fisher king.

Now, I know LmL will say this is the comet coming back to hit the second moon.  But I'm not sure.  If it is, it has to have something to do with Jon calling it back, or riding a dragon into space, and I don't know if George is going to go that far.  I'm wondering if has something to do with transference like Dany's dragon-baby switch.  Jon has to travel into the Heart of Winter, I think.  We don't know what that really is.  But I was thinking about "the heart of a lion" and as I said in another post, I thought this meant the Tywin's "heart" Joanna Lannister, that Aerys killed when he made her pregnant.  Aerys plunged his "sword" into a lion's "heart" and killed her when she birthed his baby... 

But sometimes a sword is just a sword - or a magical sword

Who would be winter's heart?  Whose heart is so large it could enter the egg of the world and replace the shadows with light?  Leaving her own heart "dark".

That's what I was thinking. 

        

#310 DarkSister1001                   

Posted Today, 11:41 AM

Sly Wren, on 01 Oct 2015 - 4:05 PM, said:

I'm not sure yet I buy the two moon scenario (though it might explain Dawn--black meteors and white meteors). Nor can I really see how the moons would control the seasons. But even if all you postulate turns out to be true--do you see a scenario where this can be fixed? Can undo the seasonal imbalance?

I can completely see this as possible. We've speculated about different factions of COTF over on Heresy. But the idea that the Singers in the cave might have their own plan--am now wondering if that's why the Singer's eyes were following Bran/Hodor. 

THis could make the dynamic very interesting. But it would fit with the novels--people have varying ideas on how to solve problems. Could see that applying to Long Night, or dwindling race, or any of the rest of it. Depending on how the Children define "the problem"--which they haven't yet. Again--makes me worry.

On the first--very good question. If they are all about the song of the earth, would be the first. But if that's all it is, why are they recruiting human greenseers that are more powerful? What do they need the power for? And could also be different Children react differently--can't see anything in the texts so far that says they are all the same. We've only met a few.

On the second bolded--hadn't thought of that. Had assumed it was about basic "scorched earth" dominance. But the Targs must have known something about all of this--the Long Night reached far. 

Still, as I've been discussing elsewhere, the Targs and their relation to the Night's Watch seems odd. "Good" Queen Alysane and Jahaerys want to unite the kingdoms. End civil wars. All well and good. They come to hope the Watch. Have them abandon the Nightfort--for a cheaper, smaller, newer castle paid for by the queen. Why? Why not built up the oldest castle (which has the Black Gate) and replenish the Watch? Why did the Watch dwindle so much after the arrival of Targs? Not trying to imply conspiracy, but it does seem odd--the state of the Watch seems to have plummeted during Targ rule. Is that because they saw themselves as potential saviors?

I can go with a lot of this--except Jon's dragon dreams. His dreams are more crypts and wights. Not dragons. . . 

I'd imagine, like you said, being so earthly, that they would not be happy about the destruction caused by the dragons.  Dragon fire isn't exactly accurate.  It can't hone in and kill an enemy and not the ally next to the enemy.  It would be very dangerous to just unleash them all willy-nilly on the Others.  (Not to mention dragonflame melting the Wall). 

I think all of Jon's dreams were not dragon dreams...except the one.  It's just so damn similar to Dany's.  I don't think he'd be able to have a dragon in it as that would give away too much about his heritage and spoil the mystery. 

The Targs may very well see themselves as saviors.  But truly are they?  Dragons are fire made flesh.  And fire is power.  Fire and Blood.  Nothing about that says savior to me.  UNLESS you can find the right mix of ancestry (fire and ice), the right people (salt of the earth, so to speak) and the right timing.  The power of dragons must be tamed to prevent total destruction.  Maybe the CotF don't think that's possible but BR does.  This particular dream came after Drogon killed the little girl giving credence to the concerns of the CotF and forcing BR to kick shit up a notch. 

LmL, on 02 Oct 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

I agree totally, I should have multi quoted you here in my response to Lady Barbrey above. Glad we are all on the same page. Blood magic is not the stuff of heroes, heroes (like Davos) don't stab their wives in the heart, no matter how much a magical talisman is needed. That was the whole lesson with the Edric Storm thing, imo.

"What is one boy's life against a kingdom?" 

"Everything."

 I agree.

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

Well said, LmL!  And everybody else!

I've been thinking about red stallions and why there was one at the birth of Dany's dragons and at the birth of Jon.  Dany had that poor red horse - representing the stallion that mounts the world (dragon) and Drogo's soul - sacrificed.  She birthed dragons with a bit of blood magic, a lot of fire and a screaming maegi.

But what did Ned do?  Here's where this gets kind of interesting.  Remember he says a few times he regrets promises broken?  

I think he gave away Jon's birthright.  I really do.  The red horse represented a dragon.  Dawn represented the Sword of the Morning.  Jon was meant to be both.  But Ned had had enough.  He brought Lyanna home, he raised the boy as his own in secrecy - but that was enough.  Yes, Jon might have been in danger, but the two things that Jon was mean to have, the stallion and the sword, he rejected.  No Dayne.  No Targaryan.  Just Stark.  And he agrees to send Jon to the Night's Watch to keep him that way without telling him, even though he's about to swear an oath that means he can never claim his heritage.

That's... cold.

I've been looking at some Fisher King mythology.  Bran is the Fisher King, the wounded king of the Grail Castle.  Parsifal (who later becomes Galahad or Gawaine) needs to heal him.  Now this is where it gets interesting because in some stories you need a worthy knight and the sword Excalibur to do it.  Also in some stories when you heal the Fisher King, you heal the wasteland around him.  How does that happen?  A lot of times it's just by asking the right question (and the questions they propose are preposterously stupid like Who are you? What ails you?).  

But in a few stories, the grail knight plunges the sword into the land. Heals the land; heals the fisher king.

Now, I know LmL will say this is the comet coming back to hit the second moon.  But I'm not sure.  If it is, it has to have something to do with Jon calling it back, or riding a dragon into space, and I don't know if George is going to go that far.  I'm wondering if has something to do with transference like Dany's dragon-baby switch.  Jon has to travel into the Heart of Winter, I think.  We don't know what that really is.  But I was thinking about "the heart of a lion" and as I said in another post, I thought this meant the Tywin's "heart" Joanna Lannister, that Aerys killed when he made her pregnant.  Aerys plunged his "sword" into a lion's "heart" and killed her when she birthed his baby... 

But sometimes a sword is just a sword - or a magical sword

Who would be winter's heart?  Whose heart is so large it could enter the egg of the world and replace the shadows with light?  Leaving her own heart "dark".

That's what I was thinking. 

Yes!  I never liked the assumption that the promise was to raise Jon.  It's his sister's son!  She would never have to repeatedly ask for his promise to take care of her son.  Ned would do so gladly.  I agree that the promise Lyanna asked and Ned broke was to tell Jon of his heritage.  I agree that by then Ned had had enough of wars and loss.  The Mad King and Robert's Rebellion cost Ned his father, brother and sister.  Then his little brother went off to the Wall.  Aside from Cat, a woman he barely knew, and his newborn son he didn't have any blood relatives next to him.  And telling Jon who he was would risk the last family he had. 

Ned is the only dude that we know of to have held both Dawn and Ice.  Would've LOVED a POV memory from him comparing them.  A girl can dream. 

I'm digging the Lion's heart stuff.  And I'm with ya, I think it's the Reeds.  (I'm in the Ashara-is-Jojen-and-Meera's-mom boat). 

There's a quote from the Great Ranging (too lazy to look up chapter at the moment, but I just read it.)  It says "Qhorin Halfhand came with the dawn".  The Halfhand was missing half his three fingers on his right hand.  Davos is missing part of his fingers on his left hand.  Not exact, but very similar.  Given how similarly honorable Davos and Jon are this makes me wonder if Davos will be the one to deliver Dawn to Jon. 

On another note...perhaps Darkstar is the most dangerous man bc he knows that Jon is the son of Rhaeger & Lyanna.

311-320

#311 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Yesterday, 07:34 PM

DarkSister1001, on 02 Oct 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'd imagine, like you said, being so earthly, that they would not be happy about the destruction caused by the dragons.  Dragon fire isn't exactly accurate.  It can't hone in and kill an enemy and not the ally next to the enemy.  It would be very dangerous to just unleash them all willy-nilly on the Others.  (Not to mention dragonflame melting the Wall). 

I think all of Jon's dreams were not dragon dreams...except the one.  It's just so damn similar to Dany's.  I don't think he'd be able to have a dragon in it as that would give away too much about his heritage and spoil the mystery. 

The Targs may very well see themselves as saviors.  But truly are they?  Dragons are fire made flesh.  And fire is power.  Fire and Blood.  Nothing about that says savior to me.  UNLESS you can find the right mix of ancestry (fire and ice), the right people (salt of the earth, so to speak) and the right timing.  The power of dragons must be tamed to prevent total destruction.  Maybe the CotF don't think that's possible but BR does.  This particular dream came after Drogon killed the little girl giving credence to the concerns of the CotF and forcing BR to kick shit up a notch. 

  I agree!!

Yes!  I never liked the assumption that the promise was to raise Jon.  It's his sister's son!  She would never have to repeatedly ask for his promise to take care of her son.  Ned would do so gladly.  I agree that the promise Lyanna asked and Ned broke was to tell Jon of his heritage.  I agree that by then Ned had had enough of wars and loss.  The Mad King and Robert's Rebellion cost Ned his father, brother and sister.  Then his little brother went off to the Wall.  Aside from Cat, a woman he barely knew, and his newborn son he didn't have any blood relatives next to him.  And telling Jon who he was would risk the last family he had. 

Ned is the only dude that we know of to have held both Dawn and Ice.  Would've LOVED a POV memory from him comparing them.  A girl can dream. 

I'm digging the Lion's heart stuff.  And I'm with ya, I think it's the Reeds.  (I'm in the Ashara-is-Jojen-and-Meera's-mom boat). 

There's a quote from the Great Ranging (too lazy to look up chapter at the moment, but I just read it.)  It says "Qhorin Halfhand came with the dawn".  The Halfhand was missing half his three fingers on his right hand.  Davos is missing part of his fingers on his left hand.  Not exact, but very similar.  Given how similarly honorable Davos and Jon are this makes me wonder if Davos will be the one to deliver Dawn to Jon. 

On another note...perhaps Darkstar is the most dangerous man bc he knows that Jon is the son of Rhaeger & Lyanna. 

I've never read the Ashara as J&M mom theory so will have to take a look.

I really like your half-hand comparisons.  There's another one.  Greatjon Umber.  Robb's wolf snaps of his fingers, and afterwards the Greatjon swears loyalty, and proves it too.

Is it a coincidence that Qhorin, Umber and Davos - who've proved the most loyal and honorable of men to their oaths and their lieges (the NW, Robb and Stannis) all have missing fingers?  I don't think so. I'm really starting to see this as some kind of prophecy (not any we've seen, or only bits of them) working itself out along a pattern but not quite getting it right.   Guy Gavriel Kay did this with his Fionavar Tapestry series but in a much more obvious way.  I go back to the Darkstar poem.  The mirror shatters into fragments.  At some point there was an original story reflected in the mirror (or pool of water); "the mirror cracked from side to side, the curse has come upon me cried - the Lady of Shalott", and we are left with reflections of reflections, ripple upon ripple.  

I'm assuming there is an original pattern (very post-structural if there isn't one and I don't think George is going that far).  But there are likely at least three versions of it depending on which element you serve.  One true, and at least two false.

So in that original story - when the Long Night was defeated before - I posit there was a man missing fingers who was the most loyal companion.

There was a Sword of the Morning and the sword Dawn

There was a red horse, perhaps a dragon, either man/woman or beast.

Probably many more, just have to look for repeating patterns

But what's weird about this is that for Jon, these things/people were taken out of the picture before they really got started.  

Ned took away the red horse and the sword away.

Qhorin died, saving Jon's life true (and a AA-Nissa Nissa reflection right there - a willing victim, sword goes in, saves the NW).  That was Longclaw the sword - if the pattern holds out Longclaw should be holding some of Qhorin's spirit.  Same with Weeping Widow and Oathkeeper - Ned might not have expected to die but he was a willing sacrifice to save his daughter.  So those swords should have something of Ned in them - and that's why in Jaime's dream the sword he's carrying burns fire-Valyrian steel- but the fire is blue - Ned).  

But getting back to Qhorin, he's not end game and everything suggests the man missing fingers should be end-game.  But perhaps that's the beauty of it.  Nobody seems to know about Jon and the story is playing out naturally?  Or will Davos or Greatjon join him in a Last Hero quest yet?  Or even Jaime with his whole hand missing?  That's the other part about missing fingers.  In Davos's and Umber's cases, they were a punishment, but were transformed into symbols of loyalty and honour.  That's been Jaime's path ever since he lost his hand, and then went back to save Brienne.

An original Hand of the King?  A man missing a hand.  Not inconsistent.  The most powerful seer in the world, Bloodraven, is missing an eye.  Be on the lookout for missing body parts, I think.  Jaime has so much Lancelot imagery (King Arthur's "hand") that this makes a lot of sense to me.  Davos, Umber Qhorin are echoes of his story each playing out in real terms, and perhaps replacements, but for right now, I think Jaime/Brienne will be Jon's Hand in the end.  Or not.

        

#312 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 11:56 PM

wolfmaid7, on 01 Oct 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

I agree and i always am impressed by GRRMs play on perspective.As readers most of us seem to look at the agents of fire as some means of salvation.Like the characters who pray for an endless summer we ignore the crap that has been done before our eyes.How many people has Mel burnt simply because they don't want to accept Rhollor.Her choice to the free folk,burn the symbol of your gods and we'll give you santuary or,or...go back where you came from......Hard luck.

And AA impales an element,kills a magnificient creature and his wife so he can create a bad ass sword....If he's willing to do that start lining up your babies people hear comes AA.Again we don't know why he did this at the time was there a need to 'save the world' or was there a need to be a man of reknown?

This is one of the reasons I liked the books--the psychological complexity of the presentation of characters. And the fact that because we are in the characters' heads we get drawn into the same mistakes. Like you said--we want the easy solution--no matter how much Martin tells us that's not how his world works. There's no such thing as a "pure" hero--not even Ned.

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Yeah, I was trying to explain to someone on another thread (but gave up) that when Martin says he likes the "grey" he doesn't mean we're not supposed to look at an action like burning someone alive and saying "that's evil".  He simply makes the people that do these things humanly understandable so we don't say "he's evil".  Dany's a case in point.  I like the character and I'm looking forward to the ride when she finally swings in on Westeros, but if I lived in those days I'd probably slip some poison in her lemonade to prevent the war crimes sure to follow once those Dothraki cross the sea.

I agree! Especially re: Dany. I feel for her. I understand why she's done what she's done--and I want to stop her. She's that kind of grey. I want to send her home to the red door, now inhabited by Ser Willem's long lost younger brother who is just like him and will take care of her.

LmL, on 02 Oct 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

In fact I think he is trying to sucker the Machiavellian's out there to see how far they can rationalize horrific evil... it's kind of morality Rorschach test which actually has a right answer. 

HA!!! Martin's now Stanley Milgram--experimenting on a large, unsuspecting public.

So, does that mean he might get sued  for mental trauma when the last book comes out?

LmL, on 02 Oct 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

I agree totally, I should have multi quoted you here in my response to Lady Barbrey above. Glad we are all on the same page. Blood magic is not the stuff of heroes, heroes (like Davos) don't stab their wives in the heart, no matter how much a magical talisman is needed. That was the whole lesson with the Edric Storm thing, imo.

"What is one boy's life against a kingdom?" 

"Everything."

Amen.

And--Davos needs to live. Please. 

DarkSister1001, on 02 Oct 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'd imagine, like you said, being so earthly, that they would not be happy about the destruction caused by the dragons.  Dragon fire isn't exactly accurate.  It can't hone in and kill an enemy and not the ally next to the enemy.  It would be very dangerous to just unleash them all willy-nilly on the Others.  (Not to mention dragonflame melting the Wall). 

I think all of Jon's dreams were not dragon dreams...except the one.  It's just so damn similar to Dany's.  I don't think he'd be able to have a dragon in it as that would give away too much about his heritage and spoil the mystery. 

The Targs may very well see themselves as saviors.  But truly are they?  Dragons are fire made flesh.  And fire is power.  Fire and Blood.  Nothing about that says savior to me.  UNLESS you can find the right mix of ancestry (fire and ice), the right people (salt of the earth, so to speak) and the right timing.  The power of dragons must be tamed to prevent total destruction.  Maybe the CotF don't think that's possible but BR does.  This particular dream came after Drogon killed the little girl giving credence to the concerns of the CotF and forcing BR to kick shit up a notch. 

1. Yes--attacking the Others with dragons. Really don't think that will work. Especially if something else is producing/controlling the Others. Really can't see how it would make anything "better". . . 

2. Fair enough re: dragon dream--I just struggle to buy it. I don't see it as dragon-oriented, though I know others do. Partly because everything else about him is North and Stark and wolf and sibling and Wall oriented. 

3. Agree on the Targs--fire and blood is the battle cry of the conqueror, not the savior. The Targs to try to be saviors at times. To cast themselves as unifiers. But I'm suspicious of what Jaehearys and Alysanne were up to with closing the Nightfort. Dany does see herself as a savior--will have to see how that goes.

But the part about the "right mix"--I'm still torn on this. My instincts all learn "nurture," so I'm prejudiced against Martin's "there are people with magic blood" universe. Plus, really, really, really think this will be a group effort--the Wall has to be held by the Watchers. Not one savior. So--"right mix" includes a collective.

 

#313 Sly Wren                    

Posted Today, 12:24 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

So I wondered if Jon as a possible Sword of the Morning is the third attempt over millennia to forge one that will balance the seasons instead of merely delay a threat of ice and/or fire.  That would be interesting to me because I've been assuming the Last Hero was a proto-Dayne but what if his mother was a Lannister?  That would make sense of all the Arthurian imagery that strangely echoes off Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion but in a twisted or only partial way.  And if there was a Sword of the Morning/Last Hero before that, maybe the mother was a water house? A Tully or a Reed - in fact I bet it was a Reed if this is true.  Moat Cailin, the Arm of Dorne.  Just a thought.

I'm liking the idea that there have been multiple "attempts." I'm not fully sold on the idea that Rhaegar took Lyanna for the prophecy--I know it's an option. But--there are reservations.

That said--whether the attempt was "intended" as a balance or not, the idea that Jon (with a lot of help from his pack) could restore the balance is tempting. I'm not sold--need to go over and read LmL's idea.

The idea of the Lannisters--because of the lion, yes? I'm also wondering if it's a nod at the power-hungry nature of Lannisters. They aren't connected with nature via their sigil as the Starks are--all the lions are gone. In Jaime's dream, Brienne asks if there's a lion or bear or anything down there--no, says Jaime, only doom.

In other words--no lion under the rock. No connection to natural magics. Only doom. Only power. A fallen state. Maybe.

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

I've been thinking about red stallions and why there was one at the birth of Dany's dragons and at the birth of Jon.  Dany had that poor red horse - representing the stallion that mounts the world (dragon) and Drogo's soul - sacrificed.  She birthed dragons with a bit of blood magic, a lot of fire and a screaming maegi.

But what did Ned do?  Here's where this gets kind of interesting.  Remember he says a few times he regrets promises broken?

I think he gave away Jon's birthright.  I really do.  The red horse represented a dragon.  Dawn represented the Sword of the Morning.  Jon was meant to be both.  But Ned had had enough.  He brought Lyanna home, he raised the boy as his own in secrecy - but that was enough.  Yes, Jon might have been in danger, but the two things that Jon was mean to have, the stallion and the sword, he rejected.  No Dayne.  No Targaryan.  Just Stark.  And he agrees to send Jon to the Night's Watch to keep him that way without telling him, even though he's about to swear an oath that means he can never claim his heritage.

That's... cold.

1. First up--do you mean Dustin's red stallion represented a dragon Jon should have had? Not sure I'm following you on that. . . 

2. But for the rest: Can Ned deny Jon a sword that isn't passed by birthright but by worthiness? Not sure taking the sword back to Starfall is rejecting the birthright.

Not telling Jon about his parents--that's more of a rejection. The bloodline (either via Rhaegar or Arthur) gives Jon an opening to the Sword of the Morning. Letting Jon go to the Watch--am wondering if that's "cold" or just "Stark." Ned thinking like Ned--no other place for him in the North. Letting him go to the Wall without the truth--kinda cold.

But I've also thought that Ned might not be able to face that conversation--telling Jon that he was part of the force that killed Rhaegar (if R=daddy). Telling Jon that he and Howland killed Arthur (if A=daddy)--Ned loves Jon. Really really. And, for all of Ned's goodness, he's not a paragon. Can imagine his not wanting to tell Jon out of fear of reaction, fear of the pain. 

Is it "right?" No. And the result might be cold. But not sure the intent is.

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

I've been looking at some Fisher King mythology.  Bran is the Fisher King, the wounded king of the Grail Castle.  Parsifal (who later becomes Galahad or Gawaine) needs to heal him.  Now this is where it gets interesting because in some stories you need a worthy knight and the sword Excalibur to do it.  Also in some stories when you heal the Fisher King, you heal the wasteland around him.  How does that happen?  A lot of times it's just by asking the right question (and the questions they propose are preposterously stupid like Who are you? What ails you?).  

But in a few stories, the grail knight plunges the sword into the land. Heals the land; heals the fisher king.

Now, I know LmL will say this is the comet coming back to hit the second moon.  But I'm not sure.  If it is, it has to have something to do with Jon calling it back, or riding a dragon into space, and I don't know if George is going to go that far.  I'm wondering if has something to do with transference like Dany's dragon-baby switch.  Jon has to travel into the Heart of Winter, I think.  We don't know what that really is.  But I was thinking about "the heart of a lion" and as I said in another post, I thought this meant the Tywin's "heart" Joanna Lannister, that Aerys killed when he made her pregnant.  Aerys plunged his "sword" into a lion's "heart" and killed her when she birthed his baby... 

But sometimes a sword is just a sword - or a magical sword

Who would be winter's heart?  Whose heart is so large it could enter the egg of the world and replace the shadows with light?  Leaving her own heart "dark".

That's what I was thinking. 

1. Agree on the Fisher King--have been thinking about it since I read it on your Night's Queen thread. And, with Bran plugged into a tree, he's part of the land. Heal Bran, heal the land--maybe. And depends on your definition of "heal."

2. But the question--I've been fretting for a while re: Bran's being in that cave. His place is with his pack, not the past. Not a tree. Am wondering what happens if/when he's pushed past doing what is wise magically. If he then sees/hears his siblings. Jon or Sansa (arguably the closest to his potential parent figures in their appearances and age). Could a question from them call Bran "back?" Call the land back from the brink of Always Winter? Might be too trite--but Martin has spent a LOT of time building up the pack connections and longings of the Starks and their wolves--maybe, just maybe they could ask the question. . . 

3. The "she"--are you cryptically referencing Dany? Or Mel? I'm a bit thick at the moment. . . Feel free to just hit me over the head with your point.

DarkSister1001, on 02 Oct 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Yes!  I never liked the assumption that the promise was to raise Jon.  It's his sister's son!  She would never have to repeatedly ask for his promise to take care of her son.  Ned would do so gladly.  I agree that the promise Lyanna asked and Ned broke was to tell Jon of his heritage.  I agree that by then Ned had had enough of wars and loss.  The Mad King and Robert's Rebellion cost Ned his father, brother and sister.  Then his little brother went off to the Wall.  Aside from Cat, a woman he barely knew, and his newborn son he didn't have any blood relatives next to him.  And telling Jon who he was would risk the last family he had. 

Ned is the only dude that we know of to have held both Dawn and Ice.  Would've LOVED a POV memory from him comparing them.  A girl can dream. 

I agree--at that point, Ned would easily have taken Jon. We see how much he loves that kid. One way or another, Arthur or Rhaegar--telling Jon that he helped kill Jon's father--I'm not sure anyone wants to tell that to someone they love. It may be a broken promise, but, oy! I can at least understand why.

Amen re: the POV on holding Dawn. 

        

#314 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Today, 12:47 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Yeah, I was trying to explain to someone on another thread (but gave up) that when Martin says he likes the "grey" he doesn't mean we're not supposed to look at an action like burning someone alive and saying "that's evil".  He simply makes the people that do these things humanly understandable so we don't say "he's evil".  Dany's a case in point.  I like the character and I'm looking forward to the ride when she finally swings in on Westeros, but if I lived in those days I'd probably slip some poison in her lemonade to prevent the war crimes sure to follow once those Dothraki cross the sea.

I've been thinking about the AA prophecy (which I never like to do because I think that way lies madness) and it being a false or slanted one.  Certainly a misinterpreted one.  It doesn't seem to fit perfectly on any level - the tempering of the sword I mean.  Water. The heart of a lion. The heart of a wife/lover. We'll likely find out more.  Shouldn't that have referred to all three children of either Rhaegar or Aerys/Rhaella if a person was meant?  For Aerys (assuming Tyrion is his, which I do), he killed Joanna (Tywin's "heart") to produce Tyrion and then Rhaella (to produce Dany, the end product) but who was the water house?  Of Rhaegar's children, two were from water houses, and the third if we presume Jon is RLJ, killing his "lover" but then where is the Lannister lion's heart.  I guess they can be mixed between them but it is hardly a good fit.

So I wondered if Jon as a possible Sword of the Morning is the third attempt over millennia to forge one that will balance the seasons instead of merely delay a threat of ice and/or fire.  That would be interesting to me because I've been assuming the Last Hero was a proto-Dayne but what if his mother was a Lannister?  That would make sense of all the Arthurian imagery that strangely echoes off Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion but in a twisted or only partial way.  And if there was a Sword of the Morning/Last Hero before that, maybe the mother was a water house? A Tully or a Reed - in fact I bet it was a Reed if this is true.  Moat Cailin, the Arm of Dorne.  Just a thought.

Hahaha people forget Khal Drogo was a beast a conquorer who took slaves and had he come to Westeros there would be no diplomacy. Basically "people dead now."

On the second that's why i never try to force symbolism,just see it for what it is.In order to attain greatness this man was willing to pierce that which was natural that which is pure all so he could have a magic sword.I think what is needing to balance the seasons and what no one with the ability has shown is self sacrifice.The analogy depends on what you believe and if its neccessary.I think there's a reason that so many people and things fit because at the end of it all different people will see different heroes depending on which side you fall upon.Lightbringer could easily be seenas  person,an actuall sword and my favorite the Wall itself.

AA could be anyone depending again on which side followers are on.What interests me is why does Mel believe it was Stannis in the first place? What was her criteria for choosing him?

LmL, on 02 Oct 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

I agree!!

In fact I think he is trying to sucker the Machiavellian's out there to see how far they can rationalize horrific evil... it's kind of morality Rorschach test which actually has a right answer. Blood magic is evil, just as it seems to almost everyone around Dany and Mirri Maz Duur though out that whole bit. Abomination! Abomination! That's right, Varamyr's teacher. Martin uses things like the Red Wedding and Tywin's justifications of it and the blood magic thing and the Lightbringer myth - it's a test. I say, "NO, blood magic was not used to create a hero's sword." It was made to create a night bringer, a light-drinker, a sword of evil which drank Nissa Nissa's blood and soul. That's evil, guys!  And it all lines up with the proposed astronomy scenario, which is that when the sun killed the moon with a fiery comet, the darkness fell after a bright explosion. The forging of Lightbringer brought the darkness. 

it's possible the same dark sword was rehabilitated somehow, and eventually used as the dragonsteel of the Last Hero, but that would not change the fact that it first brought the darkness. 

HUH????

Sly Wren, on 02 Oct 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

This is one of the reasons I liked the books--the psychological complexity of the presentation of characters. And the fact that because we are in the characters' heads we get drawn into the same mistakes. Like you said--we want the easy solution--no matter how much Martin tells us that's not how his world works. There's no such thing as a "pure" hero--not even Ned.

I agree!!

Especially re: Dany. I feel for her. I understand why she's done what she's done--and I want to stop her. She's that kind of grey. I want to send her home to the red door, now inhabited by Ser Willem's long lost younger brother who is just like him and will take care of her.

HA!!! Martin's now Stanley Milgram--experimenting on a large, unsuspecting public.

So, does that mean he might get sued  for mental trauma when the last book comes out? 

Amen.

And--Davos needs to live. Please. 

1. Yes--attacking the Others with dragons. Really don't think that will work. Especially if something else is producing/controlling the Others. Really can't see how it would make anything "better". . . 

2. Fair enough re: dragon dream--I just struggle to buy it. I don't see it as dragon-oriented, though I know others do. Partly because everything else about him is North and Stark and wolf and sibling and Wall oriented. 

3. Agree on the Targs--fire and blood is the battle cry of the conqueror, not the savior. The Targs to try to be saviors at times. To cast themselves as unifiers. But I'm suspicious of what Jaehearys and Alysanne were up to with closing the Nightfort. Dany does see herself as a savior--will have to see how that goes.

But the part about the "right mix"--I'm still torn on this. My instincts all learn "nurture," so I'm prejudiced against Martin's "there are people with magic blood" universe. Plus, really, really, really think this will be a group effort--the Wall has to be held by the Watchers. Not one savior. So--"right mix" includes a collective.

There's nothing i don't like here.

        

#315 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 07:09 AM

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1. First up--do you mean Dustin's red stallion represented a dragon Jon should have had? Not sure I'm following you on that. . . 

2. But for the rest: Can Ned deny Jon a sword that isn't passed by birthright but by worthiness? Not sure taking the sword back to Starfall is rejecting the birthright.

Not telling Jon about his parents--that's more of a rejection. The bloodline (either via Rhaegar or Arthur) gives Jon an opening to the Sword of the Morning. Letting Jon go to the Watch--am wondering if that's "cold" or just "Stark." Ned thinking like Ned--no other place for him in the North. Letting him go to the Wall without the truth--kinda cold.

But I've also thought that Ned might not be able to face that conversation--telling Jon that he was part of the force that killed Rhaegar (if R=daddy). Telling Jon that he and Howland killed Arthur (if A=daddy)--Ned loves Jon. Really really. And, for all of Ned's goodness, he's not a paragon. Can imagine his not wanting to tell Jon out of fear of reaction, fear of the pain. 

Is it "right?" No. And the result might be cold. But not sure the intent is.

I believe it was a rejection of Dayne and Targaryan, but I revise my opinion all the time.  No question Ned loves Jon, but even Jon questions, when he meets the rapists and murderers that are to become his new brothers, his father's motives.  The danger to Jon is past; why would Ned not have tried harder to prevent Jon joining?  I think he doesn't want the boy to become part of world events - look at the disaster that happened to Lyanna.  

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1. Agree on the Fisher King--have been thinking about it since I read it on your Night's Queen thread. And, with Bran plugged into a tree, he's part of the land. Heal Bran, heal the land--maybe. And depends on your definition of "heal."

From the Fisher Queens (who live in an island palace that moves around a lake) information in the World Book, my focus was turned to castles or holdfasts surrounded by water (not sea islands though could be at a nexus river to ocean). Look at this list: the God's Eye, the Hightower, Starfall, Riverrun, Graywater Watch, the Quiet Isle.  Hightower, Starfall and the Quiet Isle are surrounded by water at the mouths of rivers where they join the sea.  Greywater Watch is surrounded by marsh and it moves.  The God's Eye is in the centre of a lake.  Riverrun is surrounded by river water when they lower that third side.  

The Fisher Queen palace in the world book was a "wise" place-people went there for wisdom and counsel, analogous to the Isle of Avalon in real world myth, and Avalon was ruled by the Ladies of the Lake, also heavily connected to the tale of the Fisher King.  The World Book even says that it is supposed some of the First Men came from this Fisher Queen area of Essos. So by where they've chosen to live I think we can identify our Fisher Kings/Queens/Ladies of the Lake descendants: the Green Men, Hightowers, Daynes, Reeds, Tully's, and the Brothers of the Quiet Isle.  (I think there might be one more though I haven't found it yet - 7 seems a magic number.  It's possible Winterfell on its hotsprings, surrounded by fresh water in its walls, might be a seventh, but that's a stretch so I'm not including for now).  

I've already connected Hightowers and Daynes as probably of one line in the far off days and possibly the first arrivals, connected to the amethyst empress.  LmL was inquiring about Garth the Green, and I think he's here too - of course his descendants would be at least part of the Green Men! .  The Reeds are the most connected of all to the Children, maybe earlier than any of them. Riverrun - Tully descendants - are undergoing barrenness of one kind or another - they must be of the same line as the Reeds and the rest of them - because a son of the line - crippled in leg and genitals - has inherited the Fisher King mantle.  

And aren't these places/people aside from Riverrun and the Quiet Isle the most mysterious places on Westeros?  No one can even find Graywater Watch.  Leyton and his daughter have been up in Hightower tower for ten years and no one has seen them.  We've all been wondering about Starfall and the Daynes forever.  No one aside from Howland Reed has ever been known to visit God's Eye and make it out alive as far as I know.  He hasn't shown up yet either, and his son is wasting away.   Riverrun is not mysterious except that it seems to be an exemplar of barrenness or wasting like in the Fisher King myth - this line of former kings is dying off: Hoster a slow wasting death like a Fisher King himself; Catelyn a wraith more than a human; Robb's dead and his wife's mother prevented pregnancy in his wife; Blackfish won't sire sons; Lysa has an abortion, and her second child Robin seems to be wasting away from a mysterious illness; Bran, identified as a Fisher King figure in far more ways than one, is crippled sexually and physically. Some are alive but symbolically there is something up with the symbols of barrenness and illness, voluntarily or otherwise, of the Tullys, and the Riverlands themselves are painted as a wasteland.

So what's up with the Quiet Isle?  It's inhabited by Brothers of the Faith, the seven. No connection here to Green Men and Old Gods and Fisher Queens, you would think; or Ladies of the Lake, Fisher Kings or Avalon from real world myth for that matter either.

 

Except it is connected. First of all, only the "faithful" can get there by land - you have to wind your way at hightide through a maze of treacherous tidal flats, going east,then south then west - you must go east to go west, south to go north, etc., to touch the truth.  This is like getting to Avalon ruled by the Ladies of the Lake - it's a secret, sacred place and only those in the know can find it.  Secondly, the first thing you pass through when you get there is a grove of apples.  Avalon - the "apple" isle.

Here is a description of Avalon from Wikipedia: The island of apples gets its name from the fact that it produces all things of itself; the fields there have no need of the ploughs of the farmers and all cultivation is lacking except what nature provides. Of its own accord it produces grain and grapes, and apple trees grow in its woods from the close-clipped grass. The ground of its own accord produces everything instead of merely grass, and people live there a hundred years or more. There nine sisters rule by a pleasing set of laws those who come to them from our country.[9]

If you read the chapter in Feast (Brienne), the island is described throughout the chapter in exactly this way: self-sufficient, nature provides everything, tart grapes, grain, cider.  Instead of nine sisters (who might rule on one of the  different Avalons I've mentioned) it is "ruled" by seven brothers (proctors).

Before you even see him, you are told that the Elder Brother has "healing hands", almost miraculously so. I've connected all this to Arthurian imagery so it shouldn't come as any surprise that the person known to have "healing hands" in that saga - in fact, hands were associated with him time and again - was Lancelot, the (almost) perfect knight, so good and blessed by God that God gives him this miraculous power of healing. And Lancelot  (Lancelot du Lac, of the Lake, raised by the Lady of the Lake) in the series is the pattern on which Sir Arthur Dayne was based (not Arthur).  When Jaime read his exploits from the White Book, recounted his deeds, his goodness in looking after the poor people, his chivalry - if you've ever read the Morte D'Arthur or any of the other books - it's like he is shouting Lancelot, the finest knight in the world.  

What did Lancelot do, after saving Guinevere, after Camelot failed, Arthur was dead, the final battle was over?  He joined a monastery.  Oh and at one point he lives in a cave in a hill as a hermit.  That's what Elder Brother does after he retires from knighthood too: he joins a monastery and  lives in a cave called the Hermit's Cave.

Brienne immediately knows when she sees Elder Brother that he had once been a knight.  Shoulders, chest, bearing.  He's 44 years old, tonsured hair (interestingly, the bald part is stubbly so either he's sloppy or he's growing it in to prepare to join the world again), a square head and a red-veined nose.  (Well yes, we do all age.).  He does tell her about his past (and Brienne wonders why - like it's too much info on first meeting), and I would suggest it's a mixture of truth and lies, as is the story he tells her about the Hound, the gravedigger. I won't pick it apart now but there are certain parts of it that sound like Barristan's thoughts that I think might be true.

Here's a telling detail.  After the Hound dies, Elder Brother says, he buried him and erected a cairn over him with his helmet on it. He can show the cairn to Brienne, he says, as if this will bear out the truth of it, that the hound is dead.  But we know, if we've been reading closely, that the Hound is not dead. Or rather, the Hound is dead, but Brother Sandor is very much alive.  I think this suggests that Arthur Dayne might be dead (and has a cairn at the Tower of Joy to "prove it"), but Elder Brother Arthur is just as alive as Brother Sandor.

Moreover, a number of the men supposed to be dead at the Tower of Joy might still be alive.  Lord Dustin, for one - it shouldn't escape notice that the other "proof" aside from the cairn, that Sandor was there, in order to prove he was dead, is that they have his horse. Ned could have taken Dustin's horse back to Lady Barbrey for the same reason.  Elder Brother says they are waiting for the "seventh ruby".  Is this a stone they're waiting for?  There were surely more than seven, and people were said to be snatching them from the water already when Rhaegar fell.  I got the impression he was having a little fun with Sir Hyles, and he's rather waiting for a seventh person sworn in some way to protect something of ruby-red Rhaegar's.    

Isn't it interesting that Elder Brother has now heard the full story of Jaime's reformation?  Brienne, our sapphire, confessed everything (and he heard everything that Sandor had to say too).  Arthur was a mentor to Jaime; his ears must have perked up.  I am very curious to see what a meeting between Jaime and Arthur might entail.  The only things, however, that make me wonder if he might rejoin the world in some capacity, is his mention of waiting for a "seventh", and that the bald part of his tonsure is growing in.  So nothing might come of it, but with Darkstar on the rise and on the run, maybe it will. Kingsguard serve for life, after all. It's too good, I think, not to deploy!

I haven't seen this theory posted - did a quick search but never seem to find what I'm searching for on here.  I saw a good one positing Elder Brother as a Darry but this is far closer.  Some seem to attach to the rubies or to Sandor as the gravedigger - like these more glaring hints outshone the Lancelot/Dayne imagery. and clues.  It is possible that Arthur was at the Trident glamoured to look like Rhaegar with the rubies, but from all accounts there was a dead body, and I think the cairn detail and even the horse are more potent clues anyway that Dayne was at the Tower of Joy. 

Sly Wren, you started me on this line of thought when you asked how would the Daynes, our Ladies of the Lake, see what was happening in the world.  I answered that they would likely use a pool of water and scry like in days of old.  Water got me onto the Fisher Queens in the WB, the description of their floating island palace reminded me of Riverrun, and then Greywater Watch, the God's Eye, Starfall, the Hightower.  Looked to find anything else, came upon the Quiet Isle, which I must have skimmed before.  

I am still considering Winterfell.  It is surrounded by water in the walls.  However, it's the glass gardens that are even more telling.  A few centuries ago, King Arthur's grave was said to have been found at Glastonbury (there's an actual ancient tombstone inscribed in Latin, and though there are varying accounts, it was said when the grave was opened they found a giant of a man inside, with his wife).  Glastonbury is surrounded by land now, but it was once an island called  the "Isle of Glass". You can see why glass gardens might ring a bell.  And even before that name, it was supposed to have been named  Avalon.  Isle of Glass, the original "last hero-king" Arthur's gravesite of saga. Gravesite.  Crypts.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Last Hero's bones are buried at Winterfell.  And if his sword isn't Dawn, his sword might be there as well.  But this does give some support to original Ice perhaps being Dawn.

I was talking about "Hands" in a previous post.  Missing fingers, missing hand,, Hand of the King.  Lancelot with his healing hands, King Arthur's right hand man, loyal to a fault except when it came to Guinevere.  Because I had noticed all the Lancelot imagery around Arthur Dayne before, I also have always suspected he might have loved Lyanna, and might be Jon's father.  I don't think so, but I'm still not sure.  But I think, if you read Elder Brother's story, there might be a bit of truth in the part where he says he loved a girl once but had nothing to offer her but his sword, his shield and his horse. The girl might have been Lyanna or Elia.  It reminded me of Jon's birth and the returned sword, the returned horse, but no shield was returned that we know of.  Ned was his shield.

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2. But the question--I've been fretting for a while re: Bran's being in that cave. His place is with his pack, not the past. Not a tree. Am wondering what happens if/when he's pushed past doing what is wise magically. If he then sees/hears his siblings. Jon or Sansa (arguably the closest to his potential parent figures in their appearances and age). Could a question from them call Bran "back?" Call the land back from the brink of Always Winter? Might be too trite--but Martin has spent a LOT of time building up the pack connections and longings of the Starks and their wolves--maybe, just maybe they could ask the question. . . 

I don't think there will be a question - the questions usually asked are too trite.  I think it will resemble a sword in the land metaphor. I'm with you though.  A mother myself!  I tear up just thinking about Bran in that tree, and I don't think Martin will let it happen to him.  Remember that if the seasons are righted, there won't be any reason for Bran to stay in it anyway.  He doesn't have to be a greenseer. He's the summer king!  And we've been told that the next book, and the next season on tv, will be about bringing everybody together again.  Also Martin is perfectly capable of thinking up a reason to get him out of there in the meantime.  None of this follows any myth exactly.  Most people don't believe Bran will walk again, but I do!  The Fisher King myth gives me hope!  50/50 anyway.

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3. The "she"--are you cryptically referencing Dany? Or Mel? I'm a bit thick at the moment. . . Feel free to just hit me over the head with your point.

No I meant Arya.  But I didn't want to say it out loud.  She's my favorite character.  But what did you think when the GoHH called her "dark heart"?  I revolted.  No matter how "dark side" Arya's turned, she has more vitality and "heart" than anyone in the entire book, and this transference was one way I could see her being called "dark heart". I do think Martin still intends for Jon and Arya to love each other, so one or the other might be Nissa Nissa.  Fits with LmL too: Dany as his fire moon, Arya as his ice moon (with a piece of stone/glass in her heart like Kay from the Snow Queen that needs removing).  I've also always wondered if the vengeful spirit of Rhaenys Targaryan isn't riding with her ever since she kissed Balerion the cat right between the eyes like the three-eyed crow pecked at Bran.  The dragon bones were hostile to her before but friendly to her afterwards!   The GoHH might have been seeing Rhaenys' dark vengeful heart!  But that's a piece of tinfoil I don't share with just anyone!  

Anyway, as soon as I realized Arthur was alive, and possibly in league with members of other "Fisher Queen" houses, I thought I would tell you guys, but unfortunately had to try to prove it to you so this got really long.  The Sword of the Morning could well be alive and can pass on the sword himself.

 

#316 LmL                

Posted Yesterday, 12:30 PM

wolfmaid7, on 02 Oct 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

 
HUH????

Have you really NEVER read my basic theory? The sun killing the moon with a comet is kind of at the center of it, ABC-123. You sometimes say you don't buy my theory, so I figure you had at least read it. Or are you "not buying" a theory you've never actually read?

Yes, the Azor Ahai story is about (on one level) the sun (playing the role of AA) stabbing the moon (Nissa Nissa) with a fiery comet, which is of course analogous to a flaming sword. That's the theory anyway. First link in my signature if you want to see why I am talking about.

        

#317 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Yesterday, 01:08 PM

LmL, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Have you really NEVER read my basic theory? The sun killing the moon with a comet is kind of at the center of it, ABC-123. You sometimes say you don't buy my theory, so I figure you had at least read it. Or are you "not buying" a theory you've never actually read?

Yes, the Azor Ahai story is about (on one level) the sun (playing the role of AA) stabbing the moon (Nissa Nissa) with a fiery comet, which is of course analogous to a flaming sword. That's the deal. First link in my signature if you want to see why I am talking about.

I read it,i don't by a few things as i said before we probably have more in agreement than not....But the "huh??" was actually suppose to be sarcasm because your wording evoked a sexuall imagery for me that reminded me of "A thousand ways to die" episode it was pretty funny and sad at the same time . My wide eyed emoji didn't show up either.

I never quite bought your premise i thought i told you that before.I know what you are trying to say but if you are going to superimpose the myth on the characteristics of heavenly bodies then it needs to work.So the reason why the premise doesn't work for me is because of your notion that the Sun killed the Moon with a Comet.Sexuall undertones aside.

There's a reason why Comets are called "dirty snowballs" they are a collection of dust,ice,rocks etc. The solar winds actually have more affect on a Comet than the sun.The Sun only reflects the dust in the tail and the tail always point away from the sun though it could be in many different direction just away from the Sun  because as i said the solar winds have "the" effect on it.

Now what it sounds like to me in the Irri story is that the Moon went off its axis which can happen theorethically .i.e. if another body's gravitational pull on it is somehow altered .Example in our case the Earth gravitational pull on our moon.

So, where you lose me is  with the Comet being sent by the Sun,because that's not possible.Hence it doesn't fit for me you took

Moon going close to Sun (clearly what the text says wrong or right about if an actual second moon existed) and Moon goddess archetype getting stabbed and concluded that the connection was a Comet from the Sun destroying the second moon..

Where I think you went off with your premise:

 "Well, moons don’t really just wander off into the sun, and our solar warrior’s sword is a comet.  This is the second major part of my hypothesis: the second moon was destroyed by a fiery comet that appeared to be coming from the sun."

Those two are incorrect the first could happen not happenstance, ofcourse they don't "just wander" certain things have to occur  and the second doesn't happen ....at all.If you told me a Solar flare roasted the second moon when it wondered off its axis because of the force of the flare  i might buy it a bit.

        

#318 Julia H.                      

Posted Yesterday, 02:28 PM

I’ve been following this thread all these weeks, but it is hard to catch up with the discussion – the thread is fast and there is always so much to think about. There are some fantastic contributors and posts here! Congratulations to Sly Wren on starting it all! I cannot even begin to list all the wonderful ideas I’ve found here.

To add my two cents, on the recent “balance of the seasons” discussion: I completely agree with LmL that there must have been a balance once. The tentative suggestion in the World Book points in this direction, and, perhaps more importantly, the fact that they count the years suggests that, too. What is a year if not a complete period of time? Currently, the most regular natural period that Planetos has is a moon turn. Yet, they do not count just moon turns, they count years, and I guess each year has the same number of moon turns – they know when their name day is coming and so on. Yet, this regularity is totally artificial. They could just count moon turns, which is their natural “calendar”, so how did they get the idea of organizing the moon turns into years? What would have been the point if they had never had a corresponding natural period?

Sly Wren, on 02 Oct 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

The idea of the Lannisters--because of the lion, yes? I'm also wondering if it's a nod at the power-hungry nature of Lannisters. They aren't connected with nature via their sigil as the Starks are--all the lions are gone. In Jaime's dream, Brienne asks if there's a lion or bear or anything down there--no, says Jaime, only doom.

In other words--no lion under the rock. No connection to natural magics. Only doom. Only power. A fallen state. Maybe.

Just because I can’t resist: That dream scene is very complex. Jaime thinks that he is under the Rock, but he also realizes that he has arrived at a place he does not know. Jaime and Brienne are also walking in water. Now where do we hear of an underground place where there is water? (We also know that Jaime is sleeping on a weirwood stump when he has this dream.) The actual dialogue between Brienne and Jaime is this:

“A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

Jaime silently rules out bears and lions but not direwolves. It strongly suggests that there are direwolves in that place and that direwolves are doom.

LmL, on 02 Oct 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

I agree!

In fact I think he is trying to sucker the Machiavellian's out there to see how far they can rationalize horrific evil... it's kind of morality Rorschach test which actually has a right answer. Blood magic is evil, just as it seems to almost everyone around Dany and Mirri Maz Duur though out that whole bit. Abomination! Abomination! That's right, Varamyr's teacher. Martin uses things like the Red Wedding and Tywin's justifications of it and the blood magic thing and the Lightbringer myth - it's a test. I say, "NO, blood magic was not used to create a hero's sword." It was made to create a night bringer, a light-drinker, a sword of evil which drank Nissa Nissa's blood and soul. That's evil, guys!  And it all lines up with the proposed astronomy scenario, which is that when the sun killed the moon with a fiery comet, the darkness fell after a bright explosion. The forging of Lightbringer brought the darkness. 

it's possible the same dark sword was rehabilitated somehow, and eventually used as the dragonsteel of the Last Hero, but that would not change the fact that it first brought the darkness. 

Thank you for this! I wholeheartedly agree. (I could say a lot about this topic, but I don't want to derail this wonderful thread.) I'm just glad you said it.

Finally, I absolutely must say that this post by Lady Barbrey came as a revelation to me. Lady B., you even managed to shake my RLJ conviction! I could totally accept it now if Jon were Arthur's son... But I still think that the most important elements of this theory work in the RLJ framework as well. If Dany is a Targ and therefore comes from the corrupted line of the Amethyst Empress, while Jon is a Dayne and comes from a pure bloodline, therefore is pure, then neither of them seems to have much of a choice. If both are descendants of Valyria, however, yet, they can make different choices, then one of them can redeem the "shadowed" bloodline by freeing it from the shadow.

The Dayne blood can still play a part if the Starks and the Daynes are related and if Dawn is the original Ice, which Jon might win back for the Stark family through merit.

That way Jon could be a descendant of both the pure and the corrupted line – if the First Men fled from the BSE’s terror, then perhaps the Starks and the Daynes are two branches of the same original family (hence both are descendants of the AmEm). The Daynes preserved the original features and perhaps the original principles of “Camelot”, while the Starks became “icified” (is that a possible word?) up in the North, the same way as the Valyrians became the fire people among the Fourteen Flames. Anyway, if Jon is descended from both the pure and the shadowed GeoDawnians, he may be magically in the perfect position to really have a choice between evil and good, between blood magic and self-sacrifice. That could make him truly unique in the sense that no one else may have had this kind of choice between the two traditions: Jon could embrace the fire and blood magic (the temptation of corrupted power), and therefore his rejection of it may be a powerful act in itself - something that the "all pure" Daynes could not have done. 

I absolutely love the idea of Jon as the true Great Emperor of the Dawn - even if it is in a totally symbolic (or spiritual) sense, because I don't really think that we will see that legendary empire physically revive. I also suspect that achieving this status is likely to involve some great self-sacrifice - the opposite of what the BSE did.

        

#319 DarkSister1001                   

Posted Yesterday, 02:34 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 02 Oct 2015 - 6:34 PM, said:

I've never read the Ashara as J&M mom theory so will have to take a look.

I really like your half-hand comparisons.  There's another one.  Greatjon Umber.  Robb's wolf snaps of his fingers, and afterwards the Greatjon swears loyalty, and proves it too.

Is it a coincidence that Qhorin, Umber and Davos - who've proved the most loyal and honorable of men to their oaths and their lieges (the NW, Robb and Stannis) all have missing fingers?  I don't think so. I'm really starting to see this as some kind of prophecy (not any we've seen, or only bits of them) working itself out along a pattern but not quite getting it right.   Guy Gavriel Kay did this with his Fionavar Tapestry series but in a much more obvious way.  I go back to the Darkstar poem.  The mirror shatters into fragments.  At some point there was an original story reflected in the mirror (or pool of water); "the mirror cracked from side to side, the curse has come upon me cried - the Lady of Shalott", and we are left with reflections of reflections, ripple upon ripple.  

I'm assuming there is an original pattern (very post-structural if there isn't one and I don't think George is going that far).  But there are likely at least three versions of it depending on which element you serve.  One true, and at least two false.

So in that original story - when the Long Night was defeated before - I posit there was a man missing fingers who was the most loyal companion.

There was a Sword of the Morning and the sword Dawn

There was a red horse, perhaps a dragon, either man/woman or beast.

Probably many more, just have to look for repeating patterns

But what's weird about this is that for Jon, these things/people were taken out of the picture before they really got started.  

Ned took away the red horse and the sword away.

Qhorin died, saving Jon's life true (and a AA-Nissa Nissa reflection right there - a willing victim, sword goes in, saves the NW).  That was Longclaw the sword - if the pattern holds out Longclaw should be holding some of Qhorin's spirit.  Same with Weeping Widow and Oathkeeper - Ned might not have expected to die but he was a willing sacrifice to save his daughter.  So those swords should have something of Ned in them - and that's why in Jaime's dream the sword he's carrying burns fire-Valyrian steel- but the fire is blue - Ned).  

But getting back to Qhorin, he's not end game and everything suggests the man missing fingers should be end-game.  But perhaps that's the beauty of it.  Nobody seems to know about Jon and the story is playing out naturally?  Or will Davos or Greatjon join him in a Last Hero quest yet?  Or even Jaime with his whole hand missing?  That's the other part about missing fingers.  In Davos's and Umber's cases, they were a punishment, but were transformed into symbols of loyalty and honour.  That's been Jaime's path ever since he lost his hand, and then went back to save Brienne.

An original Hand of the King?  A man missing a hand.  Not inconsistent.  The most powerful seer in the world, Bloodraven, is missing an eye.  Be on the lookout for missing body parts, I think.  Jaime has so much Lancelot imagery (King Arthur's "hand") that this makes a lot of sense to me.  Davos, Umber Qhorin are echoes of his story each playing out in real terms, and perhaps replacements, but for right now, I think Jaime/Brienne will be Jon's Hand in the end.  Or not.

 Here's the one I read.  The 2 things that really seal this for me are 1) The story told by Meera was told to her by Howland...why would a man describe another woman to his children the way he does?  2)  Howland is Ned's staunchest ally and friend, relatively close neighbors but they haven't seen each other since they returned from war?  That's weird.  This wasn't part f the theory but it always seemed interesting to me that his name is HOWLand.  Curious name for someone so important to the Quiet Wolf. 

Of course!  How could I forget the Great Jon?!  I LOVE that scene. 

IIRC...Umber has 2 maimed fingers, Halfhand has 3 maimed fingers, Davos has 4 maimed fingers and Jaime's entire hand is gone (5 fingers).  NO WAY is this a coincidence.  Umber was Robb's right hand, as you said.  Halfhand was commander at the Shadow Tower which would make him very important to Mormont.  Davos is Stannis' Hand and Cersei tried to convince Jaime to be Hand (for Robert?  Joff?  Tommen?  I don't recall exactly).  Do we have anyone with 1 maimed finger?

Funny as it is, Jon has a maimed hand as well.  The one he burned saving Mormont from the wight's. 

I would guess that at least 1 of the LHs companions lost a digit, if not the LH himself.  They spent quit a long time in harsh, unforgiving cold.  Jeyne lost the tip of her nose in short amount of time.

Hmmm...black appendages = frost bite.  Also a symptom of being a wight. 

Sly Wren, on 02 Oct 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

This is one of the reasons I liked the books--the psychological complexity of the presentation of characters. And the fact that because we are in the characters' heads we get drawn into the same mistakes. Like you said--we want the easy solution--no matter how much Martin tells us that's not how his world works. There's no such thing as a "pure" hero--not even Ned.

I agree. Especially re: Dany. I feel for her. I understand why she's done what she's done--and I want to stop her. She's that kind of grey. I want to send her home to the red door, now inhabited by Ser Willem's long lost younger brother who is just like him and will take care of her.

HA!!! Martin's now Stanley Milgram--experimenting on a large, unsuspecting public.

So, does that mean he might get sued  for mental trauma when the last book comes out?

Amen.

And--Davos needs to live. Please. 

1. Yes--attacking the Others with dragons. Really don't think that will work. Especially if something else is producing/controlling the Others. Really can't see how it would make anything "better". . . 

2. Fair enough re: dragon dream--I just struggle to buy it. I don't see it as dragon-oriented, though I know others do. Partly because everything else about him is North and Stark and wolf and sibling and Wall oriented. 

3. Agree on the Targs--fire and blood is the battle cry of the conqueror, not the savior. The Targs to try to be saviors at times. To cast themselves as unifiers. But I'm suspicious of what Jaehearys and Alysanne were up to with closing the Nightfort. Dany does see herself as a savior--will have to see how that goes.

But the part about the "right mix"--I'm still torn on this. My instincts all learn "nurture," so I'm prejudiced against Martin's "there are people with magic blood" universe. Plus, really, really, really think this will be a group effort--the Wall has to be held by the Watchers. Not one savior. So--"right mix" includes a collective.

I hear what you're saying re a possible dragon dream. 

I agree that Good Queen and her Hubby may have been up to something.  You're right, it's doesn't make sense to build an entire new fortress instead of fixing the one that's there.  Maybe it's a nursery for their dragon eggs?  Or they were superstitious about the story of the Rat Cook?  Or wanted the Black Gate out of sight/out of mind?  What are your thoughts on their possible reasoning?

        

#320 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Yesterday, 05:35 PM

Julia H., on 03 Oct 2015 - 1:28 PM, said:

To add my two cents, on the recent “balance of the seasons” discussion: I completely agree with LmL that there must have been a balance once. The tentative suggestion in the World Book points in this direction, and, perhaps more importantly, the fact that they count the years suggests that, too. What is a year if not a complete period of time? Currently, the most regular natural period that Planetos has is a moon turn. Yet, they do not count just moon turns, they count years, and I guess each year has the same number of moon turns – they know when their name day is coming and so on. Yet, this regularity is totally artificial. They could just count moon turns, which is their natural “calendar”, so how did they get the idea of organizing the moon turns into years? What would have been the point if they had never had a corresponding natural period?

If there was the point being it is mute from a humanoid standpoint,all they have known since forever is how things have always been.They don't know any different and have been acclimated for how things are.But lets look at the World building aspect of what Martin may have done.Most of the world myths we have have the world begining not from order but from chaos.From the biblical,to the Sumerian and the Norse.Hardly,It is remarkably dark again out of nothing,darkness,chaos...Something and order.

We actually don't know other than a moons turn what the hell happens except that the winters and summer can last for years and sometimes you get some weird anomalies with the seasons.Births are usually told in terms of how much of a particular season one has lived so you can see the problem.i.e I've seen 20 summers and 10 winters.But that doesn't quantify truly the time past or my age exactly.What if one winter was 5 months and the other was 12 months.You see the problem with this? So namedays could be really fracked up.

[Sly Wren]

321-330

#321 Julia H.                   

Posted Yesterday, 06:22 PM

wolfmaid7, on 03 Oct 2015 - 4:35 PM, said:

If there was the point being it is mute from a humanoid standpoint,all they have known since forever is how things have always been.They don't know any different and have been acclimated for how things are.But lets look at the World building aspect of what Martin may have done.Most of the world myths we have have the world begining not from order but from chaos.From the biblical,to the Sumerian and the Norse.Hardly,It is remarkably dark again out of nothing,darkness,chaos...Something and order.

We actually don't know other than a moons turn what the hell happens except that the winters and summer can last for years and sometimes you get some weird anomalies with the seasons.Births are usually told in terms of how much of a particular season one has lived so you can see the problem.i.e I've seen 20 summers and 10 winters.But that doesn't quantify truly the time past or my age exactly.What if one winter was 5 months and the other was 12 months.You see the problem with this? So namedays could be really fracked up.

Yet, they definitely have years. The first paragraph of the first chapter of GoT says this:

It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran’s life.

The same chapter tells us that Eddard is 35 years old, Theon is nineteen and Jon is fourteen. I don't recall that they "usually" tell their age by the number of winters they have lived, except when they talk specifically about winter and their experience regarding winter. They seem to exactly know the number of their years, they know how many years a particular season lasted, and the years themselves are numbered. There seems to be no confusion about that. Of course, the seasons are not reliable with regard to counting the years, that is exactly my point. But what is the basis of having years at all? The current seasons cannot be. If, however, they had regular seasons when their calendar was established, then they must have simply kept the old system for practical reasons even after the balance was upset. The years are not tied to any natural cycles now, but the very fact that they have years in their calendar indicates that there used to be a natural cycle corresponding to a year, and since the World Book alludes to the possibility of there being regular seasons once, that seems to be the most likely explanation.

Of course, they don't know what it is like to have regular seasons, but why do some maesters think that seasons used to be regular at all? How did the idea occur to them in the first place? Do they have any scientific evidence or is there something preserved in the depths of collective memory that suggests this (apparently unusual) idea to those maesters?

        

#322 Julia H.                                  

Posted Yesterday, 06:45 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Spoiler

This is another amazing post, Lady B.! I love your theory of Arthur-Lancelot on the Quiet Isle. Arthur being alive would explain a lot about the post-rebellion relationship between Ned and the Dayne family. Apart from that, it sounds fantastic that Arthur meets, on the one hand, Brienne (another "true knight" but with the unfortunate handicap of being a woman) and, on the other hand, Sandor, who does not believe (was bitterly disappointed) in the ideals of knight culture. Brienne is also a link to Jaime. Also, does that mean that Arthur still has Dawn in his possession? It would be wonderful if Arthur Dayne found the next Sword of the Morning, the man who is worthy of wielding Dawn...

        

#323 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 07:14 PM

wolfmaid7, on 02 Oct 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

There's nothing i don't like here.

Cheers!

DarkSister1001, on 03 Oct 2015 - 1:34 PM, said:

I hear what you're saying re a possible dragon dream. 

Cheers! 

DarkSister1001, on 03 Oct 2015 - 1:34 PM, said:

I agree that Good Queen and her Hubby may have been up to something.  You're right, it's doesn't make sense to build an entire new fortress instead of fixing the one that's there.  Maybe it's a nursery for their dragon eggs?  Or they were superstitious about the story of the Rat Cook?  Or wanted the Black Gate out of sight/out of mind?  What are your thoughts on their possible reasoning?

I've been playing around with these questions elsewhere. So, lots of theories and absolutely no concrete proof.

So for the Nightfort--the Black Gate is ancient and obviously magical and vastly predates the magical Targ rule in Westeros. Thinking maybe what you said above is right--out of sight and mind. All anyone has to do to convince people of the power of the Wall and the Watch is take them down that spiral, crypt-like stair and introduce them to Blacky, the talking wall face.

Yet it's now abandoned and forgotten. Sam--who's read almost everything in that library--knew nothing of it. That's a fast losing of knowledge. Throw in how fast the population of the Wall has plummeted under Targ rule--am thinking the Targs saw the Wall as either unnecessary and thus easy to turn into a penal colony, or as a threat to central rule--and thus necessary to turn into a penal colony.

Have also wondered if maybe the vow to stay at the Wall was not for life. The vows are "Watcher on the Walls"--plural walls. Seems like the watch watched from multiple points, perhaps all over the kingdoms. Could they have only come to the Wall for short stints, then gone home to watch? That would make maintaing the population and maintaing the castles MUCH easier than trying to convince 10,000 men at a go to stay celibate and unmarried at a Wall. 

All this is speculation--but it would make sense why someone or someones would need to come to get the Watch back on track. Mormont started the work. Quorin and others had ideas of what was coming. But Jon and Sam seem to be in the know re: needing to fix the Watch. Get it back to being a true shield and sword. A unifying force by choice against a common enemy, not unified by allegiance to a king on an Iron Throne.      

#324 Sly Wren

Posted Yesterday, 07:47 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

I believe it was a rejection of Dayne and Targaryan, but I revise my opinion all the time.  No question Ned loves Jon, but even Jon questions, when he meets the rapists and murderers that are to become his new brothers, his father's motives.  The danger to Jon is past; why would Ned not have tried harder to prevent Jon joining?  I think he doesn't want the boy to become part of world events - look at the disaster that happened to Lyanna.  

Yes--I can buy that. I also think Robert and Cat independently put Ned in a bind re: Jon. Seems like he fully intended to leave Jon at Winterfell with Robb. Close as brothers. So, the rejection of his parental heritage was exacerbated by world events, and by step-maternal rejection. 

Am also assuming Ned didn't believe in any need for Targ heritage (assuming RLJ) and that he knew of the Daynes' tradition of passing the sword only to a worthy wielder. In other words--Ned may not have felt like he was rejecting anything "important." Ironic, given how important family is at Winterfell. And how important Stark heritage is turning out to be re: Long Night.

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

From the Fisher Queens (who live in an island palace that moves around a lake) information in the World Book, my focus was turned to castles or holdfasts surrounded by water (not sea islands though could be at a nexus river to ocean). Look at this list: the God's Eye, the Hightower, Starfall, Riverrun, Graywater Watch, the Quiet Isle.  Hightower, Starfall and the Quiet Isle are surrounded by water at the mouths of rivers where they join the sea.  Greywater Watch is surrounded by marsh and it moves.  The God's Eye is in the centre of a lake.  Riverrun is surrounded by river water when they lower that third side.  

The Fisher Queen palace in the world book was a "wise" place-people went there for wisdom and counsel, analogous to the Isle of Avalon in real world myth, and Avalon was ruled by the Ladies of the Lake, also heavily connected to the tale of the Fisher King.  The World Book even says that it is supposed some of the First Men came from this Fisher Queen area of Essos. So by where they've chosen to live I think we can identify our Fisher Kings/Queens/Ladies of the Lake descendants: the Green Men, Hightowers, Daynes, Reeds, Tully's, and the Brothers of the Quiet Isle.  (I think there might be one more though I haven't found it yet - 7 seems a magic number.  It's possible Winterfell on its hotsprings, surrounded by fresh water in its walls, might be a seventh, but that's a stretch so I'm not including for now).

Excellent. Especially works re: the migration to water. The Children seem forest-focused. But we do have water focused folks, too. Seems like that very well could come from a different tradition.

As for Winterfell and the 7th--that massive deep pool and its tie to the weirwood--could this be a connections between the tree peoples and the water peoples? 

Plus, I played around a bit on Heresy a while back re: Winterfell as Kubla Khan's pleasure dome, from Colerigde. Bloodraven's cave is a lot like the chasm from the poem. And in both--a river runs through it. It's still in Winterfell. But those hot springs--something's up.

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

And aren't these places/people aside from Riverrun and the Quiet Isle the most mysterious places on Westeros?  No one can even find Graywater Watch.  Leyton and his daughter have been up in Hightower tower for ten years and no one has seen them.  We've all been wondering about Starfall and the Daynes forever.  No one aside from Howland Reed has ever been known to visit God's Eye and make it out alive as far as I know.  He hasn't shown up yet either, and his son is wasting away.   Riverrun is not mysterious except that it seems to be an exemplar of barrenness or wasting like in the Fisher King myth - this line of former kings is dying off: Hoster a slow wasting death like a Fisher King himself; Catelyn a wraith more than a human; Robb's dead and his wife's mother prevented pregnancy in his wife; Blackfish won't sire sons; Lysa has an abortion, and her second child Robin seems to be wasting away from a mysterious illness; Bran, identified as a Fisher King figure in far more ways than one, is crippled sexually and physically. Some are alive but symbolically there is something up with the symbols of barrenness and illness, voluntarily or otherwise, of the Tullys, and the Riverlands themselves are painted as a wasteland.

Had not thought of the Riverlands as a wasteland--but you are right. They've changed rulers a number of times (assuming I'm remembering correctly). And if the rivers are supposed to be nourishing--IE Mother Rhoyne--right now it's chaos and violence. Am also wondering if the Freys have been "corrupting" that land for a while with their tolls and too many children.

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Sly Wren, you started me on this line of thought when you asked how would the Daynes, our Ladies of the Lake, see what was happening in the world.  I answered that they would likely use a pool of water and scry like in days of old.  Water got me onto the Fisher Queens in the WB, the description of their floating island palace reminded me of Riverrun, and then Greywater Watch, the God's Eye, Starfall, the Hightower.  Looked to find anything else, came upon the Quiet Isle, which I must have skimmed before.  

I am still considering Winterfell.  It is surrounded by water in the walls.  However, it's the glass gardens that are even more telling.  A few centuries ago, King Arthur's grave was said to have been found at Glastonbury (there's an actual ancient tombstone inscribed in Latin, and though there are varying accounts, it was said when the grave was opened they found a giant of a man inside, with his wife).  Glastonbury is surrounded by land now, but it was once an island called  the "Isle of Glass". You can see why glass gardens might ring a bell.  And even before that name, it was supposed to have been named  Avalon.  Isle of Glass, the original "last hero-king" Arthur's gravesite of saga. Gravesite.  Crypts.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Last Hero's bones are buried at Winterfell.  And if his sword isn't Dawn, his sword might be there as well.  But this does give some support to original Ice perhaps being Dawn.

I was talking about "Hands" in a previous post.  Missing fingers, missing hand,, Hand of the King.  Lancelot with his healing hands, King Arthur's right hand man, loyal to a fault except when it came to Guinevere.  Because I had noticed all the Lancelot imagery around Arthur Dayne before, I also have always suspected he might have loved Lyanna, and might be Jon's father.  I don't think so, but I'm still not sure.  But I think, if you read Elder Brother's story, there might be a bit of truth in the part where he says he loved a girl once but had nothing to offer her but his sword, his shield and his horse. The girl might have been Lyanna or Elia.  It reminded me of Jon's birth and the returned sword, the returned horse, but no shield was returned that we know of.  Ned was his shield.

Okay--this is fabulous. I'm not sold yet, but this is one of the best arguments re: the purpose of the Quiet Isle in the story I've seen so far. The idea that Arthur would want to go into retreat fits, too. He's lost his king and his prince. Could see him as having lost his ideals re: kings, too. Retreating, like Sandor retreats--they are very different men from what we know, but it would fit.

Plus, as I said--would make sense why on earth they are including this in the story. And I love your argument re: the healing. Yes, Arthur was a great fighter. But he was a greater protector--as Jaime shows. And as Jaime tries to be.

On Arthur as Lancelot in love with Lyanna--throw in tower of joy and Joyeuse Garde--it's just right there. Has to be considered. Like you, I'm not sold. But it is there and thus possible. And had forgotten what the Elder brother said--it would be accurate for a Kingsguard. . . 

Am liking the idea of Ned as shield. Jon's Stark side ties him to the Wall--a shield. His love for and from his siblings--a shield. It works.

And will have to finish up later--out of time.. . . 

 

#325 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 08:57 PM

Okay--a little time to finish up.

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

I don't think there will be a question - the questions usually asked are too trite.  I think it will resemble a sword in the land metaphor. I'm with you though.  A mother myself!  I tear up just thinking about Bran in that tree, and I don't think Martin will let it happen to him.  Remember that if the seasons are righted, there won't be any reason for Bran to stay in it anyway.  He doesn't have to be a greenseer. He's the summer king!  And we've been told that the next book, and the next season on tv, will be about bringing everybody together again.  Also Martin is perfectly capable of thinking up a reason to get him out of there in the meantime.  None of this follows any myth exactly.  Most people don't believe Bran will walk again, but I do!  The Fisher King myth gives me hope!  50/50 anyway.

1. The Questions--I agree, they might be trite. But am also thinking they might already have been asked: the Black Gate and Jojen. Black Gate asks "who are you?" (I always think of the caterpillar from Alice here). Answer isn't family or blood--it's role. It's one's relationship to other people. A question designed to focus on what matters. Thinking Bran might have to ask himself something similar--am I a tree or a person? What is my goal? Like all the Stark kids are asking themselves and being asked "who are you?"

Then there's the moment when Jojen insists that Bran's wolf dreams are real. That Bran is Summer and Summer is him. Bran protests. Denies that he's a wolf. Jon denied his wolf dreams despite Quorin's insistence. Sansa's very first POV shows her intense wolf-bond and her confusion re: Lady's role in her Lannister life. Result? Loses her wolf (though I think she's communing with her now). Arya actively drove her wolf away. At some point, they are all realizing, "no--wait! I am a wolf!" Am wondering what happens when Bran says, "wait! I'm a wolf, not a tree!!!"

2. Really, really hope you are right re: Bran's healing. Not sure how it would work. But will keep an eye out.

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

No I meant Arya.  But I didn't want to say it out loud.  She's my favorite character.  But what did you think when the GoHH called her "dark heart"?  I revolted.  No matter how "dark side" Arya's turned, she has more vitality and "heart" than anyone in the entire book, and this transference was one way I could see her being called "dark heart". I do think Martin still intends for Jon and Arya to love each other, so one or the other might be Nissa Nissa.  Fits with LmL too: Dany as his fire moon, Arya as his ice moon (with a piece of stone/glass in her heart like Kay from the Snow Queen that needs removing).  I've also always wondered if the vengeful spirit of Rhaenys Targaryan isn't riding with her ever since she kissed Balerion the cat right between the eyes like the three-eyed crow pecked at Bran.  The dragon bones were hostile to her before but friendly to her afterwards!   The GoHH might have been seeing Rhaenys' dark vengeful heart!  But that's a piece of tinfoil I don't share with just anyone!  

Anyway, as soon as I realized Arthur was alive, and possibly in league with members of other "Fisher Queen" houses, I thought I would tell you guys, but unfortunately had to try to prove it to you so this got really long.  The Sword of the Morning could well be alive and can pass on the sword himself.

1. I do worry about Arya a lot. Dark heart could mean a lot of things--and I agree that she has a good heart. A strong sense of justice, too. I agree with a lot of sweetsunray's ideas re: Arya and justice. But she, like Bran, is in a position to have a LOT of power. And even misuse it. As Bran thinks re: the Children's "dwindling:" "Men would be wroth." Bran-in-Summer enjoys dominating other wolves. As does Nymeria. Sansa's learned a lot about managing difficult children--am thinking it might come in handy. 

2. I tend to think Sansa has replaced Arya in the "Jon loves his former sister" scenario from the original synopsis. And, if there was a Nissa Nissa for Jon, seems a bit more like Ygritte. Though that was not a sacrifice in the same sense. Then of course I'm not sold on Jon as following those parts of the AA myth quite as much as I see Brienne with Oathkeeper. . . but those are just my prejudices.

3. On the last bolded--i would love it if Arthur could pass the sword to Jon. Or give it to someone else to give to Jon. And you're analysis on the Fisher Queens--fabulous! Now I need to find time to re-read that stuff. . .

 

#326 Sly Wren

Posted Yesterday, 09:03 PM

Julia H., on 03 Oct 2015 - 1:28 PM, said:

Just because I can’t resist: That dream scene is very complex. Jaime thinks that he is under the Rock, but he also realizes that he has arrived at a place he does not know. Jaime and Brienne are also walking in water. Now where do we hear of an underground place where there is water? (We also know that Jaime is sleeping on a weirwood stump when he has this dream.) The actual dialogue between Brienne and Jaime is this:

“A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

Jaime silently rules out bears and lions but not direwolves. It strongly suggests that there are direwolves in that place and that direwolves are doom.

Okay--I had not made that connection on the direwolves. Had mostly focused on the fact that as someone (Clegane?) says--all the lions are dead. Now Jaime says--no lions under the rock. The Lannisters are detached.

And I had thought that the doom was the KG confronting Jaime.

But you are right--that place filled with water--that's an underworld like Bran's cave (with water underneath) and the Winterfell crypts--with who-knows-what underneath. The direwolves will outlive the Children, according to Leaf. And they are very much tied to the dead with the Stark crypt. Not to mention Sansa's being tied to a dead wolf. So--direwolves in the realm of the undead, bringing potential doom--this has interesting implications.

Especially with Arthur Dayne and his eternally sad face showing up after--if Jon is the Sword of the Morning with a white direwolf--doom to Jaime? Too much?

        

#327 sweetsunray            

Posted Yesterday, 09:35 PM

Lady Barbrey regarding the shield... perhaps it was returned way way earlier? Remember the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

        

#328 sweetsunray            

Posted Yesterday, 09:48 PM

Sly Wren, on 03 Oct 2015 - 8:03 PM, said:

Okay--I had not made that connection on the direwolves. Had mostly focused on the fact that as someone (Clegane?) says--all the lions are dead. Now Jaime says--no lions under the rock. The Lannisters are detached.

And I had thought that the doom was the KG confronting Jaime.

But you are right--that place filled with water--that's an underworld like Bran's cave (with water underneath) and the Winterfell crypts--with who-knows-what underneath. The direwolves will outlive the Children, according to Leaf. And they are very much tied to the dead with the Stark crypt. Not to mention Sansa's being tied to a dead wolf. So--direwolves in the realm of the undead, bringing potential doom--this has interesting implications.

Especially with Arthur Dayne and his eternally sad face showing up after--if Jon is the Sword of the Morning with a white direwolf--doom to Jaime? Too much?

Direwolves are definitely established as an underworld creature. The Winterfell crypts are the first underworld we ever visit in the books: direwolves. I can prove that an other "underworld" we visit, even earlier than the crypts is Winterfell's godswood. But you won't realize it before reading the Winterfell crypt chapter. But basically Robert declares bogs and forests (all non-cultivated land) as part of a vast emptyness, and North, and far away, unseen, with no people... pretty much a world of the dead, in direct contrast of his "life" speech on the stairs down to the crypts. The crypts themselves establish silence as an underworld symbol. And that is also what the sisters treating the dead bodies use as a symbolic tie to the Stranger - silence of the silent sisters. So, knowing that, then go back to Cat's chapter approaching Ned who's cleaning the blood of Ice beside the heart tree and the dark, "cold", pool (cold is another symbol), and she specifically describes how the moss and grass dampens out all the sound. 

Hence, WF crypts and godswood = underworld. Where do Bran and Rickon keep the wolves? In the godswood.

Ned has a crypt dream, right before he's woken up to speak with Robert one last time before he dies, where he dreams he visits the crypts? And in that dream the stone direwolves turns their heads and snarl at him, and Lyanna's statue is weeping blood. 

  

#329 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted 16 minutes ago

Julia H., on 03 Oct 2015 - 1:28 PM, said:

Quote

I’ve been following this thread all these weeks, but it is hard to catch up with the discussion – the thread is fast and there is always so much to think about. There are some fantastic contributors and posts here! Congratulations to Sly Wren on starting it all! I cannot even begin to list all the wonderful ideas I’ve found here.

To add my two cents, on the recent “balance of the seasons” discussion: I completely agree with LmL that there must have been a balance once. The tentative suggestion in the World Book points in this direction, and, perhaps more importantly, the fact that they count the years suggests that, too. What is a year if not a complete period of time? Currently, the most regular natural period that Planetos has is a moon turn. Yet, they do not count just moon turns, they count years, and I guess each year has the same number of moon turns – they know when their name day is coming and so on. Yet, this regularity is totally artificial. They could just count moon turns, which is their natural “calendar”, so how did they get the idea of organizing the moon turns into years? What would have been the point if they had never had a corresponding natural period? 

This is an excellent point.  What would it even matter what constituted a "year".  They must count moon turns now, but it absolutely suggests that they remember when seasons were regular .  Good catch!

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Just because I can’t resist: That dream scene is very complex. Jaime thinks that he is under the Rock, but he also realizes that he has arrived at a place he does not know. Jaime and Brienne are also walking in water. Now where do we hear of an underground place where there is water? (We also know that Jaime is sleeping on a weirwood stump when he has this dream.) The actual dialogue between Brienne and Jaime is this:

“A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

Jaime silently rules out bears and lions but not direwolves. It strongly suggests that there are direwolves in that place and that direwolves are doom.

Another great catch.  I looked at that scene for some time and never caught it.  Crypts and labryinths seem often the same thing in GRRM - at their heart lies wisdom, as the pattern-makers say, or monsters, such as the archetypal minotaur in the maze.  Jaime sees doom and direwolves - the monsters of the Starks - but what he learns, if his redemption arc that follows after this dream has any meaning, is wisdom.  Compare that to Dany in the HotU maze, who embraces her monster (possibly not wise) to destroy the maze itself, or to Tyrion in the walls of Kings Landing, who destroys his monster, Tywin, but doesn't necessarily learn anything wise either.  There seems to be a message here in these visits by different characters.

Snip.

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Finally, I absolutely must say that this post by Lady Barbrey came as a revelation to me. Lady B., you even managed to shake my RLJ conviction! I could totally accept it now if Jon were Arthur's son... But I still think that the most important elements of this theory work in the RLJ framework as well. If Dany is a Targ and therefore comes from the corrupted line of the Amethyst Empress, while Jon is a Dayne and comes from a pure bloodline, therefore is pure, then neither of them seems to have much of a choice. If both are descendants of Valyria, however, yet, they can make different choices, then one of them can redeem the "shadowed" bloodline by freeing it from the shadow.

The Dayne blood can still play a part if the Starks and the Daynes are related and if Dawn is the original Ice, which Jon might win back for the Stark family through merit.

Absolutely.  RLJ, ALJ, NAJ - I'm 90% RLJ but I leave room!  I've recently come to the conclusion that Jon might in fact be the child of "three" - fathers.  The red dragon, the sword of the morning, and the Wall=The red horse, Dawn, and Ned (at Jon's birth)=The horse, the sword and the shield (that Elder Brother=Arthur Dayne speaks of as the only things he could offer the woman he loved).  It's like a holy trinity, his father of the flesh (Rhaegar), his father of the spirit (Arthur), and his father of protection, morality and nurture (Ned). With Lyanna of course embracing all three through her relationship to all of them.

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That way Jon could be a descendant of both the pure and the corrupted line – if the First Men fled from the BSE’s terror, then perhaps the Starks and the Daynes are two branches of the same original family (hence both are descendants of the AmEm). The Daynes preserved the original features and perhaps the original principles of “Camelot”, while the Starks became “icified” (is that a possible word?) up in the North, the same way as the Valyrians became the fire people among the Fourteen Flames. Anyway, if Jon is descended from both the pure and the shadowed GeoDawnians, he may be magically in the perfect position to really have a choice between evil and good, between blood magic and self-sacrifice. That could make him truly unique in the sense that no one else may have had this kind of choice between the two traditions: Jon could embrace the fire and blood magic (the temptation of corrupted power), and therefore his rejection of it may be a powerful act in itself - something that the "all pure" Daynes could not have done. 

Yes!  That's exactly how I see it.

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I absolutely love the idea of Jon as the true Great Emperor of the Dawn - even if it is in a totally symbolic (or spiritual) sense, because I don't really think that we will see that legendary empire physically revive. I also suspect that achieving this status is likely to involve some great self-sacrifice - the opposite of what the BSE did.

Me too!  But I do think it is only in a spiritual sense.  And I do believe it must have to do with self-sacrifice. On the other hand, motive plays a role.  If he loves a woman - truly, madly deeply - who willingly wants to sacrifice herself on a sword (a true one, not his "manhood"), in order to save the entire world - doesn't that imply self-sacrifice on an even larger scale than sacrificing himself? I think of my daughter, for instance, who I love more than life itself - I couldn't do it even if she begged me, even if the whole world begged me.  I would willingly sacrifice myself but my daughter? This motif is introduced right at the beginning of Game of Thrones during Ned's meditations. It is also implied in the AA myth, and I think that is still a potential ending to the story.  Not to birth dragons or swords or children - but to birth light.

 

#330 Lady Barbrey

Posted 9 minutes ago

Julia H., on 03 Oct 2015 - 5:45 PM, said:

Lady Barbrey, on 03 Oct 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Spoiler

This is another amazing post, Lady B.! I love your theory of Arthur-Lancelot on the Quiet Isle. Arthur being alive would explain a lot about the post-rebellion relationship between Ned and the Dayne family. Apart from that, it sounds fantastic that Arthur meets, on the one hand, Brienne (another "true knight" but with the unfortunate handicap of being a woman) and, on the other hand, Sandor, who does not believe (was bitterly disappointed) in the ideals of knight culture. Brienne is also a link to Jaime. Also, does that mean that Arthur still has Dawn in his possession? It would be wonderful if Arthur Dayne found the next Sword of the Morning, the man who is worthy of wielding Dawn...

I know!  Go back to the huge man in the armour full of blood standing over Jaime and Sandor, all shadowing Arya and Sansa.  Yet, while initially they seemed threatening, Jaime and Sandor have proved, if anything, to be the girls' protectors.  How did that change?  Jaime was sent a vision seemingly from the Old Gods on his weir stump; Sandor - well who knows we don't have his POV - but I suspect it has something to do with Sansa - the faith - the mother's song.  The Old God visions and the Faith of the Seven working together or towards similar ends. I think they are in some respect.  I think my most recent post kind of suggested that - the 7 brothers of the Quiet Isle have replaced the 9 fairy/druidical sisters of Avalon, but the isle is still idyllic, still self-sufficient, still a place of repose, wisdom and transformation.  Certainly of death and rebirth in the case of Sandor and Arthur. That's what Avalon is supposed to do - it was King Arthur's final resting place from which he would be born again (and where Jon will be born again as the Last Hero reborn, in the Avalon of King A-Last Hero's real death - Winterfell).  These Andalized gods of the seven seem old to me - there were traces of them by number and symbol all through the World Book.  I wouldn't be surprised if in Westeros they can work in tandem with the Old Gods - in fact they must.  It's a reflection of Britain's old history - and Westeros seems particularly adept at this - wherein the new conquering religion demonizes some aspects but is in fact conquered from within in many others, and a transformation of sorts takes place.

331-335

#331 Lady Barbrey                    

Posted Today, 01:48 AM

Sly Wren, on 03 Oct 2015 - 6:14 PM, said:

I've been playing around with these questions elsewhere. So, lots of theories and absolutely no concrete proof.

So for the Nightfort--the Black Gate is ancient and obviously magical and vastly predates the magical Targ rule in Westeros. Thinking maybe what you said above is right--out of sight and mind. All anyone has to do to convince people of the power of the Wall and the Watch is take them down that spiral, crypt-like stair and introduce them to Blacky, the talking wall face.

Yet it's now abandoned and forgotten. Sam--who's read almost everything in that library--knew nothing of it. That's a fast losing of knowledge. Throw in how fast the population of the Wall has plummeted under Targ rule--am thinking the Targs saw the Wall as either unnecessary and thus easy to turn into a penal colony, or as a threat to central rule--and thus necessary to turn into a penal colony.

Have also wondered if maybe the vow to stay at the Wall was not for life. The vows are "Watcher on the Walls"--plural walls. Seems like the watch watched from multiple points, perhaps all over the kingdoms. Could they have only come to the Wall for short stints, then gone home to watch? That would make maintaing the population and maintaing the castles MUCH easier than trying to convince 10,000 men at a go to stay celibate and unmarried at a Wall. 

All this is speculation--but it would make sense why someone or someones would need to come to get the Watch back on track. Mormont started the work. Quorin and others had ideas of what was coming. But Jon and Sam seem to be in the know re: needing to fix the Watch. Get it back to being a true shield and sword. A unifying force by choice against a common enemy, not unified by allegiance to a king on an Iron Throne.

I just wanted to make a point on Jahaerys and Alysanne.  I looked up Glastonbury since I last posted because I started to become convinced by my own theory that Winterfell was an Avalon version, but the Glastonbury one, where Arthur's bones are said to lie.  Get this - Edward I and his queen Eleanor (who were known to be devoted to one another over the course of her lifetime, and for the rest of his life too after she died even though he eventually married again - their relationship was considered exceptional for the times) travelled to Glastonbury in the 12th century - to move King Arthur's bones to a new resting place and a new tomb.  Eleanor was also known as a savvy businesswoman, frequently extending "gifts" but expecting payback in one way or another.  That is very likely why Yandel says the Lord of Winterfell seemed to oblige but wasn't happy - those lands technically became crownlands even though ostensibly the Night's Watch would be in control.  

But the key thing here is that they messed around with King Arthur's bones.  So the Last Hero might not be buried where we would expect - in the deepest reaches of the crypts -, and there might be something unexpected in the tomb.  Something missing?  Or something Targaryan added?

        

#332 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 02:13 AM

DarkSister1001, on 03 Oct 2015 - 1:34 PM, said:

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 Here's the one I read.  The 2 things that really seal this for me are 1) The story told by Meera was told to her by Howland...why would a man describe another woman to his children the way he does?  2)  Howland is Ned's staunchest ally and friend, relatively close neighbors but they haven't seen each other since they returned from war?  That's weird.  This wasn't part f the theory but it always seemed interesting to me that his name is HOWLand.  Curious name for someone so important to the Quiet Wolf. 

Thanks, and it's definitely viable.  I feel those two families are connected anyway, so a marriage could make sense.  Something to keep in the back of my mind.

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Of course!  How could I forget the Great Jon?!  I LOVE that scene. 

IIRC...Umber has 2 maimed fingers, Halfhand has 3 maimed fingers, Davos has 4 maimed fingers and Jaime's entire hand is gone (5 fingers).  NO WAY is this a coincidence.  Umber was Robb's right hand, as you said.  Halfhand was commander at the Shadow Tower which would make him very important to Mormont.  Davos is Stannis' Hand and Cersei tried to convince Jaime to be Hand (for Robert?  Joff?  Tommen?  I don't recall exactly).  Do we have anyone with 1 maimed finger?

That is weird - two, three, four - five.You're right - no coincidence!  Too sequential.  

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Funny as it is, Jon has a maimed hand as well.  The one he burned saving Mormont from the wight's. 

Interesting.  I don't think it puts him in the same typography as the rest of them but it does mirror them - he was serving in effect as Mormont's Hand at that time.  Lancelot imagery I swear!

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I would guess that at least 1 of the LHs companions lost a digit, if not the LH himself.  They spent quit a long time in harsh, unforgiving cold.  Jeyne lost the tip of her nose in short amount of time.

Hmmm...black appendages = frost bite.  Also a symptom of being a wight. 

I thought of Coldhands too!  But dismissed it for the same reason.  OTOH, those hands stand out, and of course Martin means them too.  They even call him Coldhands.  He's obviously working for BR, so he could be BR's "hand" symbolized by the dead hands.  Or he might have worked in a similar capacity to someone back when he was in the NW.  But I think it's BR.

The big mystery for me is Illyrio's wife.  Not one but two whole hands in a box.  We had a messenger whose hands were cut off.  And in Dany's dream of the Red Wedding the noticeable component was the cut off hands still with glasses or forks in them.

Possible connection here?

        

#333 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Today, 02:14 AM

Julia H., on 03 Oct 2015 - 5:22 PM, said:

Yet, they definitely have years. The first paragraph of the first chapter of GoT says this:

It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran’s life.

The same chapter tells us that Eddard is 35 years old, Theon is nineteen and Jon is fourteen. I don't recall that they "usually" tell their age by the number of winters they have lived, except when they talk specifically about winter and their experience regarding winter. They seem to exactly know the number of their years, they know how many years a particular season lasted, and the years themselves are numbered. There seems to be no confusion about that. Of course, the seasons are not reliable with regard to counting the years, that is exactly my point. But what is the basis of having years at all? The current seasons cannot be. If, however, they had regular seasons when their calendar was established, then they must have simply kept the old system for practical reasons even after the balance was upset. The years are not tied to any natural cycles now, but the very fact that they have years in their calendar indicates that there used to be a natural cycle corresponding to a year, and since the World Book alludes to the possibility of there being regular seasons once, that seems to be the most likely explanation.

Of course, they don't know what it is like to have regular seasons, but why do some maesters think that seasons used to be regular at all? How did the idea occur to them in the first place? Do they have any scientific evidence or is there something preserved in the depths of collective memory that suggests this (apparently unusual) idea to those maesters?

I get that they theorethically have years but logically as you stated and as i pointed out .If the seasons aren't reliable or even regular ,Then there's no accuracy.This is what the WB says

" Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predct the length and the change of the season,all efforts have been confounded...............Based on his work on the movement of the stars in the firmament ,Nicol argues unconvinigly that the seasons might one have been of a regular length,determined soley by the way the globe faces the Sun in it heveanly course.The notion behind it seems true enough-thet the lengthning and shortening of days ,if more regular,would have led to a more reular season-but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales WB pg 11.side bar.

So if they can't discern the lengthning and shortening of days then its messed up.This regularity as i pointed out would not have happened in terms of human existence on Planetos.If there was a planetary mishap that resulted is a second moon getting destroyed sending thousands of Meteors down on Planetos there would be no story, as some of those Meteors no doubt would have been World enders. Good bye and goodnight to Planetos.

        

#334 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 02:42 AM

sweetsunray, on 03 Oct 2015 - 8:35 PM, said:

Lady Barbrey regarding the shield... perhaps it was returned way way earlier? Remember the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

Okay, I had not even considered that.  They could find only the shield, hanging in a tree, right? But we don't know who it was returned to, or even if it was.  The "mystery" shield?  They would have taken it to Aerys.  

The loss of a shield to a monster like Aerys.  I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that the "abduction" was a rescue from Aerys.  

Any thoughts on this?  I'm flummoxed.

        

#335 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 03:33 AM

Sly Wren, on 03 Oct 2015 - 6:47 PM, said:

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Excellent. Expecially works re: the migration to water. The Children seem forest-focused. But we do have water focused folks, too. Seems like that very well could come from a different tradition.

As for Winterfell and the 7th--that massive deep pool and its tie to the weirwood--could this be a connections between the tree peoples and the water peoples? 

Plus, I played around a bit on Heresy a while back re: Winterfell as Kubla Khan's pleasure dome, from Colerigde. Bloodraven's cave is a lot like the chasm from the poem. And in both--a river runs through it. It's still in Winterfell. But those hot springs--something's up.

I think they might be one and the same.  The Fisher Queen's lake has shrunken into three smaller ones.  If I had to choose three of the locations in Westeros that would represent three Avalons/FQ islands (life-giving generation, blending/development, death/rebirth, I would pick the God's Eye, Graywater Watch and Winterfell, because of three-part association.   In the first we have a sacred island completely surrounded by water, so two distinct entities but harmonized.  Moreover green - life iself, growing things, trees. - all fed by lifegiving water.   In the second, Graywater Watch  we have water and earth mixed - mud - so harmonized but as a blending.  And it moves - so forward motion, change, development.  These two come closest to the Fisher Queen Island.  Winterfell represents the shrinking itself,  I think, where land takes over the water, but the water is still there, still surrounding, still in the lake and the tree - death but rebirth.

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Had not thought of the Riverlands as a wasteland--but you are right. They've changed rulers a number of times (assuming I'm remembering correctly). And if the rivers are supposed to be nourishing--IE Mother Rhoyne--right now it's chaos and violence. Am also wondering if the Freys have been "corrupting" that land for a while with their tolls and too many children.

A big part of AFFC for me was Brienne's journeys through the Riverlands.  They've become an almost surreal hell - a wasteland.  And sweetsunray posited that Lady Stoneheart is filling the Norse mythological character of Hel, queen of the underworld, and I agree, especially if we think of Lady Stoneheart (oldest daughter of the Fisher King house) as representative of their dying, a wraith of herself, a reflection as much of the land and people as her House itself.  There's as much a spiritual death in terms of morality and commonality of humanity going on in the Riverlands as the devastation of its fields and rivers.  

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Sly Wren, on 03 Oct 2015 - 6:47 PM, said:

Okay--this is fabulous. I'm not sold yet, but this is one of the best arguments re: the purpose of the Quiet Isle in the story I've seen so far. The idea that Arthur would want to go into retreat fits, too. He's lost his king and his prince. Could see him as having lost his ideals re: kings, too. Retreating, like Sandor retreats--they are very different men from what we know, but it would fit.

Plus, as I said--would make sense why on earth they are including this in the story. And I love your argument re: the healing. Yes, Arthur was a great fighter. But he was a greater protector--as Jaime shows. And as Jaime tries to be.

On Arthur as Lancelot in love with Lyanna--throw in tower of joy and Joyeuse Garde--it's just right there. Has to be considered. Like you, I'm not sold. But it is there and thus possible. And had forgotten what the Elder brother said--it would be accurate for a Kingsguard. . . 

Am liking the idea of Ned as shield. Jon's Stark side ties him to the Wall--a shield. His love for and from his siblings--a shield. It works.

And will have to finish up later--out of time.. . . 

For myself I'm kind of sold on the Arthur Dayne identity.  Working with allusions rather than facts, and trying to show it to people who might not have read the work being referenced, is always hard to do, I find.  Harder than straight symbolism, or hard quotes - and you can often be wrong because the author decides to go in a different direction.  But I am sold that it is Arthur Dayne.  This is not a straight analogy - it should be the king (Rhaegar) on that island if it's Avalon, not Lancelot - but the parallels with Lancelot, particularly after the Arthurian saga is over (and not many people, even those who've read some of the Arthurian sagas, have read or followed what happened to Lancelot after Arthur died), with the monastery and the Hermit's Cave and the healing hands, are just too clear to me, as is Arthur's identification with Lancelot.  It feels completely right.  

Yeah - Joyous Gard.  Radar went off as soon as I saw Tower of Joy.  And it's Arthur Dayne's castle, just as Joyous Gard was Lancelot's.  

 

#336 Julia H.                      

Posted Today, 06:18 AM

Sly Wren, on 03 Oct 2015 - 8:03 PM, said:

Okay--I had not made that connection on the direwolves. Had mostly focused on the fact that as someone (Clegane?) says--all the lions are dead. Now Jaime says--no lions under the rock. The Lannisters are detached.

And I had thought that the doom was the KG confronting Jaime.

But you are right--that place filled with water--that's an underworld like Bran's cave (with water underneath) and the Winterfell crypts--with who-knows-what underneath. The direwolves will outlive the Children, according to Leaf. And they are very much tied to the dead with the Stark crypt. Not to mention Sansa's being tied to a dead wolf. So--direwolves in the realm of the undead, bringing potential doom--this has interesting implications.

Especially with Arthur Dayne and his eternally sad face showing up after--if Jon is the Sword of the Morning with a white direwolf--doom to Jaime? Too much?

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

Another great catch.  I looked at that scene for some time and never caught it.  Crypts and labryinths seem often the same thing in GRRM - at their heart lies wisdom, as the pattern-makers say, or monsters, such as the archetypal minotaur in the maze.  Jaime sees doom and direwolves - the monsters of the Starks - but what he learns, if his redemption arc that follows after this dream has any meaning, is wisdom.  Compare that to Dany in the HotU maze, who embraces her monster (possibly not wise) to destroy the maze itself, or to Tyrion in the walls of Kings Landing, who destroys his monster, Tywin, but doesn't necessarily learn anything wise either.  There seems to be a message here in these visits by different characters.

Sly Wren, I think the KG and the direwolves are connected – both Ned and the members of the KG judge Jaime for what he did. Also, Jaime sees the KG in his dream as ghosts “armored in snow”, while Ghost, the direwolf, Jon Snow’s white “shadow”, serves as Jon’s Kingsguard – and Rhaegar reminds Jaime that he left his children in his hands to protect them.  

There has been quite convincing discussion that the place where Jaime ends up in that dream is probably under Winterfell (water + direwolves in a weirwood dream). It seems that Jaime, Jon and Theon dream different parts of the same dream. At the end of the dream, Jaime’s sword “went dark”. In Jon’s part of the dream (Jon is in the crypts, of course), a light has gone out somewhere. When the Kingsguard and Rhaegar appear, at first Jaime thinks it is Eddard Stark. Jon is looking for his father in the crypts. Jon means Ned, of course, but Ned is not there, either, but he appears in Theon’s dream (the feast with the dead), while Jon’s biological father appears to Jaime (this actually works with both Rhaegar and Arthur). Jaime thinks of direwolves as doom (cf. by what right does the wolf judge the lion?) and Jon sees a direwolf spotted with blood. I could go on because there is a lot more… It’s an exciting topic.

BTW, Jaime can also expect a confrontation with Lady Stoneheart - a conflict involving water, "stone", the underworld, direwolves and the protection of children.

        

#337 Julia H.                      

Posted Today, 06:25 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

Absolutely.  RLJ, ALJ, NAJ - I'm 90% RLJ but I leave room!  I've recently come to the conclusion that Jon might in fact be the child of "three" - fathers.  The red dragon, the sword of the morning, and the Wall=The red horse, Dawn, and Ned (at Jon's birth)=The horse, the sword and the shield (that Elder Brother=Arthur Dayne speaks of as the only things he could offer the woman he loved).  It's like a holy trinity, his father of the flesh (Rhaegar), his father of the spirit (Arthur), and his father of protection, morality and nurture (Ned). With Lyanna of course embracing all three through her relationship to all of them.

This is another wonderful idea! 

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

Me too!  But I do think it is only in a spiritual sense.  And I do believe it must have to do with self-sacrifice. On the other hand, motive plays a role.  If he loves a woman - truly, madly deeply - who willingly wants to sacrifice herself on a sword (a true one, not his "manhood"), in order to save the entire world - doesn't that imply self-sacrifice on an even larger scale than sacrificing himself? I think of my daughter, for instance, who I love more than life itself - I couldn't do it even if she begged me, even if the whole world begged me.  I would willingly sacrifice myself but my daughter? This motif is introduced right at the beginning of Game of Thrones during Ned's meditations. It is also implied in the AA myth, and I think that is still a potential ending to the story.  Not to birth dragons or swords or children - but to rebirth balance.

This is a difficult question, the borderline between self-sacrifice and sacrificing another human being. We do have a willing victim of (self-)sacrifice that Jon kills: Qhorin Halfhand, and, of course, the whole Night’s Watch is about self-sacrifice (and all kinds of soldiers are sacrificed every day in battle), but that’s different from killing women or children, killing the innocent for whatever purpose. The AA myth is there to challenge our perception of morality, and the same question is brought up again with Stannis and Edric Storm. It may still come back again.

  

#338 Julia H.

Posted Today, 06:41 AM

wolfmaid7, on 04 Oct 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

I get that they theorethically have years but logically as you stated and as i pointed out .If the seasons aren't reliable or even regular ,Then there's no accuracy.This is what the WB says

" Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predct the length and the change of the season,all efforts have been confounded...............Based on his work on the movement of the stars in the firmament ,Nicol argues unconvinigly that the seasons might one have been of a regular length,determined soley by the way the globe faces the Sun in it heveanly course.The notion behind it seems true enough-thet the lengthning and shortening of days ,if more regular,would have led to a more reular season-but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales WB pg 11.side bar.

So if they can't discern the lengthning and shortening of days then its messed up.This regularity as i pointed out would not have happened in terms of human existence on Planetos.If there was a planetary mishap that resulted is a second moon getting destroyed sending thousands of Meteors down on Planetos there would be no story, as some of those Meteors no doubt would have been World enders. Good bye and goodnight to Planetos.

Well, then nothing explains why they count the years at all, or how they came to the idea of establishing these totally artificial time units in the first place. If there is no accuracy, then it’s an even greater question why they bother with the years at all. I think the answer is tradition. But when and why did the tradition start? Besides a maester’s astronomical speculation, “the most ancient tales” also appear to provide some evidence of regular seasons a long time ago (that’s clearly stated in the quote you provided) – and they are definitely within the terms of human existence, even within human memory. Yandel dismisses these myths, but should we, the readers, do the same? Regardless of the causes of the first Long Night (nobody seems to doubt that there was a Long Night, even though most of the evidence mentioned is basically mythological), it sounds very much like the perfect occasion when the balance of the seasons may have been upset. Even Yandel says that the irregularity of the seasons is related to the irregularity of night and day, and what is the Long Night if not the most obvious example of the imbalance between night and day?

Humans existed before the Long Night, and there are tales and myths preserved from that period. If some ancient tales suggest that seasons used to be regular once, they definitely allude to something within the scope of collective human memory. If seasons were regular before the Long Night, it made sense then to establish the concept of a year, which they still use currently despite the inaccuracy and even though there are no regular natural periods behind it any longer.

           

#339 LmL

Posted Today, 11:08 AM

wolfmaid7, on 04 Oct 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

I get that they theorethically have years but logically as you stated and as i pointed out .If the seasons aren't reliable or even regular ,Then there's no accuracy.This is what the WB says
 
" Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predct the length and the change of the season,all efforts have been confounded...............Based on his work on the movement of the stars in the firmament ,Nicol argues unconvinigly that the seasons might one have been of a regular length,determined soley by the way the globe faces the Sun in it heveanly course.The notion behind it seems true enough-thet the lengthning and shortening of days ,if more regular,would have led to a more reular season-but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales WB pg 11.side bar.
 
So if they can't discern the lengthning and shortening of days then its messed up.This regularity as i pointed out would not have happened in terms of human existence on Planetos.If there was a planetary mishap that resulted is a second moon getting destroyed sending thousands of Meteors down on Planetos there would be no story, as some of those Meteors no doubt would have been World enders. Good bye and goodnight to Planetos.

Not necessarily, and also try to remember that it's fiction and the meteors did exactly as much damage as Martin needed them too. You should probably stay away from making declarative pronouncements about hypotheticals in a fantasy fiction environment. If Martin wants to make moon meteors land on Planetos, he can quite easily do so and yes, there is still a story. A good story, as a matter of fact, and one which pays homage to Lovecraft and his magically toxic black meteors.

Julia's point still remains - how do they even have a notion of so many moon's turns equalling one year if they never had years? And regardless of what you think about moons exploding, the Long Night seems to be a one of a kind weather-related disaster which occurred eight thousand years ago, so the idea that the seasons were messed up at this time seems fairly likely. The Long Night is basically defined by is disruption to the natural order of days and seasons, whatever caused it.

 

#340 LmL                

Posted Today, 11:33 AM

Julia H., on 04 Oct 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

 
 
Sly Wren, I think the KG and the direwolves are connected both Ned and the members of the KG judge Jaime for what he did. Also, Jaime sees the KG in his dream as ghosts armored in snow, while Ghost, the direwolf, Jon Snows white shadow, serves as Jons Kingsguard and Rhaegar reminds Jaime that he left his children in his hands to protect them.  
 
There has been quite convincing discussion that the place where Jaime ends up in that dream is probably under Winterfell (water + direwolves in a weirwood dream). It seems that Jaime, Jon and Theon dream different parts of the same dream. At the end of the dream, Jaimes sword went dark. In Jons part of the dream (Jon is in the crypts, of course), a light has gone out somewhere. When the Kingsguard and Rhaegar appear, at first Jaime thinks it is Eddard Stark. Jon is looking for his father in the crypts. Jon means Ned, of course, but Ned is not there, either, but he appears in Theons dream (the feast with the dead), while Jons biological father appears to Jaime (this actually works with both Rhaegar and Arthur). Jaime thinks of direwolves as doom (cf. by what right does the wolf judge the lion?) and Jon sees a direwolf spotted with blood. I could go on because there is a lot more Its an exciting topic.
 
BTW, Jaime can also expect a confrontation with Lady Stoneheart - a conflict involving water, "stone", the underworld, direwolves and the protection of children.

Ghost, KG, and the Others are all described as pale shadows. I think the idea of the NK being either AA or the LH fits - the former dragon king with white shadows protecting him matches the pattern. Targaryen dragon kings guarded by white shadows - the KG. Jon the dragon king guarded by his own personal white shadow.

The NK made pale shadows (probably) with the Nights Queen, an icy moon maiden. According to my theory, Visenya represent Aegon's ice bride, and she is the one created the order of the KG. Later we see that Visenya's Hill is home to the Sept of Baelor, which is parallel to the Wall in terms of symbolism. The crystal everything, the high septon's weirwood staff topped with crystal, and the Warrior's Sons. I've mentioned this a bit here and there, but the Warrior's Sons symbolize the Others in the same way the KG do. the Warrior's Sons wear mirror-like reflective armor, and their sigil is a crystal sword on a field of black - a great match for the Others who wield swords of crystal at night. Warrior's Sons have a star shaped crystal in the pommels of their swords, which parallels the icy sword Dawn, and it's constellation which has a diamond in the hilt. Finally, the NK was supposedly a warrior who knew no fear. When he made others with the NQ, he was making pale shadows with mirror armor and crystal swords - warrior's sons.

All of these ideas go together, because they all show the same pattern. A dragon king, guarded by white shadows.

341-350

#341 sweetsunray                    

Posted Today, 11:41 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Okay, I had not even considered that.  They could find only the shield, hanging in a tree, right? But we don't know who it was returned to, or even if it was.  The "mystery" shield?  They would have taken it to Aerys.  

The loss of a shield to a monster like Aerys.  I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that the "abduction" was a rescue from Aerys.  

Any thoughts on this?  I'm flummoxed.

The Knight's armor was an amalgam of stuff. It suggests the Starks got pieces of armor together from different knights. Actually it suggests that whomever was the knight, was actually helped and backed by more than the Starks alone. And Ned danced with Ashara during the feast, after his brother coaxed her into asking him. Could the shield they borrowed for the KofLT have been Arthur's?

 

#342 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Today, 11:45 AM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Not necessarily, and also try to remember that it's fiction and the meteors did exactly as much damage as Martin needed them too. You should probably stay away from making declarative pronouncements about hypotheticals in a fantasy fiction environment. If Martin wants to make moon meteors land on Planetos, he can quite easily do so and yes, there is still a story. A good story, as a matter of fact, and one which pays homage to Lovecraft and his magically toxic black meteors.

Julia's point still remains - how do they even have a notion of so many moon's turns equalling one year if they never had years? And regardless of what you think about moons exploding, the Long Night seems to be a one of a kind weather-related disaster which occurred eight thousand years ago, so the idea that the seasons were messed up at this time seems fairly likely. The Long Night is basically defined by is disruption to the natural order of days and seasons, whatever caused it.

Your accusing me of making declarative announcements about a fantasy after this:

"Well, moons don’t really just wander off into the sun, and our solar warrior’s sword is a comet.  This is the second major part of my hypothesis: the second moon was destroyed by a fiery comet that appeared to be coming from the sun."

Come on LML really???You are behaving as if your are the author saying whay he needed and didn't need.That isn't your place to say.You are putting forth something.Next based on the above you are going to tell me "Well Martin needed a Comet to come from the Sun" It don't work like that.I'm following in the vein you set questioning your assertion that a second moon was destroyed by a Comet from the Sun being the cause of seasons being wacky.

Julia says the WB implied that the seasons were balanced .That isn't entirely true .One Maester put it forth .I'm not saying Julia is wrong in what she's saying we actually agree.I'm saying in the context of human memory most likely not because we have yet to hear or see how things were and how far back via the Weirwoods.They are the data base for the land.We will know then.That's why i'm saying its perceptive and contextual.

There is a contradiction or maybe not depending on what the purpose is between the WB and the main text and it may be an oversight or maybe not .And or there determination has to do with them making the choice that so many moons turns equall 1 year and it may not be uniformed.How do i know this for certain? Because of this quote:

" Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predct the length and the change of the season,all efforts have been confounded...............Based on his work on the movement of the stars in the firmament ,Nicol argues unconvinigly that the seasons might one have been of a regular length,determined soley by the way the globe faces the Sun in it heveanly course.The notion behind it seems true enough-thet the lengthning and shortening of days ,if more regular,would have led to a more reular season-but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales WB pg 11.side bar.

The regularity is theirs, its like the difference between the Mayan Calender,islamic,Bhuddist versus the Gregorian and Julian.From the WB what is clear are the bolded.So what does the above  tell us LML?

To me it says:

1.They are still unable to predict the length and change.He flat out says it's still messing with them.That's a big deal.So if they aren't sure they are   everyone and they to caught up in everyday life to care.

2.The Solar idea was probably the best idea they had but alas they nixed that.

3.using the Moon in this case is problematic as you can see by point one.

        

#343 Sly Wren

Posted Today, 11:52 AM

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

The Knight's armor was an amalgam of stuff. It suggests the Starks got pieces of armor together from different knights. Actually it suggests that whomever was the knight, was actually helped and backed by more than the Starks alone. And Ned danced with Ashara during the feast, after his brother coaxed her into asking him. Could the shield they borrowed for the KofLT have been Arthur's?

Okay. I have about 5 minutes, so was just going to check in and answer later, but I can't resist.

The amalgam of armor--that seems so obvious now you say it. This would have to have been a group project.

Throw in why Meera is telling the story--the power of the old gods to lend strength in time of need. The "old gods" are an amalgam. And the Long Night was not defeated by old gods but by a collective of humans. The wolfpack worked together to help the Crannogman. A story of unity and faith.

Which would also work with the Daynes' helping out. The info we have from Jaime portrays Aruthur as a protector. If asked to help another defend and assert himself--the minimal info we have on Arthur seems very consistent with this. 

 

 #344 LmL               

Posted Today, 12:49 PM

wolfmaid7, on 04 Oct 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Your accusing me of making declarative announcements about a fantasy after this:
 
"Well, moons dont really just wander off into the sun, and our solar warriors sword is a comet.  This is the second major part of my hypothesis: the second moon was destroyed by a fiery comet that appeared to be coming from the sun."
 
 
Come on LML really???You are behaving as if your are the author saying whay he needed and didn't need.That isn't your place to say.You are putting forth something.Next based on the above you are going to tell me "Well Martin needed a Comet to come from the Sun" It don't work like that.I'm following in the vein you set questioning your assertion that a second moon was destroyed by a Comet from the Sun being the cause of seasons being wacky.

Do you understand the meaning of "declarative statement?" Because I'm not making a declarative statement about the novel - I said the next part of my "hypothesis" is that a comet destroyed the moon, and that it appeared to be coming from the sun. (I went on to explain just how I think it would have looked this way, I don't know, perhaps you didn't read that far.) As for moons not wandering into suns, that's real life we are talking - and that's true - moons don't just wander into suns on their own. You yourself agreed it would take an outside force to make this happen, and that's all I am saying. Moon don't just "wander into suns," so there is likely another part of the equation.... And of course the AA story has that conspicuous flaming sword, which is compared to a comet, so...

So no, I'm not making a declarative statement - I'm building a hypothesis. I'm not speaking for the author, by any means - I don't even know why you would suggest that. It's called a hypothesis, and I labelled it as such. You however made the declarative statement that if a moon exploded and rained down meteors, there wouldn't be a story. That's not necessarily the case. By any means. Especially in a fantasy fiction environment.

I think it's a mistake of to think in terms of "what Martin needs" or doesn't need. He doesn't need anything, it's fiction. It's never about what he needs, but what he was written. You for example threw out the solar flare idea - that's a great idea on its own, and one I thought of, but Martin does not talk about solar flares, he talks about comets and shooting stars. Lightbringer is compared to the comet, not to solar flares. If Azor Ahai is the sun and Nissa Nissa the moon, George is telling us the sun stabbed the moon with a flaming sword. The comet is the only celestial body compared to a flaming sword, and this comparison is made many times. Ergo, strictly interpreting the text, we have a sun stabbing a moon with a comet, if we have anything celestial going on here. Trying to make a solar flare work would be "forcing it," to use your phrase, because Martin doesn't mention a solar flare or try to describe one. So it's not about logic or what we think Martin needs, but instead about what he has written. Just like with the Horned God stuff - the exact real word definitions do not matter as much as the way Martin has chosen to depict the idea.

Although it's true that we modern folks know that a comet is not actually on fire, but it appears to be so from the earth, especially before the advent of modern science. The comet we see in the story is described as a flaming or bloody sword, and is associated with the "warrior of fire." So "in the story," comets are seen as fiery and they are associated with fire. That's the first part of the comet coming from the sun.

The second part is the eclipse alignment. When the myth says the moon wandered too close to the sun, one way this may be true is if the moon was in eclipse formation when it was destroyed - this would create the image of a moon bathing in the sun's fire at the moment of death. It would look like the moon got too close to the sun and cracked. It would also make the sun look like it was holding the comet out like a sword at the moment of impact.

Third point, it would also create the image of a fiery eye - the God's Eye. There is a lot of text which I feel confirms that this is indeed what the God's Eye concept refers to, which is an entire essay's worth of material. Suffice it to say it is all interpretation of text and none of it speculation based on what I think Martin "needs." You keep mentioning this idea of what he needs or doesn't need, but I don't operate that way. In any case, the Hammer of the Waters was supposedly called down from the God's Eye, and I think it was, celestially at least, because I think the Hammer of the Waters was a sun-spear, a bloodstone moon meteor, and it came from the God's Eye sun / moon alignment. This is also what Martin is getting at with his "stabbing the dragon Urrax in one eye with a spear" story of Serwyn and the Mirror Shield, as well as many of his other one-eyed people and especially seers. Of course in ancient Egypt, the sun and moon were viewed as the eyes of Horus, so George is not wandering far from established ideas here. George refers to the moon as an eye on several occasions, and he also gives us Euron Crow's Eye's sigil, a red eye with a black pupil (the Gods Eye image).

From my point of view, the sun-moon eclipse alignment is confirmed by these three different angles, and it is the only thing I can see that makes all these ideas work together. It's not about what Martin "needs," but about what he is telling us, and he seems to be telling us the moon got close to the sun and was stabbed by a fiery comet sword. Comets are described as fiery, and if the moon was in front of the sun when the comet hit, the sun would appear to stabbing the moon with a fiery comet - and that's how I interpret the Azor Ahai story, celestially. It's the tightest interpretation of the myth that I can make.

The "bloody sword" double entendre is well set up in the books - it can be a sword bloodied in killing or a penis which has deflowered a maiden. Those are (in my opinion as well as Schmendrick's and many others) the two meanings of the Lightbringer legend. It's about a "fire dragon" (the translation of "Azor Ahai" in Vedic Sanskrit) killing his wife to perform blood magic and create a flaming sword, but it's also about a dragon king impregnating a moon maiden with dragon seed, and about that mother dying in childbirth (as the mothers of actual Targaryens tend to do). George has taken the time to create the dragon associations with the sun and comet, and the "mother of dragons" association with moon maidens (Daenerys in particular, of course), so I don't think it's that convoluted to see AA as the sun, the moon as Nissa Nissa, and Lightbringer as the comet.... All of these associations are directly presented by the text, imo, and fit perfectly with the themes of the story (again IMO).

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Julia says the WB implied that the seasons were balanced .That isn't entirely true .One Maester put it forth .I'm not saying Julia is wrong in what she's saying we actually agree.I'm saying in nthe context of human memory most likely not because we have yet to hear or see how things were and how far back via the Weirwoods.They are the data base for the land.I'm saying theorethically they are determining it some way probably Lunar "by some" or other means.
 
There is a contradiction or maybe not depending on what the purpose is between the WB and the main text and it may be an oversight or maybe not .And or there determination has to do with them making the choice that so many moons turns equall 1 year and it may not be uniformed.How do i know this for certain? Because of this quote:
 
" Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predct the length and the change of the season,all efforts have been confounded...............Based on his work on the movement of the stars in the firmament ,Nicol argues unconvinigly that the seasons might one have been of a regular length,determined soley by the way the globe faces the Sun in it heveanly course.The notion behind it seems true enough-thet the lengthning and shortening of days ,if more regular,would have led to a more reular season-but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales WB pg 11.side bar.
 
 
 
The regularity is theirs its like the difference between the Mayan Calender,islamic,Bhuddist versus the Gregorian and Julian.From the WB what is clear are the bolded.So what does that tell us LML?
 
To me it says:
1.They are still unable to predict the length and change.That's a big deal
2.The Solar idea was probably the best idea they had but alas they nixed that idea
3.using the Moon in this case is problematic as you can see by point one.

Not sure what you're getting at with this last bit, but we know the moon is regular from Arya's time in the HOBW, where she spends 27 days out and about and 3 during the black of the moon back at the HOBW. That makes a lunar month 30 days on Planetos, and Martin has also said that Planetos takes about the same time to go around the sun as earth does, so it's very likely we have a year counted as 12 moons... I'm not sure if that idea is corroborated elsewhere (perhaps we should ask Rhaenys Targaryen), but it may be, because they talk about "during the third moon of AL 163" or whatever.

What they cannot predict is when the seasons will change, and how long they will last.

Again, nobody knows for certain if the days were ever regular, but I think it's more likely than not, and the possibility is certainly implied in the Wordlbook. If the seasons were once regular, then the likely culprit for the fuck up would have to be the Long Night, with was a global cataclysm which had to do with a violation of the natural cycles of the days and seasons.

ETA: you also said the season were not likely to have been regular in human memory, but the TWOIAF passage you quoted clearly says " but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales." Which means there are ancient (human) tales of regular seasons.

        

#345 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 03:43 PM

Sly Wren, on 04 Oct 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Okay. I have about 5 minutes, so was just going to check in and answer later, but I can't resist.
 
The amalgam of armor--that seems so obvious now you say it. This would have to have been a group project.
 
Throw in why Meera is telling the story--the power of the old gods to lend strength in time of need. The "old gods" are an amalgam. And the Long Night was not defeated by old gods but by a collective of humans. The wolfpack worked together to help the Crannogman. A story of unity and faith.
 
Which would also work with the Daynes' helping out. The info we have from Jaime portrays Aruthur as a protector. If asked to help another defend and assert himself--the minimal info we have on Arthur seems very consistent with this.

I like this too, especially if it was on behalf of Howland Reed, who I believe is much more than a small man who likes to eat frogs - he is the nexus, the blend, the counsellor, the movement behind this. It's like there was an initial pact going on between all of them. The wolf pack, the Daynes - Ashara Starfall, Arthur Quiet Isle, the Green Men(that's who Howland prayed to for help), Howland of Graywatch himself - well there are 5 of the 7 FQ island reflections right there. Missing Hightower and Tully.

This is kind of exciting. I think we've got a "green knight". It was spring. I have to brush up. Will post on this later too.

 

#346 wolfmaid7                 

Posted Today, 03:54 PM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Quote

Do you understand the meaning of "declarative statement?" Because I'm not making a declarative statement about the novel - I said the next part of my "hypothesis" is that a comet destroyed the moon, and that it appeared to be coming from the sun. (I went on to explain just how I think it would have looked this way, I don't know, perhaps you didn't read that far.) As for moons not wandering into suns, that's real life we are talking - and that's true - moons don't just wander into suns on their own. You yourself agreed it would take an outside force to make this happen, and that's all I am saying. Moon don't just "wander into suns," so there is likely another part of the equation.... And of course the AA story has that conspicuous flaming sword, which is compared to a comet, so...

So no, I'm not making a declarative statement - I'm building a hypothesis. I'm not speaking for the author, by any means - I don't even know why you would suggest that. It's called a hypothesis, and I labelled it as such. You however made the declarative statement that if a moon exploded and rained down meteors, there wouldn't be a story. That's not necessarily the case. By any means. Especially in a fantasy fiction environment.

Oh my gosh this is long dude your killing me  .....I never accused you of making a declartive statement about the novel.The tone of the Moon comment is what threw me off ,i see what you are saying now.Now if i remember correctly and i'm using Mel's and Sallador Saan's info on AA,and i may be misremembering LB is never compared to a comet.Can you show the text for that? I know that the comet was referred to by the Citadel as "the sword that slays the seasons" but more so it was something different to different people.Which was also my point about AA being the same thing. The Red comet was also the Red sword, Mormon't torch,the red messenger,the bleeding star ,dragon's tail,companion to the birth of kings etc.There is no pattern in verse.Real life it is most often a herald of bad shit about to happen.

My statement wasn't a declaration i was intentionally blowing out of porportion.Ofcourse they'd be a story.And let's not forget that while GRRM's story is fantasy it is not Epic or High fantasy. It has alot of realism involved. 

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I think it's a mistake of to think in terms of "what Martin needs" or doesn't need. He doesn't need anything, it's fiction. It's never about what he needs, but what he was written. You for example threw out the solar flare idea - that's a great idea on its own, and one I thought of, but Martin does not talk about solar flares, he talks about comets and shooting stars. Lightbringer is compared to the comet, not to solar flares. If Azor Ahai is the sun and Nissa Nissa the moon, George is telling us the sun stabbed the moon with a flaming sword. The comet is the only celestial body compared to a flaming sword, and this comparison is made many times. Ergo, strictly interpreting the text, we have a sun stabbing a moon with a comet, if we have anything celestial going on here. Trying to make a solar flare work would be "forcing it," to use your phrase, because Martin doesn't mention a solar flare or try to describe one. So it's not about logic or what we think Martin needs, but instead about what he has written. Just like with the Horned God stuff - the exact real word definitions do not matter as much as the way Martin has chosen to depict the idea.

I wasn't actually suggesting the solar flare idea i said it makes more sense scientifically..No one in this story has and would know to pull that lingo and they won't be able to see it anyway.I will await where the bolded comes from as i said i may have missed it.It is compared to a sword no more or less than any other name made up for it. But i want to see where it is compared to LB.

And i will being up the Horned god again,Bapomet has a character and essence that define him and it is not like the others.So the theme you follow will not be the same.If you want to call him a horned god fine,but know that he has nothing to do with cycles.He has to do with alchemy,magic seeking higher knowledge,enlightenment.Which is all i was saying.

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Although it's true that we modern folks know that a comet is not actually on fire, but it appears to be so from the earth, especially before the advent of modern science. The comet we see in the story is described as a flaming or bloody sword, and is associated with the "warrior of fire." So "in the story," comets are seen as fiery and they are associated with fire. That's the first part of the comet coming from the sun.

And a torch,dragon's tail,messenger,herald.This is where the leap is happening for me strictly speaking because its description is varied and not unique.

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The second part is the eclipse alignment. When the myth says the moon wandered too close to the sun, one way this may be true is if the moon was in eclipse formation when it was destroyed - this would create the image of a moon bathing in the sun's fire at the moment of death. It would look like the moon got too close to the sun and cracked. It would also make the sun look like it was holding the comet out like a sword at the moment of impact. 

More or less i got no issues with this.

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Third point, it would also create the image of a fiery eye - the God's Eye. There is a lot of text which I feel confirms that this is indeed what the God's Eye concept refers to, which is an entire essay's worth of material. Suffice it to say it is all interpretation of text and none of it speculation based on what I think Martin "needs." You keep mentioning this idea of what he needs or doesn't need, but I don't operate that way. In any case, the Hammer of the Waters was supposedly called down from the God's Eye, and I think it was, celestially at least, because I think the Hammer of the Waters was a sun-spear, a bloodstone moon meteor, and it came from the God's Eye sun / moon alignment. This is also what Martin is getting at with his "stabbing the dragon Urrax in one eye with a spear" story of Serwyn and the Mirror Shield, as well as many of his other one-eyed people and especially seers. Of course in ancient Egypt, the sun and moon were viewed as the eyes of Horus, so George is not wandering far from established ideas here. George refers to the moon as an eye on several occasions, and he also gives us Euron Crow's Eye's sigil, a red eye with a black pupil (the Gods Eye image).

"Not necessarily, and also try to remember that it's fiction and the meteors did exactly as much damage as Martin needed them too.LML Post 342"

The above quote by you is what i was responding to.The God's eye doesn't neccessarily mean it was something celestial and this is just another interpretation.In Egyptian myth and Kemetism it meant sacrifice needed to ward and protect.In this case it could mean just that seeing what the COTF had to do to accomplish these types of magic...Sacrifice.The WB says they killed men and even their own young and offered them to the trees to do these magics.So i don't think George has strayed from that theme in the books.So you are right he hasn't strayed but again what is the meaning of the eye?Does it 'corespond' to what we see happening before our eyes?

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From my point of view, the sun-moon eclipse alignment is confirmed by these three different angles, and it is the only thing I can see that makes all these ideas work together. It's not about what Martin "needs," but about what he is telling us, and he seems to be telling us the moon got close to the sun and was stabbed by a fiery comet sword. Comets are described as fiery, and if the moon was in front of the sun when the comet hit, the sun would appear to stabbing the moon with a fiery comet - and that's how I interpret the Azor Ahai story, celestially. It's the tightest interpretation of the myth that I can make.

Again the needs thing is what you brought up,i was only responding to that comment by YOU.Yes across the board Comet and firery is a unique pairing.Show me Comet and LB is the same thing.

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The "bloody sword" double entendre is well set up in the books - it can be a sword bloodied in killing or a penis which has deflowered a maiden. Those are (in my opinion as well as Schmendrick's and many others) the two meanings of the Lightbringer legend. It's about a "fire dragon" (the translation of "Azor Ahai" in Vedic Sanskrit) killing his wife to perform blood magic and create a flaming sword, but it's also about a dragon king impregnating a moon maiden with dragon seed, and about that mother dying in childbirth (as the mothers of actual Targaryens tend to do). George has taken the time to create the dragon associations with the sun and comet, and the "mother of dragons" association with moon maidens (Daenerys in particular, of course), so I don't think it's that convoluted to see AA as the sun, the moon as Nissa Nissa, and Lightbringer as the comet.... All of these associations are directly presented by the text, imo, and fit perfectly with the themes of the story (again IMO).

And that cool for you and Scmendrick's and many others i don't know why that would matter.Many others view LB as the Wall,Watch Dany's dragons.The latter for Dany In Hebrew Azor means 'helper' he actually shows up in the bible as an ancestor to Jesus and Ahai is a Marathi name that means 'mother".So again its open to interpretation on who AA/LB can be.

Where do you get that "Mothers of Targs tend to die in CB from"? If we are going by what we know as fact,then we have Dany and that's it. Rhaegella had how many miscarriages and still borns ? Alot, that's a trend,Dany had a stillborn continues the trend and Rhaenys from TPATQ had a stillborn still a trend. So far in terms of Mother of Targs dying in CB we only have Rhaegella.Is that not a fair statement?

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Not sure what you're getting at with this last bit, but we know the moon is regular from Arya's time in the HOBW, where she spends 27 days out and about and 3 during the black of the moon back at the HOBW. That makes a lunar month 30 days on Planetos, and Martin has also said that Planetos takes about the same time to go around the sun as earth does, so it's very likely we have a year counted as 12 moons... I'm not sure if that idea is corroborated elsewhere (perhaps we should ask Rhaenys Targaryen), but it may be, because they talk about "during the third moon of AL 163" or whatever.

If you say Martin says otherwise then i'll take your word for it.Though from Bran's POV in the cave and maybe Howland's on the IOF that's out the door because time is doing some wonky crap and i think that answer lay in Fae lore.

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What they cannot predict is when the seasons will change, and how long they will last.

Still the same problem so what do they do? When do they decide Summer has ended and Winter is coming.When the last ear of corn is harvested  And is it a consensus among the Maesters?

Quote

Again, nobody knows for certain if the days were ever regular, but I think it's more likely than not, and the possibility is certainly implied in the Wordlbook. If the seasons were once regular, then the likely culprit for the fuck up would have to be the Long Night, with was a global cataclysm which had to do with a violation of the natural cycles of the days and seasons.

ETA: you also said the season were not likely to have been regular in human memory, but the TWOIAF passage you quoted clearly says " but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case beyond the most ancient tales." Which means there are ancient (human) tales of regular seasons.

I disagree on the LN being the cause it is a symptom of whatever act was done.The human memory as i stated is in the context of now.SlyWren and i were speaking this.Current day characters in the story have no inkling of what that means or what it could mean to have a balance.These assholes are praying for a summer that won't end.Not realizing it would be just as bad as a Winter that won't end.This all comes back to one of GRRM's favorite quote from Faulkner about the human condition,which centers around man in relation to his environment and others, be they similar or not.This is the fundamental problem. Man in himself isn't balance so his environment isn't and to me this lay with the greenseers who have the power to enact change in this way.Nothing can be done about a moon that may or may not have been there.

So to reiterate i'm speaking in the context of what's going on story terms and i'm speaking 8,000 years ago to present there may never have been a balance the whole the wolrd begining from chaos myth.You and i talked about the Greenseers and they are coming into play.Why i put aside that theory of the whole second moon is that going forward that can't do anything to futher the story because a second moon isn't going to appear and make things balance again or for the first time in maybe the last 8,000.And that's tenative because as i said when and if  the view point of the trees come in via Bran we may know what really happened.

        

#347 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 04:28 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 2:43 PM, said:

I like this too, especially if it was on behalf of Howland Reed, who I believe is much more than a small man who likes to eat frogs - he is the nexus, the blend, the counsellor, the movement behind this. It's like there was an initial pact going on between all of them. The wolf pack, the Daynes - Ashara Starfall, Arthur Quiet Isle, the Green Men(that's who Howland prayed to for help), Howland of Graywatch himself - well there are 5 of the 7 FQ island reflections right there. Missing Hightower and Tully.

This is kind of exciting. I think we've got a "green knight". It was spring. I have to brush up. Will post on this later too.

Yup, there was some pact regarding showing those squires and the knights who were responsible for them a lesson, one Robert was excluded from... which is odd since he was Ned's best friend. But the amalgam of armor that must have come from a group effort, while Robert is excluded from it, therefore is for me the convincing evidence it must have been Lyanna as the knight. It's the sole reason I can think of that he would have excluded Robert from the group effort. Robert couldn't know that his bride to be was going to joust.

So, then we have Arthur and Ned fighting at the ToJ at opposites, with Lyanna (and her child) involved, and HR present. HR was the reason why Daynes and Starks united in teaching squires a lesson at HH, and somehow he must have resolved their opposing interests at the ToJ when only they were left. And the spring is heavily connotated to Lyanna. Lyanna as Persephone makes her first public appearance during a spring, that turns back to winter, once she's out of the public eye again and later abducted. And in Ned's memory the spring symbolism he uses are all cultivation symbols: green green grass, pollen and wine. More Persephone symbols.

        

#348 LmL                

Posted Today, 04:50 PM

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 3:28 PM, said:

Yup, there was some pact regarding showing those squires and the knights who were responsible for them a lesson, one Robert was excluded from... which is odd since he was Ned's best friend. But the amalgam of armor that must have come from a group effort, while Robert is excluded from it, therefore is for me the convincing evidence it must have been Lyanna as the knight. It's the sole reason I can think of that he would have excluded Robert from the group effort. Robert couldn't know that his bride to be was going to joust.

So, then we have Arthur and Ned fighting at the ToJ at opposites, with Lyanna (and her child) involved, and HR present. HR was the reason why Daynes and Starks united in teaching squires a lesson at HH, and somehow he must have resolved their opposing interests at the ToJ when only they were left. And the spring is heavily connotated to Lyanna. Lyanna as Persephone makes her first public appearance during a spring, that turns back to winter, once she's out of the public eye again and later abducted. And in Ned's memory the spring symbolism he uses are all cultivation symbols: green green grass, pollen and wine. More Persephone symbols.

I've following this part of the conversation and I just wanted to say most of it makes sense to me. In particular, the idea that so many different characters are showing various "symptoms" of being "Azor Ahai reborn" seems to fit with the whole "patchwork armor" concept. For a while now, I've been reading the 'multiple candidates for AA reborn' thing as indicating that we will needed many people to "save the day" or "avert disaster" or whatever George's idea of a bittersweet ending is. To put it blunt, that's simply more realistic, more true to life. Success almost always comes from teamwork. Martin is always striving for this kind of realism, even inside of a fantastical context, imo. He makes the whole thing believable because the characters do things that humans would do... and it just seems inevitable that many people will have a part to play. Even characters like Ramsay Bolton Snow will be there to play the "Gollum" role or something like that... unwittingly moving things along, somewhere. 

        

#349 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 05:07 PM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 3:50 PM, said:

I've following this part of the conversation and I just wanted to say most of it makes sense to me. In particular, the idea that so many different characters are showing various "symptoms" of being "Azor Ahai reborn" seems to fit with the whole "patchwork armor" concept. For a while now, I've been reading the 'multiple candidates for AA reborn' thing as indicating that we will needed many people to "save the day" or "avert disaster" or whatever George's idea of a bittersweet ending is. To put it blunt, that's simply more realistic, more true to life. Success almost always comes from teamwork. Martin is always striving for this kind of realism, even inside of a fantastical context, imo. He makes the whole thing believable because the characters do things that humans would do... and it just seems inevitable that many people will have a part to play. Even characters like Ramsay Bolton Snow will be there to play the "Gollum" role or something like that... unwittingly moving things along, somewhere. 

Yes, even the most foul actions we see happen have their part. Sly Wren and I were just discussing the direwolves as Underworld creatures with regards to several things I put forward and put emphasis on in my OP of the Lyanna as Persephone thread. By following how Ned is impacted by Lyanna from beyond the grave and the crypts Underworld, we end his last POV in the dungeons, another Underworld. More importantly George handed us Ned's curse on several characters on a platter, straight up. We've been pourong over the ToJ dreams, HH tourney story, HotU prophecies, Jaime's dream... but the location (Underworld) + Lord Stark of Winterfell and how much the Starks have the Underworld as a playground where they are the most powerful makes Ned's judgement and curse in the dungeons perhaps one of the most significant and ominous prediction for several characters in the story. All the Stark children will draw their power and impact through the Underworld. Sly Wren's first OP was how Jon needs to travel to the Underworld. Ned and Lyanna do it too as I have shown in my own OP, and it supports Jon as a very important underworld traveler, one of the few who can retrieve people from the Underworld with success (a Dionysus - divine child, torch bearer, the light in the night). Robb in the last phase of his life starts to take a step back from this Underworld power - he leaves Greywind outside. He's a Stark in name, but without his Underworld connection he loses his vital connection to power. And what do the Freys do? They conjoin Robb back with Greywind. It doesn't even matter whether his body is in the crypts or not. As Ygritte tells Jon - all the underworlds are connected somehow. As a soul Robb-Greywind can go anywhere. And this is shown to us with Theon dreaming of Robb entering the hall during the feast of the dead even long before Robb's dead.  An underworld Lord with a wolf's head... Could the Freys have made him any more powerful than that?

        

#350 LmL

Posted Today, 06:03 PM

Wolmaid, thanks for your response. I'll try to be succinct.

I brought up the topic of making declarative statements specifically in regards to ruling things out very quickly and definitively. Such as when you said this at the end of your comment:

Quote

Why i put aside that theory of the whole second moon is that going forward that can't do anything to futher the story because a second moon isn't going to appear and make things balance again or for the first time in maybe the last 8,000

The problem is that you are declaring that this idea is a non-starter because you can't imagine a way for it to further the current plot, basically saying that the moon reappearing would be the only way to fix things. But of course Martin may well have thought of something you have not, and if you rule the idea out because the you can't immediately put all the pieces together, you may miss out on what he is doing. I have what I think I have a decent hypothesis about this, which I've tried to explain, but the point here just to not be so quick tot rule things out... I always say "you gotta follow the text," even if it does not make sense at first. 

The moon cracks in the Nissa Nissa story, and it cracks in the origin of dragons story. In one story, a burning sword is created, and in the other, fiery dragons are created. Both dragons and burning sword have been compared directly to the comet. The three things share common symbolism, and so I say that they are "symbolically interchangeable." For this symbolic purpose, comets and falling meteors or shooting stars are all considered to be the same thing. As you say, the comet is compared to many things - a burning sword, yes, and dragons as well - these are all what I would call "manifestations" of Lightbringer. Lightbringer is a sword, a torch, a messenger, a season slayer, the dragons, a person or people (such as the NW), or even the Wall - they are all symbolically interchangeable for Lightbringer. This is all in my first essay, or at leafs the new version of it, which is the first link in my signature. 

In any case, the idea is that both stories which have the moon cracking involved produce things which symbolically interchangeable with each other - dragons (which I think are meteors), and a bloody, flaming red sword. If you place the sun in the role of Azor Ahai (which I think the text supports), and Nissa Nissa in the role of the moon (ditto), then the stories kind of match, because Lightbringer is symbolically a match for both dragons, meteors/comets, and flaming swords. I'll put that text in just a second.

When we hear a story that a moon cracked and dragons poured forth, drinking the sun's fire and breathing flame, that should really think make us think of a meteor shower, because falling meteors and comets have both been seen as dragons in mythology from both sides of the world, from Japan and China to South America. They are flying objects that breathe fire and make a big BANG when they land, so you can see why they were described in mythological terms as dragons. Chinese dragons are very fish-like and usually shown to be swimming in the ocean, half submersed, because they lie along the ocean and had to worry about meteors landing in the ocean and causing tsunamis... these are your "sea dragons." The Grey King slew a sea dragon which drown islands - that's a falling meteor detonation we are talking about.

As for the direct comparison between the comet and Lightbringer:

It was splendid and scary all at once. “The red sword,” the bull named it.  He claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge.  When Arya squinted the right way, she could see the sword too, only it wasn’t a new sword, it was Ice, her father’s great sword, all ripply Valyrian steel and the red was Lord Eddard’s blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King’s Justice had cut off his head.

We have three different ideas which match Lightbringer here: a red sword, it's a sword fresh from the forge, and sword covered in blood. I think Ned's Ice is also used to symbolize Lightbringer in other passages, but that's a different line of inquiry so I'll skip over that for now.  Point is, the comet is a red sword associated with blood sacrifice.

And specifically, associated with Azor Ahai:

“Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire.  In him the prophecies are fulfilled.  The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”  (ACOK, Davos)

“I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy.  When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

You'll notice that red comet is associated, over and over again, with blood AND fire, as in the first paragraph, the sword was either red with blood or red with fire; in the second, the red comet blazes to signal the coming of AA, warrior of fire, but in the third, also a quote from Mel, it's now a "bleeding star" that signals AA's return. Thrown in the at the end is the idea of "waking dragons from stone," which I would say refers to both stone dragons eggs producing fire dragons as well as stone meters which are described or perceived as dragons. Lightbringer's forging produces dragon meteors, according to my theory, and AA wakes dragons from stone... it's all the same concept, imo. 

As you mentioned, the comet is compared to many things - and all of them have to do with Lightbringer's original forging and the correlating moon destruction / Long Night disaster. It's the sword that slays the season because it literally slew the cycle of the seasons, causing a semi-permanent state of winter and night time. It's the messenger because it's the herald of AA's return, and because everyone sees it as some kind of omen. Of course I've already been talking about how Lightbringer has to do with dragons and flaming swords both. Even the Tully fish with a tail - that's just a sea dragon. There's a whole thing about dragons and fish, which I explored in this essay if you are curious. Lightbringer is surely a torch, as it lights the way (supposedly) and lifts the darkness of the Long Night (again, supposedly), and the head of the NW might be the right person to be holding the "torch" or lighting the way with a flaming sword, as the LH did. 

More blood and fire equivalencies and comet = dragons = flamings swords stuff:

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet … old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets.  (ACOK, Prologue)

The red of the comet is the same red as blood, fire, and sunset - and I think "sunset" here describes the Long Night, the ultimate setting of the sun. Again, slaying the seasons as well as being a messenger, and associated with blood and fire. Of course this scene is at dragonstone, where there is much talk of stone dragons and waking dragons form stone. 

From the same chapter, the prologue of ACOK.. the first sentence of the book, actually, so you know it is important:

The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky.

What makes a red slash? A sword. This sword slashes open the very sky - what does that sound like? And look, dragonstone, which I am of course proposing is a symbol for "flaming stone meteors" perceived as dragons. Quotes like this support this idea, I believe:

A night wind whispered through the great windows, sharp with the smell of the sea.  Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Above, the comet blazed red and malevolent.

These associations appear repeatedly - falling stars, the comet, torches, dragon-stones, because these are all essentially sharing the same symbolism. They are different manifestations of the same idea (that's my hypothesis). 

More comets, dragons, and flaming swords:

“Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing.  She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it.  “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted.  (ACOK, Bran)

“When your dragons were small, they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.”

“Your wolves have more sense than your maester,” the wildling woman said.  “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.”  The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”  (ACOK, Bran)

"Blood" and "Fire" are of course the words of House  Targaryen, the blood of the dragon, but blood and fire are also the main components of Lightbringer.  Specifically, as with the dragonbinder horn, it was "blood for fire." Coat the sword with blood to light it on fire, as Beric also did. That's why the comet is compared to all things blood and fire, because all of this has to do with Lightbringer. 

Jhogo spied it first.  “There,” he said in a hushed voice.  Dany looked and saw it, low in the east.  The first star was a comet, burning red.  Bloodred; fire red; the dragon’s tail.  She could not have asked for a stronger sign.  (AGOT, Daenerys)

Red comet = blood red = fire red = dragons.  

The bleeding star was supposed to herald Azor Ahai's rebirth, when he walked dragons from stone. Here, it signaled Dany's rebirth and her waking dragons from stone eggs. And this entire event mirrors the moon cracking in the sun's fire to pour forth dragons. Dany is the moon of Drogo's life, and Drogo her sun and stars. In the fire of the sun, the moon steps, and is reborn amidst blood and fire to wake dragons from stone.  This also reinforces the idea that the "origin of dragons / moon cracking" story is meant to be associated with the Lightbringer story, because the Dany scene matches both. 

As we discussed, a bloody sword is also an impregnating penis - and Drago gave Dany this bloody sword on the night of her wedding, when she received the dragon eggs. This was her impregnation on two levels. When she woke the dragons from stone, most think Rhaego (drogo's seed) was part of the sacrifice which enabled the waking f dragons, and then the dragons took Rhaego's place as Dany's children (mother of dragons). So as you can see, first Drogo impregnates Dany with fiery seed as Dany receives her eggs, and then the waking of the dragons involved the literal death of the sun and the symbolic seat of the moon (maiden) in the solar pyre. 

I hope that makes something more clear.

A couple other questions you asked:

Mothers of Targs dying in childbirth: well, Jon Snow and Tyrion, duh! (heh heh). Of course I know you don't think Jon is tart but whatever, I had to mention it. If those theories are true, we have all three Targ heads of the dragon born of mothers who died in childbirth. But there have been others: Jeyne Westerling, wife of Maegor the cruel, Aemma Arryn, wife of Viserys I... that's all I can remember off the top of my head, but I feel like they may be more. 

Weagree thatt he Long Night is an effect, not a cause. I am suggesting that whatever caused the Long Night would be the obvious candidate for an event which could throw off the seasonal balance of Planetos, because it's a disaster which spanned at least half the globe and involved a screwing up of the seasonal cycle - prolonged winter.

 

351-360

#351 LmL             

Posted Today, 06:07 PM

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 4:07 PM, said:

Yes, even the most foul actions we see happen have their part. Sly Wren and I were just discussing the direwolves as Underworld creatures with regards to several things I put forward and put emphasis on in my OP of the Lyanna as Persephone thread. By following how Ned is impacted by Lyanna from beyond the grave and the crypts Underworld, we end his last POV in the dungeons, another Underworld. More importantly George handed us Ned's curse on several characters on a platter, straight up. We've been pourong over the ToJ dreams, HH tourney story, HotU prophecies, Jaime's dream... but the location (Underworld) + Lord Stark of Winterfell and how much the Starks have the Underworld as a playground where they are the most powerful makes Ned's judgement and curse in the dungeons perhaps one of the most significant and ominous prediction for several characters in the story. All the Stark children will draw their power and impact through the Underworld. Sly Wren's first OP was how Jon needs to travel to the Underworld. Ned and Lyanna do it too as I have shown in my own OP, and it supports Jon as a very important underworld traveler, one of the few who can retrieve people from the Underworld with success (a Dionysus - divine child, torch bearer, the light in the night). Robb in the last phase of his life starts to take a step back from this Underworld power - he leaves Greywind outside. He's a Stark in name, but without his Underworld connection he loses his vital connection to power. And what do the Freys do? They conjoin Robb back with Greywind. It doesn't even matter whether his body is in the crypts or not. As Ygritte tells Jon - all the underworlds are connected somehow. As a soul Robb-Greywind can go anywhere. And this is shown to us with Theon dreaming of Robb entering the hall during the feast of the dead even long before Robb's dead.  An underworld Lord with a wolf's head... Could the Freys have made him any more powerful than that?

This met have something to do with the way the direwlves are often depicted as hellhounds - like in Theon's dream where they smell of brimstone and have burning black blood, like a black dragon, or when Shaggy leaps out of the tomb like a guardian of the dead... and what about Simeon Star Eyes who went to the Wall to see the hellhounds fight? 

Also, they are hellhound gargoyles on Dragonstone. The only other gargoyles in Westeros are on the First Keep of Winterfell, which is above the crypts. But WF's gargoyles are too worn to make out... wanna bet they are hellhounds? 

        

#352 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 06:42 PM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 5:07 PM, said:

This met have something to do with the way the direwlves are often depicted as hellhounds - like in Theon's dream where they smell of brimstone and have burning black blood, like a black dragon, or when Shaggy leaps out of the tomb like a guardian of the dead... and what about Simeon Star Eyes who went to the Wall to see the hellhounds fight? 

Also, they are hellhound gargoyles on Dragonstone. The only other gargoyles in Westeros are on the First Keep of Winterfell, which is above the crypts. But WF's gargoyles are too worn to make out... wanna bet they are hellhounds? 

And they're curled up at the Kings of Winter's feet in the crypts, and in Ned's dream where he visits the crypts again (with Lya's statue weeping blood), the stone heads of those direwolves turn and snarl at him.

 

#353 LmL                

Posted Today, 06:56 PM

...right, and the main function of gargoyles is... warding. Which is one thing I thin kthe Kings of Winter AND the dire wolves are both doing. I'm pretty surer we have discussed the sword across the lap, which "even Bran knew what that meant." It means "GTFO or we set our wolves on you." 

Very interesting that the First Keep of Winterfell, which we know for a fact was built by the great Empire of the Dawn, is one of only two castles in Westeros which has gargoyles, along with Dragonstone, built by the descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn?

I'm totally kidding about knowing for a fact that Winterfell was built by the GEotD, I was just seeing if anyone was paying attention. I mean it to ally could have been, but we don't know that. I do think that someone should explain all the super-ancient round tower construction locations in Westeros, since that technology supposedly only came with the Andals. Most pre-Andal castles in Westeros are square tower design... except...

The First Keep.

Storm's End.

Pyke. 

And that's it. All three have mysterious origins, potentially dating back to the Long Night itself. 

But bringing it back to your specific underworld inquiry, it's interesting that there is that tie between WF's First Keep and Dragonstone via the gargoyles. I mentioned that the dragon skull chamber beneath KL and the WF crypts bear a resemblance in many ways... that's two dragon associated locations tied to WF, symbolically at least.

I don't want to derail, but I want to briefly mention / discuss the persistent fiery / hellish associations with WF.  We think of it as the capital of the North, but it's really a bulwark against the cold. It's where Winter fell, perhaps, as many say, and it is an oasis of warmth because of it's springs. We have hellhounds in their underworld, gargoyles on the First Keep, and Ned keeps a smokey-dark dragon-forged steel sword. Returning to the wolves, it's more than just the dream scenes where the wolves are especially depicted as fiery. The warmth of the wolves is often remarked upon, Summer especially. Their eyes are often fires or coals, much like the dragons and Melisandre. 

The combined imagery is this "King of Winter" who wields fire against the forces of winter, holding it back and thereby becoming "King" over it. He's not a "wintery king," but rather the "king over winter," and he himself has a fiery hellhounds, a dragon-sword, and castle which is an oasis of heat warmed by the fire of the earth... 

I just think it's an interesting way to think about the King of Winter. What do you make of that, Sweetsunray? I have my own dragon-related ideas but I want to hear your take. 

        

#354 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 07:24 PM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 5:56 PM, said:

...right, and the main function of gargoyles is... warding. Which is one thing I thin kthe Kings of Winter AND the dire wolves are both doing. I'm pretty surer we have discussed the sword across the lap, which "even Bran knew what that meant." It means "GTFO or we set our wolves on you." 

Very interesting that the First Keep of Winterfell, which we know for a fact was built by the great Empire of the Dawn, is one of only two castles in Westeros which has gargoyles, along with Dragonstone, built by the descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn?

I'm totally kidding about knowing for a fact that Winterfell was built by the GEotD, I was just seeing if anyone was paying attention. I mean it to ally could have been, but we don't know that.   I do think that someone should explain all the super-ancient round tower construction locations in Westeros, since that technology supposedly only came with the Andals. Most pre-Andal castles in Westeros are square tower design... except...

The First Keep.

Storm's End.

Pyke. 

And that's it. All three have mysterious origins, potentially dating back to the Long Night itself. 

But bringing it back to your specific underworld inquiry, it's interesting that there is that tie between WF's First Keep and Dragonstone via the gargoyles. I mentioned that the dragon skull chamber beneath KL and the WF crypts bear a resemblance in many ways... that's two dragon associated locations tied to WF, symbolically at least.

I don't want to derail, but I want to briefly mention / discuss the persistent fiery / hellish associations with WF.  We think of it as the capital of the North, but it's really a bulwark against the cold. It's where Winter fell, perhaps, as many say, and it is an oasis of warmth because of it's springs. We have hellhounds in their underworld, gargoyles on the First Keep, and Ned keeps a smokey-dark dragon-forged steel sword. Returning to the wolves, it's more than just the dream scenes where the wolves are especially depicted as fiery. The warmth of the wolves is often remarked upon, Summer especially. Their eyes are often fires or coals, much like the dragons and Melisandre. 

The combined imagery is this "King of Winter" who wields fire against the forces of winter, holding it back and thereby becoming "King" over it. He's not a "wintery king," but rather the "king over winter," and he himself has a fiery hellhounds, a dragon-sword, and castle which is an oasis of heat warmed by the fire of the earth... 

I just think it's an interesting way to think about the King of Winter. What do you make of that, Sweetsunray? I have my own dragon-related ideas but I want to hear your take. 

I like the Kings over Winter title  Cat remarks on Ned not liking heat so much, and opening the windows after their lovemaking and her jokes about why they have that warm water system to keep the castle warm then. But basically, people who are less affected by cold, are basically "hot blooded" people. They have a good body temperature regulation where they produce heat out of themselves already. Wolves have thick pelts and metabolism they can remain active even during lean times, so they don't hold a winter sleep (which ties back to the bear-wolf relation when bears need to hold a wintersleep, and wolves become the guardians of the forest life and balance). Basically they produce their own heat or are able to keep warm by themselves a-ok.

        

#355 Sly Wren                    

Posted Today, 07:47 PM

sweetsunray, on 03 Oct 2015 - 8:48 PM, said:

Direwolves are definitely established as an underworld creature. The Winterfell crypts are the first underworld we ever visit in the books: direwolves. I can prove that an other "underworld" we visit, even earlier than the crypts is Winterfell's godswood. But you won't realize it before reading the Winterfell crypt chapter. But basically Robert declares bogs and forests (all non-cultivated land) as part of a vast emptyness, and North, and far away, unseen, with no people... pretty much a world of the dead, in direct contrast of his "life" speech on the stairs down to the crypts. The crypts themselves establish silence as an underworld symbol. And that is also what the sisters treating the dead bodies use as a symbolic tie to the Stranger - silence of the silent sisters. So, knowing that, then go back to Cat's chapter approaching Ned who's cleaning the blood of Ice beside the heart tree and the dark, "cold", pool (cold is another symbol), and she specifically describes how the moss and grass dampens out all the sound. 

Hence, WF crypts and godswood = underworld. Where do Bran and Rickon keep the wolves? In the godswood.

Ned has a crypt dream, right before he's woken up to speak with Robert one last time before he dies, where he dreams he visits the crypts? And in that dream the stone direwolves turns their heads and snarl at him, and Lyanna's statue is weeping blood. 

1. Agreed--the direwolves are natural and supernatural, underworld and over world creatures in Martinlandia. They can move between both. Thrown in that Sansa is actually a corpse queen (Lady ate from her fingers "as delicately as a queen" in Sansa's first ever POV)--the direwolves cross those spaces easily.

2. Robert's noting the barrows and the emptiness of the North--interesting that he doesn't see the significance. The ties to the dead and the history. Robert is happy to throw of his old life for the indulgence of King's Landing. Ned--is Ned. The Starks are Starks. To go all the way back to my OP--Jon at the Wall is seeing the everything fall away until he's connected to the Battle for the Dawn, some 8,000 years (depending on preference) previous.

Ties to the dead--the real dead, vs. the undead--are powerful in this world. The Starks have a direct living link with their sigil. Robert doesn't learn any of the lessons of the past--thinks being king means he can do what he wants. vs. the lessons Ned teaches his kids--so, the direwolves tie the kids to safety in many more ways than one.

3. The direwolves' snarling at the Lord of Winterfell while Lyanna weeps--might go back to your idea of judgment in the underworld. Ned judges others, but also himself. An underworld is where one sees truth. And the direwolves show the kids a lot. Jon--since I'm technically supposed to be focusing on him--Ghost leads him to the stars. To see the Sword of the Morning. To the dragonglass at the Fist. To other things, too. Ned's seeing the direwolves--in a way, he's judging himself while being judged by the collective.

Julia H., on 04 Oct 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

Sly Wren, I think the KG and the direwolves are connected – both Ned and the members of the KG judge Jaime for what he did. Also, Jaime sees the KG in his dream as ghosts “armored in snow”, while Ghost, the direwolf, Jon Snow’s white “shadow”, serves as Jon’s Kingsguard – and Rhaegar reminds Jaime that he left his children in his hands to protect them.  

I agree.

And feel compelled to point out the white cloak tie to the KG that superunknown5 pointed out upthread re: Arthur.

Julia H., on 04 Oct 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

There has been quite convincing discussion that the place where Jaime ends up in that dream is probably under Winterfell (water + direwolves in a weirwood dream). It seems that Jaime, Jon and Theon dream different parts of the same dream. At the end of the dream, Jaime’s sword “went dark”. In Jon’s part of the dream (Jon is in the crypts, of course), a light has gone out somewhere. When the Kingsguard and Rhaegar appear, at first Jaime thinks it is Eddard Stark. Jon is looking for his father in the crypts. Jon means Ned, of course, but Ned is not there, either, but he appears in Theon’s dream (the feast with the dead), while Jon’s biological father appears to Jaime (this actually works with both Rhaegar and Arthur). Jaime thinks of direwolves as doom (cf. by what right does the wolf judge the lion?) and Jon sees a direwolf spotted with blood. I could go on because there is a lot more… It’s an exciting topic.

Interesting--might be able to buy the Jon and Jaime part of the argument. I'm not sure that Theon's dream is prophetic or visionary (for a few reasons). But it is interesting that they are all centering their morality around direwolves (Greywind, I think, in Jon's dream) and Ned. Makes me wonder if Jaime's life might have fared better had he been sent to Winterfell or the Eyrie for fostering. 

Julia H., on 04 Oct 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

BTW, Jaime can also expect a confrontation with Lady Stoneheart - a conflict involving water, "stone", the underworld, direwolves and the protection of children.

I agree--and am interested to see how it will go. Ned realized he had to sacrifice part of himself to save Sansa--ended up doing a lot more than that. Is there enough left of the original Cat to engage in self-sacrifice? Is there enough of the true mother? And is she enough of a direwolf, or will someone else be the "judge?" 

 

#356 Sly Wren                    

Posted Today, 08:03 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 12:48 AM, said:

I just wanted to make a point on Jahaerys and Alysanne.  I looked up Glastonbury since I last posted because I started to become convinced by my own theory that Winterfell was an Avalon version, but the Glastonbury one, where Arthur's bones are said to lie.  Get this - Edward I and his queen Eleanor (who were known to be devoted to one another over the course of her lifetime, and for the rest of his life too after she died even though he eventually married again - their relationship was considered exceptional for the times) travelled to Glastonbury in the 12th century - to move King Arthur's bones to a new resting place and a new tomb.  Eleanor was also known as a savvy businesswoman, frequently extending "gifts" but expecting payback in one way or another.  That is very likely why Yandel says the Lord of Winterfell seemed to oblige but wasn't happy - those lands technically became crownlands even though ostensibly the Night's Watch would be in control.  

But the key thing here is that they messed around with King Arthur's bones.  So the Last Hero might not be buried where we would expect - in the deepest reaches of the crypts -, and there might be something unexpected in the tomb.  Something missing?  Or something Targaryan added?

Interesting--had forgotten about the Yandel statement. Good catch--sounds like "Good" Queen Alysanne was a relative title.

Would they have to have messed with the bones to have made trouble? Just moving from the Nightfort is a way of disturbing the dead--that vow. "Horn that wakes the sleepers"--the vow is tied to the dead. And that spiral stair--like the crypt at Winterfell. By moving away from the Nightfort, the Targs were breaking from the dead, one way or another. The land and the castle were NOT under the control of any king--Kings of Winter seem to originally have been chosen by their people--as Jon is learning about both Wildlings and Lyanna Mormont.

So--a break from the dead, one way or another, possibly for PR, no?

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

 I think they might be one and the same.  The Fisher Queen's lake has shrunken into three smaller ones.  If I had to choose three of the locations in Westeros that would represent three Avalons/FQ islands (life-giving generation, blending/development, death/rebirth, I would pick the God's Eye, Graywater Watch and Winterfell, because of three-part association.   In the first we have a sacred island completely surrounded by water, so two distinct entities but harmonized.  Moreover green - life iself, growing things, trees. - all fed by lifegiving water.   In the second, Graywater Watch  we have water and earth mixed - mud - so harmonized but as a blending.  And it moves - so forward motion, change, development.  These two come closest to the Fisher Queen Island.  Winterfell represents the shrinking itself,  I think, where land takes over the water, but the water is still there, still surrounding, still in the lake and the tree - death but rebirth.

I agree--like this very much. And re: Winterfell: it's death and rebirth together, no? Life with the dead, life built on and connected to it.

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

A big part of AFFC for me was Brienne's journeys through the Riverlands.  They've become an almost surreal hell - a wasteland.  And sweetsunray posited that Lady Stoneheart is filling the Norse mythological character of Hel, queen of the underworld, and I agree, especially if we think of Lady Stoneheart (oldest daughter of the Fisher King house) as representative of their dying, a wraith of herself, a reflection as much of the land and people as her House itself.  There's as much a spiritual death in terms of morality and commonality of humanity going on in the Riverlands as the devastation of its fields and rivers.

Yes--and Brienne is traveling with a hellish sword that killed its owner. Trying to find her way out--it's the Odyssey in the underworld. Again--one of the reasons I think Oathkeeper is the sword she's use to play a role in ending all of this while Jon uses Dawn.

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

For myself I'm kind of sold on the Arthur Dayne identity.  Working with allusions rather than facts, and trying to show it to people who might not have read the work being referenced, is always hard to do, I find.  Harder than straight symbolism, or hard quotes - and you can often be wrong because the author decides to go in a different direction.  But I am sold that it is Arthur Dayne.  This is not a straight analogy - it should be the king (Rhaegar) on that island if it's Avalon, not Lancelot - but the parallels with Lancelot, particularly after the Arthurian saga is over (and not many people, even those who've read some of the Arthurian sagas, have read or followed what happened to Lancelot after Arthur died), with the monastery and the Hermit's Cave and the healing hands, are just too clear to me, as is Arthur's identification with Lancelot.  It feels completely right.  

Yeah - Joyous Gard.  Radar went off as soon as I saw Tower of Joy.  And it's Arthur Dayne's castle, just as Joyous Gard was Lancelot's.  

I agree--it does feel right for the Arthurian parallels to go this way. Will keep my eyes open if I ever get a chance at a new re-read. It also works that he left the sword--like Arthur insisted that Excaliber be returned, and that he was told of its return, before he died. Dawn returns to wait for the next wielder. And Arthur moves on to the Quiet Isle--I can see it working.

        

#357 sweetsunray

Posted Today, 08:04 PM

Sly Wren, on 04 Oct 2015 - 6:47 PM, said:

1. Agreed--the direwolves are natural and supernatural, underworld and over world creatures in Martinlandia. They can move between both. Thrown in that Sansa is actually a corpse queen (Lady ate from her fingers "as delicately as a queen" in Sansa's first ever POV)--the direwolves cross those spaces easily.

2. Robert's noting the barrows and the emptiness of the North--interesting that he doesn't see the significance. The ties to the dead and the history. Robert is happy to throw of his old life for the indulgence of King's Landing. Ned--is Ned. The Starks are Starks. To go all the way back to my OP--Jon at the Wall is seeing the everything fall away until he's connected to the Battle for the Dawn, some 8,000 years (depending on preference) previous.

Ties to the dead--the real dead, vs. the undead--are powerful in this world. The Starks have a direct living link with their sigil. Robert doesn't learn any of the lessons of the past--thinks being king means he can do what he wants. vs. the lessons Ned teaches his kids--so, the direwolves tie the kids to safety in many more ways than one.

3. The direwolves' snarling at the Lord of Winterfell while Lyanna weeps--might go back to your idea of judgment in the underworld. Ned judges others, but also himself. An underworld is where one sees truth. And the direwolves show the kids a lot. Jon--since I'm technically supposed to be focusing on him--Ghost leads him to the stars. To see the Sword of the Morning. To the dragonglass at the Fist. To other things, too. Ned's seeing the direwolves--in a way, he's judging himself while being judged by the collective.

I agree. And feel compelled to point out the white cloak tie to the KG that superunknown5 pointed out upthread re: Arthur.

Interesting--might be able to buy the Jon and Jaime part of the argument. I'm not sure that Theon's dream is prophetic or visionary (for a few reasons). But it is interesting that they are all centering their morality around direwolves (Greywind, I think, in Jon's dream) and Ned. Makes me wonder if Jaime's life might have fared better had he been sent to Winterfell or the Eyrie for fostering. 

I agree--and am interested to see how it will go. Ned realized he had to sacrifice part of himself to save Sansa--ended up doing a lot more than that. Is there enough left of the original Cat to engage in self-sacrifice? Is there enough of the true mother? And is she enough of a direwolf, or will someone else be the "judge?" 

Wolves: yup, they are guardians, messengers, psychopomps, able to travel to and fro in between 2 worlds, like ravens are. Ravens and wolves are psychopomps. Bears can travel both worlds as well, but they seek the caves and dens to sleep during "winter" and to birth cubs. They are the guardians of life, forest and balance from spring until fall.

I think it's entirely possible that Jon, Theon and Jaime experience the same underworld and its feast there from different positions. Bears? Sleeping. Lions? They are not an underworld animal. Ravens can't bite your leg of, so that only leaves wolves being the danger in the dark.

Regarding Cat - As LS she is the Demeter-Fury. If there is no mother to return the daughters to, it's game over... famine and starvation into perpetuity. There can only be restoration of balance if there is a mother to return her daughters to. No daughters returned: the mother will remain angry and will forbid life to grow. No mother to return the daughters: no restoration. So, yes, I would say she definitely is still a true mother, just a very very angry one. As for enough direwolf? There's one gigantic pack of wolves she shares domain and targets with, and she's veiled, leader of "underground" moment, operating from a Hollow Hill and forest. She certainly is working from the dark, the unseen, the hidden.

        

#358 Sly Wren

Posted Today, 08:09 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Oct 2015 - 2:43 PM, said:

I like this too, especially if it was on behalf of Howland Reed, who I believe is much more than a small man who likes to eat frogs - he is the nexus, the blend, the counsellor, the movement behind this. It's like there was an initial pact going on between all of them. The wolf pack, the Daynes - Ashara Starfall, Arthur Quiet Isle, the Green Men(that's who Howland prayed to for help), Howland of Graywatch himself - well there are 5 of the 7 FQ island reflections right there. Missing Hightower and Tully.

This is kind of exciting. I think we've got a "green knight". It was spring. I have to brush up. Will post on this later too.

Okay--how on earth did I not make the connection between the Green Men and the Green Knight--who is sometimes connected with the medieval Green Men? You're right--it's right there.

The Green Knight--who comes to challenge and to judge. The Crannogman whose presence challenges the knights to show their mettle. Who judges their squires. And who is lent help by the old gods to give strength to his arm (method to be determined).

Will be very interested to see what you come up with re: all of this--no rush, though.

        

#359 Sly Wren                    

Posted 59 minutes ago

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:04 PM, said:

Wolves: yup, they are guardians, messengers, psychopomps, able to travel to and fro in between 2 worlds, like ravens are. Ravens and wolves are psychopomps. Bears can travel both worlds as well, but they seek the caves and dens to sleep during "winter" and to birth cubs. They are the guardians of life, forest and balance from spring until fall.

I agree.

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:04 PM, said:

I think it's entirely possible that Jon, Theon and Jaime experience the same underworld and its feast there from different positions. Bears? Sleeping. Lions? They are not an underworld animal. Ravens can't bite your leg of, so that only leaves wolves being the danger in the dark.

Completely fair. I'm just not convinced Theon's dream is prophetic or visionary vs. straight up guilt. Hard to see anything in the dream that couldn't be pure guilt vs. "knowledge." Jaime's teaches him at least a few things. And Jon's is clearly fore-telling. But Theon's not sold yet. But you're right--it is possible.

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:04 PM, said:

Regarding Cat - As LS she is the Demeter-Fury. If there is no mother to return the daughters to, it's game over... famine and starvation into perpetuity. There can only be restoration of balance if there is a mother to return her daughters to. No daughters returned: the mother will remain angry and will forbid life to grow. No mother to return the daughters: no restoration.

This actually fits in with some of my thinking that Sansa will become the mother. The replacement for Cat. Cat is mostly gone already--both her mindset and Beric's thoughts show that. But Sansa--rebuilding Winterfell, mothering Robin, her resemblance to Cat. Like Jon is so like Ned (in many ways), becoming the father, Sansa is (slowly) becoming the mother. Who will restore Winterfell with the father (Jon). 

So--becoming the mother they all must return to. A twist--maybe. The river-mother who's also a direwolf queen. Maybe.

        

#360 sweetsunray            

Posted 33 minutes ago

Sly Wren, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:18 PM, said:

I agree. 

Completely fair. I'm just not convinced Theon's dream is prophetic or visionary vs. straight up guilt. Hard to see anything in the dream that couldn't be pure guilt vs. "knowledge." Jaime's teaches him at least a few things. And Jon's is clearly fore-telling. But Theon's not sold yet. But you're right--it is possible.

This actually fits in with some of my thinking that Sansa will become the mother. The replacement for Cat. Cat is mostly gone already--both her mindset and Beric's thoughts show that. But Sansa--rebuilding Winterfell, mothering Robin, her resemblance to Cat. Like Jon is so like Ned (in many ways), becoming the father, Sansa is (slowly) becoming the mother. Who will restore Winterfell with the father (Jon). 

So--becoming the mother they all must return to. A twist--maybe. The river-mother who's also a direwolf queen. Maybe.

Theon's dream is prophetic: he dreams of Robb entering the feast of the dead with Greywind. That's at the end of aCoK. Robb dies towards the end of aSoS, almost a whole book later. Theon has this dream to predict him of the consequences of his actions of becoming Prince of WF. His best friend, the one he recognizes as foster-brother dies.

Is her mindset gone? No, it's single minded. Which is something different. I don't think Sansa compares to Cat too well. She looks like her, but her personality is completely different. Cat is actually more like Arya, just an adult, polished Arya who accepts her duties without protest. But she's fierce, blunt, pragmatic, and thinks quickly on her feet. Sansa wants to be loved and liked. She loves dancing, music, sowing. Cat shows no such personal interest in these things.

Beric is the incarnation of a Zeus (Dondarrion which is too much a  "thunder" like name in Germanic languages like my own+lightning bolt), and thus of Robert. We are specifically told that Beric and his BwB serve as a continuation of Robert (aka Zeus). It's Zeus who orders the return of Persephone to restore the natural order, to stop the famine. The only way Beric can do that though is by first restoring the mother back to life. So, he resurrects Cat as LS and sacrifices his own life. LS can only leave the books once she knows her daughters are safe and returned. Her restoration is not that of WF, though she may lay the groundwork for that, but that of the RL.

361-370

#361 wolfmaid7             

Posted Yesterday, 09:59 PM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 5:03 PM, said:

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Wolmaid, thanks for your response. I'll try to be succinct.

I brought up the topic of making declarative statements specifically in regards to ruling things out very quickly and definitively. Such as when you said this at the end of your comment:

But i wasn't ruiling things out,i was basing my response on what the post was and following that vein.As i said its your theory and i'm in no position to do anything except query and get clarification on what you are saying.

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The problem is that you are declaring that this idea is a non-starter because you can't imagine a way for it to further the current plot, basically saying that the moon reappearing would be the only way to fix things. But of course Martin may well have thought of something you have not, and if you rule the idea out because the you can't immediately put all the pieces together, you may miss out on what he is doing. I have what I think I have a decent hypothesis about this, which I've tried to explain, but the point here just to not be so quick tot rule things out... I always say "you gotta follow the text," even if it does not make sense at first. 

Again i didn't deckare its a non starter i see a problem and i asked you to roll with it from there. You stated that the loss of a second moon caused the imbalance.I then asked you given what you said how do you see it rectifying and i went on the state a second moon isn't going to appear out of nowhere.So from that angle if i'm following along a theme you are trying to show me.That bolded is a bit much LML until Martin comes out and says this is what he is doing or has done you wrote this elaborate bit on how things were and are.In my mind your were and are doesn't make sense and you are saying this is what he's done,and what it is etc.Soa again my query isn't an unreasonable one. On the latter bolded that's not how i flow,usually if something doesn't make sense its because the premise is wrong,thus the conclusion is wrong and/or there is a link that's missing or not suppose to be there.And to state again,i'm not ruiling things out i'm telling you why it doesn't make sense to me and i'm not intetionally trying to be arguementative.

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The moon cracks in the Nissa Nissa story, and it cracks in the origin of dragons story. In one story, a burning sword is created, and in the other, fiery dragons are created. Both dragons and burning sword have been compared directly to the comet. The three things share common symbolism, and so I say that they are "symbolically interchangeable." For this symbolic purpose, comets and falling meteors or shooting stars are all considered to be the same thing. As you say, the comet is compared to many things - a burning sword, yes, and dragons as well - these are all what I would call "manifestations" of Lightbringer. Lightbringer is a sword, a torch, a messenger, a season slayer, the dragons, a person or people (such as the NW), or even the Wall - they are all symbolically interchangeable for Lightbringer. This is all in my first essay, or at leafs the new version of it, which is the first link in my signature. 

That's not what you told me,or what i took away from the below statement:

"The "bloody sword" double entendre is well set up in the books - it can be a sword bloodied in killing or a penis which has deflowered a maiden. Those are (in my opinion as well as Schmendrick's and many others) the two meanings of the Lightbringer legend."

Or were you meaning the legend became transformative in order to be diversivley percieved in the future which can also double as an ambiguous ploy device?

I think Dragons/Comets is not comparative its more heraldic and i'm taking this from both Osha and Old Nan that it means Dragons "fire and blood and nothing nice." Its not a big thing but compared would not be the word i'd use.Herald,messenger ...yes.

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In any case, the idea is that both stories which have the moon cracking involved produce things which symbolically interchangeable with each other - dragons (which I think are meteors), and a bloody, flaming red sword. If you place the sun in the role of Azor Ahai (which I think the text supports), and Nissa Nissa in the role of the moon (ditto), then the stories kind of match, because Lightbringer is symbolically a match for both dragons, meteors/comets, and flaming swords. I'll put that text in just a second.

To me its too much.Its the if its interchangeable with comets,then it will be with Dragons which will be inerchangeable with AA because the ethymology is Vedic is Dragons which you have to show me by the way because my knowledge is pulling something very different Dragon.Sun god diety yes but not Dragon even when you trace it back through Ahura Mazda to the medhira the constant theme which actualy flows with the Baphomet archetype is "wise lord" seking knowledge etc.So please show me your ethymology for this.

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When we hear a story that a moon cracked and dragons poured forth, drinking the sun's fire and breathing flame, that should really think make us think of a meteor shower, because falling meteors and comets have both been seen as dragons in mythology from both sides of the world, from Japan and China to South America. They are flying objects that breathe fire and make a big BANG when they land, so you can see why they were described in mythological terms as dragons. Chinese dragons are very fish-like and usually shown to be swimming in the ocean, half submersed, because they lie along the ocean and had to worry about meteors landing in the ocean and causing tsunamis... these are your "sea dragons." The Grey King slew a sea dragon which drown islands - that's a falling meteor detonation we are talking about.

I will bypass this for now i think you got my meaning and hesitation.

As for the direct comparison between the comet and Lightbringer: 

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It was splendid and scary all at once. “The red sword,” the bull named it.  He claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge.  When Arya squinted the right way, she could see the sword too, only it wasn’t a new sword, it was Ice, her father’s great sword, all ripply Valyrian steel and the red was Lord Eddard’s blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King’s Justice had cut off his head.

We have three different ideas which match Lightbringer here: a red sword, it's a sword fresh from the forge, and sword covered in blood. I think Ned's Ice is also used to symbolize Lightbringer in other passages, but that's a different line of inquiry so I'll skip over that for now.  Point is, the comet is a red sword associated with blood sacrifice.

And now we come to parts that i have a real problem with,what i call excessive mirroring without context.If a word or phrase that is common in the literary style of the author appears immediately it is seen as somehow being important.We know not every sword that burns read,more particularly not everything that is assigned that color can be LB.And it goes back to my statement because it can be so diverse there is the chance and its happening AA will be a woman with dragons,the watch with the wall,Stannis with his sword etc.

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And specifically, associated with Azor Ahai:

 

“Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire.  In him the prophecies are fulfilled.  The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”  (ACOK, Davos)

“I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy.  When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

Just as i thought the Comet is NOT a direct link to LB,it is a herald to AA.If you make an association between a red burning sword an a person yes and we have plenty of that,which over and over reiterates my point about it being excessivley diverse and open to interpretation by not only us but characters themselves. 

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You'll notice that red comet is associated, over and over again, with blood AND fire, as in the first paragraph, the sword was either red with blood or red with fire; in the second, the red comet blazes to signal the coming of AA, warrior of fire, but in the third, also a quote from Mel, it's now a "bleeding star" that signals AA's return. Thrown in the at the end is the idea of "waking dragons from stone," which I would say refers to both stone dragons eggs producing fire dragons as well as stone meters which are described or perceived as dragons. Lightbringer's forging produces dragon meteors, according to my theory, and AA wakes dragons from stone... it's all the same concept, imo. 

This where we differ as you can see from my reply above.

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As you mentioned, the comet is compared to many things - and all of them have to do with Lightbringer's original forging and the correlating moon destruction / Long Night disaster. It's the sword that slays the season because it literally slew the cycle of the seasons, causing a semi-permanent state of winter and night time. It's the messenger because it's the herald of AA's return, and because everyone sees it as some kind of omen. Of course I've already been talking about how Lightbringer has to do with dragons and flaming swords both. Even the Tully fish with a tail - that's just a sea dragon. There's a whole thing about dragons and fish, which I explored in this essay if you are curious. Lightbringer is surely a torch, as it lights the way (supposedly) and lifts the darkness of the Long Night (again, supposedly), and the head of the NW might be the right person to be holding the "torch" or lighting the way with a flaming sword, as the LH did. 

More blood and fire equivalencies and comet = dragons = flamings swords stuff:

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet … old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets.  (ACOK, Prologue)

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The red of the comet is the same red as blood, fire, and sunset - and I think "sunset" here describes the Long Night, the ultimate setting of the sun. Again, slaying the seasons as well as being a messenger, and associated with blood and fire. Of course this scene is at dragonstone, where there is much talk of stone dragons and waking dragons form stone. 

From the same chapter, the prologue of ACOK.. the first sentence of the book, actually, so you know it is important:

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The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky.

What makes a red slash? A sword. This sword slashes open the very sky - what does that sound like? And look, dragonstone, which I am of course proposing is a symbol for "flaming stone meteors" perceived as dragons. Quotes like this support this idea, I believe:

A night wind whispered through the great windows, sharp with the smell of the sea.  Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Above, the comet blazed red and malevolent.

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These associations appear repeatedly - falling stars, the comet, torches, dragon-stones, because these are all essentially sharing the same symbolism. They are different manifestations of the same idea (that's my hypothesis). 

More comets, dragons, and flaming swords:

“Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing.  She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it.  “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted.  (ACOK, Bran)

“When your dragons were small, they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.”

“Your wolves have more sense than your maester,” the wildling woman said.  “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.”  The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”  (ACOK, Bran)

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"Blood" and "Fire" are of course the words of House  Targaryen, the blood of the dragon, but blood and fire are also the main components of Lightbringer.  Specifically, as with the dragonbinder horn, it was "blood for fire." Coat the sword with blood to light it on fire, as Beric also did. That's why the comet is compared to all things blood and fire, because all of this has to do with Lightbringer. 

Jhogo spied it first.  “There,” he said in a hushed voice.  Dany looked and saw it, low in the east.  The first star was a comet, burning red.  Bloodred; fire red; the dragon’s tail.  She could not have asked for a stronger sign.  (AGOT, Daenerys)

Red comet = blood red = fire red = dragons.  

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The bleeding star was supposed to herald Azor Ahai's rebirth, when he walked dragons from stone. Here, it signaled Dany's rebirth and her waking dragons from stone eggs. And this entire event mirrors the moon cracking in the sun's fire to pour forth dragons. Dany is the moon of Drogo's life, and Drogo her sun and stars. In the fire of the sun, the moon steps, and is reborn amidst blood and fire to wake dragons from stone.  This also reinforces the idea that the "origin of dragons / moon cracking" story is meant to be associated with the Lightbringer story, because the Dany scene matches both. 

As we discussed, a bloody sword is also an impregnating penis - and Drago gave Dany this bloody sword on the night of her wedding, when she received the dragon eggs. This was her impregnation on two levels. When she woke the dragons from stone, most think Rhaego (drogo's seed) was part of the sacrifice which enabled the waking f dragons, and then the dragons took Rhaego's place as Dany's children (mother of dragons). So as you can see, first Drogo impregnates Dany with fiery seed as Dany receives her eggs, and then the waking of the dragons involved the literal death of the sun and the symbolic seat of the moon (maiden) in the solar pyre. 

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I hope that makes something more clear.

A couple other questions you asked:

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Mothers of Targs dying in childbirth: well, Jon Snow and Tyrion, duh! (heh heh). Of course I know you don't think Jon is tart but whatever, I had to mention it. If those theories are true, we have all three Targ heads of the dragon born of mothers who died in childbirth. But there have been others: Jeyne Westerling, wife of Maegor the cruel, Aemma Arryn, wife of Viserys I... that's all I can remember off the top of my head, but I feel like they may be more. 

Weagree thatt he Long Night is an effect, not a cause. I am suggesting that whatever caused the Long Night would be the obvious candidate for an event which could throw off the seasonal balance of Planetos, because it's a disaster which spanned at least half the globe and involved a screwing up of the seasonal cycle - prolonged winter.  

Yeah Jon being a Targ baby and Tyrion being a Targ baby has to stand on more than Targ moms die in baby. In this case you have to believe the conlusion beforehand for this to make sense and i don't flow that way. The text has to show than Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's baby,or that Tyrion is Joanna and Aery's baby first and then the above what you propose will make sense.Not before

I will come back to this a bit later,i haven't finish asking certain questions yes

 

        

#362 LmL                

Posted Yesterday, 10:12 PM

wolfmaid7, on 04 Oct 2015 - 8:59 PM, said:

I will come back to this a bit later,i haven't finish asking certain questions yes

You probably don't need to bother, wolfmaid. If you're not following the comets - dragons - flaming sword thing, and not seeing the connection between the origin of dragons story and the Lightbringer forging, then you're not going to buy the rest of theory at all. That's the very first part, and I don't think I can explain it any better. You seem to fundamentally disagree with my approach, so my explanations just don't wash with you. We probably don't need to spend any more time with this - if you don't see it, you don't see it. That's ok.

ETA: My theory isn't really the topic of the OP, so I don't want to keep going back and forth with it here.

        

#363 wolfmaid7

Posted Today, 01:55 AM

LmL, on 04 Oct 2015 - 9:12 PM, said:

You probably don't need to bother, wolfmaid. If you're not following the comets - dragons - flaming sword thing, and not seeing the connection between the origin of dragons story and the Lightbringer forging, then you're not going to buy the rest of theory at all. That's the very first part, and I don't think I can explain it any better. You seem to fundamentally disagree with my approach, so my explanations just don't wash with you. We probably don't need to spend any more time with this - if you don't see it, you don't see it. That's ok.


ETA: My theory isn't really the topic of the OP, so I don't want to keep going back and forth with it here.

Agreed!Just about to say that, went over and read it and yeah to problematic in some areas for me, but thanks for the patience.

        

#364 Lady Barbrey            

Posted Today, 05:40 AM

Hi guys - I just posted some of this on another thread - it's kind of a summary of where I'm sitting on the Sword of the Morning after reading through these posts, and was a response to a Black Beth post.  I'm assuming you're familiar with the connection between Dany's dream, the swords and the GEotD so won't preface it.

I was already familiar with the GeotD theory and LmL's ideas, so I am looking forward to hear what more you have to say about them. In my own discussions I pointed out that Dawn might not be one of many swords but THE sword, as the emperors seen were a cross-section over time, and so that sword might have been handed down from one to the other. I think this might be right because honestly I believe the GeotD story in conjunction with Dany's vision was meant to provide us with a backstory for Dawn. That also means that when the God-King on Earth ascended back to the heavens to join his starry family, it is likely he became the constellation the Sword of the Morning (or a Venus-like planet known as morning and evening star) - a myth of course for the people but similar to myths around the world where heroes, heras, and partly divine become constellations or planets. 

That is what I think Martin is rather convolutedly telling us about the uniqueness of Dawn, which is not a normal sword even now. When Martin was asked who would win, Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy, he said they'd be evenly matched unless Dayne was wielding Dawn, in which case Dayne wins hands down. So Dawn has the inherent magical power to enhance the abilities of its wielder. What else it can do is unknown. No mention here was made of Valyrian steel but I think we can assume Barristan wielding it would have made no difference. 

I do think Valyrian steel was somehow made with bloodmagic as an attempt to imitate Dawn, because I believe the Valyrians knew about it from having left Westeros probably from a line of proto-Daynes themselves, else why Dany's visions of that ancestral line carrying swords that looked like Dawn? And the purple eyes? Or they're indigenous to Essos and come from the line of the BSE, but still have the ancestors in common - wouldn't explain the violet eyes but everything else is there - and when the BSE murdered his sister the sword of identity, unity, etc., was smuggled away by her own purple eyed descendents, who first became the Fisher Queens and then led the First Men to Westeros, much like Nymeria does millennia later, to escape the slavery of the Bloodstone Empire, and the Braavosi slaves do as well. These are three diasporas that we actually know about (the World Book tells us the First Men likely come from the area of the Fisher Queens). 

I am not sure it matters if a meteor(s) came from a constellation or a moon [I'm responding to the thread poster about her idea that the Lion of Night and Maiden Made of Light are constellations] . The Maiden Made of Light is obviously the Day to me, who hides her face, the sun, at which time the Lion of Night, the literal Night not the moon comes roaring in. Day and Night exist side by side in harmony at dawn and twilight, so their child, the God-King, should realistically and symbolically be associated with dawn and twilight.  The Westerosi either have an earthlike Venus planet that is the first and brightest star at dawn and in the evening (called both the morning star and the evening star), and that planet is who the Gd-King supposedly became, or the Sword of the Morning constellation is meant to reflect that harmony. Interestingly, the Daynes also have someone called the Sword of the Evening who we've yet to find out about. 

The problem is that Westeros is not in harmony, and in the World book the only scientific hypothesis the maesters have is that the days and nights are not regular, building into seasonal irregularities like they experience. 

If this is true, and I think it is, an inequality and lack of harmony between day and night is at the crux of the problem, either as an effect of impact, magical intervention or both. That's why I still think the sword Dawn wielded by a Sword of the Morning for the Daynes or Sword of the Evening for the more cthonic Starks has a role to play in a literal harmonization of the planet's days and nights.

It is also why I am unsure whether Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne sired Jon.  It seems to me a fire and ice harmonization is what we're always told is what would lead to defeat of the night, but that only resolves one symptom of the problem.  The prophecy might be misleading.  It is a harmonization and regulation of day and night that should be the goal, regulating the seasons, and abolishing the unnatural cycle that leads to build up of lengthy seasons and too much magical power becoming invested in ice or fire elements.  Therefore, a child born of the Morning (Daynes) and the Evening (Starks) might be more reasonably able to harmonize the planet.  I'm not sold either way, but the fire and ice dichotomy leaves me suspicious.  The only thing that comes from bringing these two together is massive flooding and possible destruction of Westeros.  

Building upon my own Fisher Queen isle analysis, and my location of Winterfell as the gravesite Avalon - isle of glass, Glastonbury, death and (eventual) rebirth at a time of need - it seems logical that they would have the title Sword of the Evening if wielding the sword Dawn, who may be original Ice.  A Vorian Dayne called the Sword of the Evening was in fact sent to the Wall when the Martells consolidated Dorne, but as no sword appears to be attached to that title, it appears to me a courtesy title or empty one until we know more.  Regardless, it suggests that either Dawn operates as both a sword of the evening/morning and her bearer changes names according to the threat opposed, or there are two swords, but of the same magical material. I believe it is the former, because Day and Night bore one child in the myth, not two, who handed the sword down. 

I would also add that one of the Fisher Queen isles I indicated was Hightower.  I think the Hightowers, queen and Hand, worked purposefully or out of instinct towards the destruction of the Targaryans through dilution of their line, poisoning of eggs, the Dance of Dragons, and recently encouraging maesters to discourage magic of a kind that could destroy Westeros.  The Daynes and Starks today seem the more martial branch of the line; the Hightowers more insidious, like water, slowly seeping, dampening, wetting down the fire

        

#365 Stout             

Posted Today, 06:46 AM

Lady Barbrey - I absolutely love the concept of Arthur Dayne on the Quiet Isle.  Its the first identity of the Elder Brother that makes sense to me.  I don't have much to add, other than Illyrio and Viserys's comments that the small folk are awaiting their return and something along the lines of them weaving or hiding tapestries for their return.  I need to look up the exact quotes along with something about Elder Brother having tapestries rolled up in this cave/hill.

It's times like this that I wish my book/show memories weren't so jumbled together!

Edited to add:  I think my recollection of the tapestries was incorrect.  The wiki says that tapestries hung in the Hermit Hole.  I was thinking there were rolls of them stacked up for some reason.  Apparently I am not remembering things correctly.

 

#366 Stout

Posted Today, 07:06 AM

Regarding Elder Brother's earlier life:

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History

The Elder Brother was the third son of a family of knights, and he had nothing to offer the woman he wanted to marry but the shield, sword and horse of his own knighthood. He fought for House Targaryen at the Battle of the Trident where he was knocked unconscious. Others thought him dead so they stripped his armor and possessions and dumped his body into the Trident. He floated downstream where he woke up naked on the Quiet Isle. He spent the next ten years in silence.

Arthur Dayne was not at the Trident, nor was he a third son.  Do you think that he simply made up the story of his past, or would his current pious nature keep him from false truths?

        

#367 Ser Knute                 

Posted Today, 07:44 AM

I'm not entirely sold on the origins of Dawn as formerly being the original Ice.

While I don't have a very deep theory of where it came from, I think the clues we do have aren't to be dismissed so easily.

Starfall from the Wiki: 

Starfall: is a castle in Dorne and is the ancestral seat of House Dayne.[1] It is located in the western Red Mountains on an island[2] in the Torentine where it pours into the Summer Sea.[3][4] Starfall, which includes a tower called the Palestone Sword,[5] guards the western arm of Dorne.[6] Northeast of Starfall is High Hermitage, the seat of a Dayne cadet branch.

According to legend, Starfall was built where the first Dayne found a magic stone after he followed the path of a shooting star. The Daynes grew in power to become the Kings of the Torrentine and one of the strongest houses of Dorne.

Now, whether this shooting star is a part of the Red Comet, the destroyed Fire Moon, or from another source (SoTM constellation?) is unclear.  Interestingly, the "magic stone" link takes you straight to Dawn's wiki page, but doesn't elaborate on when it fell and what color the stone, or meteorite was.  I find it odd too that it's described as being on an island at the mouth of the river Torentine.  

This is all conjecture, so bear with me, but in LML's theory, the astronomical event is paralleled in literal sense.  So, as the Comet destroys the Moon, the BSE murders his sister, the Amethyst Empress.  He then speculates that the Moon rock is basically cooked through the intense heat and then as it breaks through the atmosphere, it could possibly be even further affected.  This seems a perfectly reasonable explanation for the black stone that the BSE soon begins to worship as it doesn't seem to have been present prior to that.  Curiously, the wiki for the Black Stone page has references to every black stone structure on Planetos.  But, this does not appear to be the case with the stone at Starfall.  It's not included in the black stone page, nor does its appearance look like Valyrian Steel.

Another weird oddity is this: When Ned and company defeat the KG at the TOJ, he returns Dawn to Starfall.  If Dawn was originally Ice, how ironic that Ned is taking his family's ancestral sword back to a House that it may or may not legitimately belong to.  As well, it was replaced with a Valyrian blade at some point, roughly 400 years before Robert took the throne, which is like receiving a sword from the devil and giving a sword from God away.  Not that I know how Ice was parted from Stark hands, just that these are the events that are said to have occurred.

I suppose Dawn could be the original Ice, but there's a lot of mystery surrounding why it was crafted by the Daynes, held as an office only worthy of the greatest of knights, which the north men are usually not and then somehow found its way to a Stark (first LN), and then back to a Dayne (post LN), and then back to a Stark (RR), and finally back to the Daynes when Ned returns it to Starfall!  That's an awful lot of change over for a sword with such fame. 

So, I am having some issue with Dawn being named such and then somehow coming into the hands of Starks who hold it for an undetermined amount of time, but during such time rename it Ice and then later it returns to Dayne hands and reverts to the original name.  As well, in the history of the Long Night, the Last Hero and the Battle for the Dawn, there is no mention of a sword being used, only that it was discovered during that time that dragonglass could kill the Others.  In fact the LH's sword froze and broke when he tried to use it, which suggests either in a melee with an Other, or simply in some normal usage but the intense cold had made it brittle, which I'm not sure would be the case for Valyrian Steel or Dawn.

I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it seems off.

A part of me thinks the wording "heart of a fallen star" is curious.  As if maybe some part of that Moon, or Comet, survived into the atmosphere and landing upon Starfall, is perhaps the essence of the AE.  Or, possibly a star within the constellation of The Sword of the Morning fell?

I'm open to all possibilities, but I think there's something differentiating Dawn and Valyrian Steel.  We can't know if the "heart of a fallen star" was prior to the comet impacting the moon, or a piece of either after it reached the atmosphere.

I've done some reading on the threads about Dawn, but I'm not seeing this angle really explored.  There's some threads about Ice too but I haven't gotten to them yet.

        

#368 LmL

Posted Today, 09:46 AM

One correction; the Last Hero was said to slay Others with a blade of dragonsteel. We don't know what is meant exactly by "dragonsteel," but it is more than just the dragonglass daggers. There was at least one important sword.

Also we don't have any idea when the original Ice was lost. It doesn't tell us that the original was lost at the same time as the current one came

from Valyria, merely that Ned's V steel Ice is not the original, and that info only comes from Cat, fwiw.

        

#369 Lady Barbrey

Posted Today, 10:05 AM

Stout, on 05 Oct 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

Regarding Elder Brother's earlier life:

Arthur Dayne was not at the Trident, nor was he a third son.  Do you think that he simply made up the story of his past, or would his current pious nature keep him from false truths?

I actually read the whole thing recently, and had to ask myself how much was he lying?  He iied about the Hound, but it was close to the truth if you think about the Hound dying and Brother Sandor returning.  Still lying - "buried him with my own hands".  So the story has to be looked at with suspicion. The story about himself was quite a long story and seemed to be full of lies, but in retrospect it could have happened..  One thing we actually don't know is if he was a third son.  We know he has an older brother but there might have been another one at one time.  That's not made clear from Edric.   Another is that he might have been at the Trident before being injured and returning to the Tower of Joy.  He had plenty of time - Ned rode to Kings Landing and then to clear things up in the Stormlands with more battles before going to Dorne.  Why wouldn't he have been recognized at the Trident?  Well, if he didn't have his shield or Dawn, and was in a full set of armour, he would not have been.  I'm not saying he went incognito but things were rushed and there might have been a reason they were left behind   Or, horrors of horrors, he was stripped of Dawn - no one would see it until he drew it for battle and no one would be looking by that time - when he almost drowned. Also, if he and Ned fought when he did arrive at the TOJ, and Dayne was badly injured as it seems he was, that could be why Ned was able to beat him.  As well, that bit about being from a family of knights (the most famous knights in Westeros) and  liege to a lord to a lord to a lord is actually true.  He would have been liege to his oldest brother, who would have been liege to the Prince of Dorne who would have been liege to Aerys.  He also didn't own any land as a third son so would have nothing to offer a lady, whether it was Lyanna or Elia or someone else, except his horse, his shield and his sword.  And lastly, when he speaks of alcohol, and of rape - well that bit I don't want to buy but let's face it, it's possible.  All the clues - except his own story - fit with him being Dayne, so if we look at that story and say what parts MUST be lies - there are not many at all, mainly because we know so little about him or what went down.

                 

#370 Ser Knute                 

Posted Today, 10:11 AM

LmL, on 05 Oct 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

One correction; the Last Hero was said to slay Others with a blade of dragonsteel. We don't know what is meant exactly by "dragonsteel," but it is more than just the dragonglass daggers. There was at least one important sword.

Also we don't have any idea when the original Ice was lost. It doesn't tell us that the original was lost at the same time as the current one came
from Valyria, merely that Ned's V steel Ice is not the original, and that info only comes from Cat, fwiw.

That may be for sure, I was just quoting off the Wiki page in reference to the Battle of the Dawn.  There's probably a Sam quote or something that references the Dragon Steel.

It's fine, I can agree that it's possible there was a sword involved.  I just can't get passed the idea that Dawn was crafted by the Daynes and somehow ends up in Stark possession only to be returned to the Daynes twice while we've never heard of any history of the Starks being a Sword of the Morning.  Sumtingwong!

 

[Sly Wren]

Okay--am now seriously questioning my sanity for promising to do this. Apparently I'm Horton the Elephant.

371-380

#371 Ser Knute              

Posted Today, 10:22 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 05 Oct 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

I actually read the whole thing recently, and had to ask myself how much was he lying?  He iied about the Hound, but it was close to the truth if you think about the Hound dying and Brother Sandor returning.  Still lying - "buried him with my own hands".  So the story has to be looked at with suspicion. The story about himself was quite a long story and seemed to be full of lies, but in retrospect it could have happened..  One thing we actually don't know is if he was a third son.  We know he has an older brother but there might have been another one at one time.  That's not made clear from Edric.   Another is that he might have been at the Trident before being injured and returning to the Tower of Joy.  He had plenty of time - Ned rode to Kings Landing and then to clear things up in the Stormlands with more battles before going to Dorne.  Why wouldn't he have been recognized at the Trident?  Well, if he didn't have Dawn, his shield, etc., he might not have been.  I'm not saying he went incognito but things were rushed and there might have been a reason they were left behind.  Also, if he and Ned fought when he did arrive at the TOJ, and Dayne was badly injured as it seems he was, that could be why Ned was able to beat him.  As well, that bit about being liege to a lord to a lord to a lord is actually true.  He would have been liege to his oldest brother, who would have been liege to the Prince of Dorne who would have been liege to Aerys.  He also didn't own any land as a third son so would have nothing to offer a lady, whether it was Lyanna or Elia, except his horse, his shield and his sword.  And lastly, when he speaks of rape - well that bit I don't want to buy but let's face it, it's possible.  All the clues - except his own story - fit with him being Dayne, so if we look at that story and say what parts MUST be lies - there are not many at all, mainly because we know so little about him or what went down.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that Elder Brother tells li'l white lies, or rather truths wrapped up in li'l white lies.  The only problem I see is that he was a third brother which I don't think Arthur was, he had 2 sisters and a unnamed elder brother I believe.  Another odd point is that he could only offer a prospective bride his Shield, Sword and Horse.  BUT, being the SotM, that Sword is not in fact his to offer, it's a minor thing but worth pointing out.  That's odd though, he has an unnamed (thought I might have seen it in the World Book?, I'll check) Elder Brother, and his title is Elder Brother... WEIRD!

On one hand, I'd kinda really dig seeing Arthur still in the story.  On the other hand, he'd be Barristan's age roughly and no longer the SotM, so he might not be near as formidable as when he was in his prime with Dawn.  

Are there any other "likely" candidates for Elder Brother based on the information provided?

                 

#372 Stout             

Posted Today, 10:46 AM

Ser Knute, on 05 Oct 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Are there any other "likely" candidates for Elder Brother based on the information provided?

I haven't done it, but I'd like to take the time to look at who "died" at the Trident, with the physical description of being a "tall man, with a large, square head, shrewd eyes, a veined, red nose, and a heavy jaw".  

While its certainly not canon, the image of Gerold Hightower on the wiki fits the description.  Just a thought, nothing more...

 

#373 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 11:25 AM

Stout, on 05 Oct 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

I haven't done it, but I'd like to take the time to look at who "died" at the Trident, with the physical description of being a "tall man, with a large, square head, shrewd eyes, a veined, red nose, and a heavy jaw".  

While its certainly not canon, the image of Gerold Hightower on the wiki fits the description.  Just a thought, nothing more...

Well if you're going with Hightower, you're ignoring all the Lancelot clues in my original post about this - they were certainly put there on purpose by George so unless he wanted to provide someone like me who has read the tales with a major red herring, then they point directly to Dayne.  Rhaegar, who gets conflated with Dayne I think in all our imaginations, is the only outside possibility, yet I'm told there was a body, he died with a woman's name on his lips, and the story Elder Brother tells wouldn't be full of a few "white lies" it would be wholesale huge lying.

        

#374 Lady Barbrey

Posted Today, 11:39 AM

Ser Knute, on 05 Oct 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

I'll agree wholeheartedly that Elder Brother tells li'l white lies, or rather truths wrapped up in li'l white lies.  The only problem I see is that he was a third brother which I don't think Arthur was, he had 2 sisters and a unnamed elder brother I believe.  Another odd point is that he could only offer a prospective bride his Shield, Sword and Horse.  BUT, being the SotM, that Sword is not in fact his to offer, it's a minor thing but worth pointing out.  That's odd though, he has an unnamed (thought I might have seen it in the World Book?, I'll check) Elder Brother, and his title is Elder Brother... WEIRD!

On one hand, I'd kinda really dig seeing Arthur still in the story.  On the other hand, he'd be Barristan's age roughly and no longer the SotM, so he might not be near as formidable as when he was in his prime with Dawn.  

Are there any other "likely" candidates for Elder Brother based on the information provided?

The explanation for that is in the quote you're quoting?  We don't know he didn't have more than one older brother at one time, we just know he has at least one now.  Also, the reason I put the post on here was to support ideas that Jon could be sword of the morning.  I don't want to derail Sly Wren's thread, so maybe if you want to start looking for other candidates you could start another thread?  Otherwise, I'll feel bad about putting it in here

There is a good one about it possibly being a Darry.  That's the one to do with the tapestries.

                 

#375 Sly Wren

Posted Today, 09:30 PM

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:43 PM, said:

Theon's dream is prophetic: he dreams of Robb entering the feast of the dead with Greywind. That's at the end of aCoK. Robb dies towards the end of aSoS, almost a whole book later. Theon has this dream to predict him of the consequences of his actions of becoming Prince of WF. His best friend, the one he recognizes as foster-brother dies.

This isn't an issue I'm throwing down on one way or another. Just seems like Theon's dream could be manifestations of guilt and fear. He gets some of the deaths right--Ned and Robert. But not Lyanna, Rickard, or Brandon--in real life, he didn't know how they died. He doesn't know in the dream, either. Seems like the dream builds--betrayal or more and more Starks and Stark history showing up--culminating in biggest guilt and fear--did he get Robb killed by betraying him? Robb's not beheaded. Neither is Greywind. 

So, could be prophecy--absolutely. But might also just be guilt.

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:43 PM, said:

Is her mindset gone? No, it's single minded. Which is something different. I don't think Sansa compares to Cat too well. She looks like her, but her personality is completely different. Cat is actually more like Arya, just an adult, polished Arya who accepts her duties without protest. But she's fierce, blunt, pragmatic, and thinks quickly on her feet. Sansa wants to be loved and liked. She loves dancing, music, sowing. Cat shows no such personal interest in these things.

Good point re: Cat and Arya--impulsive and "pragmatic"--though not always in a constructive manner.

I think, though, that Sansa is becoming mothering. And the she-wolf (Ladylike she wolf) we see in her first POV is showing up again. So, not becoming like Cat per se, but fulfilling Cat's role eventually. This is just a guess with half-worked out info. But--it's my opinion for now. Subject to sudden and immediate change.

On Cat's mindset--single-minded, yes. But also--less human. If I remember correctly (always a risky proposition), Demeter goes into deep mourning after losing her child, searching and descending into the underworld. Not a killing spree.

I completely agree that Martin is using some of the Demeter and Persephone symbols and myths with Cat and her girls. But he's also twisting and changing it, too. Cat is not likely to see a restoration of self. She's not frozen the world. She's hunting its members. Seems like these changes might change how the resolution will work out.

sweetsunray, on 04 Oct 2015 - 7:43 PM, said:

Beric is the incarnation of a Zeus (Dondarrion which is too much a  "thunder" like name in Germanic languages like my own+lightning bolt), and thus of Robert. We are specifically told that Beric and his BwB serve as a continuation of Robert (aka Zeus). It's Zeus who orders the return of Persephone to restore the natural order, to stop the famine. The only way Beric can do that though is by first restoring the mother back to life. So, he resurrects Cat as LS and sacrifices his own life. LS can only leave the books once she knows her daughters are safe and returned. Her restoration is not that of WF, though she may lay the groundwork for that, but that of the RL.

I like this! And it works--except that Martin has twisted it, too. The "restoration" of Cat is not restorative. She's a revenant of sorts. And, based on Beric's experience, Cat has no hope of recovery from that. I could see her giving up/dying when her girls are safe at home. And it seems like her death might be necessary fro the full restoration of the Riverlands--can't see how UnCat's mindset would ever stop. . . and some point, the vengeance must stop or the hell continues.

 

#376 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 09:54 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 05 Oct 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

I was already familiar with the GeotD theory and LmL's ideas, so I am looking forward to hear what more you have to say about them. In my own discussions I pointed out that Dawn might not be one of many swords but THE sword, as the emperors seen were a cross-section over time, and so that sword might have been handed down from one to the other. I think this might be right because honestly I believe the GeotD story in conjunction with Dany's vision was meant to provide us with a backstory for Dawn. That also means that when the God-King on Earth ascended back to the heavens to join his starry family, it is likely he became the constellation the Sword of the Morning (or a Venus-like planet known as morning and evening star) - a myth of course for the people but similar to myths around the world where heroes, heras, and partly divine become constellations or planets. 

That is what I think Martin is rather convolutedly telling us about the uniqueness of Dawn, which is not a normal sword even now. When Martin was asked who would win, Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy, he said they'd be evenly matched unless Dayne was wielding Dawn, in which case Dayne wins hands down. So Dawn has the inherent magical power to enhance the abilities of its wielder. What else it can do is unknown. No mention here was made of Valyrian steel but I think we can assume Barristan wielding it would have made no difference. 

Amen re: Dawn's uniqueness and power! We don't have much info, but what we do have--amen!

And I like the idea of the myth of the constellation. Fits with Jon's narrative saying "the Sword of the Morning still hung in the south." Sounds like an eternal presence--like a god. Hope. And Jon only sees it when he exhibits faith--"he allowed himself to hope" (Voice has an opinion re: this, too and its possible tie to Native American rituals) (the context of the comment) 

Lady Barbrey, on 05 Oct 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

I do think Valyrian steel was somehow made with bloodmagic as an attempt to imitate Dawn, because I believe the Valyrians knew about it from having left Westeros probably from a line of proto-Daynes themselves, else why Dany's visions of that ancestral line carrying swords that looked like Dawn? And the purple eyes? Or they're indigenous to Essos and come from the line of the BSE, but still have the ancestors in common - wouldn't explain the violet eyes but everything else is there - and when the BSE murdered his sister the sword of identity, unity, etc., was smuggled away by her own purple eyed descendents, who first became the Fisher Queens and then led the First Men to Westeros, much like Nymeria does millennia later, to escape the slavery of the Bloodstone Empire, and the Braavosi slaves do as well. These are three diasporas that we actually know about (the World Book tells us the First Men likely come from the area of the Fisher Queens). 

1. Good point re: Dany's vision. I'm pretty sold on Dawn as artifact (or "museum piece" to co-opt LmL). But you're right--why would Dany be told of it in her visions? Part of her collective memory, perhaps. Which means the Valyrians likely knew of such swords--light and sharp and magical. So, made imitations with Valyrian steel. And the results were dark--shadowed versions of Dawn. I'm getting a bit too lyrical here . . . sorry.

2. I still need to find time in my magic hourglass to re-read that part of the World Book. But i'm liking it more and more. Very good catch!

Lady Barbrey, on 05 Oct 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

If this is true, and I think it is, an inequality and lack of harmony between day and night is at the crux of the problem, either as an effect of impact, magical intervention or both. That's why I still think the sword Dawn wielded by a Sword of the Morning for the Daynes or Sword of the Evening for the more cthonic Starks has a role to play in a literal harmonization of the planet's days and nights.

It is also why I am unsure whether Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne sired Jon.  It seems to me a fire and ice harmonization is what we're always told is what would lead to defeat of the night, but that only resolves one symptom of the problem.  The prophecy might be misleading.  It is a harmonization and regulation of day and night that should be the goal, regulating the seasons, and abolishing the unnatural cycle that leads to build up of lengthy seasons and too much magical power becoming invested in ice or fire elements.  Therefore, a child born of the Morning (Daynes) and the Evening (Starks) might be more reasonably able to harmonize the planet.  I'm not sold either way, but the fire and ice dichotomy leaves me suspicious.  The only thing that comes from bringing these two together is massive flooding and possible destruction of Westeros. 

1.  I agree.The problem is the Long Night--the imbalance of day and night, not just the Winter. Winter is endurable--the Long Night is something else entirely. Allows for the rise of the Others. I'm still not sure what to do with the Sword of the Evening--it's sitting there in the narrative--barely touched. Unlike The Sword of the Morning. But it's really tempting to think both are necessary.

2. Agree on the problem of Jon's parentage. One of the reasons I was interested in this whole line of reasoning is that when you look at what Jon is learning, it tells readers one thing. When you look at the logistics for parentage, another pops out. So--I'm honestly not sure at this point. And I agree on the prophecy's being misleading. It seems that the Targ's have been chasing it off and on and in different ways for generations. Usually with disastrous results. The idea that they've misunderstood it, that it's day and night, not ice and fire--makes sense with the history of Westeros and the Long Night. And with Martin's portrayal of prophecy in general.

Lady Barbrey, on 05 Oct 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

Building upon my own Fisher Queen isle analysis, and my location of Winterfell as the gravesite Avalon - isle of glass, Glastonbury, death and (eventual) rebirth at a time of need - it seems logical that they would have the title Sword of the Evening if wielding the sword Dawn, who may be original Ice.  A Vorian Dayne called the Sword of the Evening was in fact sent to the Wall when the Martells consolidated Dorne, but as no sword appears to be attached to that title, it appears to me a courtesy title or empty one until we know more.  Regardless, it suggests that either Dawn operates as both a sword of the evening/morning and her bearer changes names according to the threat opposed, or there are two swords, but of the same magical material. I believe it is the former, because Day and Night bore one child in the myth, not two, who handed the sword down. 

I like it. Am wondering if the title Sword of the Evening was in relation to being sent to the Wall . . . but I agree. If there's a long night, all that's needed is for day to come. To reset the harmony and balance. 

Lady Barbrey, on 05 Oct 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

I would also add that one of the Fisher Queen isles I indicated was Hightower.  I think the Hightowers, queen and Hand, worked purposefully or out of instinct towards the destruction of the Targaryans through dilution of their line, poisoning of eggs, the Dance of Dragons, and recently encouraging maesters to discourage magic of a kind that could destroy Westeros.  The Daynes and Starks today seem the more martial branch of the line; the Hightowers more insidious, like water, slowly seeping, dampening, wetting down the fire.

This is very interesting--we need to know more about the Hightowers, without question. And I've barely looked into them myself. But the idea that they even instinctively dislike fire magic--fits with the Starks' instinctive naming of their kings--King of Winter (not the people); King in the North (not of the North). The Free Forlk choose a king--IE: The Starks and the Northerners instinctively dislike the dragons and the centralized rule they provide. Maybe.

Will have to keep an eye out for the Hightowers from now on.

                 

#377 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 10:11 PM

Ser Knute, on 05 Oct 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

I'm not entirely sold on the origins of Dawn as formerly being the original Ice.

<snip>

I suppose Dawn could be the original Ice, but there's a lot of mystery surrounding why it was crafted by the Daynes, held as an office only worthy of the greatest of knights, which the north men are usually not and then somehow found its way to a Stark (first LN), and then back to a Dayne (post LN), and then back to a Stark (RR), and finally back to the Daynes when Ned returns it to Starfall!  That's an awful lot of change over for a sword with such fame. 

So, I am having some issue with Dawn being named such and then somehow coming into the hands of Starks who hold it for an undetermined amount of time, but during such time rename it Ice and then later it returns to Dayne hands and reverts to the original name.  As well, in the history of the Long Night, the Last Hero and the Battle for the Dawn, there is no mention of a sword being used, only that it was discovered during that time that dragonglass could kill the Others.  In fact the LH's sword froze and broke when he tried to use it, which suggests either in a melee with an Other, or simply in some normal usage but the intense cold had made it brittle, which I'm not sure would be the case for Valyrian Steel or Dawn.

I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it seems off.

A part of me thinks the wording "heart of a fallen star" is curious.  As if maybe some part of that Moon, or Comet, survived into the atmosphere and landing upon Starfall, is perhaps the essence of the AE.  Or, possibly a star within the constellation of The Sword of the Morning fell?

I'm open to all possibilities, but I think there's something differentiating Dawn and Valyrian Steel.  We can't know if the "heart of a fallen star" was prior to the comet impacting the moon, or a piece of either after it reached the atmosphere.

I've done some reading on the threads about Dawn, but I'm not seeing this angle really explored.  There's some threads about Ice too but I haven't gotten to them yet.

This is all completely fair. So, just a few ideas--that may not solve anything. . .when I started all of this, I was mostly following the symbolism of what Jon sees and learns. Those are pretty clear. The logistics? I'm still slogging through all of that.

1. The idea of the sword coming to the Starks/LH: when the LH sword breaks as he's surrounded by Others, seems like something must have happened to save him. Otherwise--not so much last hero as "dead guy." I agree with other analysis I've read that we see this re-played with Waymar in the Game Prologue. ETA: See here

Note that in the Prologue, when Waymar pulls his sword, the Other pauses. And watches the sword--why? What's he looking for? Gared notes how light plays on Waymar's sword, and on the Other's sword. Am assuming the light would play a certain way on whatever sword the Other is looking for.

In other words, I think someone (possibly the Children) gave the Last Hero Dawn. A new sword to replace the broken one. A sword from the Great Empire. How all this happened? I do not know. But the idea that the sword is only for a worthy wielder, NOT to be kept for ancestral passing--that we already have with Dawn. So--sending the sword to wait for the next wielder--am thinking that might be part of the conditions of using it.

As you have probably noticed, there are a LOT of "thinks" and "ifs" in all of that. Lots of guesses. But given what little we have in the books--I think they are at least not insane guesses.

2. On the "fallen star"--I'm kind of all over the place on that one. The idea that the white swords Dany sees in the HotU could have been from an earlier meteor. And the BSE chose to make his sword (since he couldn't get the white one--he was the Great Empire's version of Darkstar, maybe?) from a different substance. A magical counterfeit--with blood magic? Maybe, maybe, maybe.

I like the idea of a star from the constellation. Or Lady Barbrey's idea above re: the constellation. 

3. Bottom line: I can show what Jon learns and sees. How he's going to get the sword and how the history worked? That I'm still working on.

                 

#378 Sly Wren                    

Posted Yesterday, 10:22 PM

Double--weird editing mistake. 

                 

#379 LmL                

Posted Yesterday, 10:34 PM

Sly Wren, on 05 Oct 2015 - 8:54 PM, said:

Amen re: Dawn's uniqueness and power! We don't have much info, but what we do have--amen!
 
And I like the idea of the myth of the constellation. Fits with Jon's narrative saying "the Sword of the Morning still hung in the south." Sounds like an eternal presence--like a god. Hope. And Jon only sees it when he exhibits faith--"he allowed himself to hope" (Voice has an opinion re: this, too and its possible tie to Native American rituals) (the context of the comment) 
 

1. Good point re: Dany's vision. I'm pretty sold on Dawn as artifact (or "museum piece" to co-opt LmL). But you're right--why would Dany be told of it in her visions? Part of her collective memory, perhaps. Which means the Valyrians likely knew of such swords--light and sharp and magical. So, made imitations with Valyrian steel. And the results were dark--shadowed versions of Dawn. I'm getting a bit too lyrical here . . . sorry.
 
2. I still need to find time in my magic hourglass to re-read that part of the World Book. But i'm liking it more and more. Very good catch!
 

1.  I agree. 
The problem is the Long Night--the imbalance of day and night, not just the Winter. Winter is endurable--the Long Night is something else entirely. Allows for the rise of the Others. I'm still not sure what to do with the Sword of the Evening--it's sitting there in the narrative--barely touched. Unlike The Sword of the Morning. But it's really tempting to think both are necessary.
 
2. Agree on the problem of Jon's parentage. One of the reasons I was interested in this whole line of reasoning is that when you look at what Jon is learning, it tells readers one thing. When you look at the logistics for parentage, another pops out. So--I'm honestly not sure at this point. And I agree on the prophecy's being misleading. It seems that the Targ's have been chasing it off and on and in different ways for generations. Usually with disastrous results. The idea that they've misunderstood it, that it's day and night, not ice and fire--makes sense with the history of Westeros and the Long Night. And with Martin's portrayal of prophecy in general.
 

I like it. Am wondering if the title Sword of the Evening was in relation to being sent to the Wall . . . but I agree. If there's a long night, all that's needed is for day to come. To reset the harmony and balance. 
 

This is very interesting--we need to know more about the Hightowers, without question. And I've barely looked into them myself. But the idea that they even instinctively dislike fire magic--fits with the Starks' instinctive naming of their kings--King of Winter (not the people); King in the North (not of the North). The Free Forlk choose a king--IE: The Starks and the Northerners instinctively dislike the dragons and the centralized rule they provide. Maybe.
 
Will have to keep an eye out for the Hightowers from now on.

If I may....

The original "sword of the evening" was Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, which would have been the first corruption of the swords of pale fire, to go with your working hypothesis here. Lightbringer would have been the first dragon steel, the first blood sacrifice-powered fire sword. A prototype for Valyrian steel, just as the AA / Bloodstone Emperor's corrupted and shadowed version of GEotD magic seems to be a forerunner of Valyrian magic.

The idea of the "Sword of the Evening" Dayne going to the Wall is perhaps meant to symbolize a Dayne ancestor who took AA's sword, the sword which brought evening and nightfall, to the Wall. This Dayne is most likely to be AA's son, the LH, but I am not sure of that by any means.

        

#380 Ser Knute                 

Posted Yesterday, 11:12 PM

Sly Wren, on 05 Oct 2015 - 9:11 PM, said:

This is all completely fair. So, just a few ideas--that may not solve anything. . .when I started all of this, I was mostly following the symbolism of what Jon sees and learns. Those are pretty clear. The logistics? I'm still slogging through all of that.

1. The idea of the sword coming to the Starks/LH: when the LH sword breaks as he's surrounded by Others, seems like something must have happened to save him. Otherwise--not so much last hero as "dead guy." I agree with other analysis I've read that we see this re-played with Waymar in the Game Prologue. Note that in the Prologue, when Waymar pulls his sword, the Other pauses. And watches the sword--why? What's he looking for? Gared notes how light plays on Waymar's sword, and on the Other's sword. Am assuming the light would play a certain way on whatever sword the Other is looking for.

In other words, I think someone (possibly the Children) gave the Last Hero Dawn. A new sword to replace the broken one. A sword from the Great Empire. How all this happened? I do not know. But the idea that the sword is only for a worthy wielder, NOT to be kept for ancestral passing--that we already have with Dawn. So--sending the sword to wait for the next wielder--am thinking that might be part of the conditions of using it.

As you have probably noticed, there are a LOT of "thinks" and "ifs" in all of that. Lots of guesses. But given what little we have in the books--I think they are at least not insane guesses.

2. On the "fallen star"--I'm kind of all over the place on that one. The idea that the white swords Dany sees in the HotU could have been from an earlier meteor. And the BSE chose to make his sword (since he couldn't get the white one--he was the Great Empire's version of Darkstar, maybe?) from a different substance. A magical counterfeit--with blood magic? Maybe, maybe, maybe.

I like the idea of a star from the constellation. Or Lady Barbrey's idea above re: the constellation. 

3. Bottom line: I can show what Jon learns and sees. How he's going to get the sword and how the history worked? That I'm still working on.

Now in that light it makes a bit more sense.  I suppose what's making it hard to see "literally" is that we don't have any known information that clearly designates which house the LH was from.  So, as such we associate the SoTM with the Daynes because so far, only Daynes have been directly named to wield it in the histories.  But, since we know it's an Office rather than an heirloom of sorts, that does leave open the possibility that it has been bestowed on someone other than a Dayne.  Or, perhaps in some lost to the annals of history way, the Starks had an earlier tie in with the Daynes via blood relations?  Star-Starks, Day-Daynes... I can see that being possible.

381-390

              

#381 Ser Knute

Posted Yesterday, 11:17 PM

LmL, on 05 Oct 2015 - 9:34 PM, said:

If I may....

The original "sword of the evening" was Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, which would have been the first corruption of the swords of pale fire, to go with your working hypothesis here. Lightbringer would have been the first dragon steel, the first blood sacrifice-powered fire sword. A prototype for Valyrian steel, just as the AA / Bloodstone Emperor's corrupted and shadowed version of GEotD magic seems to be a forerunner of Valyrian magic.

The idea of the "Sword of the Evening" Dayne going to the Wall is perhaps meant to symbolize a Dayne ancestor who took AA's sword, the sword which brought evening and nightfall, to the Wall. This Dayne is most likely to be AA's son, the LH, but I am not sure of that by any means.

Could this be related to Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening who was defeated by Nymeria's armies and sent to the Wall along with 5 other Kings?

LML, I don't have the e-books so I can't do the quick and easy word search for all instances of SoTE, are there more than Vorian?  It would be curious if the last one was Vorian.

        

#382 Ser Knute                 

Posted Yesterday, 11:56 PM

Interestingly is this quote from Arianne, The Queenmaker.

"That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousands ships.  She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I."

I don't believe we have a relationship with this star and the celestial body it pertains to.

Crone's Lantern = Nymeria?  Not sure, but I'm guessing a relationship to the North Star.

The Galley = that milky band behind her?  A Galley is also a ship and not just the kitchen on one.

        

#383 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 02:41 AM

Ser Knute, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

 
Could this be related to Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening who was defeated by Nymeria's armies and sent to the Wall along with 5 other Kings?
 
LML, I don't have the e-books so I can't do the quick and easy word search for all instances of SoTE, are there more than Vorian?  It would be curious if the last one was Vorian.

Sir Knute, there is a site called A search of a song of ice and fire. You can just put in your search terms and you get everything. I just found it myself and it is so helpful!

        

#384 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 03:29 AM

I've been thinking about the Sword in the Morning, Dawn and Jon. My own Lyanna as Persephone essay stipulates that Jon is a Dionysus figure: a torch bearer, the light in the night. But that's not exactly Dawn, even though it gives light. Dawn is the Sword of the Morning, not the light in the night. The light in the night is the moon. So, there must be a second sword imo that is used for the night. And I think we ough to search for swords in relation to Hightower: a torch (Dionysus as torch bearer for the Eulisian Mysteries) on top of a tower (Tower of Joy) and the words "We light the way".

What is evident though is that Arthur Dayne very much acts like a sworn sword to Jon. The references of the Sword of the Morning is still in the South with regards to Jon leads me to think that Jon's tie is not to Dawn, but the Sword in the Morning. Jon doesn't even need to get the title. All that is required is that a Sword in the Morning rises and swears himself to Jon, and that imo can only be Edric Dayne.

Edric Dayne left the BwB once Beric was dead, for the most logical reason - he was a squire to Beric. Once Beric was dead, his allegiance to the BwB was done. Meanwhile his "aunt" was in Beric's castle. Edric Dayne imo already went South to fetch his aunt and return to Starfall by the end of SoS. Edric was definitely described as a boy of honor and valiant and though he hadn't killed anybody yet, he was the boy who kept Beric from drowning and being killed against the Mountain's men. That says a lot about him.

And then we have Edric Dayne tell this story to Arya of Jon being his milk-brother. How, I don't know, but Edric had to travel to the South somehow, and there are several routes he could have taken - via the Neck, overland South passing the Gods Eye, or like Arya via Saltpans and possibly having spent a time at the Quiet Isle. At least two of those routes might have given him crucial information regarding who Jon truly is (HR or the Isle of Faces) and how Arthur was bound by oath to Jon, and once the Lady of Starfall hands him Dawn and declares him Sword in the Morning, I can see him going straight for Jon.

I think we're just searching too far by trying to shoe in Arthur as still being alive, or as Jon's possible dad, when George already hinted us at the existence of a valiant young Dayne who regards Jon as his milk-brother already. Sure, Edric Dayne would have to cover a lot of distance and traveling, but hey if Tyrion can make it from WF to the Crossroads in a fortnight... And then there's the one of the Night, Darkstar, who may play a role in Jon acquiring some sword.

 

#385 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 03:38 AM

And the Hightowers apparently at least once possessed a VS sword, called Vigilance. Its whereabouts currently is unknown. I can't but think that "vigilance" is a name that fits with a watcher on the wall. To stand "vigil".

#386 Ser Knute                 

Posted Today, 08:05 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 06 Oct 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

Sir Knute, there is a site called A search of a song of ice and fire. You can just put in your search terms and you get everything. I just found it myself and it is so helpful!

Oh nice.  It is a little limited in not being a complete phrase search but that's fine I won't complain, sifting through every return on the search parameters was kind of cool too.

Grassy@ss errr, Gracias!

        

#387 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 08:31 AM

Ser Knute, on 06 Oct 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Oh nice.  It is a little limited in not being a complete phrase search but that's fine I won't complain, sifting through every return on the search parameters was kind of cool too.

Grassy@ss errr, Gracias!

You can plug in a complete phrase, and you can filter by POV too.

        

#388 Ser Knute

Posted Today, 08:34 AM

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I've been thinking about the Sword in the Morning, Dawn and Jon. My own Lyanna as Persephone essay stipulates that Jon is a Dionysus figure: a torch bearer, the light in the night. But that's not exactly Dawn, even though it gives light. Dawn is the Sword of the Morning, not the light in the night. The light in the night is the moon. So, there must be a second sword imo that is used for the night. And I think we ough to search for swords in relation to Hightower: a torch (Dionysus as torch bearer for the Eulisian Mysteries) on top of a tower (Tower of Joy) and the words "We light the way".

What is evident though is that Arthur Dayne very much acts like a sworn sword to Jon. The references of the Sword of the Morning is still in the South with regards to Jon leads me to think that Jon's tie is not to Dawn, but the Sword in the Morning. Jon doesn't even need to get the title. All that is required is that a Sword in the Morning rises and swears himself to Jon, and that imo can only be Edric Dayne.

Edric Dayne left the BwB once Beric was dead, for the most logical reason - he was a squire to Beric. Once Beric was dead, his allegiance to the BwB was done. Meanwhile his "aunt" was in Beric's castle. Edric Dayne imo already went South to fetch his aunt and return to Starfall by the end of SoS. Edric was definitely described as a boy of honor and valiant and though he hadn't killed anybody yet, he was the boy who kept Beric from drowning and being killed against the Mountain's men. That says a lot about him.

And then we have Edric Dayne tell this story to Arya of Jon being his milk-brother. How, I don't know, but Edric had to travel to the South somehow, and there are several routes he could have taken - via the Neck, overland South passing the Gods Eye, or like Arya via Saltpans and possibly having spent a time at the Quiet Isle. At least two of those routes might have given him crucial information regarding who Jon truly is (HR or the Isle of Faces) and how Arthur was bound by oath to Jon, and once the Lady of Starfall hands him Dawn and declares him Sword in the Morning, I can see him going straight for Jon.

I think we're just searching too far by trying to shoe in Arthur as still being alive, or as Jon's possible dad, when George already hinted us at the existence of a valiant young Dayne who regards Jon as his milk-brother already. Sure, Edric Dayne would have to cover a lot of distance and traveling, but hey if Tyrion can make it from WF to the Crossroads in a fortnight... And then there's the one of the Night, Darkstar, who may play a role in Jon acquiring some sword.

I think this makes the most practical sense.  Very nice.  I've made it about halfway through the Persephone thread.  I like that too. 

        

#389 Ser Knute                 

Posted Today, 08:43 AM

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

You can plug in a complete phrase, and you can filter by POV too.

Oh I did, I typed in Sword of the Evening and checked all sources, but it would return more than just the complete phrase is what I meant.  So I'd have a lot of sentences that included Sword and Even, I was surprised at how many of those there actually are.

But I still have only found the one SotE reference in full:

The Names of the Six Kings Sent by Nymeria to the Wall, as Related in the Histories

Yorick of House Yronwood, the Bloodroyal, the richest and most powerful of the Dornish kings deposed by House Martell. Vorian of House Dayne, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne. Garrison of House Fowler, the Blind King, aged and sightless, yet still feared for his cunning. Lucifer of House Dryland, Last of His Ilk, King of the Brimstone, Lord of Hellgate Hall. Benedict of House Blackmont, who worshipped a dark god and was said to have the power to transform himself into a vulture of enormous size. Albin of House Manwoody, a troublesome madman who claimed dominion over the Red Mountains.

I could've sworn there were more than one SotE.

        

#390 Sly Wren

Posted 28 minutes ago

LmL, on 05 Oct 2015 - 9:34 PM, said:

If I may....

The original "sword of the evening" was Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, which would have been the first corruption of the swords of pale fire, to go with your working hypothesis here. Lightbringer would have been the first dragon steel, the first blood sacrifice-powered fire sword. A prototype for Valyrian steel, just as the AA / Bloodstone Emperor's corrupted and shadowed version of GEotD magic seems to be a forerunner of Valyrian magic.

The idea of the "Sword of the Evening" Dayne going to the Wall is perhaps meant to symbolize a Dayne ancestor who took AA's sword, the sword which brought evening and nightfall, to the Wall. This Dayne is most likely to be AA's son, the LH, but I am not sure of that by any means.

First paragraph: amen.

Second--I like it. Fits with the idea of the BSE being like the Darkstar of the current generation--I'm not saying they are counterparts, just (potentially) similar mindsets. Entitled. Wanting what's not theirs.

And, like you, I'm not sure that's what the Sword of the Evening was. As Ser Knute points out above--there's only one mention of the Sword of the Evening (or, at least, I could only find the one). Might just be a term of disgrace. . . or of recognition of self-failure. 

We need Martin to give us more info.

Ser Knute, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:12 PM, said:

Now in that light it makes a bit more sense.  I suppose what's making it hard to see "literally" is that we don't have any known information that clearly designates which house the LH was from.  So, as such we associate the SoTM with the Daynes because so far, only Daynes have been directly named to wield it in the histories.  But, since we know it's an Office rather than an heirloom of sorts, that does leave open the possibility that it has been bestowed on someone other than a Dayne.  Or, perhaps in some lost to the annals of history way, the Starks had an earlier tie in with the Daynes via blood relations?  Star-Starks, Day-Daynes... I can see that being possible.

Yes--the bolded is what's been milling around in my head. We played with it a bit on the last thread, too. Whether the Daynes and Starks are related--long time ago. Or if the Daynes are the guardians of the Stark sword and that's why they never "inherit" the sword. Or if the Daynes bestowed the sword onto a worthy Stark--perhaps something to do with magical blood. Or other things.

Martin's clearly bringing the Daynes in for a reason. And the Daynes like the Starks apparently, or at least they've taught Edric to like Starks. And he's now Lord of Starfall. Given that Ned at least helped to kill Arthur--something's up there. Not at all sure how much Edric knows--he doesn't seem to question Jon's parentage. Does he know more about the sword? About its possible ties to the Starks? No idea. Just more maybes.

391-400      

#391 Sly Wren                

Posted 59 minutes ago

Ser Knute, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

Interestingly is this quote from Arianne, The Queenmaker.

"That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousands ships.  She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I."

I don't believe we have a relationship with this star and the celestial body it pertains to.

Crone's Lantern = Nymeria?  Not sure, but I'm guessing a relationship to the North Star.

The Galley = that milky band behind her?  A Galley is also a ship and not just the kitchen on one.

Interesting--hadn't noticed Arianne said that. But it does fit with the "looking for identity in stars" motif. Can't find anything in the books that pins it down, yet. But will keep an eye out.

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I've been thinking about the Sword in the Morning, Dawn and Jon. My own Lyanna as Persephone essay stipulates that Jon is a Dionysus figure: a torch bearer, the light in the night. But that's not exactly Dawn, even though it gives light. Dawn is the Sword of the Morning, not the light in the night. The light in the night is the moon. So, there must be a second sword imo that is used for the night. And I think we ough to search for swords in relation to Hightower: a torch (Dionysus as torch bearer for the Eulisian Mysteries) on top of a tower (Tower of Joy) and the words "We light the way".

1. Agree that Jon (and the faithful Watch) have Dionysus imagery tied to them. But would also point out that Dawn is a liminal space--both in general and in the novels. A time withe magical transformations (Jon outside of Craster's, Sansa at the Eyrie's spiral stair). And, per the OP--the Hour of the Wolf directly precedes the dawn. "Brings" the dawn. I think it brings it via Dawn. So--a torchbearer (Jon and the Watch) with the sword brings the dawn. How? Not yet sure--Jon only sees it via his own faith--"allowed himself to hope." Am thinking that might be part of it.

To flagrantly co-opt Voice of the First Men's argument here: 

QUOTE: Regarding the light that brings... It makes sense to me that a warrior brotherhood living in darkness, facing the cold Others, would see themselves as the vanquishers of darkness, as fire, as light, etc. 



In the southwest we have a song about this precise sort of thing, actually, and it ties into my belief that GRRM ripped off a ton of tribal lore. The song is sung during a darkness that lasted so long people forgot what dawn was like...



"Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it"


"I face where the sun should rise"


"I face where the sun should set"


"Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it"



It's but one song of dozens sung in sequence, but this one colors my view of the vows quite a bit. A long night is another common motif in southwestern native lore, as are heroes who sought to bring the light.

So, a dawn brought by those with faith/vigilance/remaining true. Like the Night's Watch oath. 

2. I am very curious re: the Hightowers--and the Yronwoods, quite frankly. Both of them have some similarities in appearance to Daynes. And have similar words. The idea that the Hightowers play a role in lighting the darkness makes a lot of sense to me. And, as you say above--their sword is Vigilance. Reminds me of the Black Gate version of the Oath--the watcher on the Walls. Am assuming the Hightower would be one of the Walls. And they watch vigilantly. Maybe.

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

What is evident though is that Arthur Dayne very much acts like a sworn sword to Jon. The references of the Sword of the Morning is still in the South with regards to Jon leads me to think that Jon's tie is not to Dawn, but the Sword in the Morning. Jon doesn't even need to get the title. All that is required is that a Sword in the Morning rises and swears himself to Jon, and that imo can only be Edric Dayne.

Edric Dayne left the BwB once Beric was dead, for the most logical reason - he was a squire to Beric. Once Beric was dead, his allegiance to the BwB was done. Meanwhile his "aunt" was in Beric's castle. Edric Dayne imo already went South to fetch his aunt and return to Starfall by the end of SoS. Edric was definitely described as a boy of honor and valiant and though he hadn't killed anybody yet, he was the boy who kept Beric from drowning and being killed against the Mountain's men. That says a lot about him.

And then we have Edric Dayne tell this story to Arya of Jon being his milk-brother. How, I don't know, but Edric had to travel to the South somehow, and there are several routes he could have taken - via the Neck, overland South passing the Gods Eye, or like Arya via Saltpans and possibly having spent a time at the Quiet Isle. At least two of those routes might have given him crucial information regarding who Jon truly is (HR or the Isle of Faces) and how Arthur was bound by oath to Jon, and once the Lady of Starfall hands him Dawn and declares him Sword in the Morning, I can see him going straight for Jon.

I agree--this is a very reasonable option and one that I've considered. Would make things a bit easier in some respects. But also think that in Jon III of Storm, Jon isn't asking whom he should seek--he's asking/thinking "who am I?" Looking at the stars. So is Ghost. Asking who he is vs. all of the things and people he thought he was. Answer in the stars at the start of Jon IV: "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south." Really seems like it's saying, "that's you, Jon-boy."

But I agree: if the Sword of the Morning is supposed to rise as Edric, really seems Edric could go to Jon. Or join Jon's cause. Arthur is like a sworn shield to Jon. And Jon is the shield that guards the realms of men--with the rest of the Watch. Edric and Jon making common cause together, whether Edric or Jon is Sword of the Morning--that's an outcome that makes sense to me. And not just because it makes my head happy.

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I think we're just searching too far by trying to shoe in Arthur as still being alive, or as Jon's possible dad, when George already hinted us at the existence of a valiant young Dayne who regards Jon as his milk-brother already. Sure, Edric Dayne would have to cover a lot of distance and traveling, but hey if Tyrion can make it from WF to the Crossroads in a fortnight... And then there's the one of the Night, Darkstar, who may play a role in Jon acquiring some sword.

Yes--I'm not sold on Arthur's being alive, as I said above. I would like it. And some of the Elder Brother fits. But it would also fit Ned's grief and silence re: what happened to Arthur for Arthur to be dead. And Edric or Darkstar could be players here re: the sword. Or something else--we still don't know how the SotM is chosen. So--lots of options for my head to spin over. Sigh.

 

#392 Ser Knute                 

Posted Today, 12:23 PM

Sly Wren, on 06 Oct 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

First paragraph: amen.

Second--I like it. Fits with the idea of the BSE being like the Darkstar of the current generation--I'm not saying they are counterparts, just (potentially) similar mindsets. Entitled. Wanting what's not theirs.

And, like you, I'm not sure that's what the Sword of the Evening was. As Ser Knute points out above--there's only one mention of the Sword of the Evening (or, at least, I could only find the one). Might just be a term of disgrace. . . or of recognition of self-failure. 

We need Martin to give us more info.

Yes--the bolded is what's been milling around in my head. We played with it a bit on the last thread, too. Whether the Daynes and Starks are related--long time ago. Or if the Daynes are the guardians of the Stark sword and that's why they never "inherit" the sword. Or if the Daynes bestowed the sword onto a worthy Stark--perhaps something to do with magical blood. Or other things.

Martin's clearly bringing the Daynes in for a reason. And the Daynes like the Starks apparently, or at least they've taught Edric to like Starks. And he's now Lord of Starfall. Given that Ned at least helped to kill Arthur--something's up there. Not at all sure how much Edric knows--he doesn't seem to question Jon's parentage. Does he know more about the sword? About its possible ties to the Starks? No idea. Just more maybes.

Indeed.  I'm curious if when the Long Night began a Dayne was the one to take up the call and march north to fight this threat.  SInce the legends say that BtB was the founder of House Stark, as well as the builder of the Wall and Winterfell, it would seem that House Stark arose as a result of the Battle of the Dawn.  Now it could be that Bran was descended from Garth as per the legends, but what makes sense to me is that the southern parts of Westeros were likely the first populated, as the tales lead us to believe.  It seems to me that perhaps House Dayne and House Hightower existed first.  Curiously though, their house words We Light the Way seems like an abstract clue (not just for literary purposes), for the purposes of history.  We don't know House Dayne's words yet, but we do know of Winterfell and their words, Winter is Coming.

The Age of Heroes legend suggests that the Pact came first, then came the Long Night, then came the Others.

But I'm curious... the Pact came at the Isle of Faces through the FM and the Green Men (is there any relation to the Order of Green Hand here?).  As part of the Pact, the FM were granted all the land except for the Deep Forests, which would remain under the dominion of the CotF.  So, this suggests that a place like Winterfell may not have been part of that Pact.  Later as the Long Night falls, the LH (whomever he is and whichever House he came from) sought the aid of the CotF as per the legend.  Could the Battle of the Dawn be where Winter Fell?  Possibly.  If true it would then make sense that House Stark was founded and Winterfell and the Wall erected.  BtB also sought the aid of the CotF in building the Wall (likely for the magical imbuement).  As well, BtB is said to have been accredited with the building of Storm's End and the Hightower in Oldtown.

As Sweetsunray eluded to with House Hightower and their ancestral sword Vigilance perhaps being a source for LB or somehow related I wanted to explore ideas on where some of these ancestral Valyrian Steel Swords have gotten off to!

Vigilance was lost during the Battle of Tumbleton after Roddy the Ruin (a Dustin of the Barrowlands) killed him before himself succumbing to his wounds.  Curiously, this battle is associated with the Two Betrayers, Ulf White and Hard Hugh Hammer.

Then you have Orphan-Maker carried by Jon Roxton of House Roxton who was part of a conspiracy to kill the two betrayers for their lavish demands for turning their cloaks to Aegon II.  This sword's whereabouts also stop at Tumbleton in the second battle.

Lamentation, the ancestral sword of House Royce disappears after the Storming of the Dragonpit in KL by Ser Willum Royce who is said to have perished.

That's 3 of the of the 7 Valyrian Swords with unknown fates lost during the Dance. 

The other 4:

Blackfyre - Last known to be in possession of Daemon - possibly in Illyrio's possession

Dark Sister - Last known to be in possession of Brynden Rivers

Brightroar - Last known to be in possession of Tommen II somewhere near Valyria 

Truth - Last carried by Moredo Logare - related to a Noble Lyseni Banking family

Curiously, two of the other known VS swords: Nightfall and Longclaw have some strange relationship to the Ironborn.

Nightfall was supposedly taken from a Corsair by Dalton Greyjoy and now is in Ser Harras Harlaw's possession (one of the few IB who follow the seven?)

Longclaw, while we don't have its source, is known to have been in House Mormont's possession for 500 years, but of course we do know that Bear Island was formerly within the domain of House Hoare, the height of their power was roughly 400 years ago.  Curious little discrepancy there.  Another curiosity is their full name: House Hoare of Orkmont.  Then later you have House Mormont's founding after Rodrik Stark defeated the Ironborn ruler on Bear Island in the famed wrestling match.  Odd no?

I'm wondering if some of those swords that were lost in the Dance ended up becoming other blades through reforging?  What's more is Tobho Mott's relationship to Westeros.  He learned to Smith in Qohor as we know they've managed to retain some of the knowledge of Valyrian steel crafting from Valyria itself.  But perhaps he was sought to come to KL to reforge something as we later see with Ice?  That dagger of Baelish's comes to mind.  This is a little out there admittedly because we do know there are a lot of VS crafted weapons out in the world, but it might have some relationship to the disappearance of some of these blades that've been lost.  I fully expect we're going to see some of these blades resurface.  Blackfyre should be with the Golden Company via Bittersteel, who fled to Tyrosh with Blackfyre and Daemon's remaining sons after the defeat of Redgrass Field.

Dark Sister as we know was held by Bloodraven, but it's unclear if Egg let him take it with him to the Wall.  It would seem like he wouldn't especially with Blackfyre still dispossessed but then where did it get off to?

Sorry to go off-topic somewhat there...

        

#393 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 02:42 PM

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I've been thinking about the Sword in the Morning, Dawn and Jon. My own Lyanna as Persephone essay stipulates that Jon is a Dionysus figure: a torch bearer, the light in the night. But that's not exactly Dawn, even though it gives light. Dawn is the Sword of the Morning, not the light in the night. The light in the night is the moon. So, there must be a second sword imo that is used for the night. And I think we ough to search for swords in relation to Hightower: a torch (Dionysus as torch bearer for the Eulisian Mysteries) on top of a tower (Tower of Joy) and the words "We light the way".
 
What is evident though is that Arthur Dayne very much acts like a sworn sword to Jon. The references of the Sword of the Morning is still in the South with regards to Jon leads me to think that Jon's tie is not to Dawn, but the Sword in the Morning. Jon doesn't even need to get the title. All that is required is that a Sword in the Morning rises and swears himself to Jon, and that imo can only be Edric Dayne.
 
Edric Dayne left the BwB once Beric was dead, for the most logical reason - he was a squire to Beric. Once Beric was dead, his allegiance to the BwB was done. Meanwhile his "aunt" was in Beric's castle. Edric Dayne imo already went South to fetch his aunt and return to Starfall by the end of SoS. Edric was definitely described as a boy of honor and valiant and though he hadn't killed anybody yet, he was the boy who kept Beric from drowning and being killed against the Mountain's men. That says a lot about him.
 
And then we have Edric Dayne tell this story to Arya of Jon being his milk-brother. How, I don't know, but Edric had to travel to the South somehow, and there are several routes he could have taken - via the Neck, overland South passing the Gods Eye, or like Arya via Saltpans and possibly having spent a time at the Quiet Isle. At least two of those routes might have given him crucial information regarding who Jon truly is (HR or the Isle of Faces) and how Arthur was bound by oath to Jon, and once the Lady of Starfall hands him Dawn and declares him Sword in the Morning, I can see him going straight for Jon.
 
I think we're just searching too far by trying to shoe in Arthur as still being alive, or as Jon's possible dad, when George already hinted us at the existence of a valiant young Dayne who regards Jon as his milk-brother already. Sure, Edric Dayne would have to cover a lot of distance and traveling, but hey if Tyrion can make it from WF to the Crossroads in a fortnight... And then there's the one of the Night, Darkstar, who may play a role in Jon acquiring some sword.

I'd just like to make the point that when I read the 'elder brother' passage I was in no way looking to 'shoe in' Arthur Dayne, who I assumed was dead. The allusions to me are just as clear as any allusions to other myths in the series that I've read. Moreover, I've now located Elder Brother's personal story details to Gawaine, sometimes a separate knight but often regarded as the more English rather than French version of Lancelot.

Also, because of his healing hands while being a drunk in the past (shades of Robert and of Dontos, whose ancestors were right hand men and relatives of their kings, Orys to Targs, the Hollards to Darklyns),and his association with the ash tree in another parallel passage that Jon experiences (the three 'watchers' - trees he sees on a journey, carved by wildlings, one an ash with a drunken face, one a chestnut bare and thrusting up with a raven on a branch, and one a fierce-faced oak), I've now associated the three towers of Moat Cailin to these trees and Elder Brother to the Drunken Tower, formerly Moat Cailin's Tower of the Hand, I would suggest, and the Sword, as well as a 'watcher' (what Jon calls the trees).

I am still following up on this train of inquiry. But please don't tell me I'm shoe-ing this stuff in. I'm just trying to make logical sense of what's there already.

As for Edric, we've already discussed on the thread earlier the role he might play, including handing off the sword or working for Jon in some capacity as a Sword (though my point was he is too young to wield a greatsword) and I also said in my original post that Elder Brother might not play any role at all.

        

#394 LmL                

Posted Today, 03:44 PM

Sly Wren, on 06 Oct 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

First paragraph: amen.
 
Second--I like it. Fits with the idea of the BSE being like the Darkstar of the current generation--I'm not saying they are counterparts, just (potentially) similar mindsets. Entitled. Wanting what's not theirs.
 
And, like you, I'm not sure that's what the Sword of the Evening was. As Ser Knute points out above--there's only one mention of the Sword of the Evening (or, at least, I could only find the one). Might just be a term of disgrace. . . or of recognition of self-failure. 
 
We need Martin to give us more info.
 

Yes--the bolded is what's been milling around in my head. We played with it a bit on the last thread, too. Whether the Daynes and Starks are related--long time ago. Or if the Daynes are the guardians of the Stark sword and that's why they never "inherit" the sword. Or if the Daynes bestowed the sword onto a worthy Stark--perhaps something to do with magical blood. Or other things.
 
Martin's clearly bringing the Daynes in for a reason. And the Daynes like the Starks apparently, or at least they've taught Edric to like Starks. And he's now Lord of Starfall. Given that Ned at least helped to kill Arthur--something's up there. Not at all sure how much Edric knows--he doesn't seem to question Jon's parentage. Does he know more about the sword? About its possible ties to the Starks? No idea. Just more maybes.

I don't think the "sword of the evening" is anything official. It's just supposed to be a nickname one of them received... AND a big clue to us clever readers.

What I see is archetypes. Azor Ahai (who I think was the Bloodstone Emperor) was an original archetype figure, and since then, many people throughout history have played out some part of his archetype. Garth the Green, Nissa Nissa, the King of Winter - they are roles, and George puts people into these roles as a way of telling us about the original archetypal character. All the flaming sword people tell us something about Azor Ahai - Beric, Stannis, Jon Snow, even Thoros. Going back further, we have people like the Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, who invaded the west coast of Westeros, as AA / The BSE may have done, and wielded the sword "Nightfall." He also tired of his wives quickly, heh heh. Damon Targaryen was a usurper who set up his royal seat on Bloodstone Island in the Stepstones. He rode the red dragon Bloodwyrm and died in a dragon duel over the God's Eye. If you know my ideas about the Gods Eye representing the sun /moon conjunction, this makes perfect sense.

As for the Daynes, I see two archetypes being manifested: the sword of the morning (probably the LH, son of AA) and the sword of the evening (AA, the night-bringer). The SOTM Daynes are always valiant and noble. One married Nymeria, Arthur died fulfilling his oath, etc. Is there a third known SOTM?

Then we have the Daynes who did Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai things. There are three: Vorian Dayne, nicknamed the SOTE, who was sent to the Wall. Samwell Dayne, the "Starfire," who sacked and burned Oldtown. The fused stone fortress and the name "Battle Isle" suggest that AA the BSE did just that, fighting a battle at Oldtown, most likely burning it. And then we have Darkstar, who is "of the night." What AA type thing did he do? Well, he slashed a moon maiden across the face with a sword. Nissa was stabbed in the breast, but the actual moon was said to have a crack across its face. There are other depictions of this slashing of the moon face, but I would digress to cite them. Darkstar is also something of a traitor, of course.

So if am right in seeing this dichotomy in the historical members of house Dayne, what is George saying? I imagine that he's telling us the genes of both, the potential for either a SOTM or a SOTE exist in these bloodlines. It reminds me of Brienne's sigil, that of House Tarth - a morning sunrise and evening moonrise. Tarth's capital used to be Morne, now it is Evenfall. Venus is both the Morningstar and Evenstar, a similar idea. I think the Daynes likely contain AA's blood as well as First Men / Stark blood, which is why they manifest signs of both the evening and morning sword people.

        

#395 Brianpowers             

Posted Today, 05:47 PM

[quote name="Sly Wren" post="7376900" timestamp="1443482691"]I like this very much. Even fits in with Martin's nods towards Arthurian legends--the Empire of the Dawn as a Camelot, spoiled by a greedy, magical relative. 

I think it's very interesting that Arthur is the name of one of the most famous knights ever in the seven kingdoms, and that is the only time the name is used.

Fits with other mythologies, too, of course. But the idea that the remnant is embodied in a sword and its wielder--has that Arthurian feel.

Am interested in your phrase "darkened by blood magic"--are you thinking the extant swords were darkened? The process of making them was corrupted? The swords are tied to their wielders and only one wielder (Dawn's) remained uncorrupted? Something else?

I think Dawn is the only uncorrupted Sword from the GEotD, that the Daynes were all that was left after the usurpation of Bloodstone, who is said to have worshipped a stone fallen from sky, thrown down the true gods, married a tiger woman(CotF have Cats eyes and three black claws, dark skin dappled with paler spots like a deer, easily misconstrued as a tiger lady.) Just a possibility.

Bloodstone likely is behind the betrayal of wholesome magic leading to the corruption of all magic and the seasons.

The blood betrayal of magic, as I see it, is the catalyst that caused the long night, and we can see evidence of that betrayal in the cave of the 3 eyed crow, in niches carved in the stone, skulls look down on Bran, Wolf, Bear, Humans, Giants, and many Children skulls,(slightly off topic, but can we suppose that CotF have Black bones like Dragons, they have black claws on their three fingered hands? If this is so then they are more closely related to Dragons in that they both are magical creatures with long lives and black bones, if not in correlation, then in opposition of one another.

So, Bloodstone usurps the throne, betrays magic, and is defeated by the Last Hero, Edric Shadowchaser(Lightbringer) ending the Long Night. Edric then goes south and founds house Dayne(possible tie in to Starks). The remnants of Bloodstones people leave the ruined Great Empire and end up in Valyria to start up their dark, blood magic again. They Valyrians use Fire and Blood magic to create V.S., a corruption of the formerly glowing White Swords held by the Gemstone eyed Kings we see in Danys miscarriage dream, or Dawn is singular, and the dark valyrian steel is a new creation of the Valyrians, I lean more towards the corruption of the swords, because they are spell forged, and have spells engraved in the steel, which Dawn does not.

As for the trees, we know that the black trunked, blue leaved Undying trees were trying to steal danys life force or soul, which is what they feed upon. I think that the Weirs feed upon blood, because most ancient stories about the Weirwood have them being sacrificed to, blood is always spilt on or near the roots.

I have a theory tying all the colors of the trees together with creatures and what they all represent.

Black is Fire, White is Ice, Red is Blood/Heart, Blue is Soul.

we have Black and Red for Fire and Blood, Valyrian Corruption. Dragons

We have White and Red for Ice and Blood, Weirwood Corruption.

We have Black and Blue for Fire and Soul, HotU Tree Corruption.

We have White and Blue for Ice and Soul, the Others Corruption. Maybe CotF as well.

Meaning that before magical corruption there were two representatives

Ice and Fire(White and Black) for magic, and Heart and Soul(Red and Blue) for humanity/nature.

These things balanced one another, like Yin and Yang.

It's not entirely complete, but I think I may have something good along these lines, any and all input would be appreciated.

 

#396 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 06:01 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 06 Oct 2015 - 1:42 PM, said:

I'd just like to make the point that when I read the 'elder brother' passage I was in no way looking to 'shoe in' Arthur Dayne, who I assumed was dead. The allusions to me are just as clear as any allusions to other myths in the series that I've read. Moreover, I've now located Elder Brother's personal story details to Gawaine, sometimes a separate knight but often regarded as the more English rather than French version of Lancelot.

Also, because of his healing hands while being a drunk in the past (shades of Robert and of Dontos, whose ancestors were right hand men and relatives of their kings, Orys to Targs, the Hollards to Darklyns),and his association with the ash tree in another parallel passage that Jon experiences (the three 'watchers' - trees he sees on a journey, carved by wildlings, one an ash with a drunken face, one a chestnut bare and thrusting up with a raven on a branch, and one a fierce-faced oak), I've now associated the three towers of Moat Cailin to these trees and Elder Brother to the Drunken Tower, formerly Moat Cailin's Tower of the Hand, I would suggest, and the Sword, as well as a 'watcher' (what Jon calls the trees).

I am still following up on this train of inquiry. But please don't tell me I'm shoe-ing this stuff in. I'm just trying to make logical sense of what's there already.

As for Edric, we've already discussed on the thread earlier the role he might play, including handing off the sword or working for Jon in some capacity as a Sword (though my point was he is too young to wield a greatsword) and I also said in my original post that Elder Brother might not play any role at all.

Lady Barbrey I in no way meant any disrespect or wanted to portray your own research as shoeing-in. I know you apply the same association tactics as LmL, Sly Wren and I do. And I think it is an excellent method to figure out the books, because George writes puzzling about even the simple stuff. What I'm saying is that sometimes 'we' (and I mean 'we' not 'you') can lose ourselves into an interpretation and lose oversight of apparent plot ties. Our delving into mysteries and hints and clues and associations should not make us overlook the obvious, that is all I'm cautioning against, and I apply that cautioning to myself as well.

I accept your points of the issues it being Edric. If there had been a 5 year gap as George intended then Edric Dayne could easily return as Sword of the Morning. He'd be 17 then. Maybe he can circumvent that age issue though with Dawn's magical powers it lends to the wielder and the Sword of the Morning not necessarily being a knight (as Jon isn't one either), but rising at the hour of need, regardless of age. By the time he reappears he may be 14; that's still young, but it's the same age Jon joined the NW, and Robb left South for war when he was 15. And 14 is that age where boys can suddenly grow leaps. My own cousin of 14 is now 6 feet, 1 inch taller than myself if I don't wear heals. If Edric suddenly has a growth spurt and the Daynes don't sound like small stature people, then Edric might be tall enough to wield a greatsword. So, George could still make it work.

I apologize for making you feel as if I was criticising your research or the suggestions you made. Even though that was not my intention, I obviously made you feel unappreciated or misunderstood. It was thoughtless of me to word it in that way. I very much appreciate this type of research and analysis being done, by you, LmL, Sly Wren, and so many others.

 

#397 Brianpowers             

Posted Today, 06:10 PM

LmL, on 06 Oct 2015 - 2:44 PM, said:

I don't think the "sword of the evening" is anything official. It's just supposed to be a nickname one of them received... AND a big clue to us clever readers.  
What I see is archetypes. Azor Ahai (who I think was the Bloodstone Emperor) was an original archetype figure, and since then, many people throughout history have played out some part of his archetype. Garth the Green, Nissa Nissa, the King of Winter - they are roles, and George puts people into these roles as a way of telling us about the original archetypal character. All the flaming sword people tell us something about Azor Ahai - Beric, Stannis, Jon Snow, even Thoros. Going back further, we have people like the Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, who invaded the west coast of Westeros, as AA / The BSE may have done, and wielded the sword "Nightfall." He also tired of his wives quickly, heh heh. Damon Targaryen was a usurper who set up his royal seat on Bloodstone Island in the Stepstones. He rode the red dragon Bloodwyrm and died in a dragon duel over the God's Eye. If you know my ideas about the Gods Eye representing the sun /moon conjunction, this makes perfect sense. 
As for the Daynes, I see two archetypes being manifested: the sword of the morning (probably the LH, son of AA) and the sword of the evening (AA, the night-bringer). The SOTM Daynes are always valiant and noble. One married Nymeria, Arthur died fulfilling his oath, etc. Is there a third known SOTM? 
Then we have the Daynes who did Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai things. There are three: Vorian Dayne, nicknamed the SOTE, who was sent to the Wall. Samwell Dayne, the "Starfire," who sacked and burned Oldtown. The fused stone fortress and the name "Battle Isle" suggest that AA the BSE did just that, fighting a battle at Oldtown, most likely burning it. And then we have Darkstar, who is "of the night." What AA type thing did he do? Well, he slashed a moon maiden across the face with a sword. Nissa was stabbed in the breast, but the actual moon was said to have a crack across its face. There are other depictions of this slashing of the moon face, but I would digress to cite them. Darkstar is also something of a traitor, of course. 
So if am right in seeing this dichotomy in the historical members of house Dayne, what is George saying? I imagine that he's telling us the genes of both, the potential for either a SOTM or a SOTE exist in these bloodlines. It reminds me of Brienne's sigil, that of House Tarth - a morning sunrise and evening moonrise. Tarth's capital used to be Morne, now it is Evenfall. Venus is both the Morningstar and Evenstar, a similar idea. I think the Daynes likely contain AA's blood as well as First Men / Stark blood, which is why they manifest signs of both the evening and morning sword people.

Really like the idea of Lightbringer and Nightbringer being of the same bloodline, as we see all the time in the story, nothing is as simple as black and white. Mr. Grey area will see you now.

        

#398 Lady Dyanna            

Posted Today, 06:44 PM

LmL, on 06 Oct 2015 - 2:44 PM, said:

I don't think the "sword of the evening" is anything official. It's just supposed to be a nickname one of them received... AND a big clue to us clever readers.  

What I see is archetypes.

Spoiler

Azor Ahai (who I think was the Bloodstone Emperor) was an original archetype figure, and since then, many people throughout history have played out some part of his archetype. Garth the Green, Nissa Nissa, the King of Winter - they are roles, and George puts people into these roles as a way of telling us about the original archetypal character. All the flaming sword people tell us something about Azor Ahai - Beric, Stannis, Jon Snow, even Thoros. Going back further, we have people like the Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, who invaded the west coast of Westeros, as AA / The BSE may have done, and wielded the sword "Nightfall." He also tired of his wives quickly, heh heh. Damon Targaryen was a usurper who set up his royal seat on Bloodstone Island in the Stepstones. He rode the red dragon Bloodwyrm and died in a dragon duel over the God's Eye. If you know my ideas about the Gods Eye representing the sun /moon conjunction, this makes perfect sense.

As for the Daynes, I see two archetypes being manifested: the sword of the morning (probably the LH, son of AA) and the sword of the evening (AA, the night-bringer). The SOTM Daynes are always valiant and noble. One married Nymeria, Arthur died fulfilling his oath, etc. Is there a third known SOTM?

Then we have the Daynes who did Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai things. There are three: Vorian Dayne, nicknamed the SOTE, who was sent to the Wall. Samwell Dayne, the "Starfire," who sacked and burned Oldtown. The fused stone fortress and the name "Battle Isle" suggest that AA the BSE did just that, fighting a battle at Oldtown, most likely burning it. And then we have Darkstar, who is "of the night." What AA type thing did he do? Well, he slashed a moon maiden across the face with a sword. Nissa was stabbed in the breast, but the actual moon was said to have a crack across its face. There are other depictions of this slashing of the moon face, but I would digress to cite them. Darkstar is also something of a traitor, of course.

So if am right in seeing this dichotomy in the historical members of house Dayne, what is George saying? I imagine that he's telling us the genes of both, the potential for either a SOTM or a SOTE exist in these bloodlines. It reminds me of Brienne's sigil, that of House Tarth - a morning sunrise and evening moonrise. Tarth's capital used to be Morne, now it is Evenfall. Venus is both the Morningstar and Evenstar, a similar idea. I think the Daynes likely contain AA's blood as well as First Men / Stark blood, which is why they manifest signs of both the evening and morning sword people.

Since I can't just like stuff here, I just want to say that I agree fully with the idea of the archetypes. To take it further within these archetypes are echoes upon echoes each explaining another portion of the tale. Have you read Kingmonkey's echo essay? He argues some of the echoes that he has found. I think it goes further yet. And I have the suspicion that you have probably noticed this already. This kind of stuff is the reason why I try to take the time to read your essays!

        

#399 LmL

Posted Today, 07:05 PM

Lady Dyanna, on 06 Oct 2015 - 5:44 PM, said:

Since I can't just like stuff here, I just want to say that I agree fully with the idea of the archetypes. To take it further within these archetypes are echoes upon echoes each explaining another portion of the tale. Have you read Kingmonkey's echo essay? He argues some of the echoes that he has found. I think it goes further yet. And I have the suspicion that you have probably noticed this already. This kind of stuff is the reason why I try to take the time to read your essays!

I absolutely love KingMonkey's stuff, but I think there a couple of his that I have made a note to go back and read and have not done so. I read one about the Tower of Joy which discussed the general concept, but I don't think I've read an "echo-centric" essay, I'll have to look that up. His analysis is always fantastic, and as you say, it sounds we have similar ideas here. 

Yeah, a "like" function is sorely needed, ay? Well thanks for "liking" my comment in actuality, in any case.   If Lightbringer is also a child, then there should be either an AA / NN baby or an AA / Tiger Woman baby, or both. If the Dayne's are descendants from the Am Empress Nissa Nissa, then they probably also have the Bloodstone E / AA's genes as well. And the BSE was the Am Empresses's sister, so they had the same genes in any case. 

I have also noticed that all the gemstones George picked for the GEotD emperors come in a variety of colors, and all of them come in black as well. You'll notice we hear of black amethysts, black opals, black jade, black pearl, and of course I would submit we have black bloodstone in the greasy black stone. Black tourmaline is a thing, onyx can be black but also many other colors, etc. Is part of the idea here that there is always potential for darkness in the human soul, something like that? The problem and solution both comes from the same place? Nightbringer the sword eventually became Lightbringer for true? Did the LH right the wrongs of his father, AA, or was AA himself redeemed to play the role of LH?  

These are some of the open questions that I have. 

The red - to black transformation is an important one. The blood of fire transformed people and things comes out black, which is what the whole Lightbringer forging / black bloodstone thing is about (imo). There are scenes where the weirwood leaves, red during the day, turn black by night amidst suggestive imagery. We also have black stags, which I think are a similar concept. I have ideas about greenseers becoming transformed by fire, and imo all these things tie in to that. 

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

 [quote name="Sly Wren" post="7376900" timestamp="1443482691"]I like this very much. Even fits in with Martin's nods towards Arthurian legends--the Empire of the Dawn as a Camelot, spoiled by a greedy, magical relative. 


I think it's very interesting that Arthur is the name of one of the most famous knights ever in the seven kingdoms, and that is the only time the name is used.


 
Fits with other mythologies, too, of course. But the idea that the remnant is embodied in a sword and its wielder--has that Arthurian feel.
 
Am interested in your phrase "darkened by blood magic"--are you thinking the extant swords were darkened? The process of making them was corrupted? The swords are tied to their wielders and only one wielder (Dawn's) remained uncorrupted? Something else?


I think Dawn is the only uncorrupted Sword from the GEotD, that the Daynes were all that was left after the usurpation of Bloodstone, who is said to have worshipped a stone fallen from sky, thrown down the true gods, married a tiger woman(CotF have Cats eyes and three black claws, dark skin dappled with paler spots like a deer, easily misconstrued as a tiger lady.) Just a possibility.

Bloodstone likely is behind the betrayal of wholesome magic leading to the corruption of all magic and the seasons.
The blood betrayal of magic, as I see it, is the catalyst that caused the long night, and we can see evidence of that betrayal in the cave of the 3 eyed crow, in niches carved in the stone, skulls look down on Bran, Wolf, Bear, Humans, Giants, and many Children skulls,(slightly off topic, but can we suppose that CotF have Black bones like Dragons, they have black claws on their three fingered hands? If this is so then they are more closely related to Dragons in that they both are magical creatures with long lives and black bones, if not in correlation, then in opposition of one another.

So, Bloodstone usurps the throne, betrays magic, and is defeated by the Last Hero, Edric Shadowchaser(Lightbringer) ending the Long Night. Edric then goes south and founds house Dayne(possible tie in to Starks). The remnants of Bloodstones people leave the ruined Great Empire and end up in Valyria to start up their dark, blood magic again. They Valyrians use Fire and Blood magic to create V.S., a corruption of the formerly glowing White Swords held by the Gemstone eyed Kings we see in Danys miscarriage dream, or Dawn is singular, and the dark valyrian steel is a new creation of the Valyrians, I lean more towards the corruption of the swords, because they are spell forged, and have spells engraved in the steel, which Dawn does not.

As for the trees, we know that the black trunked, blue leaved Undying trees were trying to steal danys life force or soul, which is what they feed upon. I think that the Weirs feed upon blood, because most ancient stories about the Weirwood have them being sacrificed to, blood is always spilt on or near the roots.

I have a theory tying all the colors of the trees together with creatures and what they all represent.
Black is Fire, White is Ice, Red is Blood/Heart, Blue is Soul.
we have Black and Red for Fire and Blood, Valyrian Corruption. Dragons
We have White and Red for Ice and Blood, Weirwood Corruption.
We have Black and Blue for Fire and Soul, HotU Tree Corruption.
We have White and Blue for Ice and Soul, the Others Corruption. Maybe CotF as well.

Meaning that before magical corruption there were two representatives
Ice and Fire(White and Black) for magic, and Heart and Soul(Red and Blue) for humanity/nature.
These things balanced one another, like Yin and Yang.

It's not entirely complete, but I think I may have something good along these lines, any and all input would be appreciated.
 

These are interesting ideas, I will have to ponder. You might be on to something with the Undying associations. The fact that they want to possess Dany and her dragons says to me that they think they can world fire magic. They are overall associated with shadow and dust, as well as the spirits of the air, but the fact they want to steal the dragons says they have an affinity or ability with fire. 

Although the red of the comet is compared to fire and blood, and fire and blood often share the same red, blood which has been transformed by fire appears black, so you might be on to something there with fire = black, at least post-corruption of magic. Don't forget that the Others actually seem to have blue blood. 

Also relevant is the idea of Lightbringer drinking Nissa Nissa's blood and soul. I believe the actual sword was black, like Valyrian steel (so dark grey it looks black). I think the moon meteors were black too, but burned red, Basically, that's how I see AA's lightbringer - a black sword, burning red, which kind of fits with what you are seeing here. 

                 

#400 sweetsunray            

Posted Today, 07:15 PM

Lady Dyanna, on 06 Oct 2015 - 5:44 PM, said:

Since I can't just like stuff here, I just want to say that I agree fully with the idea of the archetypes. To take it further within these archetypes are echoes upon echoes each explaining another portion of the tale. Have you read Kingmonkey's echo essay? He argues some of the echoes that he has found. I think it goes further yet. And I have the suspicion that you have probably noticed this already. This kind of stuff is the reason why I try to take the time to read your essays!

I should read that essay. Funny because I think of Sansa, Arya, Margaery and Cat as Persephone echoes following from Lyanna, but they all differ and gain other attributes of myths (in my current research Persephone) that are close but not really alike, that's the moment GRRM especially draws from other mythologies that share similarities but are not the same...Kindof like Renly asking whether Margaery looks like Lyanna, but Ned thinking "Not really, no."

Echoes are changed by the material they encounter.

401-410

#401 LmL             

Posted Today, 07:28 PM

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 6:15 PM, said:

I should read that essay. Funny because I think of Sansa, Arya, Margaery and Cat as Persephone echoes following from Lyanna, but they all differ and gain other attributes of myths (in my current research Persephone) that are close but not really alike, that's the moment GRRM especially draws from other mythologies that share similarities but are not the same...Kindof like Renly asking whether Margaery looks like Lyanna, but Ned thinking "Not really, no."

Echoes are changed by the material they encounter.

Yeah, we have to use words like "permutations," "manifestations," and I'd even say there's a fractal nature to the way a pattern repeats itself in different ways. 

The whole persephone thing fits in with other similar myths of goddesses abducted into the underworld. The great thing about these type of myths is that they incorporate the moon as well as the cycle of the seasons, very convenient for what George is doing with moon meteors that stop the cycle of seasons and create a perpetual winter state. The second moon which was (hypothetically) destroyed in the Dawn Age became the drowned goddess when one of those meteors landed in the ocean, a kind of underworld. Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor plays the Hades role, entrapping the moon down in his realm. You could view the earth itself as the lower realm where the moon was entrapped, but the underwater / drowning aspect certainly seems like a version of this idea. The Grey King "slew" the sea dragon and possessed her fire, so it wasn't just about pulling her down from heaven. Those black meteors were PUT TO WORK, and represented some kind of fire magic that could be possessed. 

Dark lightbringer, made from black meteorites. That's the ticket. The ancient Ironborn are said to have had black weapons that drank the should of those they slew. Same idea. Lightbringer, sun drinking, light drinker, blood drinker, soul drinker. So... how did we "free" the moon goddess? How was she redeemed? Or perhaps it was just a matter of letting her spirit rest, which was entrapped in the sword? I've even speculated that the "shadow" over Asshai and the shadowlands is the "shadow" of the moon goddess in the way that a person's shadow is their ghost, and in the sense that parts of you shadow can be "bound" to things. 

        

#402 LmL                            

Posted Today, 08:17 PM

I wonder if there is any significance to the silver streak in Darkstar's hair being described as a "silver glacier." It's a very icy word, isn't it?

        

#403 sweetsunray

Posted Today, 08:27 PM

LmL, on 06 Oct 2015 - 7:17 PM, said:

I wonder if there is any significance to the silver streak in Darkstar's hair being described as a "silver glacier." It's a very icy word, isn't it?

Yup.

        

#404 Lady Dyanna            

Posted Today, 08:30 PM

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 6:15 PM, said:

 
I should read that essay. Funny because I think of Sansa, Arya, Margaery and Cat as Persephone echoes following from Lyanna, but they all differ and gain other attributes of myths (in my current research Persephone) that are close but not really alike, that's the moment GRRM especially draws from other mythologies that share similarities but are not the same...Kindof like Renly asking whether Margaery looks like Lyanna, but Ned thinking "Not really, no."
Echoes are changed by the material they encounter.

Although I believe that GRRM pulls from all of these different sources and mythologies, as I have seen you note, it's pretty clear that he doesn't do direct parallels with any of them. He just mixes and mashes them all together. I'm really starting to believe that the only way to go is to find and compare the deliberate echoes he is creating. The problem then becomes which part of the echo is truth.

LmL, on 06 Oct 2015 - 6:05 PM, said:

 
I absolutely love KingMonkey's stuff, but I think there a couple of his that I have made a note to go back and read and have not done so. I read one about the Tower of Joy which discussed the general concept, but I don't think I've read an "echo-centric" essay, I'll have to look that up. His analysis is always fantastic, and as you say, it sounds we have similar ideas here. 
 
Yeah, a "like" function is sorely needed, ay? Well thanks for "liking" my comment in actuality, in any case.   If Lightbringer is also a child, then there should be either an AA / NN baby or an AA / Tiger Woman baby, or both. If the Dayne's are descendants from the Am Empress Nissa Nissa, then they probably also have the Bloodstone E / AA's genes as well. And the BSE was the Am Empresses's sister, so they had the same genes in any case. 
 
I have also noticed that all the gemstones George picked for the GEotD emperors come in a variety of colors, and all of them come in black as well. You'll notice we hear of black amethysts, black opals, black jade, black pearl, and of course I would submit we have black bloodstone in the greasy black stone. Black tourmaline is a thing, onyx can be black but also many other colors, etc. Is part of the idea here that there is always potential for darkness in the human soul, something like that? The problem and solution both comes from the same place? Nightbringer the sword eventually became Lightbringer for true? Did the LH right the wrongs of his father, AA, or was AA himself redeemed to play the role of LH?  
 
These are some of the open questions that I have. 

The red - to black transformation is an important one. The blood of fire transformed people and things comes out black, which is what the whole Lightbringer forging / black bloodstone thing is about (imo). There are scenes where the weirwood leaves, red during the day, turn black by night amidst suggestive imagery. We also have black stags, which I think are a similar concept. I have ideas about greenseers becoming transformed by fire, and imo all these things tie in to that. 
 
 
These are interesting ideas, I will have to ponder. You might be on to something with the Undying associations. The fact that they want to possess Dany and her dragons says to me that they think they can world fire magic. They are overall associated with shadow and dust, as well as the spirits of the air, but the fact they want to steal the dragons says they have an affinity or ability with fire. 
 
Although the red of the comet is compared to fire and blood, and fire and blood often share the same red, blood which has been transformed by fire appears black, so you might be on to something there with fire = black, at least post-corruption of magic. Don't forget that the Others actually seem to have blue blood. 

Also relevant is the idea of Lightbringer drinking Nissa Nissa's blood and soul. I believe the actual sword was black, like Valyrian steel (so dark grey it looks black). I think the moon meteors were black too, but burned red, Basically, that's how I see AA's lightbringer - a black sword, burning red, which kind of fits with what you are seeing here. 

The TOJ one was the one I was thinking of. I think it's titled Puppets... It was really mostly on TOJ and Dany's tent parallel with other similar possible parallels as well. Something in the way that it was written really struck home for me, making a lot of the other parallels more clear to me. Then with some of the comments from the rest of you all it just became more and more prevalent. It wasn't just the different archetypes but the action of those representing them that explain so many of the unknowns in the back story. Unfortunately, my time has been limited lately. I started rereading trying to keep this all in mind. Think I'm on chapter 8.

 

*******************************************************

 

Just wanted to say that I love this thread! Even if I don't get the chance to participate much, seeing the ideas that have been suggested has been just great! If I could lock the bunch of you in a room together, I think you could figure the whole thing out! But who really wants to do that? What would we all talk about then??? 

        

#405 Sly Wren                    

Posted 58 minutes ago

Ser Knute, on 06 Oct 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Indeed.  I'm curious if when the Long Night began a Dayne was the one to take up the call and march north to fight this threat.  SInce the legends say that BtB was the founder of House Stark, as well as the builder of the Wall and Winterfell, it would seem that House Stark arose as a result of the Battle of the Dawn.  Now it could be that Bran was descended from Garth as per the legends, but what makes sense to me is that the southern parts of Westeros were likely the first populated, as the tales lead us to believe.  It seems to me that perhaps House Dayne and House Hightower existed first.  Curiously though, their house words We Light the Way seems like an abstract clue (not just for literary purposes), for the purposes of history.  We don't know House Dayne's words yet, but we do know of Winterfell and their words, Winter is Coming.

The Age of Heroes legend suggests that the Pact came first, then came the Long Night, then came the Others.

But I'm curious... the Pact came at the Isle of Faces through the FM and the Green Men (is there any relation to the Order of Green Hand here?).  As part of the Pact, the FM were granted all the land except for the Deep Forests, which would remain under the dominion of the CotF.  So, this suggests that a place like Winterfell may not have been part of that Pact.  Later as the Long Night falls, the LH (whomever he is and whichever House he came from) sought the aid of the CotF as per the legend.  Could the Battle of the Dawn be where Winter Fell?  Possibly.  If true it would then make sense that House Stark was founded and Winterfell and the Wall erected.  BtB also sought the aid of the CotF in building the Wall (likely for the magical imbuement).  As well, BtB is said to have been accredited with the building of Storm's End and the Hightower in Oldtown.

1. The idea that a Dayne could have been the one to march North and seek the Children seems workable. Or have been sought out by the Children. Or have been further north originally--Dorne doesn't seem all that hospitable compared to the lushness of the Riverlands, say. We know the Last Hero was seeking help from the Children when his sword broke, seems like he didn't have the right sword yet. If the Daynes already had the sword--seems like they might have been part of those sought out vs. doing the seeking. Maybe.

2. House Stark--not sure if it was founded before or after the Long Night--sounds like there were Starks before the Pact. BUT they weren't Kings. If my (and others') idea re: the earning of kingship in the North (vs. conquering) is right--would make sense that House Stark earned the title Kings of Winter via the Long Night.

And I agree--the idea that Winterfell was the sight of the final battle is a good one. Would also fit with the watcher on the walls idea: if everyone watched where they were for a while. Then moved to/created the Wall. Maybe.

Ser Knute, on 06 Oct 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

As Sweetsunray eluded to with House Hightower and their ancestral sword Vigilance perhaps being a source for LB or somehow related I wanted to explore ideas on where some of these ancestral Valyrian Steel Swords have gotten off to!

<snip> 

That's 3 of the of the 7 Valyrian Swords with unknown fates lost during the Dance. 

<snip.

Curiously, two of the other known VS swords: Nightfall and Longclaw have some strange relationship to the Ironborn.

Nightfall was supposedly taken from a Corsair by Dalton Greyjoy and now is in Ser Harras Harlaw's possession (one of the few IB who follow the seven?)

Longclaw, while we don't have its source, is known to have been in House Mormont's possession for 500 years, but of course we do know that Bear Island was formerly within the domain of House Hoare, the height of their power was roughly 400 years ago.  Curious little discrepancy there.  Another curiosity is their full name: House Hoare of Orkmont.  Then later you have House Mormont's founding after Rodrik Stark defeated the Ironborn ruler on Bear Island in the famed wrestling match.  Odd no?

1. Swords? Hopefully DarkSister1001 will show up and give her input. She knows this much better than I do.

2. Yes--the swords lost in the Dance. Reminds me again of how much "fire" consumes itself. Even magical swords. And dragons. Yet another reason I worry about Dany's getting out of these books alive.

3. The Ironborn connection--we war playing with that a while back. But I'd plum forgotten about Longclaw's and the Mormonts' Ironborn connection. You're right--would make sense if Longclaw was possibly part of the forfeit from the wrestling match (am assuming that's where you are going). Especially since the Mormonts are not a wealthy house.

And, as LmL and Lady Barbrey and others have pointed out, the Ironborn's connections to the oily black stone, their "what is dead may never die," even their traditional way of choosing a ruler--by persuasion in the Kingsmoot. Not by conquering or by inheritance. They go back to the Long Night somehow. I'm still wobbling around figuring it out. But it's there.

Ser Knute, on 06 Oct 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorry to go off-topic somewhat there...

Well, let's see: Valyrian steel swords, Long Night, Starks and Winterfell, Daynes and Hightowers, Ironborn and Longclaw--seems on topic to me. All good.

 

#406 Sly Wren                    

Posted 42 minutes ago

LmL, on 06 Oct 2015 - 2:44 PM, said:

I don't think the "sword of the evening" is anything official. It's just supposed to be a nickname one of them received... AND a big clue to us clever readers. 

What I see is archetypes. Azor Ahai (who I think was the Bloodstone Emperor) was an original archetype figure, and since then, many people throughout history have played out some part of his archetype. Garth the Green, Nissa Nissa, the King of Winter - they are roles, and George puts people into these roles as a way of telling us about the original archetypal character. All the flaming sword people tell us something about Azor Ahai - Beric, Stannis, Jon Snow, even Thoros. Going back further, we have people like the Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, who invaded the west coast of Westeros, as AA / The BSE may have done, and wielded the sword "Nightfall." He also tired of his wives quickly, heh heh. Damon Targaryen was a usurper who set up his royal seat on Bloodstone Island in the Stepstones. He rode the red dragon Bloodwyrm and died in a dragon duel over the God's Eye. If you know my ideas about the Gods Eye representing the sun /moon conjunction, this makes perfect sense.

As for the Daynes, I see two archetypes being manifested: the sword of the morning (probably the LH, son of AA) and the sword of the evening (AA, the night-bringer). The SOTM Daynes are always valiant and noble. One married Nymeria, Arthur died fulfilling his oath, etc. Is there a third known SOTM?

Then we have the Daynes who did Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai things. There are three: Vorian Dayne, nicknamed the SOTE, who was sent to the Wall. Samwell Dayne, the "Starfire," who sacked and burned Oldtown. The fused stone fortress and the name "Battle Isle" suggest that AA the BSE did just that, fighting a battle at Oldtown, most likely burning it. And then we have Darkstar, who is "of the night." What AA type thing did he do? Well, he slashed a moon maiden across the face with a sword. Nissa was stabbed in the breast, but the actual moon was said to have a crack across its face. There are other depictions of this slashing of the moon face, but I would digress to cite them. Darkstar is also something of a traitor, of course.

So if am right in seeing this dichotomy in the historical members of house Dayne, what is George saying? I imagine that he's telling us the genes of both, the potential for either a SOTM or a SOTE exist in these bloodlines. It reminds me of Brienne's sigil, that of House Tarth - a morning sunrise and evening moonrise. Tarth's capital used to be Morne, now it is Evenfall. Venus is both the Morningstar and Evenstar, a similar idea. I think the Daynes likely contain AA's blood as well as First Men / Stark blood, which is why they manifest signs of both the evening and morning sword people.

1. Agree re: the nickname element. And the focus on archetypes. Interesting that you've found 3 "Darkstarish" Daynes. We only have 3 Swords of the Morning listed. All extraordinary. One husband to Nymeria. One of the greatest knights of his time. And Arthur--a KG. The most elite of the elite. Though, without Dawn, Martin says he was beatable. Though Ned calls him the greatest knight. 

2. So--3 of each so far listed. Fits with your argument that the bloodline isn't a guarantee of "Daynish-ness." There's a large element of choice--as with all things in Martinlandia.

3. Brienne and Evenfall--I mull that over now and again, but haven't looked into it at all properly. As is, seems like Tarth and Brienne (with her blond hair and blue eyes. . . ) are going to tie in somewhere. Just not sure yet.

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 5:01 PM, said:

I apologize for making you feel as if I was criticising your research or the suggestions you made. Even though that was not my intention, I obviously made you feel unappreciated or misunderstood. It was thoughtless of me to word it in that way. I very much appreciate this type of research and analysis being done, by you, LmL, Sly Wren, and so many others.

Okay--this is one big reason why I'm loving this thread. I was afraid when I started the first one that it would devolve into squabbling since the topic is potentially controversial. But everyone's just been lovely. Case in point: right here. Splendid.

        

#407 Sly Wren

Posted 25 minutes ago

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

 [quote name="Sly Wren" post="7376900" timestamp="1443482691"]I like this very much. Even fits in with Martin's nods towards Arthurian legends--the Empire of the Dawn as a Camelot, spoiled by a greedy, magical relative. 

I think it's very interesting that Arthur is the name of one of the most famous knights ever in the seven kingdoms, and that is the only time the name is used.
 
Fits with other mythologies, too, of course. But the idea that the remnant is embodied in a sword and its wielder--has that Arthurian feel.

I Agree. As I said to LmL above, the only other Swords of the Morning we know of were remarkable. But Arthur does seem to be the best in some way. Really want to know why Ned respects him so very much. Same with why the Daynes like Ned. The Camelot of Starfall and its Arthur--yes. Martin is playing with Arthuriana in interesting ways.

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

Am interested in your phrase "darkened by blood magic"--are you thinking the extant swords were darkened? The process of making them was corrupted? The swords are tied to their wielders and only one wielder (Dawn's) remained uncorrupted? Something else?

I think Dawn is the only uncorrupted Sword from the GEotD, that the Daynes were all that was left after the usurpation of Bloodstone, who is said to have worshipped a stone fallen from sky, thrown down the true gods, married a tiger woman(CotF have Cats eyes and three black claws, dark skin dappled with paler spots like a deer, easily misconstrued as a tiger lady.) Just a possibility.

On the bolded--I think I was mostly leaning to the process' being corrupted. The story of AA making the sword--seems like it's about the process. Choosing a corrupt process because no other is available. Like the knowledge was lost? or not given to him and he was improvising? As you can tell from the question marks, I'm guessing.

But the idea that the swords themselves and/or their wielders were corrupted--that makes sense, too. And would fit the your idea that Dawn alone was left uncorrupted. The idea that that Daynes are left from the usurpation, fleeing the BSE--that's also Lady Barbrey's thought on the matter. And I'm liking it so far.

As for the Children--interesting idea. They do seem oriented to nature magic. But the idea that some of them could have been engaged in blodd magic--there are stories of their sacrificing to the trees. So--maybe.  

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

Bloodstone likely is behind the betrayal of wholesome magic leading to the corruption of all magic and the seasons.

The blood betrayal of magic, as I see it, is the catalyst that caused the long night, and we can see evidence of that betrayal in the cave of the 3 eyed crow, in niches carved in the stone, skulls look down on Bran, Wolf, Bear, Humans, Giants, and many Children skulls,(slightly off topic, but can we suppose that CotF have Black bones like Dragons, they have black claws on their three fingered hands? If this is so then they are more closely related to Dragons in that they both are magical creatures with long lives and black bones, if not in correlation, then in opposition of one another.

So, Bloodstone usurps the throne, betrays magic, and is defeated by the Last Hero, Edric Shadowchaser(Lightbringer) ending the Long Night. Edric then goes south and founds house Dayne(possible tie in to Starks). The remnants of Bloodstones people leave the ruined Great Empire and end up in Valyria to start up their dark, blood magic again. They Valyrians use Fire and Blood magic to create V.S., a corruption of the formerly glowing White Swords held by the Gemstone eyed Kings we see in Danys miscarriage dream, or Dawn is singular, and the dark valyrian steel is a new creation of the Valyrians, I lean more towards the corruption of the swords, because they are spell forged, and have spells engraved in the steel, which Dawn does not.

As for the trees, we know that the black trunked, blue leaved Undying trees were trying to steal danys life force or soul, which is what they feed upon. I think that the Weirs feed upon blood, because most ancient stories about the Weirwood have them being sacrificed to, blood is always spilt on or near the roots.

1. Agree on the archetype of Bloodstone being the corrupter. Though it seems like human will is part of it. Still, the Shadow--seems like those "touched by the Shadow" get stuck in it. Am not sure how all of that will play out. And agree that the corrupt magic is a catalyst for the Long Night. I'm not sure exactly how yet. But the basic idea--I'm right there with you.

2. On the second paragraph:  I agree. And I had not made the connection re: the engravings. You're right. No mention of them on Dawn. But would the corruption still have to have come afterwards? Or could the corrupted process now require engravings where they weren't required before?

3. Agree on the House of the Undying's having parallels with the weirwoods. Bloodraven's cave has a few similarities to the Undying. Am not sold on the trees being innately fed on blood. Could be that they are fed blood when humans and/or Children want to use them. IE: "The trees have eyes again." Like a corrupted process. Maybe.

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

I have a theory tying all the colors of the trees together with creatures and what they all represent.

Black is Fire, White is Ice, Red is Blood/Heart, Blue is Soul.

we have Black and Red for Fire and Blood, Valyrian Corruption. Dragons

We have White and Red for Ice and Blood, Weirwood Corruption.

We have Black and Blue for Fire and Soul, HotU Tree Corruption.

We have White and Blue for Ice and Soul, the Others Corruption. Maybe CotF as well.

Meaning that before magical corruption there were two representatives

Ice and Fire(White and Black) for magic, and Heart and Soul(Red and Blue) for humanity/nature.

These things balanced one another, like Yin and Yang.

It's not entirely complete, but I think I may have something good along these lines, any and all input would be appreciated.

Will have to give this some thought. I'm not sold on the colors being flat-out clear symbols. Seems like the context matters: IE: Jon notices that Ghost's eyes are different from Mel's, though both are red. So, will have to give your ideas some thought.

        

#408 Sly Wren

Posted 22 minutes ago

Lady Dyanna, on 06 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said:

Although I believe that GRRM pulls from all of these different sources and mythologies, as I have seen you note, it's pretty clear that he doesn't do direct parallels with any of them. He just mixes and mashes them all together. I'm really starting to believe that the only way to go is to find and compare the deliberate echoes he is creating. The problem then becomes which part of the echo is truth.

I agree. And then dive into the context. Martin loves to play with whatever suits his purpose. Which echoes are true? That's why we keep reading, no?

Lady Dyanna, on 06 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said:

Just wanted to say that I love this thread! Even if I don't get the chance to participate much, seeing the ideas that have been suggested has been just great! If I could lock the bunch of you in a room together, I think you could figure the whole thing out! But who really wants to do that? What would we all talk about then???

Only if you were in that room with us.  Cheers!

 

#409 Brianpowers             

Posted Yesterday, 11:40 PM

LmL, on 06 Oct 2015 - 6:05 PM, said:

I absolutely love KingMonkey's stuff, but I think there a couple of his that I have made a note to go back and read and have not done so. I read one about the Tower of Joy which discussed the general concept, but I don't think I've read an "echo-centric" essay, I'll have to look that up. His analysis is always fantastic, and as you say, it sounds we have similar ideas here. 
 
Yeah, a "like" function is sorely needed, ay? Well thanks for "liking" my comment in actuality, in any case.   If Lightbringer is also a child, then there should be either an AA / NN baby or an AA / Tiger Woman baby, or both. If the Dayne's are descendants from the Am Empress Nissa Nissa, then they probably also have the Bloodstone E / AA's genes as well. And the BSE was the Am Empresses's sister, so they had the same genes in any case. 
 
I have also noticed that all the gemstones George picked for the GEotD emperors come in a variety of colors, and all of them come in black as well. You'll notice we hear of black amethysts, black opals, black jade, black pearl, and of course I would submit we have black bloodstone in the greasy black stone. Black tourmaline is a thing, onyx can be black but also many other colors, etc. Is part of the idea here that there is always potential for darkness in the human soul, something like that? The problem and solution both comes from the same place? Nightbringer the sword eventually became Lightbringer for true? Did the LH right the wrongs of his father, AA, or was AA himself redeemed to play the role of LH?  
 
These are some of the open questions that I have. 
The red - to black transformation is an important one. The blood of fire transformed people and things comes out black, which is what the whole Lightbringer forging / black bloodstone thing is about (imo). There are scenes where the weirwood leaves, red during the day, turn black by night amidst suggestive imagery. We also have black stags, which I think are a similar concept. I have ideas about greenseers becoming transformed by fire, and imo all these things tie in to that. 
 

 
These are interesting ideas, I will have to ponder. You might be on to something with the Undying associations. The fact that they want to possess Dany and her dragons says to me that they think they can world fire magic. They are overall associated with shadow and dust, as well as the spirits of the air, but the fact they want to steal the dragons says they have an affinity or ability with fire. 
 
Although the red of the comet is compared to fire and blood, and fire and blood often share the same red, blood which has been transformed by fire appears black, so you might be on to something there with fire = black, at least post-corruption of magic. Don't forget that the Others actually seem to have blue blood. 
Also relevant is the idea of Lightbringer drinking Nissa Nissa's blood and soul. I believe the actual sword was black, like Valyrian steel (so dark grey it looks black). I think the moon meteors were black too, but burned red, Basically, that's how I see AA's lightbringer - a black sword, burning red, which kind of fits with what you are seeing here.

I saw something a while back (unsure of origin, a post here or a YouTube video) about Mel using Shireen as a blood sacrifice to resurrect Jon.

Jon learns of how she brought him back and uses Longclaw to kill Mel, infusing her internal fire into the sword. It's been a little while back and I am unsure of the rest of the theory, but if memory serves me, it was a well thought out theory with good textual evidence to back it up.

Of course I may be completely wrong about that, it may have been Dawn that Jon uses somehow, or I may have taken the one nugget I enjoyed out of an otherwise nonsensical post or video. I do like the idea of Jon sentencing Mel to die and her fire essence being absorbed by the blade he uses.

I am trying to tie it all together with the Targs Fire and Blood, Black and Red colors, the Others with their White skin and Blue Eyes, and the two trees that seem to use other colors in opposition of each other.

It was the Targaryen colors and words that got me thinking about this, especially when coupled with the ancestral sword of the first Targ king, Blackfyre.

I found that interesting as well that most of the gemstones mentioned came in a variety of colors, likely showing the versatilities of the people they represent.

The idea that the Long Night, corruption of magic and all the rest that can be attributed to BSE, was and can also be ended by people of the same bloodline is fantastic, making the entire thing somewhat cyclical, tying everything together wonderfully.

Off topic, this has been an incredibly enjoyable thread. Some very good thoughts have been tossed around here, and everyone has been respectful.

        

#410 Brianpowers             

Posted Today, 12:41 AM

Sly Wren, on 06 Oct 2015 - 9:57 PM, said:

I agree. 
As I said to LmL above, the only other Swords of the Morning we know of were remarkable. But Arthur does seem to be the best in some way. Really want to know why Ned respects him so very much. Same with why the Daynes like Ned. The Camelot of Starfall and its Arthur--yes. Martin is playing with Arthuriana in interesting ways.
 

On the bolded--I think I was mostly leaning to the process' being corrupted. The story of AA making the sword--seems like it's about the process. Choosing a corrupt process because no other is available. Like the knowledge was lost? or not given to him and he was improvising? As you can tell from the question marks, I'm guessing.

 
But the idea that the swords themselves and/or their wielders were corrupted--that makes sense, too. And would fit the your idea that Dawn alone was left uncorrupted. The idea that that Daynes are left from the usurpation, fleeing the BSE--that's also Lady Barbrey's thought on the matter. And I'm liking it so far.
 
As for the Children--interesting idea. They do seem oriented to nature magic. But the idea that some of them could have been engaged in blodd magic--there are stories of their sacrificing to the trees. So--maybe. 
 

1. Agree on the archetype of Bloodstone being the corrupter. Though it seems like human will is part of it. Still, the Shadow--seems like those "touched by the Shadow" get stuck in it. Am not sure how all of that will play out. And agree that the corrupt magic is a catalyst for the Long Night. I'm not sure exactly how yet. But the basic idea--I'm right there with you.
 
2. On the second paragraph:  I agree. And I had not made the connection re: the engravings. You're right. No mention of them on Dawn. But would the corruption still have to have come afterwards? Or could the corrupted process now require engravings where they weren't required before?
 


3. Agree on the House of the Undying's having parallels with the weirwoods. Bloodraven's cave has a few similarities to the Undying. Am not sold on the trees being innately fed on blood. Could be that they are fed blood when humans and/or Children want to use them. IE: "The trees have eyes again." Like a corrupted process. Maybe.
 




Will have to give this some thought. I'm not sold on the colors being flat-out clear symbols. Seems like the context matters: IE: Jon notices that Ghost's eyes are different from Mel's, though both are red. So, will have to give your ideas some thought.

The gemstone eyed kings holding pale fire swords from danys miscarriage/wake the dragon dream in AGoT is what makes me think Dawn is the last sword from the G.E., that or Dawn is absolutely singular, and they were previous SotM. Either way Dawn is from that ancient Empire of the Dawn, possibly as the only sword ever like it.

The Empire is even named for it. Which can also make sense of why the Valyrians tried to put spells in their steel, they were trying to make a sword like Dawn which was lost to them during the betrayal. I could see it either way.

I think they were either trying to re-create a forging process or a single magical sword that was lost to them, either would require some type of magic. The spells are important to whatever process they used to make V.S. especially if there was only the one Sword like Dawn in history, which leaves me totally on the fence of many or just one white sword.

I don't think the trees subsist entirely on blood, but I don't think they mind getting a taste either. When Catelyn first describes Ned's gods she calls them nameless, faceless gods of the forest, the corruption of the weirs may have begun with the carving of faces.

I just thought it was interesting, it is kind of close to tying many things together though. I was reading ACoK when Osha said the Comet meant Blood and Fire, and old Nan smells the comet and says it means Dragons. These things coupled with Targ colors and words and Blackfyre made me compare and contrast all the colors and what they may represent. If Dragons are Blood and Fire represented by Red and Black, then the opposite colors of White and Blue represent the Others. That in conjunction of the opposing colors of the two trees made me think I may be onto something, but only George knows why for sure, these are all guesses still.

[Sly Wren]

411-420

#411 Brianpowers             

Posted Today, 12:48 AM

BTW, this has been a wonderful thread to read through and throw ideas around in.

Absolutely enjoyable in every way, from subject matter, to the fantastic thoughts that have been introduced, and quite respectful of opposing ideas, or any ideas, and has stayed pretty much on topic, or topic adjacent at least.

Thank you Sly Wren for starting this fantastic discussion.

                 

#412 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 01:06 AM

Sly Wren, on 05 Oct 2015 - 8:30 PM, said:

Quote

This isn't an issue I'm throwing down on one way or another. Just seems like Theon's dream could be manifestations of guilt and fear. He gets some of the deaths right--Ned and Robert. But not Lyanna, Rickard, or Brandon--in real life, he didn't know how they died. He doesn't know in the dream, either. Seems like the dream builds--betrayal or more and more Starks and Stark history showing up--culminating in biggest guilt and fear--did he get Robb killed by betraying him? Robb's not beheaded. Neither is Greywind. 

So, could be prophecy--absolutely. But might also just be guilt.

I'm of two minds on this myself but it did seem like "seeing" in some way when Robb and Graywind walked in.  I also think something might be happening with Sweetrobin - his headaches, his insistence that his dreams are not just dreams - and nobody will listen to him, kind of like how Luwin wouldn't listen to Bran.  With "magic in he air", or at the hinges, there might be some transformations taking place.  If as I suspect, freshwater and earth are the Children's song, and we already have ice and fire songs, shouldn't there be songs of the sea and songs of the air?  I dont know - I'm just speculating, But Theon seems to hear Bran at one point, and it's interesting it should be Theon, though there was a godswood there.  Still, Bran is a fisher king figure too, very connected to water through the Tullys - it seems right somehow that Theon might be more receptive to him.  Just throwin' it out there.

Quote

I think, though, that Sansa is becoming mothering. And the she-wolf (Ladylike she wolf) we see in her first POV is showing up again. So, not becoming like Cat per se, but fulfilling Cat's role eventually. This is just a guess with half-worked out info. But--it's my opinion for now. Subject to sudden and immediate c

I just read the chapter with Sweetrobin snuggling up to her (ew), asking are you my mother now?  And she replies I guess I am.  I heard on another thread that Elio/Linda say people are going to be very surprised by something she does.  I hope she doesn't inadvertently, or in collaboration with Petyr, kill him with that sleeping stuff. I think that would shock just about everybody, whether you're pro Sansa getting her groove back or not.  Worst thing I could think of, don't mind me!  I've always rooted for Sansa to become the next (idealized) Queen Elizabeth I (who spent her early years in a very similar situation and emerged the stronger for it), but while she seems to make steps towards it, she also seems to take steps backwards so I'm not seeing it yet in the books, and I think the shows might be taking her in a different direction from George just by him naming her Alayne in the sections.  Kind of ominous. 

Quote

On Cat's mindset--single-minded, yes. But also--less human. If I remember correctly (always a risky proposition), Demeter goes into deep mourning after losing her child, searching and descending into the underworld.  Not  a killing spree. I completely agree that Martin is using some of the Demeter and Persephone symbols and myths with Cat and her girls. But he's also twisting and changing it, too. Cat is not likely to see a restoration of self. She's not frozen the world. She's hunting its members. Seems like these changes might change how the resolution will work out...The "restoration" of Cat is not restorative. She's a revenant of sorts. And, based on Beric's experience, Cat has no hope of recovery...The "restoration" of Cat is not restorative. She's a revenant of sorts. And, based on Beric's experience, Cat has no hope of recovery.

Yes, that's how I read it too - a bit of a reversal because of meshing myths. This is a different kind of Hell than the underworld the Starks inhabit or represent I think.   I am going back in Feast to read Brienne's story line again, just her, because I think we literally see her travel through Hel to the heart of it, a stone heart in place of a mother's heart.  Throughout she meets people who say they are descended from lords or hands or kings in the past from tavern wenches to outlaws - the ghosts of the past hanging heavy here.  Ghosts of the dead everywhere in memory and the land itself, juxtaposed with real dead people.  The first reference is really to Dontos the fool, who we learn is the last of his line, all the Darklyns and Hollards having been horribly obliterated after Duskendale.  Hollards were the Hands, the stewards and master-at-arms, hereditarily officed and related to the Darklyns, who were once kings.  Then we get a list of bastard lines, then kings again, all of them poor people, bastards, outlaws now.  The ending characters though are the critical ones - she visits the Quiet Isle, where not only the Hound is a Kingsguard, formerly Joffrey's right-hand man, but also as I say someone who might have been Rhaegar's right hand man and former Kingsguard, mirroring Dontos at the beginning of the journey.  Then they run into Gendry, who if his father had legitimized him - and Robert may have if he knew of the Lannister bastards - would be the rightful king right now.  But he worships Rh'llor!  And then that hellhound scene with Biter - gruesome - and Brienne is in literal hell with her face eaten up now as badly as the Hound's, and then she meets the Queen of Hell herself.  I wasn't looking for any of this when I first read it, or even lately on my second read, so I'm just pulling in what I remember, but there is a pattern there I believe, and I don't think I will see it clearly until I close read and look at it as a whole. Riding into the whole mess is Jaime, another Kingsguard, but also Kingslayer, father of two kings, to save or be killed by Brienne, a Kingsguard herself (to Renly).  Something more than I've seen so far - the underworld, the inversion, the Kingsguard replication, the wasteland, kings to commoners - is being said here.

        

#413 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted Today, 01:13 AM

LmL, on 05 Oct 2015 - 9:34 PM, said:

If I may....

The original "sword of the evening" was Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, which would have been the first corruption of the swords of pale fire, to go with your working hypothesis here. Lightbringer would have been the first dragon steel, the first blood sacrifice-powered fire sword. A prototype for Valyrian steel, just as the AA / Bloodstone Emperor's corrupted and shadowed version of GEotD magic seems to be a forerunner of Valyrian magic.

The idea of the "Sword of the Evening" Dayne going to the Wall is perhaps meant to symbolize a Dayne ancestor who took AA's sword, the sword which brought evening and nightfall, to the Wall. This Dayne is most likely to be AA's son, the LH, but I am not sure of that by any means.

Yes, it's foggy, and this could be quite right.  I like Sir Knute am doubtful of the Dawn was Ice scenario.  And honestly, I'm not quite sure that the whole Great Empire of the Dawn myth is not just a reflection of what went on in Westeros - i.e, the original "sin", the BSE, blood betrayal, etc. happened in Westeros.  The whole of Yi Ti is an inversion of Westeros.  But I do think it's separate, a shared history for both continents.  

        

#414 Lady Barbrey

Posted Today, 01:40 AM

Sly Wren, on 06 Oct 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Interesting--hadn't noticed Arianne said that. But it does fit with the "looking for identity in stars" motif. Can't find anything in the books that pins it down, yet. But will keep an eye out.

1. Agree that Jon (and the faithful Watch) have Dionysus imagery tied to them. But would also point out that Dawn is a liminal space--both in general and in the novels. A time withe magical transformations (Jon outside of Craster's, Sansa at the Eyrie's spiral stair). And, per the OP--the Hour of the Wolf directly precedes the dawn. "Brings" the dawn. I think it brings it via Dawn. So--a torchbearer (Jon and the Watch) with the sword brings the dawn. How? Not yet sure--Jon only sees it via his own faith--"allowed himself to hope." Am thinking that might be part of it.

To flagrantly co-opt Voice of the First Men's argument here: 

QUOTE: Regarding the light that brings... It makes sense to me that a warrior brotherhood living in darkness, facing the cold Others, would see themselves as the vanquishers of darkness, as fire, as light, etc.

 

In the southwest we have a song about this precise sort of thing, actually, and it ties into my belief that GRRM ripped off a ton of tribal lore. The song is sung during a darkness that lasted so long people forgot what dawn was like...



"Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it"


"I face where the sun should rise"


"I face where the sun should set"


"Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it"



It's but one song of dozens sung in sequence, but this one colors my view of the vows quite a bit. A long night is another common motif in southwestern native lore, as are heroes who sought to bring the light.

So, a dawn brought by those with faith/vigilance/remaining true. Like the Night's Watch oath. 

2. I am very curious re: the Hightowers--and the Yronwoods, quite frankly. Both of them have some similarities in appearance to Daynes. And have similar words. The idea that the Hightowers play a role in lighting the darkness makes a lot of sense to me. And, as you say above--their sword is Vigilance. Reminds me of the Black Gate version of the Oath--the watcher on the Walls. Am assuming the Hightower would be one of the Walls. And they watch vigilantly. Maybe.

I agree--this is a very reasonable option and one that I've considered. Would make things a bit easier in some respects. But also think that in Jon III of Storm, Jon isn't asking whom he should seek--he's asking/thinking "who am I?" Looking at the stars. So is Ghost. Asking who he is vs. all of the things and people he thought he was. Answer in the stars at the start of Jon IV: "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south." Really seems like it's saying, "that's you, Jon-boy."

But I agree: if the Sword of the Morning is supposed to rise as Edric, really seems Edric could go to Jon. Or join Jon's cause. Arthur is like a sworn shield to Jon. And Jon is the shield that guards the realms of men--with the rest of the Watch. Edric and Jon making common cause together, whether Edric or Jon is Sword of the Morning--that's an outcome that makes sense to me. And not just because it makes my head happy.

Yes--I'm not sold on Arthur's being alive, as I said above. I would like it. And some of the Elder Brother fits. But it would also fit Ned's grief and silence re: what happened to Arthur for Arthur to be dead. And Edric or Darkstar could be players here re: the sword. Or something else--we still don't know how the SotM is chosen. So--lots of options for my head to spin over. Sigh.

I'm beginning to think that the original Night's Watch - founded before the Wall was built - might have been the Order of the Green Hand or something like it.  I had told you that Moat Cailin - which has the Drunkard's Tower, the Children's Tower, and the Gatehouse Tower - is paralleled by the three carved "watchers", the trees recently carved by wildlings that Jon sees in sequence.  I think the Drunkard's Tower (Ash) is the Hand's Tower, and the Gatehouse Tower (associated with the furious oak tree) - vigilance - might be the Hightowers.  What is a hand in terms of a king?  It's his right hand man, the one that holds a pen or a sword.  What's a left-hand man for a king - the one who holds the shield (and moreover left is also bar sinister works in secret? just as the Hightowers did with the Targs leading to the Dance, just as Leyton and his daughter are holed up in the Hightower working on something sinister, secret right now? guard the realms of mean, the NW vow - the shield in the darkness?)     

The Walls plural - Moat Cailin could well be a second set of walls for the Long Night if the Others reached that far - or against fire or sea people.  Heck I don't know, but will keep in the back of my head.

        

#415 LmL                

Posted Today, 02:16 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

I'm beginning to think that the original Night's Watch - founded before the Wall was built - might have been the Order of the Green Hand or something like it.  I had told you that Moat Cailin - which has the Drunkard's Tower, the Children's Tower, and the Gatehouse Tower - is paralleled by the three carved "watchers", the trees recently carved by wildlings that Jon sees in sequence.  I think the Drunkard's Tower (Ash) is the Hand's Tower, and the Gatehouse Tower (associated with the furious oak tree) - vigilance - might be the Hightowers.  What is a hand in terms of a king?  It's his right hand man, the one that holds a pen or a sword.  What's a left-hand man for a king - the one who holds the shield (and moreover left is also bar sinister works in secret? just as the Hightowers did with the Targs leading to the Dance, just as Leyton and his daughter are holed up in the Hightower working on something sinister, secret right now? guard the realms of mean, the NW vow - the shield in the darkness?)     
 
The Walls plural - Moat Cailin could well be a second set of walls for the Long Night if the Others reached that far - or against fire or sea people.  Heck I don't know, but will keep in the back of my head.

Ooh, you're singing my song now Lady Babs!

What if I told you... I've uncovered secret evidence that the Last Hero's party of 12 were all greenseers from the sacred order of green men???  The order of the green hand certainly has some connection to the green men, which we can't be certain of exactly, but the point remains. I have been fairly convinced for a long time that the original NW were all greenseers, and at some point, undead / fire transformed greenseers... but that's another part of the story. I'm excited to hear you come to this conclusion a different way, because I'm pretty sold on it. Basically, when the Last Hero's friends "died," they became Coldhands style undead greenseers, or perhaps a fiery version of him. Not sure exactly, but the point is - they became undead greenseers. Which means they had to be greenseers to begin with.

I'm also referring to a specific chapter in ADWD, the trip to the weirwood grove of 9 to swear in 6 new black brothers, which I believe is an extended metaphor about the LH going north. All his friends are greenseers and most are associated with the Reach. The LH seems to have been a sacrifice of some kind. But that doesn't mean he stayed dead, of course.

 

#416 Lady Barbrey            

Posted Today, 02:53 AM

sweetsunray, on 06 Oct 2015 - 5:01 PM, said:

Lady Barbrey I in no way meant any disrespect or wanted to portray your own research as shoeing-in. I know you apply the same association tactics as LmL, Sly Wren and I do. And I think it is an excellent method to figure out the books, because George writes puzzling about even the simple stuff. What I'm saying is that sometimes 'we' (and I mean 'we' not 'you') can lose ourselves into an interpretation and lose oversight of apparent plot ties. Our delving into mysteries and hints and clues and associations should not make us overlook the obvious, that is all I'm cautioning against, and I apply that cautioning to myself as well.

I accept your points of the issues it being Edric. If there had been a 5 year gap as George intended then Edric Dayne could easily return as Sword of the Morning. He'd be 17 then. Maybe he can circumvent that age issue though with Dawn's magical powers it lends to the wielder and the Sword of the Morning not necessarily being a knight (as Jon isn't one either), but rising at the hour of need, regardless of age. By the time he reappears he may be 14; that's still young, but it's the same age Jon joined the NW, and Robb left South for war when he was 15. And 14 is that age where boys can suddenly grow leaps. My own cousin of 14 is now 6 feet, 1 inch taller than myself if I don't wear heals. If Edric suddenly has a growth spurt and the Daynes don't sound like small stature people, then Edric might be tall enough to wield a greatsword. So, George could still make it work.

I apologize for making you feel as if I was criticising your research or the suggestions you made. Even though that was not my intention, I obviously made you feel unappreciated or misunderstood. It was thoughtless of me to word it in that way. I very much appreciate this type of research and analysis being done, by you, LmL, Sly Wren, and so many others.

My apologies for overreacting.  I was very self-conscious about that post as it posited a "he's alive" scenario of someone we thought dead, and I tend to avoid those posts myself. However, there was too much evidence there to just ignore it, and I'm actually mostly convinced of it if even for future literary analysts to one day say, hey wait a minute!  My original thoughts on Edric were presented on Sly Wren's thread; before I read her thread and everyone's thoughts that Jon could possibly be a Sword of the Morning I had thought the next SotM would be Edric as a young Galahad figure, proving his "worthiness" on his adventures with Beric D.  After I started reading, I began thinking of Jon instead, particularly that image SW presents where he asks who he is and the sword of the morning shortly afterwards appears.  Very much like Sansa praying for a true knight, Dontos shows up, she thinks it's him, not knowing it's Sandor when he shows up.  We might actually see Jon wielding some special "lightbringer" sword before he or someone else realizes the truth and switching to the SotM (or even vice versa), and they might be too late.  Or, even more likely, everyone thinks the answer is "dragons" and it's really Jon.  That's what I think anyway.  Edric is going to be a plot switch and bait in the same way, I think.  I have some tall nephews too but my understanding is that greatswords are too heavy for many full-grown men, like Ned, so it seemed reasonable to suppose Edric might have been born a little too late.

Darkstar is definitely a Mordred figure.  Of the night, I was raised on venom.  Please.  Mordred abducted Queen Guinevere and stole Excalibur. Darkstar has already stolen a princess and will very likely go on to do some version of stealing Dawn.  He is too over the top for me, actually - the parallels are too obvious, so I think he's got to be a red herring.  Maybe provide some humour.  But one never knows.    Same could be said about Elder Brother, though I don't think so.  He's part of a sequence of ex hands, ex kingsguards, bastard true kings, and descendants of former kings in Brienne's journey, and not obvious to most of us who've read Arthuriana or we'd see more threads about this possibility.  He only stood out to me because he's on the Seven's version of Avalon, an "other-world" in Brienne's journey to the heart of the "underworld".  (This Avalon, btw, corresponds to the Isles of the Blessed in the Greek underworld, where heroes go, and can choose to be reborn up to three times - both Avalon and the Isles of the Blessed have similar descriptions and are sometimes called the "Fortunate Isle(s).  So I guess this is a fitting spot for the island after all.  I have already recognized one prior Lancelot configuration for Arthur as a Lancelot figure - Gawain - so I guess if there are other Lancelot incaranations in that passage I didn't spot - such as Guilchmai, then Arthur Dayne won't be reborn

But hold on, these are brothers of the seven, as heroes do they have seven lives? Beric Dondarrian had 7 lives, but he gave one to Cat.  Is that 7th ruby Elder Brother is waiting for,  Cat?  Beric's 7th "red" life? On a metaphysical level I mean?  So instead of Beric, a hero, being "reborn"  into time, Thoros kind of stole those lives away with fire resurrections - hmm.  That's why the anomaly?  It only works for heroes?    Got to think about this as it just occurred to me.  If this is true, then Jon cannot be resurrected with fire magic.  It will diminish him like Beric.)

Anyway, no worries at all.  All is good!    

        

#417 Lady Barbrey            

Posted Today, 02:59 AM

Sly Wren, on 06 Oct 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

I agree. And then dive into the context. Martin loves to play with whatever suits his purpose. Which echoes are true? That's why we keep reading, no?

Only if you were in that room with us.  Cheers!

I second Sly Wren, Lady D!

        

#418 Lady Barbrey            

Posted Today, 03:41 AM

LmL, on 07 Oct 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

Ooh, you're singing my song now Lady Babs!

What if I told you... I've uncovered secret evidence that the Last Hero's party of 12 were all greenseers from the sacred order of green men???  The order of the green hand certainly has some connection to the green men, which we can't be certain of exactly, but the point remains. I have been fairly convinced for a long time that the original NW were all greenseers, and at some point, undead / fire transformed greenseers... but that's another part of the story. I'm excited to hear you come to this conclusion a different way, because I'm pretty sold on it. Basically, when the Last Hero's friends "died," they became Coldhands style undead greenseers, or perhaps a fiery version of him. Not sure exactly, but the point is - they became undead greenseers. Which means they had to be greenseers to begin with.

I'm also referring to a specific chapter in ADWD, the trip to the weirwood grove of 9 to swear in 6 new black brothers, which I believe is an extended metaphor about the LH going north. All his friends are greenseers and most are associated with the Reach. The LH seems to have been a sacrifice of some kind. But that doesn't mean he stayed dead, of course.

That is just ... sinister!  

I can buy they were greenseers, but I thought more likely protectors of greenseers, at least at Moat Cailin.  The nine sisters (I see nine weirwoods as represenation of nine sisters rather than seven brothers because of the elder brother avalon thing) - Avalon should be ruled by nine sisters - including Morgan LeFay (hey there Mel).  Because Mel was sold off in childhood, I wondered if she and all her sisters had been or otherwise dispersed.  I looked for Mor names and Mel names and there are a number that would fit the bill.  

Anyway, the number nine should be associated with the nine sisters of Avalon or nine diamonds in a constellation with the biggest one in the middle (this too comes from Arthuriana).  

Ever noticed the lack of diamonds in all those gemstone people? Maybe I missed them. That's because diamonds, I think, are associated with Fisher Queens.  I am going to do a search right now.  I can't remember where I saw diamonds in the text, or if I saw them at all.

Back to your theory - I am really interested, but don't see how you get to fire greenseers (although I kinda did myself already because of Mel, and already posited the ice greenseer/sorceror theory) so would love to know.

ETA: white diamonds (I'm assuming white because they are not mentioned with another colour prefixing them are mentioned only once in the entire series, when Cersei dresses all in white and wears an emerald and diamond necklace, making her look innocent .  Every other time diamonds are mentioned, and there are quite a few, they are black.  Interesting in a series that describes gems all the time.

                 

#419 LmL                 

Posted Today, 04:26 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

That is just ... sinister!  
 
I can buy they were greenseers, but I thought more likely protectors of greenseers, at least at Moat Cailin.  The nine sisters (I see nine weirwoods as represenation of nine sisters rather than seven brothers because of the elder brother avalon thing) - Avalon should be ruled by nine sisters - including Morgan LeFay (hey there Mel).  Because Mel was sold off in childhood, I wondered if she and all her sisters had been or otherwise dispersed.  I looked for Mor names and Mel names and there are a number that would fit the bill.  
 
Anyway, the number nine should be associated with the nine sisters of Avalon or nine diamonds in a constellation with the biggest one in the middle (this too comes from Arthuriana).  
 
Ever noticed the lack of diamonds in all those gemstone people? Maybe I missed them. That's because diamonds, I think, are associated with Fisher Queens.  I am going to do a search right now.  I can't remember where I saw diamonds in the text, or if I saw them at all.
 
Back to your theory - I am really interested, but don't see how you get to fire greenseers (although I kinda did myself already because of Mel, and already posited the ice greenseer/sorceror theory) so would love to know.
 
ETA: white diamonds (I'm assuming white because they are not mentioned with another colour prefixing them are mentioned only once in the entire series, when Cersei dresses all in white and wears an emerald and diamond necklace, making her look innocent .  Every other time diamonds are mentioned, and there are quite a few, they are black.  Interesting in a series that describes gems all the time.

We'll have to talk about fiery greenseers another time, as it's a whole thing on its own, lots of text to cite, etc. I've separately picked up clues that the following are true: the LH's party were all greenseers; that the original NW were fire mages; and that some greenseers transformed into fire mages around the time of the LN. Oh, and also that rebellious by,an greenseers caused the moon comet apocalypse, and that Azor Ahai was one such greenseers who became transformed by fire. I've seen all these ideas suggested separately, and it took a while to make sense of some of them, but when viewed together I think they tell a coherent story.

As for diamonds, the sword of the morning constellation of course has the white diamond in its hilt; the black diamond is specifically to describe dragon's teeth. The winter wonderland scene with Jon outside Crasters - does that have sparkling like diamond description?

        

#420 LmL                 

Posted Today, 04:37 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

My apologies for overreacting.  I was very self-conscious about that post as it posited a "he's alive" scenario of someone we thought dead, and I tend to avoid those posts myself. However, there was too much evidence there to just ignore it, and I'm actually mostly convinced of it if even for future literary analysts to one day say, hey wait a minute!  My original thoughts on Edric were presented on Sly Wren's thread; before I read her thread and everyone's thoughts that Jon could possibly be a Sword of the Morning I had thought the next SotM would be Edric as a young Galahad figure, proving his "worthiness" on his adventures with Beric D.  After I started reading, I began thinking of Jon instead, particularly that image SW presents where he asks who he is and the sword of the morning shortly afterwards appears.  Very much like Sansa praying for a true knight, Dontos shows up, she thinks it's him, not knowing it's Sandor when he shows up.  We might actually see Jon wielding some special "lightbringer" sword before he or someone else realizes the truth and switching to the SotM (or even vice versa), and they might be too late.  Or, even more likely, everyone thinks the answer is "dragons" and it's really Jon.  That's what I think anyway.  Edric is going to be a plot switch and bait in the same way, I think.  I have some tall nephews too but my understanding is that greatswords are too heavy for many full-grown men, like Ned, so it seemed reasonable to suppose Edric might have been born a little too late.
 
Darkstar is definitely a Mordred figure.  Of the night, I was raised on venom.  Please.  Mordred abducted Queen Guinevere and stole Excalibur. Darkstar has already stolen a princess and will very likely go on to do some version of stealing Dawn.  He is too over the top for me, actually - the parallels are too obvious, so I think he's got to be a red herring.  Maybe provide some humour.  But one never knows.    Same could be said about Elder Brother, though I don't think so.  He's part of a sequence of ex hands, ex kingsguards, bastard true kings, and descendants of former kings in Brienne's journey, and not obvious to most of us who've read Arthuriana or we'd see more threads about this possibility.  He only stood out to me because he's on the Seven's version of Avalon, an "other-world" in Brienne's journey to the heart of the "underworld".  (This Avalon, btw, corresponds to the Isles of the Blessed in the Greek underworld, where heroes go, and can choose to be reborn up to three times - both Avalon and the Isles of the Blessed have similar descriptions and are sometimes called the "Fortunate Isle(s).  So I guess this is a fitting spot for the island after all.  I have already recognized one prior Lancelot configuration for Arthur as a Lancelot figure - Gawain - so I guess if there are other Lancelot incaranations in that passage I didn't spot - such as Guilchmai, then Arthur Dayne won't be reborn   But hold on, these are 7 brothers, Beric Dondarrian had 7 lives, but he gave one to Cat.  Is that 7th ruby Elder Brother is waiting for Cat?  On a metaphysical level I mean?)
 
Anyway, no worries at all.  All is good!

Just wanted to say I predicted Darkstar stealing Dawn a looooong time ago without any of your fancy, knees-bent running around you silly Arthurian ka-niggots!! I wave my private parts at your --- oh sorry, something triggered a Monty Python tirade. Apologies, I have John Cleese Tourett's, it's a very rare and silly disease.

Kidding aside, I just realized something about the silver glacier Darkstar hairdo thing. There are some similarities in the descriptions of the Wall and the Giant's Lance / Alyssa's tears. The entire Eryrie chain of castles is symbolizing something, I feel certain, and much of it is very icy. Now, whatever you think about Dawn being original Ice, we should all agree that the Wall is used as a symbol of Dawn, Lightbringer, or both. So listen to these quotes, and think of Dawn as a white sword in the darkness, think about the silver glacier surrounded by black hair.

Quote

Still, it was nothing that Tyrion could not manage. He looked off to the east and west, at the Wall stretching before him, a vast white road with no beginning and no end and a dark abyss on either side. West, he decided, for no special reason, and he began to walk that way, following the pathway nearest the north edge, where the gravel looked freshest. His bare cheeks were ruddy with the cold, and his legs complained more loudly with every step, but Tyrion ignored them. The wind swirled around him, gravel crunched beneath his boots, while ahead the white ribbon followed the lines of the hills, rising higher and higher, until it was lost beyond the western horizon. He passed a massive catapult, as tall as a city wall, its base sunk deep into the Wall. The throwing arm had been taken off for repairs and then forgotten; it lay there like a broken toy, half- embedded in the ice.
AGOT, TYRION

Quote

The Vale was narrow here, no more than a half day’s ride across, and the northern mountains seemed so close that Catelyn could almost reach out and touch them. Looming over them all was the jagged peak called the Giant’s Lance, a mountain that even mountains looked up to, its head lost in icy mists three and a half miles above the valley floor. Over its massive western shoulder flowed the ghost torrent of Alyssa’s Tears. Even from this distance, Catelyn could make out the shining silver thread, bright against the dark stone.

When her uncle saw that she had stopped, he moved his horse closer and pointed. “It’s there, beside Alyssa’s Tears. All you can see from here is a flash of white every now and then, if you look hard and the sun hits the walls just right.” 

Seven towers , Ned had told her, like white daggers thrust into the belly of the sky, so high you can stand on the parapets and look down on the clouds.
AGOT, CATELYN

 

421-430

#421 Lady Barbrey                       

Posted 07 October 2015 - 04:37 AM

LmL, on 07 Oct 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

We'll have to talk about fiery greenseers another time, as it's a whole thing on its own, lots of text to cite, etc. I've separately picked up clues that the following are true: the LH's party were all greenseers; that the original NW were fire mages; and that some greenseers transformed into fire mages around the time of the LN. Oh, and also that rebellious by,an greenseers caused the moon comet apocalypse, and that Azor Ahai was one such greenseers who became transformed by fire. I've seen all these ideas suggested separately, and it took a while to make sense of some of them, but when viewed together I think they tell a coherent story.

As for diamonds, the sword of the morning constellation of course has the white diamond in its hilt; the black diamond is specifically to describe dragon's teeth. The winter wonderland scene with Jon outside Crasters - does that have sparkling like diamond description?

Lots of diamond metaphors but no diamonds except once.

Lots of mention of black diamonds. Carbonero.  Thought you might get a kick out of this if you haven't seen it.  

Extraterrestrial origin hypothesis[edit]

Supporters of an extraterrestrial origin of carbonados, such as Stephen Haggerty, a geoscientist from Florida International University, propose that their material source was asupernova which occurred at least 3.8 billion years ago. After coalescing and drifting through outer space for about one and a half billion years, a large mass fell to earth as ameteorite approximately 2.3 billion years ago, possibly fragmenting during entry into the Earth's atmosphere, and impacting in a region which would much later split into Braziland the Central African Republic, the only two known locations of carbonado deposits.[6]           

#422 Lady Barbrey

Posted 07 October 2015 - 04:56 AM

Double 

        

#423 sweetsunray               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 05:10 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

My apologies for overreacting.  I was very self-conscious about that post as it posited a "he's alive" scenario of someone we thought dead, and I tend to avoid those posts myself. However, there was too much evidence there to just ignore it, and I'm actually mostly convinced of it if even for future literary analysts to one day say, hey wait a minute!  My original thoughts on Edric were presented on Sly Wren's thread; before I read her thread and everyone's thoughts that Jon could possibly be a Sword of the Morning I had thought the next SotM would be Edric as a young Galahad figure, proving his "worthiness" on his adventures with Beric D.  After I started reading, I began thinking of Jon instead, particularly that image SW presents where he asks who he is and the sword of the morning shortly afterwards appears.  Very much like Sansa praying for a true knight, Dontos shows up, she thinks it's him, not knowing it's Sandor when he shows up.  We might actually see Jon wielding some special "lightbringer" sword before he or someone else realizes the truth and switching to the SotM (or even vice versa), and they might be too late.  Or, even more likely, everyone thinks the answer is "dragons" and it's really Jon.  That's what I think anyway.  Edric is going to be a plot switch and bait in the same way, I think.  I have some tall nephews too but my understanding is that greatswords are too heavy for many full-grown men, like Ned, so it seemed reasonable to suppose Edric might have been born a little too late.

Darkstar is definitely a Mordred figure.  Of the night, I was raised on venom.  Please.  Mordred abducted Queen Guinevere and stole Excalibur. Darkstar has already stolen a princess and will very likely go on to do some version of stealing Dawn.  He is too over the top for me, actually - the parallels are too obvious, so I think he's got to be a red herring.  Maybe provide some humour.  But one never knows.    Same could be said about Elder Brother, though I don't think so.  He's part of a sequence of ex hands, ex kingsguards, bastard true kings, and descendants of former kings in Brienne's journey, and not obvious to most of us who've read Arthuriana or we'd see more threads about this possibility.  He only stood out to me because he's on the Seven's version of Avalon, an "other-world" in Brienne's journey to the heart of the "underworld".  (This Avalon, btw, corresponds to the Isles of the Blessed in the Greek underworld, where heroes go, and can choose to be reborn up to three times - both Avalon and the Isles of the Blessed have similar descriptions and are sometimes called the "Fortunate Isle(s).  So I guess this is a fitting spot for the island after all.  I have already recognized one prior Lancelot configuration for Arthur as a Lancelot figure - Gawain - so I guess if there are other Lancelot incaranations in that passage I didn't spot - such as Guilchmai, then Arthur Dayne won't be reborn   But hold on, these are 7 brothers, Beric Dondarrian had 7 lives, but he gave one to Cat.  Is that 7th ruby Elder Brother is waiting for Cat?  On a metaphysical level I mean?)

Anyway, no worries at all.  All is good!

I would love it if Arthur is alive, but that's actually exactly what made me think, "Hold your horses here, SSR, is there any other alternative info before you conclude Jon must have Dawn, and can it be solved another way." Which is why I used the "we". I shared all of your excitement, but was my own Devil's advocate and extended it to "us".

I would agree that Darkstar and Edric Dayne may be a red herring, but then we've been pouring over these books meticulously and over and over. While still officially unconfirmed, the fandom is so used by the idea of R+L=J that people start to consider it a red herring too, or think Jon's a red herring because the hidden prince is such a trope, etc. In reality, Darkstar and Edric Dayne are very small characters, and hardly featured. If let's say the series is completed in say 6-7 years (I so wish), and someone then starts to read them one after the other for the first time, then they'd probably be surprised if 2-3 books later suddenly a Darkstar or Edric Dayne appear with Dawn (as either Sword of the Evening or Morning), and then think "Oh, yeah, that's the boy Gendry was jealous of," or "Oh, yeah, that's the incredibly rude one who cut Myrcella's ear of." To us it seems obvious now, but it's not so obvious on a read from start to finish the first time, because they are featured in a seemingly completely unrelated arc (and you certainly don't read a book the first time thinking cuttig Myrcella's ear and slashing at her face is like cutting the moon... great find, LmL by the way). Then they are just snippets of info. In the end that's how George writes the books: he gives clues in an offhand manner, but distracts us from it by using an opposing POV, or a different setting, or unrelated event.

For example with Edric he's this very polite young boy who fears he'll get a crab apple thrown to his head by Arya, talks about Wylla and thinks she's Jon's mother, and Gendry acts jealous around him, and he hasn't killed anybody yet, completely surprised at the idea. So, for a first time reader who hasn't figured out that Jon is Lyanna's son, Edric's purpose seems to be getting Gendry jealous and give a snippet of info regarding Jon's mother - Wylla. In no way, is GRRM holding an arrow to Edric's head and telling the reader "This is the next Sword in the Morning!!!!!!" He does that with Stannis and possibly Dany imo, "This is Azor Ahai!!!!". But GRRM doesn't even say Edric's missing from the BwB later on. We've all figured that out from pouring over the books and noting that he's not described or mentioned from the vague snippet views we get of the BwB under LS (an epilogue and Brienne's last chapter, and both use vague clues to the identities of those who are still present). First time reader, reading all the books will most likely even still think Edric must still be with them, because it takes even thought and reflection and going back to Arya's time with them to figure out - oh, that must be Harwin, and that must be Tom, oh yeah and the one patch guy what's his name again Jack-be-Lucky; that's Lem, and oooooooooooooh "Cat!" And they've forgotten all about Edric, Greenbeard, heck even Anguy. You're almost led to assume that since Harwin, Tom, Lem, Thoros and Jack-be-Lucky are described that the rest of them is there too.

So, I disagree that GRRM has set him up as a red herring. In fact, he's done everything to distract the reader from such a conclusion, and made him seem like an unlikely candidate, and even create a faulty assumption that Edric is still with the BwB.

On even an adult wielding a greatsword. It's actually quite exaggerated. Greatswords were made and used for battle at the front lines. They're basically a lancelike sword, or at least serve a similar purpose. Of course they're heavier than shorter swords, but not so much. And Dawn is a magical sword apparently, suddenly making even a mediocre wielder having such an advantage that they become the best. Or at least that's what GRRM's comment about combat prowess comparisons and Dawn making all the difference imply to me.

On the number 9... interesting you mention that. In the Dionysus situation at the ToJ, George uses a metaphor imo to the Korybantes. These were armored men who did a ritual dance with shields, swords and in armor. There were 9 dancers. Now what do they have to do with Dionysus? Hera was after him to have him killed (for a second time actually). And the Korybantes protected Dionysus by performing their dance and thereby drown out his baby cries. Of course the KG and Ned's men did not dance for a ritual, but for an actual fight. They are 7 against 3, including Ned. But Ned is not a guard. There are 3 KG and 6 personal guards of Ned... adding up to 9. So, at the ToJ we have 9 guards, and thus the number 9 as well, though it's not explicitly stated... The seven against three is repeated twice.

                 

#424 Lady Barbrey

Posted 07 October 2015 - 05:18 AM

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

I would love it if Arthur is alive, but that's actually exactly what made me think, "Hold your horses here, SSR, is there any other alternative info before you conclude Jon must have Dawn, and can it be solved another way." Which is why I used the "we".

I would agree that Darkstar and Edric Dayne may be a red herring, but then we've been pouring over these books meticulously and over and over. While still officially unconfirmed, the fandom is so used by the idea of R+L=J that people start to consider it a red herring too, or think Jon's a red herring because the hidden prince is such a trope, etc. In reality, Darkstar and Edric Dayne are very small characters, and hardly featured. If let's say the series is completed in say 6-7 years (I so wish), and someone then starts to read them one after the other for the first time, then they'd probably be surprised if 2-3 books later suddenly a Darkstar or Edric Dayne appear with Dawn (as either Sword of the Evening or Morning), and then think "Oh, yeah, that's the boy Gendry was jealous of," or "Oh, yeah, that's the incredibly rude one who cut Myrcella's ear of." To us it seems obvious now, but it's not so obvious on a read from start to finish the first time, because they are featured in a seemingly completely unrelated arc (and you certainly don't read a book the first time thinking cuttig Myrcella's ear and slashing at her face is like cutting the moon... great find, LmL by the way). Then they are just snippets of info. In the end that's how George writes the books: he gives clues in an offhand manner, but distracts us from it by using an opposing POV, or a different setting, or unrelated event.

For example with Edric he's this very polite young boy who fears he'll get a crab apple thrown to his head by Arya, talks about Wylla and thinks she's Jon's mother, and Gendry acts jealous around him, and he hasn't killed anybody yet, completely surprised at the idea. So, for a first time reader who hasn't figured out that Jon is Lyanna's son, Edric's purpose seems to be getting Gendry jealous and give a snippet of info regarding Jon's mother - Wylla. In no way, is GRRM holding an arrow to Edric's head and telling the reader "This is the next Sword in the Morning!!!!!!" He does that with Stannis and possibly Dany imo, "This is Azor Ahai!!!!". But GRRM doesn't even say Edric's missing from the BwB later on. We've all figured that out from pouring over the books and noting that he's not described or mentioned from the vague snippet views we get of the BwB under LS (an epilogue and Brienne's last chapter, and both use vague clues to the identities of those who are still present). First time reader, reading all the books will most likely even still think Edric must still be with them, because it takes even thought and reflection and going back to Arya's time with them to figure out - oh, that must be Harwin, and that must be Tom, oh yeah and the one patch guy what's his name again Jack-be-Lucky; that's Lem, and oooooooooooooh "Cat!" And they've forgotten all about Edric, Greenbeard, heck even Anguy. You're almost led to assume that since Harwin, Tom, Lem, Thoros and Jack-be-Lucky are described that the rest of them is there too.

So, I disagree that GRRM has set him up as a red herring. In fact, he's done everything to distract the reader from such a conclusion, and made him seem like an unlikely candidate, and even create a faulty assumption that Edric is still with the BwB.

On even an adult wielding a greatsword. It's actually quite exaggerated. Greatswords were made and used for battle at the front lines. They're basically a lancelike sword, or at least serve a similar purpose. Of course they're heavier than shorter swords, but not so much. And Dawn is a magical sword apparently, suddenly making even a mediocre wielder having such an advantage that they become the best. Or at least that's what GRRM's comment about combat prowess comparisons and Dawn making all the difference imply to me.

The only thing I remember about greatswords is Ned said he used Ice ceremonially because it was too heavy in battle.  That's Valyrian steel, it's supposed to be lighter.  So that's where that came from.

I thought Edric was going to pull out Dawn the first time through.  He's a Dayne, the only one we'd seen, squire to a good guy.  So that was my expectation.  I can't speak for everyone else but I'm sure others thought he was bearing it or would soon.

I spotted Darkstar right away but that's because I've read the classics.  But I think people expect more from him because Doran said he's he's the most dangerous man in the kingdom.

I'm more interested in your underworld take - you know the Greek underworld, as we've seen.  What's your take on the Isles of the Blessed?

                 

#425 Lady Barbrey                                    

Posted 07 October 2015 - 05:48 AM

We're modifying at the same time and each responding to earlier drafts, sweetsunray.  I enlarged on my post about Beric, seven lives, Cat's life being the 7th red ruby.  That's what I'm wondering about because I think I've finally found an analogy for myself at least that makes sense of Beric.

 

#426 sweetsunray               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:00 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

The only thing I remember about greatswords is Ned said he used Ice ceremonially because it was too heavy in battle.  That's Valyrian steel, it's supposed to be lighter.  So that's where that came from.

I thought Edric was going to pull out Dawn the first time through.  He's a Dayne, the only one we'd seen, squire to a good guy.  So that was my expectation.  I can't speak for everyone else but I'm sure others thought he was bearing it or would soon.

I'm more interested in your underworld take - you know the Greek underworld, as we've seen.  What's your take on the Isles of the Blessed?

I for instance didn't think of him as a Sword of the Morning. Didn't think of Dawn or Sword of the Morning at all much. I almost had forgotten about that. It hardly registered to me it could be a magic sword. And I noticed on the boards that when his name comes up it's mostly in relation to - he sounds like a good guy for Arya.

Agreed that GRRM is using that to say that Ice is too heavy to be used for fighting, enve though it's VS. Just more distraction and misrepresentation to make people think, "Edric Dayne can never wield a greatsword like Dawn" in the coming years imo.

Isles of the Blessed/Fortunate Isle: actually they feature in Greek mythology as well. It's where the thrice-incarnated and exceptional pure went to somewhere in the Atlantic, or west of Lybia. They are equated with the Elysian Fields: an Otherworld (not an Underworld) of milk, honey, fruit and always summer... actually it sounds pretty much how Robert describes the South and Highgarden to Ned as they go down the steps to enter the crypts. And historically, the Romans had tales of either The Azores or Canary Islands. Lots of Europeans on pension live on those during the winter for the warm, good life.

George Monmouth seems to conflate this with Avalon, the island of the "apples": with Morgane and her sisters as guardians, and where Excalibur was forged, and only reachable by ship. Hmmm Edric Dayne and apples  It's not supposed to be a realm of the dead, but of everlasting good life; a type of heaven, but without having to die. King Arthur never died, but was healed from his wounds. That's the basic legend. It's an isle of always summer, fruit, wine, and originally West of Mauretania. To me it sounds like Monmouth plucked and borrowed it from the Greeks or perhaps Plutarch. It's only later (in the same century) it gets to be conflated with Glastonbury who claim Arthur is buried there. The Tor used be surrounded by water called the Summer sea, and the claim that the island used to be called the Island of the Apples. Historically there seems to be a lot of pseudoarcheology or pseudohistory regarding the location, in order to jump on the popularity of Arthur's legend.

Anyway, transfering that to the series. I agree that George uses several Otherwordly island locations. The Quiet Isle compares to Glastonbury, but Glastonbury is not Avalon. It's an abbey, a monastery,  a pseudo-Avalon, but not the mythical Avalon. Robert's life speech at the crypts imo point South, and Starfall itself seems likely, with all them sisters. It does suggest that Arthur may not have died at all, but that with Dawn, Ned returned Arthur to Starfall as well. I wouldn't rule that out. But if he's alive, I don't think he's at the Quiet Isle, and the speech of Elder Brother I regard more as a parallel, than actually an identification of Arhur.  

        

#427 DarkSister1001                      

Posted 07 October 2015 - 10:58 AM

Sly Wren, on 06 Oct 2015 - 9:23 PM, said:

1. The idea that a Dayne could have been the one to march North and seek the Children seems workable. Or have been sought out by the Children. Or have been further north originally--Dorne doesn't seem all that hospitable compared to the lushness of the Riverlands, say. We know the Last Hero was seeking help from the Children when his sword broke, seems like he didn't have the right sword yet. If the Daynes already had the sword--seems like they might have been part of those sought out vs. doing the seeking. Maybe.

2. House Stark--not sure if it was founded before or after the Long Night--sounds like there were Starks before the Pact. BUT they weren't Kings. If my (and others') idea re: the earning of kingship in the North (vs. conquering) is right--would make sense that House Stark earned the title Kings of Winter via the Long Night.

And I agree--the idea that Winterfell was the sight of the final battle is a good one. Would also fit with the watcher on the walls idea: if everyone watched where they were for a while. Then moved to/created the Wall. Maybe.

1. Swords? Hopefully DarkSister1001 will show up and give her input. She knows this much better than I do.

2. Yes--the swords lost in the Dance. Reminds me again of how much "fire" consumes itself. Even magical swords. And dragons. Yet another reason I worry about Dany's getting out of these books alive.

3. The Ironborn connection--we war playing with that a while back. But I'd plum forgotten about Longclaw's and the Mormonts' Ironborn connection. You're right--would make sense if Longclaw was possibly part of the forfeit from the wrestling match (am assuming that's where you are going). Especially since the Mormonts are not a wealthy house.

And, as LmL and Lady Barbrey and others have pointed out, the Ironborn's connections to the oily black stone, their "what is dead may never die," even their traditional way of choosing a ruler--by persuasion in the Kingsmoot. Not by conquering or by inheritance. They go back to the Long Night somehow. I'm still wobbling around figuring it out. But it's there.

Well, let's see: Valyrian steel swords, Long Night, Starks and Winterfell, Daynes and Hightowers, Ironborn and Longclaw--seems on topic to me. All good.

Thanks, sorry I got behind.  So much to digest in all the posts!   And I'm loving every word of it.  I like you people.    Some are all about that bass...I'm all about the VS. 

Longclaw is a fascinating sword.  I LOVE that Jorah had the sense and character to give it up.  How many people in these stories would willing give up a VS sword?!  And Maege having the same sense and courage to give it to her brother.  I think that's something too.  She has daughters that are warriors and Jeor has given up his claim to Bear Island so why not keep it herself or bestow it on a daughter?  Did she know that VS would be important to the watch?  Was she trying to cheer up her older brother?  Very interesting to ponder.  Love their house words too...Here we stand.  They're certainly important to the story.  I haven't met a Mormont yet that I don't like.  Especially Lyanna. 

It's grip was damaged in a fire and it's called a hand-and-a-half sword.  Sound familiar?  Bastard like Jon, burned grip and he has a burned hand, used to kill the Halfhand.  Lots of good tidbits like these.  I searched high and low and it is the only named Bastard Sword.  As to it's origins, I honestly don't know.  But I do like the idea that it came from the IB.

 

The Starks and Ironmen fought over Bear Island for years.  It was once ruled by House Woodfoot before the Ironmen wiped out that family line.  It's even suggested that the NK may have been a Woodfoot.  I like the story that the Starks retook Bear Island with a wrestling match.  If that match was indeed wrestled with words perhaps there was a truce or pact?  What did the IB get other than their lives?  Or was that all.  The Starks have been very good at strategically placing their allies in the North.  The Reeds to the South at the Neck, Mormonts on the Northwest coast, the Manderlys on the White Knife and to the Southeast.  And all those houses are not just allies, but staunch allies whose Heads owe either a family or personal debt to the Starks.  And they were always good to the Night's Watch north of them.  All except those damn Boltons.  Grrrr

Isn't it interesting that the Stark that liberated Bear Island from House Hoare was King THEON Stark?  Is House Hoare pronounced like whore?  lol

Ned calling Arthur the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms and Martin saying he could've been beaten except for Dawn tells us some things.  1)  Ned may have been talking about Arthur's skill.  But he could have also been referring to his character.  Sansa has images in her head of what a knight should be and that's probably exactly what Arthur was.  A true knight.  He would have to be better than a typical knight to be given Dawn and called the SotM. 

From The Hedge Knight:  a touch on the right shoulder with the blade. "In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave."  (Fight's even when outnumbered)
The sword moves from right shoulder to left. "In the name of the Father I charge you to be just."  (Perhaps turned his back on Aerys to stand for Rhaeger)
Right shoulder. "In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent."  (Jon)
The left. "In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women....  (Lyanna)

Whereas like Thoros tells Brienne "some knights are dark and full of terrors"

2)  Wielding Dawn (or VS) amplifies the wielders skills.  This brings to mind Brienne saying that Oathkeeper felt "alive" in her hands.  I think even Tarly says that it was Oathkeeper and not Brienne.  "The sword is quick"  Or something like that.  And that probably ties into the sword, blood and soul stuff we've been discussing. 

        

#428 Brianpowers               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 11:58 AM

[quote name="LmL" post="7393548" timestamp="1444210656"]Just wanted to say I predicted Darkstar stealing Dawn a looooong time ago without any of your fancy, knees-bent running around you silly Arthurian ka-niggots!! I wave my private parts at your --- oh sorry, something triggered a Monty Python tirade. Apologies, I have John Cleese Tourett's, it's a very rare and silly disease.

Hilarious, I hereby nominate LML for upper class twit of the year.

Warmest regards, William H. Knickers

        

#429 DarkSister1001

Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:31 PM

Going back to the Mormont/Ironmen relationship, I enjoy the budding relationship of Alysane and Asha.  It may only be mutual respect at this point.  Woman warriors in a world of men.  But I like it and if/when they become the heads of their houses it will go far to help them be at peace with each other.  Someone please queue the Judds, Love can Build a Bridge (of skulls!)

        

#430 Sly Wren                    

Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:39 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Thanks, sorry I got behind.  So much to digest in all the posts!   And I'm loving every word of it.  I like you people.    Some are all about that bass...I'm all about the VS. 

Longclaw is a fascinating sword.  I LOVE that Jorah had the sense and character to give it up.  How many people in these stories would willing give up a VS sword?!  And Maege having the same sense and courage to give it to her brother.  I think that's something too.  She has daughters that are warriors and Jeor has given up his claim to Bear Island so why not keep it herself or bestow it on a daughter?  Did she know that VS would be important to the watch?  Was she trying to cheer up her older brother?  Very interesting to ponder.  Love their house words too...Here we stand.  They're certainly important to the story.  I haven't met a Mormont yet that I don't like.  Especially Lyanna. 

It's grip was damaged in a fire and it's called a hand-and-a-half sword.  Sound familiar?  Bastard like Jon, burned grip and he has a burned hand, used to kill the Halfhand.  Lots of good tidbits like these.  I searched high and low and it is the only named Bastard Sword.  As to it's origins, I honestly don't know.  But I do like the idea that it came from the IB.

Agree with all of the above--and want to know more about the Mormonts, too. But the bolded: Blackfyre is listed as a hand-and-a-half sword. Just so you know.

Still, bastard swords are rare. Like Jon's status. And still works with the symbolism of his wanting the "true great sword" (interesting phrasing), Ice.

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

The Starks and Ironmen fought over Bear Island for years.  It was once ruled by House Woodfoot before the Ironmen wiped out that family line.  It's even suggested that the NK may have been a Woodfoot.  I like the story that the Starks retook Bear Island with a wrestling match.  If that match was indeed wrestled with words perhaps there was a truce or pact?  What did the IB get other than their lives?  Or was that all.  The Starks have been very good at strategically placing their allies in the North.  The Reeds to the South at the Neck, Mormonts on the Northwest coast, the Manderlys on the White Knife and to the Southeast.  And all those houses are not just allies, but staunch allies whose Heads owe either a family or personal debt to the Starks.  And they were always good to the Night's Watch north of them.  All except those damn Boltons.  Grrrr

Isn't it interesting that the Stark that liberated Bear Island from House Hoare was King THEON Stark?  Is House Hoare pronounced like whore?  lol

I've always thought that's how you pronounce "Hoare." Like "hoarfrost." The synonym is most unfortunate, however.

The wrestling match story--good questions. I've wondered about that as well. Sounds like the Ironborn and the North have always been overly entangled.

And you're right re: Stark allies--the Stark history in the World Book is spotty. But they do seem to have put people in their debt. And respected those roles. Even the Liddle Bran runs into--respect for the Starks and their order. Am thinking we're seeing a similar process of earned respect and potential for strategic allies with Jon. Now, if he could just avoid being attacked by his own men. . . 

And I am out of time. Curses. Will get back to this soon.

431-440

#431 sweetsunray             

Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:44 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Going back to the Mormont/Ironmen relationship, I enjoy the budding relationship of Alysane and Asha.  It may only be mutual respect at this point.  Woman warriors in a world of men.  But I like it and if/when they become the heads of their houses it will go far to help them be at peace with each other.  Someone please queue the Judds, Love can Build a Bridge (of skulls!)

Well, I think Alysane is kindof a hostage to Stannis.She's just free to walk around and unfettered by a cage like Asha. She's not an official captive, but I think she is with Stannis to ensure her men do what they agreed on doing for Stannis. It's curious that Alysane joins Stannis with men of her own to retake Deepwood Motte, but after Deepwood Motte she seems to be alone. We know that Asha had 4 IB ships. Some were burned, others not. People from Bear Island know how to work a boat, and after Deepwood Motte is taken, anyone can use those leftover IB boats at the Western coast of the North without impunity. I doubt those men that are conscpicuously unmentioned just went back to Bear Island.

[spoiler}And if Stannis prepares to fight, and has the Bear Islanders fight for him, then why send Alysane to the Wall with Massey so very conveniently before any Bolton followers arrive.[/spoiler}

So, she's a bit of a volunteering hostage imo, and that's why she bonds with Asha. But I think Stannis here has a trick up his sleeve.

        

#432 Crazy Cat Lady in Training               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:53 PM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Agree with all of the above--and want to know more about the Mormonts, too. But the bolded: Blackfyre is listed as a hand-and-a-half sword. Just so you know.

Still, bastard swords are rare. Like Jon's status. And still works with the symbolism of his wanting the "true great sword" (interesting phrasing), Ice.

I've always thought that's how you pronounce "Hoare." Like "hoarfrost." The synonym is most unfortunate, however.

The wrestling match story--good questions. I've wondered about that as well. Sounds like the Ironborn and the North have always been overly entangled.

And you're right re: Stark allies--the Stark history in the World Book is spotty. But they do seem to have put people in their debt. And respected those roles. Even the Liddle Bran runs into--respect for the Starks and their order. Am thinking we're seeing a similar process of earned respect and potential for strategic allies with Jon. Now, if he could just avoid being attacked by his own men. . . 

Even the wildlings respect the Starks. One of Mance's spearwives gets angry at Theon for saying "Winter is Coming" and says: "You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard's words! Not you!"

Jon was a tad too progressive for the NW's liking. Their hatred of the wildlings went deeper than their common sense. You'd think some of them would have understood where Jon was coming from and why it was so important that they let the wildlings through and at least try to rescue those at Hardhome.

The Wall has already fallen and they don't even know it. Jon has his men, and they're wildlings. He's the de facto King Beyond the Wall now.

        

#433 sweetsunray

Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:04 PM

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Even the wildlings respect the Starks. One of Mance's spearwives gets angry at Theon for saying "Winter is Coming" and says: "You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard's words! Not you!"

Jon was a tad too progressive for the NW's liking. Their hatred of the wildlings went deeper than their common sense. You'd think some of them would have understood where Jon was coming from and why it was so important that they let the wildlings through and at least try to rescue those at Hardhome.

The Wall has already fallen and they don't even know it. Jon has his men, and they're wildlings. He's the de facto King Beyond the Wall now.

That speawife talks kindof curiously for a wildling. She's likely related to people of the North, who were abducted, or she was abducted. She's very likely an Umber.

        

#434 Crazy Cat Lady in Training               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:37 PM

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

That speawife talks kindof curiously for a wildling. She's likely related to people of the North, who were abducted, or she was abducted. She's very likely an Umber.

As to that, Mance talks kind of curiously for a wildling. His obsession with Bael the Bard and Winterfell makes me think he may just have some Stark blood.

        

#435 sweetsunray               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:45 PM

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

As to that, Mance talks kind of curiously for a wildling. His obsession with Bael the Bard and Winterfell makes me think he may just have some Stark blood.

Well, at least we know he was raised and for many years remained at the Wall. So, that stands out less to me. Mance was still one of the NW-men when Robb and Jon were about 5 years old, and had piled snow on top of the gate for a prank. That's not long before Jeor becomes LC. Mance and Benjen though never met, as they served different castles.

 

#436 DarkSister1001                      

Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:46 PM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Agree with all of the above--and want to know more about the Mormonts, too. But the bolded: Blackfyre is listed as a hand-and-a-half sword. Just so you know.

Still, bastard swords are rare. Like Jon's status. And still works with the symbolism of his wanting the "true great sword" (interesting phrasing), Ice.

I've always thought that's how you pronounce "Hoare." Like "hoarfrost." The synonym is most unfortunate, however.

The wrestling match story--good questions. I've wondered about that as well. Sounds like the Ironborn and the North have always been overly entangled.

And you're right re: Stark allies--the Stark history in the World Book is spotty. But they do seem to have put people in their debt. And respected those roles. Even the Liddle Bran runs into--respect for the Starks and their order. Am thinking we're seeing a similar process of earned respect and potential for strategic allies with Jon. Now, if he could just avoid being attacked by his now men. . . 

And I am out of time. Curses. Will get back to this soon.

Aside from the Boltons, who are power-hungry and envious, at best (evil vampires at worst) and the Karstarks who were ignorant fools, the North love their Starks.  The line about dying for The Neds little girl always makes me tear up.  And Manderly's granddaughter's protestation of the Frey "alliance" gives me chills.  Not a lot of Great Houses have vassals that love them like that.  Most are ruled more out of fear and necessity.  And I think that speaks to the character of the Starks.  Shit Lyanna willing to don armor to help Howland or to find someone else to suit up to help him says a great deal about the people of WF.

ETA:  I forgot about Blackfyre.  Good call!

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Well, I think Alysane is kindof a hostage to Stannis.She's just free to walk around and unfettered by a cage like Asha. She's not an official captive, but I think she is with Stannis to ensure her men do what they agreed on doing for Stannis. It's curious that Alysane joins Stannis with men of her own to retake Deepwood Motte, but after Deepwood Motte she seems to be alone. We know that Asha had 4 IB ships. Some were burned, others not. People from Bear Island know how to work a boat, and after Deepwood Motte is taken, anyone can use those leftover IB boats at the Western coast of the North without impunity. I doubt those men that are conscpicuously unmentioned just went back to Bear Island.

So, she's a bit of a volunteering hostage imo, and that's why she bonds with Asha. But I think Stannis here has a trick up his sleeve.

 I agree.  Free rage captives, um, I mean, honored guests.  Hot damn I forgot about those fellas!  Do you have a link or something I could read?  I'd love to know the theories. 

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Even the wildlings respect the Starks. One of Mance's spearwives gets angry at Theon for saying "Winter is Coming" and says: "You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard's words! Not you!"

Jon was a tad too progressive for the NW's liking. Their hatred of the wildlings went deeper than their common sense. You'd think some of them would have understood where Jon was coming from and why it was so important that they let the wildlings through and at least try to rescue those at Hardhome.

The Wall has already fallen and they don't even know it. Jon has his men, and they're wildlings. He's the de facto King Beyond the Wall now.

 I agree about Jon being King.  They follow the strong.  And the way the treated him when crossing the Wall were mostly with signs of respect.  Re:  Wildlings, see below. 

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

That speawife talks kindof curiously for a wildling. She's likely related to people of the North, who were abducted, or she was abducted. She's very likely an Umber.

 Yes!  Most of the Wildlings seem to mock the "kneelers" but Rowan's (I think that was her) fierce outburst regarding Stark words sound like they're coming from a Northern, and not a wildling.  And she's seen talking to an Umber later.  Maybe telling them she's ok.  Could all be part of the GNC. 

        

#437 Crazy Cat Lady in Training               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:57 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

Aside from the Boltons, who are power-hungry and envious, at best (evil vampires at worst) and the Karstarks who were ignorant fools, the North love their Starks.  The line about dying for The Neds little girl always makes me tear up.  And Manderly's granddaughter's protestation of the Frey "alliance" gives me chills.  Not a lot of Great Houses have vassals that love them like that.  Most are ruled more out of fear and necessity.  And I think that speaks to the character of the Starks.  Shit Lyanna willing to don armor to help Howland or to find someone else to suit up to help him says a great deal about the people of WF.

ETA:  I forgot about Blackfyre.  Good call!

 I agree.  Free rage captives, um, I mean, honored guests.  Hot damn I forgot about those fellas!  Do you have a link or something I could read?  I'd love to know the theories. 

 I agree about Jon being King.  They follow the strong.  And the way the treated him when crossing the Wall were mostly with signs of respect.  Re:  Wildlings, see below. 

 Yes!  Most of the Wildlings seem to mock the "kneelers" but Rowan's (I think that was her) fierce outburst regarding Stark words sound like they're coming from a Northern, and not a wildling.  And she's seen talking to an Umber later.  Maybe telling them she's ok.  Could all be part of the GNC. 

What got me the first time I read that was that she actually called him "Lord Eddard". Not "the Stark" or "the Ned". Lord Eddard. 

She does sound like a kneeler. 

ETA: About the GNC...maybe that's why Maege is hanging out in Stannis' camp. She can make a lot of contacts that way. Just a thought. 

                 

#438 DarkSister1001                      

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:00 PM

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

As to that, Mance talks kind of curiously for a wildling. His obsession with Bael the Bard and Winterfell makes me think he may just have some Stark blood.

He does.  But I don't think he's a Stark.  His trips to WF and being raised by the NW would give him those ideas.  He and Jon are very similar to each other and very different from the rest of the world.  Their unique experiences have given them the advantages of knowing and respecting their people and the enemies (Free Folk vs Kneelers) making them strong leaders. 

        

#439 DarkSister1001

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:05 PM

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

What got me the first time I read that was that she actually called him "Lord Eddard". Not "the Stark" or "the Ned". Lord Eddard. 

She does sound like a kneeler. 

Yup.  And why would a Wildling defend the Starks?  The Starks have been battling them for years.  Unless she grew up as a Northerner. 

Quote ETA: About the GNC...maybe that's why Maege is hanging out in Stannis' camp. She can make a lot of contacts that way. Just a thought. 

Maege or Alysane? 

        

#440 Crazy Cat Lady in Training               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:06 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:00 PM, said:

He does.  But I don't think he's a Stark.  His trips to WF and being raised by the NW would give him those ideas.  He and Jon are very similar to each other and very different from the rest of the world.  Their unique experiences have given them the advantages of knowing and respecting their people and the enemies (Free Folk vs Kneelers) making them strong leaders. 

Oh, I agree with that, definitely.: ) He is doing the very best he can to protect his people as a king should.

 

441-450

#441 Crazy Cat Lady in Training             

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:07 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:00 PM, said:

He does.  But I don't think he's a Stark.  His trips to WF and being raised by the NW would give him those ideas.  He and Jon are very similar to each other and very different from the rest of the world.  Their unique experiences have given them the advantages of knowing and respecting their people and the enemies (Free Folk vs Kneelers) making them strong leaders. 

Oh, I agree with that, definitely.: ) He is doing the very best he can to protect his people as a king should. 

        

#442 Crazy Cat Lady in Training               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:08 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:05 PM, said:

Yup.  And why would a Wildling defend the Starks?  The Starks have been battling them for years.  Unless she grew up as a Northerner. 

Maege or Alysane? 

Alysane, my bad.

I'm not disagreeing that Rowan isn't a Northerner at all. She probably is, or was. 

        

#443 DarkSister1001                      

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:10 PM

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:06 PM, said:

Oh, I agree with that, definitely.: ) He is doing the very best he can to protect his people as a king should. 

Absolutely.  He's not narrow minded and letting his emotions and get the best of him and stick with the status quo.  He thinks of them as part of the realms of men and looking at the bigger picture.  And even if their enemies he knows that the would be turned and he'd have to fight an even larger army of wights. 

ETA: Alysane

Oh, phew, thought there was a theory I had missed out on. Lol

                 

#444 Crazy Cat Lady in Training               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:12 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:10 PM, said:

Absolutely.  He's not narrow minded and letting his emotions and get the best of him and stick with the status quo.  He thinks of them as part of the realms of men and looking at the bigger picture.  And even if their enemies he knows that the would be turned and he'd have to fight an even larger army of wights. 

The ARE part of the realm of men. The only thing that sets them apart from it is the Wall. 

 

#445 DarkSister1001                      

Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:13 PM

Crazy Cat Lady in Training, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:12 PM, said:

The ARE part of the realm of men. The only thing that sets them apart from it is the Wall. 

I agree.

 

#446 sweetsunray               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:54 PM

DarkSister1001, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

 I agree.  Free rage captives, um, I mean, honored guests.  Hot damn I forgot about those fellas!  Do you have a link or something I could read?  I'd love to know the theories. 

 I agree about Jon being King.  They follow the strong.  And the way the treated him when crossing the Wall were mostly with signs of respect.  Re:  Wildlings, see below. 

 Yes!  Most of the Wildlings seem to mock the "kneelers" but Rowan's (I think that was her) fierce outburst regarding Stark words sound like they're coming from a Northern, and not a wildling.  And she's seen talking to an Umber later.  Maybe telling them she's ok.  Could all be part of the GNC. 

Not saying that every prediction of Cantuse will be correct, or that I agree with his entire scenario or all his premisses and assumptions, but in a nutshell the theory is as follows:

Stannis will win the battle of ice by using the blizzard to his own advantage. Freys might have a crude map, but that can be used to misdirect the Freys. Village where Stannis has been staying is in between 2 ice lakes, one with a giant weirwood in the middle of the lake. Freys know where the village is supposed to be situated, and they'd know the village has a tower with a beacon. In a blizzard they'd go for the beacon. But if Stannis arranges for a "false" beacon from the island in the middle of the big ice lake, and place his men and the Northerners so that it appears the village is actually where the ice lake is, Stannis can lure the Freys onto the lake. Meanwhile he can have catapults on the actual land bridge, that could smash the ice lake at the appropriate signal (a lake that already has plenty of fishing holes around the island). Result: van and main of the eager Freys led by Ser Stupid (who's angry on top of it) will drown in the ice lake. It would be easy for Stannis and the Northerners with him to take the rear with the baggage train. He doesn't even need the Manderlys to attack the Freys. Would help though for the added confusion. You can disagree on the details of Cantuse's night lamp theory - who will be sacrificed, whether he will light up lightbringer as the signal and blind the Freys (that's details...fun, well thought out, but detail)

The biggest discussion is what will follow after that. There are people who assume that just having thousand men dress up as Freys (amount that didn't drown in the lake, thus the rear numbers) and Karstarks (450) and return with Manderly (300) to WF to slaughter the Boltons from the inside will go a-ok. But it would require Dustin, Ryswells and others to turn against the Boltons and join in the massacre, and have enough numbers. But if the forces are too evenly divided, then you've got a problem. Even if you let a whole army into WF by nightfall, someone's bound to notice and raise the alarm. Even if Stannis and Northerners joining him have higher numbers than Boltons, you'd need very drunk Boltons and a ratio of over 2:1 men in order not to lose too many of your own.

I'm one of the sceptics that everyone inside WF will turn on the Boltons, and that you can lure in an army inside undetected when there's a force of 3500-4100 loyal Boltons inside. And I remain sceptical of using the crypts as a way to get men in, since you can only do those stairs one-by-one. You might get to lure 20 good men inside that way, but what's 20 men against 3500-4100? Stannis would have anticipated that, and he cannot be certain that Ryswells and Dustins are not loyal to Roose. So, he'd have to set up some plan to lure those forces away. How are you gonna do that? By making them believe there's no threat to WF anymore, and having them receive ravens that their home is under attack or burned. This is called a false flag attack. Ironborn ships manned by Mormonts pretending to be IB could sail from Deepwood Motte to the Rills or Barrowton (IB ships can go upriver). They wouldn't even need to kill anyone, just burn the place down (Lady Dustin's keep is made of wood). If they believe Stannis was defeated and dead, and get news the IB are raiding their home, it would be difficult for Bolton to require them to stay, while Dustins and Ryswells clamor to defend their home. (anyway that's what Cantuse projects will happen: link)

Or it could be that they're sailing upriver to retake Torrhen Square from the remaining IB, so that Stannis troops that are not dressed up as Freys and Karstarks, can quarter there and gain food, isntead of the crofter's village (but it would take a lot of going to and fro for Stannis).

A similar tactic can be used to lure the Boltons away from WF - a false flag attack on the Dreadfort. Either wildlings take it (grapnel and hook), or Asha's IB do it, with Theon who knows secret ways in and out of the Dreadfort (remember Kyra) together with Umber's green men,while Stannis keeps Asha as his "honored guest". Some of those IB are in love with her and would do anything for her. The Dreadfort is where the food really is. WF only has for food what Dustin, Freys, Ryswells and Manderly brought. There was nothing in stock when Roose and Ramsay arrived at the ruins of WF. But the Dreadfort has food for years. So, once Roose learns some group of wildlings (whether really IB or in fact wildlings) have taken his keep, he'll rush for home, and leave Ramsay with a light garrison. Now such a WF will be very easy to overtake. Of course a small group might overtake the Dreadfort from a few men left there, like Theon took WF once in aCoK (and Stannis would know that Theon accomplished this), but they wouldn't last long against a Bolton siege. But jsut long enough if Stannis (believed to be dead by them) for once applies his brother's famous war tactic - forced marches. Roose would then be taken from the rear by Stannis, while still outside the walls of the Dreadfort. Roose would get smashed against his own walls, like Jon warned Stannis what would happen to his own army if he dared to march on the Dreadfort by the Karstark invitation (Stannis' original plan), and what happened to Cassel in front of the WF walls when Ramsay attacked him from the rear.

So, then Stannis would have both WF as well as Dreadfort. Very conveniently old Arnolf Karstark walking with a cane looks kindof like Theon does... With a cape and in a blizzard, Stannis can make it look as if he's sending poor old sick Arnolf back to Karhold, while Karstark men-at-arms look on. While Arnolf betrayed Stannis for Roose, the men-at-arms won't know this, and will just think "What a good man, ensuring Arnolf's safety". Meanwhile he can sacrifice Arnolf making people believe it's Theon, before the battle at the ice lakes. He believed he had several hundred of Thenns who kneeled for him and he might have set up some Dreadfort false-flag attack plan with. Or even Val, who says to Jon that she'll by back with the next moon, regardless whether she was successful in making Tormund cross the Wall and surrender. Tormund's said to come with 80 wildlings to CB (according to his son who arrived several hours ahead of Tormund), but a significant smaller number arrives. Where's the rest then? There's numerous ways this could work. 

        

#447 DarkSister1001                      

Posted 07 October 2015 - 04:58 PM

Sweetsunray - Thanks!  I remember reading it a while back but I completely forgot about the IB ships part.  I'm with you.  I don't 100% believe all of it but there's some that I think will play out.  The swiss cheese lake being numero uno. 

 

#448 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:15 PM

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

 
I for instance didn't think of him as a Sword of the Morning. Didn't think of Dawn or Sword of the Morning at all much. I almost had forgotten about that. It hardly registered to me it could be a magic sword. And I noticed on the boards that when his name comes up it's mostly in relation to - he sounds like a good guy for Arya.
 
Agreed that GRRM is using that to say that Ice is too heavy to be used for fighting, enve though it's VS. Just more distraction and misrepresentation to make people think, "Edric Dayne can never wield a greatsword like Dawn" in the coming years imo.
 
Isles of the Blessed/Fortunate Isle: actually they feature in Greek mythology as well. It's where the thrice-incarnated and exceptional pure went to somewhere in the Atlantic, or west of Lybia. They are equated with the Elysian Fields: an Otherworld (not an Underworld) of milk, honey, fruit and always summer... actually it sounds pretty much how Robert describes the South and Highgarden to Ned as they go down the steps to enter the crypts. And historically, the Romans had tales of either The Azores or Canary Islands. Lots of Europeans on pension live on those during the winter for the warm, good life.
 
George Monmouth seems to conflate this with Avalon, the island of the "apples": with Morgane and her sisters as guardians, and where Excalibur was forged, and only reachable by ship. Hmmm Edric Dayne and apples  It's not supposed to be a realm of the dead, but of everlasting good life; a type of heaven, but without having to die. King Arthur never died, but was healed from his wounds. That's the basic legend. It's an isle of always summer, fruit, wine, and originally West of Mauretania. To me it sounds like Monmouth plucked and borrowed it from the Greeks or perhaps Plutarch. It's only later (in the same century) it gets to be conflated with Glastonbury who claim Arthur is buried there. The Tor used be surrounded by water called the Summer sea, and the claim that the island used to be called the Island of the Apples. Historically there seems to be a lot of pseudoarcheology or pseudohistory regarding the location, in order to jump on the popularity of Arthur's legend.
 
Anyway, transfering that to the series. I agree that George uses several Otherwordly island locations. The Quiet Isle compares to Glastonbury, but Glastonbury is not Avalon. It's an abbey, a monastery,  a pseudo-Avalon, but not the mythical Avalon. Robert's life speech at the crypts imo point South, and Starfall itself seems likely, with all them sisters. It does suggest that Arthur may not have died at all, but that with Dawn, Ned returned Arthur to Starfall as well. I wouldn't rule that out. But if he's alive, I don't think he's at the Quiet Isle, and the speech of Elder Brother I regard more as a parallel, than actually an identification of Arhur.  

I actually have Winterfell with Glastonbury - isle of glass (gardens) and crypts, where King Arthur's grave is supposed to be (but in this case would be the Last Hero's grave). We even have good queen alysanne and jahaerys (substantially modeled on Edward I and good queen Eleanor) visiting Winterfell and the Wall. Edward I and Eleanor visited Glastonbury in the 12th century and had King Arthur's bones re-entombed and reburied under an alter. Suggests to me that J and A might have done something similar.

In my post I had said that Avalon and the Isles of the Blessed shared similar attributes. I won't go back to my initial post where I show the Quiet Isles' parallels to Avalon, but they are pretty consistent. The Isles of the Blessed in Hades are described in the same terms in some cases, so therr seems to be a conflation. While the Isles of the Blessed are supposed to be for pure souls, they are more associated with heroes (some of whom had less than pure lives), who are reborn three times before moving on to the Elysian Fields. Avalon too has this rebirth attached to it - a place from which a hero (like King Arthur) can return.

We have the Hound being 'reborn' on the Quiet Isle, which is now a place for the Seven.

We have the Elder Brother too.

They are waiting for a 7th ruby, which makes no sense as Rhaegar's rubies as many of them were grabbed in battle so how would Elder Brother know there even was a 7th.

Brienne's journey through the Riverlands is a journey through Hades, at its end the Queen of Hel, Stoneheart. It's a physical journey but a metaphysical one as well, operating in the real and the mythical. The Isles of the Blessed were the place in Hades where heroes went to be reborn in the underworld- three times.

I'm suggesting that Martin is using the Quiet Isle (Avalon/Blessed Isle) to represent that part of Hades.

Further, Beric Dondarrion's resurrections might be explained by Martin's version of Hades. When I think of heroes in the books, the one that stands out for me isn't a hero of the past, but Beric Dondarrion. Thoros was surprised at his resurrections; it had never happened before. I wondered at that point if Martin was telling us that this man's soul was so great it could somehow rebirth him 7 times. But that didn't make sense in terms of what we had seen so far.

But this vision of Hades with the Isles of the Blessed does. Metaphysically, if this is where heroes go to be reborn, Martin might have changed that to seven rebirths instead of the traditional three to correspond with the Seven.

And that's why the 7th ruby. It's Beric's 7th life they are waiting for, ruby red because he was resurrected with fire. That 7th life is in Cat - the Mother. Until she dies, Beric's soul cannot move on to the Elysian Fields. We also get a glimpse of what fire resurrections do, they burn up the life force, memory, soul and vitality bit by bit, whereas a natural death, or resurrection by some other elemental magic might have a different outcome.

I will know more once I've re-examined Brienne's journey. It would not surprise me if each of the stops along that journey correspond to various areas in Hades.

Hypothetical right now, but likely deserves a full essay I don't feel like writing! As you continue with your Persephone examination though, keep a lookout.

 

#449 sweetsunray               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:44 PM

I will go through your Isle posts again... but I think I figured out the meaning of your red horse. Posted it in the Persephone thread.

        

#450 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:57 PM

LmL, on 07 Oct 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

Quote

Just wanted to say I predicted Darkstar stealing Dawn a looooong time ago without any of your fancy, knees-bent running around you silly Arthurian ka-niggots!! I wave my private parts at your --- oh sorry, something triggered a Monty Python tirade. Apologies, I have John Cleese Tourett's, it's a very rare and silly disease.

Yes you did predict it!  I remember that.  I think whenever a Dayne is mentioned our thoughts automatically go to Dawn and how that Dayne is related to the sword.
 

Quote

Kidding aside, I just realized something about the silver glacier Darkstar hairdo thing. There are some similarities in the descriptions of the Wall and the Giant's Lance / Alyssa's tears. The entire Eryrie chain of castles is symbolizing something, I feel certain, and much of it is very icy. Now, whatever you think about Dawn being original Ice, we should all agree that the Wall is used as a symbol of Dawn, Lightbringer, or both. So listen to these quotes, and think of Dawn as a white sword in the darkness, think about the silver glacier surrounded by black hair:

They seem to be telling us something but I have no idea what!  I sometimes think we've been led on a garden path - I have anyway - with the symbolism of hot red+cold blue=purple.  Maybe we also should be looking for black and white symbolism.  The Faceless Men's door is black and white but integrated into each other on the door - balanced.  Day and Night.  Jon and Arya's eyes are grey - black and white.  Night and Day.  Dayne's hair is black and white, but the white is just a streak.  Allysa's tears are icy too, but surrounded by black.  Anyway, I don't know.  But if the balance needs to Night and Day, rather than Ice and Fire (or both), then it seems to me grey as a balance, or black and white (integrated and balanced like on the door) might be signs of that real fight that needs to be fought.

[Sly Wren]

Okay--last archived bit.

451-460

#451 LmL               

Posted 07 October 2015 - 07:55 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 5:57 PM, said:

LmL, on 07 Oct 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

Quote

Just wanted to say I predicted Darkstar stealing Dawn a looooong time ago without any of your fancy, knees-bent running around you silly Arthurian ka-niggots!! I wave my private parts at your --- oh sorry, something triggered a Monty Python tirade. Apologies, I have John Cleese Tourett's, it's a very rare and silly disease.

Yes you did predict it!  I remember that.  I think whenever a Dayne is mentioned our thoughts automatically go to Dawn and how that Dayne is related to the sword.
 

Quote

Kidding aside, I just realized something about the silver glacier Darkstar hairdo thing. There are some similarities in the descriptions of the Wall and the Giant's Lance / Alyssa's tears. The entire Eryrie chain of castles is symbolizing something, I feel certain, and much of it is very icy. Now, whatever you think about Dawn being original Ice, we should all agree that the Wall is used as a symbol of Dawn, Lightbringer, or both. So listen to these quotes, and think of Dawn as a white sword in the darkness, think about the silver glacier surrounded by black hair:

They seem to be telling us something but I have no idea what!  I sometimes think we've been led on a garden path - I have anyway - with the symbolism of hot red+cold blue=purple.  Maybe we also should be looking for black and white symbolism.  The Faceless Men's door is black and white but integrated into each other on the door - balanced.  Day and Night.  Jon and Arya's eyes are grey - black and white.  Night and Day.  Dayne's hair is black and white, but the white is just a streak.  Allysa's tears are icy too, but surrounded by black.  Anyway, I don't know.  But if the balance needs to Night and Day, rather than Ice and Fire (or both), then it seems to me grey as a balance, or black and white (integrated and balanced like on the door) might be signs of that real fight that needs to be fought.

I was comparing them all mentally to the crystal sword on black, the sigil of the warrior's sons. If Dawn shines or takes fire, i really favor white or blue or just "pale flame," white hot, like staring at the sun, or perhaps like the sun's reflection off of snow which causes snow blindness. So when I see all these symbols, it makes me think of a white sword on black. The fact that Darkstarr has this symbol (potentially) in his hair may indicate he will steal it, possess it, etc. or it could just be a clue about the Dayen's. The glacier wording fits, because in one scene the white ribbon or streak is the Wall, which is Ice and known to weep tears, and Alyssa's tears, the ghost torrent, which comes from melting glacier ice and snow. Same idea. And there is Darkstar, with a silver glacier streak on black. I think it points at Dawn = original Ice, myself. 

           

#452 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 07 October 2015 - 08:06 PM

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

snip.

Quote

On the number 9... interesting you mention that. In the Dionysus situation at the ToJ, George uses a metaphor imo to the Korybantes. These were armored men who did a ritual dance with shields, swords and in armor. There were 9 dancers. Now what do they have to do with Dionysus? Hera was after him to have him killed (for a second time actually). And the Korybantes protected Dionysus by performing their dance and thereby drown out his baby cries. Of course the KG and Ned's men did not dance for a ritual, but for an actual fight. They are 7 against 3, including Ned. But Ned is not a guard. There are 3 KG and 6 personal guards of Ned... adding up to 9. So, at the ToJ we have 9 guards, and thus the number 9 as well, though it's not explicitly stated... The seven against three is repeated twice.

Yes, I had read that on your thread about the Korybantes and liked it.  (I do read your excellent thread but don't respond much because I have little to add usually).  

I have a vague feeling that the numbers have religious and celestial significance.  Norse myth with their nine worlds, Celtic with their nine sisters.  This is one thing (among others) that makes me believe in LmLs theories.  The old gods would have included Earth (Planetos) in their numbering of the seven wanderers, which for the seven seem to be Sun, Moon, and five planets.  However, that leaves out the Earth, the 8th, as an eighth celestial wanderer (who in another post I identified with Hodor).  But there should be nine, the ninth world of the Norse, and that ninth might well be the moon that disappeared, its only remnant the comet that reappears occasionally and some meteorite found in the world.  Now Mel is very consistently portrayed as a Morgan LeFay type, and Morgan LeFay was one of the nine sisters of Celtic myth, and originally nine was the number of Fates (Fates? can't remember - another set of nine sisters though) in Norse myth.  

Melisandre is also identified with that fiery comet - she is said to be a bleeding star.   It therefore could be that the number nine is symbolic of the old religion, which included Earth and the second moon (now a comet) in their number before the second moon exploded.  And the destruction of the second moon (the 9th wanderer) is reflected in Melisandre, the ninth sister.  It is very possible, if this is true, that Melisandre could channel ice magic as well as fire.  But she was sold and indoctrinated into a fire worshipping religion so doesn't even know it.  

The Andals came and they too worship celestial wanderers, or rather their reflections in their seven-faced god, but it is essentially a sky god religion (Earth is not counted) and because it is newer they also don't count the ninth, which is the moon that was destroyed, because they don't remember it ever existing. 

So it might seem odd that Ned and his first men cohorts ride as 7 on the Tower of Joy, but I think what's forgotten is that there are two more in the Tower of Joy.  Lyanna and Jon.  For the holy number of 9 of the old gods.  We get a hint of that with the constellation King's Crown of the Andals that the Wildlings (likely with the purest of First Men traditions) call the Cradle.  (This is the constellation that I actually think has nine stars in it, the biggest in the centre, because it goes back to a 9 diamond crown two brothers killed themselves over, King Arthur found it, and it became the catalyst for the birth of Galahad).   And this might be why Melisandre and Jon seem to have a bond through Ghost.  She is the destroyed moon, he is the new one rising?  Don't know on that last part, but think of Ghost with his white moon body and red eyes.  Bloodraven white and red.  Melisandre white and red.  A white moon with a a fiery core a remnant of it in the form of a comet swinging by on occasion to herald magic rising in the world.

That's what I get from nine.

Seven is the number of the the Seven, but these are also gods of the old gods, so they are not inimical except that they are missing two.  This is the sky god tradition.  No earth.  No ninth wanderer.   And it's the lack of Earth in their number that opposes them to the old gods.

This all makes sense to me (and mirrors mythical traditions in our own world).

Three I am not sure about either, but it seems more a number of an even newer religion - Christianity - that has not yet risen.  A mother and her baby, attended by Three Kings (guard).  

What I like about this is it's a bit of a summary of how religion worked in Britain, though lots more happened there.  The Druidical and ancient Norse traditions (9) gave way to the sky-gods of Indo-European myth - though can't number them - and were conceived of as a family (7) that gave way to Christianity (3). Something like that anyway

It also gets back to swords in a very tangential way - the same moon produced the white meteorite from which Dawn is made and the black-cooled fire- that's caused problems.  White diamond/black diamond!  Diamond is made from extreme heat.  Pure white diamonds have their own luminescence that sometimes looks blue.  Black diamond has inclusions but is also made from extreme heat.  I'm not saying the moon was made of diamond but certainly something like it.  So if we truly wanted a sword that was both, you'd want a sword made from both the light and the dark of the meteorite - equally.  Longclaw definitely seems a John the Baptist sword to me with its moonstone pommel and black V-steel but I'm not sure moonstone is the stone we're looking for.  Something forged made of both Dawn meteorite and V-steel meteorite might be the ticket.

                 

#453 Sly Wren                    

Posted 07 October 2015 - 10:41 PM

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

The gemstone eyed kings holding pale fire swords from danys miscarriage/wake the dragon dream in AGoT is what makes me think Dawn is the last sword from the G.E., that or Dawn is absolutely singular, and they were previous SotM. Either way Dawn is from that ancient Empire of the Dawn, possibly as the only sword ever like it.
The Empire is even named for it. Which can also make sense of why the Valyrians tried to put spells in their steel, they were trying to make a sword like Dawn which was lost to them during the betrayal. I could see it either way.

I think they were either trying to re-create a forging process or a single magical sword that was lost to them, either would require some type of magic. The spells are important to whatever process they used to make V.S. especially if there was only the one Sword like Dawn in history, which leaves me totally on the fence of many or just one white sword.

Okay--I've got a few minutes to hopefully get caught up.

Works for me--especially that Dawn is singular. Dany's vision could be read either way--the emperors had multiple swords or one sword passed down. But Dawn is the only one mentioned. And, as far as I remember, no one talks about other swords like Dawn. Seems like it is unique--pending more information.

Which would also explain why someone might want to counterfeit it. So, I lean more towards "dark process to try to re-create" vs. "took existing swords and turned them." Though we may be seeing a "turning" process with Oathkeeper. So--not sure yet either.

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

I don't think the trees subsist entirely on blood, but I don't think they mind getting a taste either. When Catelyn first describes Ned's gods she calls them nameless, faceless gods of the forest, the corruption of the weirs may have begun with the carving of faces.

I just thought it was interesting, it is kind of close to tying many things together though. I was reading ACoK when Osha said the Comet meant Blood and Fire, and old Nan smells the comet and says it means Dragons. These things coupled with Targ colors and words and Blackfyre made me compare and contrast all the colors and what they may represent. If Dragons are Blood and Fire represented by Red and Black, then the opposite colors of White and Blue represent the Others. That in conjunction of the opposing colors of the two trees made me think I may be onto something, but only George knows why for sure, these are all guesses still.

1. Agree on the trees--there was speculation on Heresy early on whether the weirwoods had been "turned" with blood sacrifices. Or if that is their natural state. Given the way Martin portrays blood magic (and Jon's aversion to it), seems like the "they are turned/used" for blood magic argument at least has some validity.

2. Yes--the colors interest me, too. I'm still not sure what to do with all of it. And the black and white trees--something is up with that. Though I'm not sure what.

Brianpowers, on 06 Oct 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

BTW, this has been a wonderful thread to read through and throw ideas around in.
Absolutely enjoyable in every way, from subject matter, to the fantastic thoughts that have been introduced, and quite respectful of opposing ideas, or any ideas, and has stayed pretty much on topic, or topic adjacent at least.

Thank you Sly Wren for starting this fantastic discussion.

Cheers!!!

        

#454 Sly Wren                    

Posted 07 October 2015 - 10:58 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

I'm of two minds on this myself but it did seem like "seeing" in some way when Robb and Graywind walked in.  I also think something might be happening with Sweetrobin - his headaches, his insistence that his dreams are not just dreams - and nobody will listen to him, kind of like how Luwin wouldn't listen to Bran.  With "magic in he air", or at the hinges, there might be some transformations taking place.  If as I suspect, freshwater and earth are the Children's song, and we already have ice and fire songs, shouldn't there be songs of the sea and songs of the air?  I dont know - I'm just speculating, But Theon seems to hear Bran at one point, and it's interesting it should be Theon, though there was a godswood there.  Still, Bran is a fisher king figure too, very connected to water through the Tullys - it seems right somehow that Theon might be more receptive to him.  Just throwin' it out there.

All fair. And, as was pointed out elsewhere, Bran has a weirwood headboard at Winterfell. If Theon is sleeping in Ned's room--would makes sense that the Lord of Winterfell would have a weirwood headboard if the second son has one. So, Theon could be tying into something. I'm just not sold.

Had not thought on Sweetrobin--need to go back and look at that. Any chance it could be like Shireen's dreams of being eaten by a dragon? 

And I agree on Theon's hearing Bran--but those circumstances are rather different. Theon's worse fears have been realized. And then some. And then hears Bran in his crazy state (Theon's state, not Bran's). And I'm not even sure Martin will ever really explain it, one way or another.

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

 I just read the chapter with Sweetrobin snuggling up to her (ew), asking are you my mother now?  And she replies I guess I am.  I heard on another thread that Elio/Linda say people are going to be very surprised by something she does.  I hope she doesn't inadvertently, or in collaboration with Petyr, kill him with that sleeping stuff. I think that would shock just about everybody, whether you're pro Sansa getting her groove back or not.  Worst thing I could think of, don't mind me!  I've always rooted for Sansa to become the next (idealized) Queen Elizabeth I (who spent her early years in a very similar situation and emerged the stronger for it), but while she seems to make steps towards it, she also seems to take steps backwards so I'm not seeing it yet in the books, and I think the shows might be taking her in a different direction from George just by him naming her Alayne in the sections.  Kind of ominous. 

Yes--lots of speculation on the "controversial" Sansa chapter. If I remember right, they modified the statement by saying it would be a surprise, going against fan theories, or something (I could be completely wrong on this). My personal opinion: Sansa's going to start hearing more than just "whispers on the wind" as she has been at the Eyrie. And reconnecting with Lady. And thus her family--going North vs. ruling the south. That's my crackpot--Sansa comes alive through faith at dawn--rather like Jon. He sees the Sword. She builds Winterfell--instinctively.

So, not sure if Sweetrobin's getting out alive. But would be very surprised if Sansa does him in. Still, Martin has surprised me before.

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

 Yes, that's how I read it too - a bit of a reversal because of meshing myths. This is a different kind of Hell than the underworld the Starks inhabit or represent I think.   I am going back in Feast to read Brienne's story line again, just her, because I think we literally see her travel through Hel to the heart of it, a stone heart in place of a mother's heart.  Throughout she meets people who say they are descended from lords or hands or kings in the past from tavern wenches to outlaws - the ghosts of the past hanging heavy here.  Ghosts of the dead everywhere in memory and the land itself, juxtaposed with real dead people.  The first reference is really to Dontos the fool, who we learn is the last of his line, all the Darklyns and Hollards having been horribly obliterated after Duskendale.  Hollards were the Hands, the stewards and master-at-arms, hereditarily officed and related to the Darklyns, who were once kings.  Then we get a list of bastard lines, then kings again, all of them poor people, bastards, outlaws now.  The ending characters though are the critical ones - she visits the Quiet Isle, where not only the Hound is a Kingsguard, formerly Joffrey's right-hand man, but also as I say someone who might have been Rhaegar's right hand man and former Kingsguard, mirroring Dontos at the beginning of the journey.  Then they run into Gendry, who if his father had legitimized him - and Robert may have if he knew of the Lannister bastards - would be the rightful king right now.  But he worships Rh'llor!  And then that hellhound scene with Biter - gruesome - and Brienne is in literal hell with her face eaten up now as badly as the Hound's, and then she meets the Queen of Hell herself.  I wasn't looking for any of this when I first read it, or even lately on my second read, so I'm just pulling in what I remember, but there is a pattern there I believe, and I don't think I will see it clearly until I close read and look at it as a whole. Riding into the whole mess is Jaime, another Kingsguard, but also Kingslayer, father of two kings, to save or be killed by Brienne, a Kingsguard herself (to Renly).  Something more than I've seen so far - the underworld, the inversion, the Kingsguard replication, the wasteland, kings to commoners - is being said here.

Nice! I agree--the Riverlands is a hell, not just an underworld. sweetsunray's case is solid on this. As is yours.

And Brienne's journey--any time I think "journey through hell" I think of Dante. Which I'm not at all sure applies. Really can't see Pod as Virgil. But a quest through hell--my mythology section in my brain is going blank. But Brienne's is not a regular quest. And she's working with a "darkened" sword. Am wondering it what ends hell and gets her out is connected to using that sword. Which reminds me of Nissa Nissa--only inverted. Killing Cat to end it all--and even save Cat from her current state. Once Cat has completed her role. Only way out would be death. Deliverance from hell. Maybe, maybe. 

        

#455 Sly Wren

Posted 07 October 2015 - 11:03 PM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

I'm beginning to think that the original Night's Watch - founded before the Wall was built - might have been the Order of the Green Hand or something like it.  I had told you that Moat Cailin - which has the Drunkard's Tower, the Children's Tower, and the Gatehouse Tower - is paralleled by the three carved "watchers", the trees recently carved by wildlings that Jon sees in sequence.  I think the Drunkard's Tower (Ash) is the Hand's Tower, and the Gatehouse Tower (associated with the furious oak tree) - vigilance - might be the Hightowers.  What is a hand in terms of a king?  It's his right hand man, the one that holds a pen or a sword.  What's a left-hand man for a king - the one who holds the shield (and moreover left is also bar sinister works in secret? just as the Hightowers did with the Targs leading to the Dance, just as Leyton and his daughter are holed up in the Hightower working on something sinister, secret right now? guard the realms of mean, the NW vow - the shield in the darkness?)     

The Walls plural - Moat Cailin could well be a second set of walls for the Long Night if the Others reached that far - or against fire or sea people.  Heck I don't know, but will keep in the back of my head.

1. Agree re: Moat Cailin. Early Heresy threads worked on this quite a bit--I'm not up to snuff on it. But the idea that Calin and the Hightower were "walls"--makes very good sense to me.

2. Am liking this idea of the hands of the king. Yes--the right hand of a ruler would be his writer (*cough* Sam *cough*). And the shield--the faithful Watch on the Wall? or Walls? That had been my interp. But the idea that the Hightowers could have been up to long-term subversion of the Targs, based on what they knew in their Oldtown libraries--has possibilities.

Complete crackpot--if the shield is the left hand--Arya's left-handed. With a sword. And heavy-duty lessons in sneakiness. 

 

#456 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 07 October 2015 - 11:40 PM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

1. Agree re: Moat Cailin. Early Heresy threads worked on this quite a bit--I'm not up to snuff on it. But the idea that Calin and the Hightower were "walls"--makes very good sense to me.

2. Am liking this idea of the hands of the king. Yes--the right hand of a ruler would be his writer (*cough* Sam *cough*). And the shield--the faithful Watch on the Wall? or Walls? That had been my interp. But the idea that the Hightowers could have been up to long-term subversion of the Targs, based on what they knew in their Oldtown libraries--has possibilities.

Complete crackpot--if the shield is the left hand--Arya's left-handed. With a sword. And heavy-duty lessons in sneakiness. 

Love it!  That could be it!

        

#457 Lady Dyanna             

Posted 07 October 2015 - 11:54 PM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 9:58 PM, said:

All fair. And, as was pointed out elsewhere, Bran has a weirwood headboard at Winterfell. If Theon is sleeping in Ned's room--would makes sense that the Lord of Winterfell would have a weirwood headboard if the second son has one. So, Theon could be tying into something. I'm just not sold.
 
Had not thought on Sweetrobin--need to go back and look at that. Any chance it could be like Shireen's dreams of being eaten by a dragon?

I'm not sure about dragon dreams, but don't forget, Sweet Robin does sit on a weirwood throne in the Eyrie's high hall. 

Quote

And I agree on Theon's hearing Bran--but those circumstances are rather different. Theon's worse fears have been realized. And then some. And then hears Bran in his crazy state (Theon's state, not Bran's). And I'm not even sure Martin will ever really explain it, one way or another.

This is one of the few things that I disagree with you about. I really don't think that Theon has the knowledge base to see all of the things he does see in that dream. Especially when you take into account his later dream of being chased by the hellhounds, it just feels to me like there's more to it than just guilt. Not that I can point to anything specific to back this up, but if I find it I'll let you know. 

Quote

Yes--lots of speculation on the "controversial" Sansa chapter. If I remember right, they modified the statement by saying it would be a surprise, going against fan theories, or something (I could be completely wrong on this). My personal opinion: Sansa's going to start hearing more than just "whispers on the wind" as she has been at the Eyrie. And reconnecting with Lady. And thus her family--going North vs. ruling the south. That's my crackpot--Sansa comes alive through faith at dawn--rather like Jon. He sees the Sword. She builds Winterfell--instinctively.

I thought that the controversial chapter was the sample chapter that was most recently released? I completely agree that Sansa will be heading North. Most likely to begin to rebuild Winterfell with help from LF. I almost wonder if she will end up taking out LF while there? Possibly in front of Sweet Robin after he interrupts LF trying to take advantage of her? 

Quote

So, not sure if Sweetrobin's getting out alive. But would be very surprised if Sansa does him in. Still, Martin has surprised me before.

I'm not sure of his longevity, but I think that he might just have more of a role to play. TBD.

        

#458 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:14 AM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 9:58 PM, said:

All fair. And, as was pointed out elsewhere, Bran has a weirwood headboard at Winterfell. If Theon is sleeping in Ned's room--would makes sense that the Lord of Winterfell would have a weirwood headboard if the second son has one. So, Theon could be tying into something. I'm just not sold.

Had not thought on Sweetrobin--need to go back and look at that. Any chance it could be like Shireen's dreams of being eaten by a dragon? 

And I agree on Theon's hearing Bran--but those circumstances are rather different. Theon's worse fears have been realized. And then some. And then hears Bran in his crazy state (Theon's state, not Bran's). And I'm not even sure Martin will ever really explain it, one way or another.

Yes--lots of speculation on the "controversial" Sansa chapter. If I remember right, they modified the statement by saying it would be a surprise, going against fan theories, or something (I could be completely wrong on this). My personal opinion: Sansa's going to start hearing more than just "whispers on the wind" as she has been at the Eyrie. And reconnecting with Lady. And thus her family--going North vs. ruling the south. That's my crackpot--Sansa comes alive through faith at dawn--rather like Jon. He sees the Sword. She builds Winterfell--instinctively.

So, not sure if Sweetrobin's getting out alive. But would be very surprised if Sansa does him in. Still, Martin has surprised me before.

Nice! I agree--the Riverlands is a hell, not just an underworld. sweetsunray's case is solid on this. As is yours.

And Brienne's journey--any time I think "journey through hell" I think of Dante. Which I'm not at all sure applies. Really can't see Pod as Virgil. But a quest through hell--my mythology section in my brain is going blank. But Brienne's is not a regular quest. And she's working with a "darkened" sword. Am wondering it what ends hell and gets her out is connected to using that sword. Which reminds me of Nissa Nissa--only inverted. Killing Cat to end it all--and even save Cat from her current state. Once Cat has completed her role. Only way out would be death. Deliverance from hell. Maybe, maybe. 

I'm kind of wondering now, per my last post, if Dawn has to break, and get resoldered with Oathkeeper.  Oathkeeper does have a remnant of Ned in it possibly.  It also might collect Jaime's "remnant" if he gives his life willingly to Brienne at Stoneheart's (which I will hate - it is too soon for Jaime to die!). We then have both the light and dark side of the moon.

 

#459 Lady Barbrey

Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:03 AM

sweetsunray, on 07 Oct 2015 - 2:54 PM, said:

Not saying that every prediction of Cantuse will be correct, or that I agree with his entire scenario or all his premisses and assumptions, but in a nutshell the theory is as follows:

Stannis will win the battle of ice by using the blizzard to his own advantage. Freys might have a crude map, but that can be used to misdirect the Freys. Village where Stannis has been staying is in between 2 ice lakes, one with a giant weirwood in the middle of the lake. Freys know where the village is supposed to be situated, and they'd know the village has a tower with a beacon. In a blizzard they'd go for the beacon. But if Stannis arranges for a "false" beacon from the island in the middle of the big ice lake, and place his men and the Northerners so that it appears the village is actually where the ice lake is, Stannis can lure the Freys onto the lake. Meanwhile he can have catapults on the actual land bridge, that could smash the ice lake at the appropriate signal (a lake that already has plenty of fishing holes around the island). Result: van and main of the eager Freys led by Ser Stupid (who's angry on top of it) will drown in the ice lake. It would be easy for Stannis and the Northerners with him to take the rear with the baggage train. He doesn't even need the Manderlys to attack the Freys. Would help though for the added confusion. You can disagree on the details of Cantuse's night lamp theory - who will be sacrificed, whether he will light up lightbringer as the signal and blind the Freys (that's details...fun, well thought out, but detail)

Snip

I love the Night's Lamp theory - it's like an Agincourt of the snow only better!  I agree about being skeptical about some of the people inside.  I am so into the main battle on the ice happening though.

        

#460 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:10 AM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 9:58 PM, said:

All fair. And, as was pointed out elsewhere, Bran has a weirwood headboard at Winterfell. If Theon is sleeping in Ned's room--would makes sense that the Lord of Winterfell would have a weirwood headboard if the second son has one. So, Theon could be tying into something. I'm just not sold.

Had not thought on Sweetrobin--need to go back and look at that. Any chance it could be like Shireen's dreams of being eaten by a dragon? 

And I agree on Theon's hearing Bran--but those circumstances are rather different. Theon's worse fears have been realized. And then some. And then hears Bran in his crazy state (Theon's state, not Bran's). And I'm not even sure Martin will ever really explain it, one way or another.

Yes--lots of speculation on the "controversial" Sansa chapter. If I remember right, they modified the statement by saying it would be a surprise, going against fan theories, or something (I could be completely wrong on this). My personal opinion: Sansa's going to start hearing more than just "whispers on the wind" as she has been at the Eyrie. And reconnecting with Lady. And thus her family--going North vs. ruling the south. That's my crackpot--Sansa comes alive through faith at dawn--rather like Jon. He sees the Sword. She builds Winterfell--instinctively.

So, not sure if Sweetrobin's getting out alive. But would be very surprised if Sansa does him in. Still, Martin has surprised me before.

Nice! I agree--the Riverlands is a hell, not just an underworld. sweetsunray's case is solid on this. As is yours.

And Brienne's journey--any time I think "journey through hell" I think of Dante. Which I'm not at all sure applies. Really can't see Pod as Virgil. But a quest through hell--my mythology section in my brain is going blank. But Brienne's is not a regular quest. And she's working with a "darkened" sword. Am wondering it what ends hell and gets her out is connected to using that sword. Which reminds me of Nissa Nissa--only inverted. Killing Cat to end it all--and even save Cat from her current state. Once Cat has completed her role. Only way out would be death. Deliverance from hell. Maybe, maybe. 

Yes could be like Dante but there are earlier versions of the underworld visit through hell.  That is how I see it, though.  It's been done a number of times in literature too, as metaphysical parallel during a real trek through a wasteland/hell/Hades.  And notice that Brienne does follow a number of guides on the visit.

461-467

#461 sweetsunray             

Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:25 AM

Sly Wren, on 07 Oct 2015 - 9:58 PM, said:

Nice! I agree--the Riverlands is a hell, not just an underworld. sweetsunray's case is solid on this. As is yours.

And Brienne's journey--any time I think "journey through hell" I think of Dante. Which I'm not at all sure applies. Really can't see Pod as Virgil. But a quest through hell--my mythology section in my brain is going blank. But Brienne's is not a regular quest. And she's working with a "darkened" sword. Am wondering it what ends hell and gets her out is connected to using that sword. Which reminds me of Nissa Nissa--only inverted. Killing Cat to end it all--and even save Cat from her current state. Once Cat has completed her role. Only way out would be death. Deliverance from hell. Maybe, maybe. 

Well, Lady Barbrey's observations on how the Riverlands are a "hell" and mine that the Riverlands are the Norse "hel"...The two words mean basically the same thing, don't they?

I love the idea of a Dante journey. I have the book; read it when I was 18 or something. Admittedly I loved the purgatory and hell stuff, but much less the heaven stuff (I kinda rushed through the end). Dante's Hell has 9 circles, with each circle growing worse. And Dante meets with ghost after ghost, lowborn and highborn, all telling him their "life story" in a way, and how they are being tortured for their sins. Dante's eventual aim is to see his Beatrice again, the woman he loved, the perfect chaste maiden. Brienne goes out searching for Sansa,but it's also a story about her own issue of reconciling with her being a maiden (the wager on her maidenhead for example, Tarly telling her it's her own fault because a maiden has no place being part of an army). Her great love was Renly, and when she meets Gendry or is delirious afterwards, she believes he's Renly. BTW Dante's first encounter before Virgil appears is with a lion, a she-wolf and a leopard... This precedes the whole complete journey, and Brienne's journey in the RL is preceded with her journeying along with Cat (arguably a she-wolf) and then Jaime (a  lion).

It seems to me that George combined Inferno and Purgatoria into one journey for Brienne. There definitely are inferno like references and events, but also intermingled with sins and examples of purgatory.

Before entering Hell, Dante meets with the uncommitted - people who did neither evil nor good. It reminds me of those 2 hedge knights. They certainly aren't evil, but chivalrous men, but it's definitely hinted that all their "great deeds" are just hot air, big fish stories. Hedge knights are uncommitted, because they're not sworn to anybody... they just wander where there's adventure to be had. We see this in how they first valiantly say they'll protect her and accompany her, but the following day basically do the same with the merchant. They're kind good-hearted gentlemen, but their choices lead to a fruitless life which doesn't aid either evil or good.

As Dante goes from circle to circle we meet knights, barons, popes, plenty of historical figures and their punishments for their sins, hundreds of characters really... It's basically a historical telling of several areas and city-states in Italy. We see that reflected in the telling of Duskendale for example and other places, but also the great amount of people she talks to, who always tell a tidbit about the history of the land or their own. The first circle is limbo for the unbaptized good souls who died before Jesus Christ was born and sacrificed, and therefore could not know him... here Dante meets most of the classic heroes and intellectuals (Greek and Roman). That's hard to pull off for George of course, but limbo is a castle with gates and its guardian who orders which damned soul goes to which of the other 8 circles of hell tries to prevent Dante from traveling further, but is rebuked by Virgil and allowed to continue. This is not unlike Maidenpool and the meeting with Tarly and the fight at the gates, and there's also the commander of Tarly's van dispensing harsh justice. So, Maidenpool sounds like Brienne's limbo. Tarly is also a very proud man. He stopped the game of the knights about Brienne's maidenhead at Highgarden not so much because it was the right thing to do, but more out of some pride about being male, and he used it to "humble" Brienne at that time.

The first sin circle (and thus the 2nd of the 9) is that of lust, and on her way to Cracklaw Point, Brienne remembers how she punished the knights who betted on getting her maidenhead. Then follows gluttony (Shagwell?), and greed, and violence... those are covered by the horrible stories and acts done by Rorge at Saltpans and how broken men can do horrible deeds in their anger of seeing their firends lost. But there also hints of the second terrace of purgatory - the envious versus the generous. Meribald is obviously a Virgil, as the ultimate guide, but he's also unlearned (Virgil was a poet) and can't read. While Virgil can be a halfway guide into Purgatory, he's forever bound to Limbo. Meribald is now leading a life of generosity and meekness, where before he used his position as a septon to make women have sex with him, after he joined the faith as a broken man of the war of the Ninepenny kings. So there's the lustful, but also sloth (those who do not aim for finding true love), glutonous clergymen, etc. The Quiet Isle is definitely Purgatory for those seeking their way back to peace of their soul: the third terrace of the wrathfull needing to learn meekness. Elder Brother's sin might be the "covetous", coveting what he couldn't have (it's definitely the sin of Ser Bonifer Hasty in Jaime's arc). The covetous loved "good things", but loved them excessiely or in a disordered way. Sandor would definitely fit the wrathful-meekness stuff, as well as the covetous. For the Inferno inner circles - there's heresy (Gendry refusing to pray? Who regards who as heretics here btw?), the violent (hanged with salt rocks in their mouth for example, the encounter with Rorge and Biter), and finally the 9th circle of the "treacherous", which is exactly what Brienne is accused of by LS - betraying her oath to Cat and having turned her coat for Jaime. And there's also this interesting bit: Satan is locked in ice at the center of hell. It's a "beast" with 3 faces, "chewing" the worst of the traitors (Brutus and Cassius and Judas). Brienne's face is being eaten by Biter.

ETA: the treacherous are punished in 4 rounds, depending on the treason  (in the order from least to heaviest)- (1) kinship betrayers (2) political betrayers (3) guest betrayers (ding! ding! Freys!) and (4) betrayers of their liege lords (ding!ding! Brienne, no matter what choice she makes) (and 5 is betrayal to God, but since there are numerous religions as well as no actual gods, George made 4 the worst betrayal)

So, yeah, I'd say Brienne's voyage definitely has a lot of Dante Inferno and Purgatory stuff in it.

        

#462 Lady Barbrey

Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:26 AM

Lady Dyanna, on 07 Oct 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

 
I'm not sure about dragon dreams, but don't forget, Sweet Robin does sit on a weirwood throne in the Eyrie's high hall. 
This is one of the few things that I disagree with you about. I really don't think that Theon has the knowledge base to see all of the things he does see in that dream. Especially when you take into account his later dream of being chased by the hellhounds, it just feels to me like there's more to it than just guilt. Not that I can point to anything specific to back this up, but if I find it I'll let you know. 

I thought that the controversial chapter was the sample chapter that was most recently released? I completely agree that Sansa will be heading North. Most likely to begin to rebuild Winterfell with help from LF. I almost wonder if she will end up taking out LF while there? Possibly in front of Sweet Robin after he interrupts LF trying to take advantage of her? 
I'm not sure of his longevity, but I think that he might just have more of a role to play. TBD.

Yes you're right about the throne.  Also, Martin's choice to give epilepsy to Robin is interesting.  Why?  To show him as weak? It seems unlikely.  The other characters don't seem to feel like it is demons inhabiting him (a common belief in the middle ages); the nobility usually had different ideas on the matter believing it showed divine prophetic powers and intelligence.  But we know now that it is as a result of electrical impulses - lightening.  

So epilepsy=lightening, divine prophetic powers.  This is sky god stuff.  Or storm.  

Or it could just be epilepsy.  Still, the fact he is having these dreams that he insists are more than dreams, and blinding headaches.

Same as his fear of moles - no idea on that one!  But what a weird phobia. 

It just seems like something's up with him.

Also Theon, I agree.

Was the controversial thing her latest chapter?  I read the chapter some time ago - the one with Harry the Heir right? - but just read the bit about a story twist for her recently so had assumed it hadn't happened yet.  

                 

#463 Lady Barbrey            

Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:36 AM

sweetsunray, on 08 Oct 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Well, Lady Barbrey's observations on how the Riverlands are a "hell" and mine that the Riverlands are the Norse "hel"...The two words mean basically the same thing, don't they?

I love the idea of a Dante journey. I have the book; read it when I was 18 or something. Admittedly I loved the purgatory and hell stuff, but much less the heaven stuff (I kinda rushed through the end). Dante's Hell has 9 circles, with each circle growing worse. And Dante meets with ghost after ghost, lowborn and highborn, all telling him their "life story" in a way, and how they are being tortured for their sins. Dante's eventual aim is to see his Beatrice again, the woman he loved, the perfect chaste maiden. Brienne goes out searching for Sansa,but it's also a story about her own issue of reconciling with her being a maiden (the wager on her maidenhead for example, Tarly telling her it's her own fault because a maiden has no place being part of an army). Her great love was Renly, and when she meets Gendry or is delirious afterwards, she believes he's Renly. BTW Dante's first encounter before Virgil appears is with a lion, a she-wolf and a leopard... This precedes the whole complete journey, and Brienne's journey in the RL is preceded with her journeying along with Cat (arguably a she-wolf) and then Jaime (a  lion).

It seems to me that George combined Inferno and Purgatoria into one journey for Brienne. There definitely are inferno like references and events, but also intermingled with sins and examples of purgatory.

Before entering Hell, Dante meets with the uncommitted - people who did neither evil nor good. It reminds me of those 2 hedge knights. They certainly aren't evil, but chivalrous men, but it's definitely hinted that all their "great deeds" are just hot air, big fish stories. Hedge knights are uncommitted, because they're not sworn to anybody... they just wander where there's adventure to be had. We see this in how they first valiantly say they'll protect her and accompany her, but the following day basically do the same with the merchant. They're kind good-hearted gentlemen, but their choices lead to a fruitless life which doesn't aid either evil or good.

As Dante goes from circle to circle we meet knights, barons, popes, plenty of historical figures and their punishments for their sins, hundreds of characters really... It's basically a historical telling of several areas and city-states in Italy. We see that reflected in the telling of Duskendale for example and other places, but also the great amount of people she talks to, who always tell a tidbit about the history of the land or their own. The first circle is limbo for the unbaptized good souls who died before Jesus Christ was born and sacrificed, and therefore could not know him... here Dante meets most of the classic heroes and intellectuals (Greek and Roman). That's hard to pull off for George of course, but limbo is a castle with gates and its guardian who orders which damned soul goes to which of the other 8 circles of hell tries to prevent Dante from traveling further, but is rebuked by Virgil and allowed to continue. This is not unlike Maidenpool and the meeting with Tarly and the fight at the gates, and there's also the commander of Tarly's van dispensing harsh justice. So, Maidenpool sounds like Brienne's limbo. Tarly is also a very proud man. He stopped the game of the knights about Brienne's maidenhead at Highgarden not so much because it was the right thing to do, but more out of some pride about being male, and he used it to "humble" Brienne at that time.

The first sin circle (and thus the 2nd of the 9) is that of lust, and on her way to Cracklaw Point, Brienne remembers how she punished the knights who betted on getting her maidenhead. Then follows gluttony (Shagwell?), and greed, and violence... those are covered by the horrible stories and acts done by Rorge at Saltpans and how broken men can do horrible deeds in their anger of seeing their firends lost. But there also hints of the second terrace of purgatory - the envious versus the generous. Meribald is obviously a Virgil, as the ultimate guide, but he's also unlearned (Virgil was a poet) and can't read. While Virgil can be a halfway guide into Purgatory, he's forever bound to Limbo. Meribald is now leading a life of generosity and meekness, where before he used his position as a septon to make women have sex with him, after he joined the faith as a broken man of the war of the Ninepenny kings. So there's the lustful, but also sloth (those who do not aim for finding true love), glutonous clergymen, etc. The Quiet Isle is definitely Purgatory for those seeking their way back to peace of their soul: the third terrace of the wrathfull needing to learn meekness. Elder Brother's sin might be the "covetous", coveting what he couldn't have (it's definitely the sin of Ser Bonifer Hasty in Jaime's arc). The covetous loved "good things", but loved them excessiely or in a disordered way. Sandor would definitely fit the wrathful-meekness stuff, as well as the covetous. For the Inferno inner circles - there's heresy (Gendry refusing to pray? Who regards who as heretics here btw?), the violent (hanged with salt rocks in their mouth for example, the encounter with Rorge and Biter), and finally the 9th circle of the "treacherous", which is exactly what Brienne is accused of by LS - betraying her oath to Cat and having turned her coat for Jaime. And there's also this interesting bit: Satan is locked in ice at the center of hell. It's a "beast" with 3 faces, "chewing" the worst of the traitors (Brutus and Cassius and Judas). Brienne's face is being eaten by Biter.

So, yeah, I'd say Brienne's voyage definitely has a lot of Dante Inferno and Purgatory stuff in it.

Oh well done!  Cheers!

        

#464 Sly Wren                    

Posted 08 October 2015 - 09:27 AM

Lady Dyanna, on 07 Oct 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

 
I'm not sure about dragon dreams, but don't forget, Sweet Robin does sit on a weirwood throne in the Eyrie's high hall. 

OOH! Good point. Like Bran's weirwood headboard? Hmm. Need to re-read some of the Sweetrobin stuff. My list of time-extending needs keeps growing.

Lady Dyanna, on 07 Oct 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

This is one of the few things that I disagree with you about. I really don't think that Theon has the knowledge base to see all of the things he does see in that dream. Especially when you take into account his later dream of being chased by the hellhounds, it just feels to me like there's more to it than just guilt. Not that I can point to anything specific to back this up, but if I find it I'll let you know. 

All fair. And, as I said, this isn't something I'm at all ready to throw down on. Too much potential for ambiguity. Will have to see how it played out.

Lady Dyanna, on 07 Oct 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

I thought that the controversial chapter was the sample chapter that was most recently released? I completely agree that Sansa will be heading North. Most likely to begin to rebuild Winterfell with help from LF. I almost wonder if she will end up taking out LF while there? Possibly in front of Sweet Robin after he interrupts LF trying to take advantage of her? 

I'm not sure of his longevity, but I think that he might just have more of a role to play. TBD.

No--I think the chapter is one Ran or someone said they had read (I'm terrible with facts in the case).

And agree on Winterfell and Sansa--with Littlefinger. It's the scenario my head keeps coming back to. Though the specifics elude me. Your scenario works. And I would love it if she somehow ends up with his money. . . to rebuild the North. Really, it's only fair.

I hope Sweetrobin has more of a role than just "dead kid." He reminds me of Shireen a bit--without the cuddliness. She's just a sweet innocent kid surrounded by fanatics and fools. I've been worried about her since we first meet her. Sweetrobin's a bit more bloodthirsty. But surrounded by schemers, too. Worried.

        

#465 Sly Wren                    

Posted 08 October 2015 - 09:34 AM

Lady Barbrey, on 07 Oct 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

I'm kind of wondering now, per my last post, if Dawn has to break, and get resoldered with Oathkeeper.  Oathkeeper does have a remnant of Ned in it possibly.  It also might collect Jaime's "remnant" if he gives his life willingly to Brienne at Stoneheart's (which I will hate - it is too soon for Jaime to die!). We then have both the light and dark side of the moon.

Maybe--but I just keep thinking of Dany's vision. Seems like the white sword needs to stay white: "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south." That's part of the hope. It's ancient. And true. And whole--unlike the other swords. Maybe.

Or, per LmL, I might be too hung up on "purity."

Just seems like if Oathkeeper would untied with any sword, it would be with Widow's Wail. To undo to the split. End the name--end the "Widow's Wail." And reconstitute Ice. And could see Brienne's having to kill Jaime to do this. . . Maybe.

Lady Barbrey, on 08 Oct 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

Yes could be like Dante but there are earlier versions of the underworld visit through hell.  That is how I see it, though.  It's been done a number of times in literature too, as metaphysical parallel during a real trek through a wasteland/hell/Hades.  And notice that Brienne does follow a number of guides on the visit. 

True--and has to complete tasks. So, not a "tour of Hell" (worst vacation ever) like Dante takes with Virgil. But a quest through hell. To end "hell on earth?" To restore her own kind of balance? The Maid of Tarth from Evenfall--restoring the balance in the Riverlands?

        

#466 Sly Wren                    

Posted 08 October 2015 - 09:40 AM

sweetsunray, on 08 Oct 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Well, Lady Barbrey's observations on how the Riverlands are a "hell" and mine that the Riverlands are the Norse "hel"...The two words mean basically the same thing, don't they?

I love the idea of a Dante journey. I have the book; read it when I was 18 or something. Admittedly I loved the purgatory and hell stuff, but much less the heaven stuff (I kinda rushed through the end). Dante's Hell has 9 circles, with each circle growing worse. And Dante meets with ghost after ghost, lowborn and highborn, all telling him their "life story" in a way, and how they are being tortured for their sins. Dante's eventual aim is to see his Beatrice again, the woman he loved, the perfect chaste maiden. Brienne goes out searching for Sansa,but it's also a story about her own issue of reconciling with her being a maiden (the wager on her maidenhead for example, Tarly telling her it's her own fault because a maiden has no place being part of an army). Her great love was Renly, and when she meets Gendry or is delirious afterwards, she believes he's Renly. BTW Dante's first encounter before Virgil appears is with a lion, a she-wolf and a leopard... This precedes the whole complete journey, and Brienne's journey in the RL is preceded with her journeying along with Cat (arguably a she-wolf) and then Jaime (a  lion).

Yes--the Inferno really is the most fun of the Commedia. Possibly because it's so horrible. 

Had forgotten that part of the Commedia is teaching Dante how to get to Paradiso. Where the untouchable Beatrice is. Agreed that there are traces of that with Brienne--seeking the unfindable Sansa. But also--seeking the love/approval/redemption via Renly. And perhaps even of Jaime. Untouchable loves.

sweetsunray, on 08 Oct 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Spoiler

Am liking this very much. And the twist, of course, is that Brienne could be part of ending the hell on earth. Dante cannot interfere in the Inferno. But Brienne can. Can perform some acts of "rectifying" the situation. A question through hell with a fallen sword--to have power in hell in part because of her Maid status (and all the history and baggage that go with it). A lot of power there for Madame Brienne.

        

#467 Sly Wren                    

Posted 08 October 2015 - 10:07 AM

Okay--I'm pretty sure this thread will be closed soon.

But the conversation doesn't seem done. So, in what may be an act of hubris, I've opened a third thread here: http://asoiaf.wester...related-issues/

I'm holding off on a new OP until the forum transfer gets settled (fingers crossed and best wishes to Ran and Linda). So the new thread is just set up to continue straight from this one.

So, hope to see you over there--just continue the conversation and all should be well. Cheers!!![/spoiler

[Sly Wren]

Okay--that's done! 

So, we were in the middle of #4. It and #3 had the same basic OP:

The BASIC premise: Jon Snow will be the next Sword of the Morning. This is key to his role in ending the Long Night. He will not be acting alone, but will be one of many players.

Continuing from previous threads: From-Death-to-Dawn-Jon-Will-Rise-and-the-Sword-of-the-Morning/

So far, this premise has raised a number of discussion topics, including (but not limited to):            --Types of swords and the role of Valyrian Steel

            --Evils of blood sacrifice and implications

            --The origins of Dawn; What is Dawn made from? How is Dawn bestowed on a Sword of the Morning?

            --What has Jon been learning and what does it mean to “rule?”

            --Logistics: How will Jon get Dawn, what will it do, how it plays into the rest of the story, etc.

            --The Great Empire of the Dawn and all the myths that go with that

            --Daynes and Starfall

            --How does Dany fit in?-Dany’s vision of the people with the White Sword(s).

            --What about the Ironborn?

            --Other Starks, Direwolves, Warging

            --The Role of the Night’s Watch and its Oath; The Black Gate, wells, spiral stairs, and underground passages

            --Dreams of the Underworld and the Winterfell Crypts. The underworld itself and the ways it can reveal information

            --Potential causes of the Long Night

            --Fairytales; The Sidhe; Nordic, Celtic, and various other real-world myths

            --Tolkien references

            --The “true” nature of Knights     

            --And of course the obvious question—does the basic premise have any validity?Further Reading on other Topics:

For discussions of the Great Empire of the Dawn, see Lady Barbery’s -god-emperors-in-westeros/

For straight-up discussion on the Underworld, see sweetsunray’s  the-chthonic-cycle/

And Kingmonkey’s: Eddard-in-Wonderland/

For discussion of Ice’s possible relationship to Dawn, see Voice of the First Men’s -how-ice-became-dawn/

For discussion on the Others’ swords, see DarkSister1001’s -the-fate-of-crasters-sons/

For comprehensive discussions of the origins of the empire and swords and everything else, see LmL’s series of essays: The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai 

-astronomy-of-planetos-fingerprints-of-the-dawn/

And for discussions of all things to do with the Watch, the Wall, and the North, see -heresy-100/

 

[Sly Wren]

My memory is shaky, but if I remember correctly, the last posts I saw before the switch suggested we were discussing:

Tycho Nestoris, Braavos, and the potential influence of the Braavosi's anti-slavery ideals on Westeros and the Wall.

The symbolism of the Blue Rose.

The nature of the trees.

Anything else you all can remember? 

Either way--dive on in with what you will!

[Lord Wraith]

My memory is shaky, but if I remember correctly, the last posts I saw before the switch suggested we were discussing:

Tycho Nestoris, Braavos, and the potential influence of the Braavosi's anti-slavery ideals on Westeros and the Wall.

The symbolism of the Blue Rose.

The nature of the trees.

Anything else you all can remember? 

Either way--dive on in with what you will!

Mostly spot on. Just missing  #teamabomination.

[sweetsunray]

Wow, great work Sly Wren!

Unfortunately I haven't saved the posts of the chthonic thread

I do have the article itself on my blog:

• chthonic cycle (intro)
• Persephone of Winterfell
• Cursed Souls of Eddard and Robert

Lady Barbrey's comments about Arion and Crazy Cat regarding the Fisher King in the thread led to insights on red stallion, horse parallel and tourney parallel foreshadowing in the books. At the time of writing those insights into an essay I also wrote more in depth about the Despoina connection, a subject Shadowcat Rivers also posted on in the thread a day or so before my publication of the essay on the blog: the trail of the Red Stallion (part 1)

If you don't mind I'll just add a list of topics that were discussed in there, to add them to the sandbox for the time being:

• I made a post about the War of Troy parallel, where Cersei kindof is a Clytaemnestra who kills her husband Agamemnon after taking his cousin for a lover (in Cersei's case her own cousin) who helps kill Agamemnon. Agamemnon's son revenges himself on Clytaemnestra (his own mother) with the aid his sister Elektra. Though not mentioned in that post, I'll mention it here. The murder on Elia's children reminds me of the murder on Andromache's son during the sack of Troy. Her son is thrown from the walls. Andromache was the loyal, dutiful wife to the Troyan crown prince Hector - the hero killed by Achilles.
• LmL and Crazy Cat were discussing black oil stones, heliotropes and the kaaba and Black Stone revered by muslims
• You and I and others discussed the lay-out of Winterfell, and how it is giant portal to all kinds of worlds
• Discussion on the Red Keep as a portal to the Underworld
• Bloodstones (cities or keeps built with the blood of men): Astapor, Red Keep, the Wall, ...
• foreshadowing on Sansa's arc: tourney joust/horse hints, the building of WF with snow in the godswood of the Eyrie
• Cat and later LS as a type of Demeter searching for her missing daughters, and acquiring avenging Fury elements, combined with the Norse Hel
• Riverlands as underworld

 

Recap on my last comments about Tycho - envoy, bluff poker, would have contact with keyholders and have keyholder info. There are 13 of them. I suggested 7 out of the 13 we should consider as actual keyholders: kindly man for FM, someone of the fixed staff of the Sealord's office (no matter who the actual Sealord is), someone of the Iron Bank, a Moonsinger, some type of harbor and fleet Admiral, some hig-up merchant of a merchant guild, a courtesan such as the Black Pearl. Moonsingers can prophesy and would be taken seriously. Already rescued Hardhome wildlings of the empounded Lys slaver ship could have given info on Others. And the keyholders know that Arya Stark is with the FM. Hence, their interest in Jon Snow (a Stark bastard), the Wall and Starks with regard the North. 

[sweetsunray]

Not sure, but IIRC, after the Dante stuff, we also talked about injured hands, and I brought up the armless/handless girl fairytale motif. Think I recall a comment about the "red hand" legend too, much later, but not sure.

And we discussed the possible impact of the prologue chapter of aGoT where the Others approach Waymar Royce who's description of hair and eyes would match that of Jon Snow, and the particular interest they have in Waymar's sword.

[Sly Wren]

Mostly spot on. Just missing  #teamabomination.

My shame overwhelms me. I plummet into despair.

Can't believe I forgot that--hopefully no one takes it as a tacit approval of blood sacrifice.

To be safe: #teamabomination.

[Sly Wren]

Wow, great work Sly Wren!

Unfortunately I haven't saved the posts of the chthonic thread

I do have the article itself on my blog:

• chthonic cycle (intro)
• Persephone of Winterfell
• Cursed Souls of Eddard and Robert

Lady Barbrey's comments about Arion and Crazy Cat regarding the Fisher King in the thread led to insights on red stallion, horse parallel and tourney parallel foreshadowing in the books. At the time of writing those insights into an essay I also wrote more in depth about the Despoina connection, a subject Shadowcat Rivers also posted on in the thread a day or so before my publication of the essay on the blog: the trail of the Red Stallion (part 1)

1. Not saving your posts proves you are sane. Congratulations!

I, however, am not so fortunate.  I'd said I do it, so I did it. But that was madness.

2. On the chthonic thread--is it on this forum at all or only on the blog? If only the blog--I'll change it in the "reference" list.

If you don't mind I'll just add a list of topics that were discussed in there, to add them to the sandbox for the time being:

• I made a post about the War of Troy parallel, where Cersei kindof is a Clytaemnestra who kills her husband Agamemnon after taking his cousin for a lover (in Cersei's case her own cousin) who helps kill Agamemnon. Agamemnon's son revenges himself on Clytaemnestra (his own mother) with the aid his sister Elektra. Though not mentioned in that post, I'll mention it here. The murder on Elia's children reminds me of the murder on Andromache's son during the sack of Troy. Her son is thrown from the walls. Andromache was the loyal, dutiful wife to the Troyan crown prince Hector - the hero killed by Achilles.
• LmL and Crazy Cat were discussing black oil stones, heliotropes and the kaaba and Black Stone revered by muslims
• You and I and others discussed the lay-out of Winterfell, and how it is giant portal to all kinds of worlds
• Discussion on the Red Keep as a portal to the Underworld
• Bloodstones (cities or keeps built with the blood of men): Astapor, Red Keep, the Wall, ...
• foreshadowing on Sansa's arc: tourney joust/horse hints, the building of WF with snow in the godswood of the Eyrie
• Cat and later LS as a type of Demeter searching for her missing daughters, and acquiring avenging Fury elements, combined with the Norse Hel
• Riverlands as underworld

Thanks!

Diving back in: on the Clytemnestra--fits Cersei and Elia symbolically. But also, unfortunately, Catelyn. Tells Ned to trust Littlefinger (an aspiring lover). And--BOOM! Am also wondering if it doesn't fit some of the later imagery applied to Troy's fall as being a fortunate fall in some ways--allows for the rise of the next nation. 

Ned's "fall" his a horror--but given the fact that the Wall has been dwindling since at least Queen Alysanne and thus being set up to fall--Ned's fall, starting with his coming to King's Landing, might have been necessary to get all of the Stark kids where they need to be in the coming war. 

And since we are doing greek myths--Cersei's creepy daydreams about licking Robert's children off of her fingers (blecch!) sorta screams Medea. But she's expecting Daddy the Lion to come save her, vs. Medea's daddy sending a chariot drawn by dragons. . . 

Recap on my last comments about Tycho - envoy, bluff poker, would have contact with keyholders and have keyholder info. There are 13 of them. I suggested 7 out of the 13 we should consider as actual keyholders: kindly man for FM, someone of the fixed staff of the Sealord's office (no matter who the actual Sealord is), someone of the Iron Bank, a Moonsinger, some type of harbor and fleet Admiral, some hig-up merchant of a merchant guild, a courtesan such as the Black Pearl. Moonsingers can prophesy and would be taken seriously. Already rescued Hardhome wildlings of the empounded Lys slaver ship could have given info on Others. And the keyholders know that Arya Stark is with the FM. Hence, their interest in Jon Snow (a Stark bastard), the Wall and Starks with regard the North. 

Excellent! And I agree--especially with the bolded. Giving Jon the loan for the Wall strictly on political means just doesn't make much sense. But the ideology, and the idea that they might know something more about the Wall and what's coming--that makes some sense. 

Plus--as I said on the lost thread, I know that focusing on purple can lead to craziness. But Tycho's purple hat and coat are highlighted--he brings up the purple harbor. If any of Lady Barbrey's speculation reL the Braavosi and the Amethyst Empress hold (which I think it might), then Tycho's coloring and locale might be a clue to his intent.

[Sly Wren]

Not sure, but IIRC, after the Dante stuff, we also talked about injured hands, and I brought up the armless/handless girl fairytale motif. Think I recall a comment about the "red hand" legend too, much later, but not sure.

And we discussed the possible impact of the prologue chapter of aGoT where the Others approach Waymar Royce who's description of hair and eyes would match that of Jon Snow, and the particular interest they have in Waymar's sword.

Okay--I remember the Waymar discussions, but the armless/handless girl? What was this?

Re: the Black Stones: If I remember right, you all were talking about ancient worship of faceless stones. Reminded me of (I think) Cat's statement that the Targaryens didn't recognize the laws of gods or men--something like that. 

Worshipping the faceless stones vs. connecting to ancestors and history through the trees. Or seeing god in the seven aspects of human life. Or--back to your underworld: going into the underworld to connect with ancestors helps one understand oneself. But the BSE's workshop of the faceless, inhuman stone. The Targs not recognizing the laws/connections of other people. That seems to be a recipe for horror in Martinlandia.

[Morrigan's Raven]

Glad to see that you made it unscathed!  

[Lord Wraith]

My shame overwhelms me. I plummet into despair.

Can't believe I forgot that--hopefully no one takes it as a tacit approval of blood sacrifice.

To be safe: #teamabomination.

Don't feel too bad  I don't automatically assume you had rejoined those who condone blood sacrifice.

#teamabomination

[LmL]

Glad to see #teamabomination is running strong!

Remember, I'm not only the founder of #teamabomination, I'm also a client.  

Some of the younger folks may not get the reference, but that's ok, just google "hair club for men."

 

[wolfmaid7]

Glad to see #teamabomination is running strong!

Remember, I'm not only the founder of #teamabomination, I'm also a client.  

Some of the younger folks may not get the reference, but that's ok, just google "hair club for men."

 

Har!!!!

[wolfmaid7]

By the way Sly Wren and others the first parentage essay is up on the Dance forum.

[Sly Wren]

Glad to see that you made it unscathed!  

Don't feel too bad  I don't automatically assume you had rejoined those who condone blood sacrifice.

#teamabomination

Perhaps you are too trusting, ser.

Glad to see #teamabomination is running strong!

Remember, I'm not only the founder of #teamabomination, I'm also a client.  

Some of the younger folks may not get the reference, but that's ok, just google "hair club for men."

"I can wash my own blood, swim with it, style it run my fingers through it--it's all my own blood! I didn't sacrifice anyone!"

By the way Sly Wren and others the first parentage essay is up on the Dance forum.

YAY!!! 

And congrats, wolfmaid7 and all of the essayists. The essays are fabulous.

[LmL]

 

"I can wash my own blood, swim with it, style it run my fingers through it--it's all my own blood! I didn't sacrifice anyone!"

DOOD you had me giggling like a schoolgirl over here with that...